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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Mr. ShinyUmbreon

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The way I see it, Marth and Lucina are almost Identical. If you can play marth, you can play Lucy. if you can play Lucy, you can play Marth. It's like Pit and Dark Pit. They have their advantages and disadvatages but overall, they're largely the same. But, I can see most people would go Marth, because he appears to have more potential, because of the more damage and kill potential kill power with tippers. So, If theoretically, a perfect marth and a perfect lucina both went to a tournament, the perfect Marth would get further because he has more reward from playing well than lucina.
 

Emblem Lord

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Sorry but if Lucina players master SHFF nair into fsmash confirms.....Marth might be obsolete.

A consistent kill confirm is a huge ****ing deal.

But that wont happen because Lucina players as a community seem to be lacking something Marth players have.

I noticed it very early in the games competitive life span.
 

PK Gaming

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Sorry but if Lucina players master SHFF nair into fsmash confirms.....Marth might be obsolete.

A consistent kill confirm is a huge ****ing deal.

But that wont happen because Lucina players as a community seem to be lacking something Marth players have.

I noticed it very early in the games competitive life span.
Confidence?

I don't blame them, considering the popular sentiment is that Lucina is a "lesser" Marth, and pretty much everyone buys into that notion.

Kind of hard to shake the stigma tbh. Hopefully that changes though; like you said, a consistent kill confirm is a big deal.
 
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Emblem Lord

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More like they are wrapped up in two things.

Trying to outdo Marth and Marth players which is a waste of time and energy. I mean honestly who gives a ****?

The next is that I notice they arent that competitive overall. In the early stages of the meta the Lucina forum was DOMINATED by pure fanboyism. Lucina forums seemed way more concerned about shipping her with diff FE chars in the social thread and gushing about Laura Bailey, then they were with actually advancing her meta and labbing the character.

And the ones that were competitive seemed intent on completely missing the mark in regards to how her tools should be used. Calling her a rushdown character and the like.
 

verbatim

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I really don't like hearing excuses about why a character gets the results that they do. Going in-between Marth and Lucina is incredibly simple compared to almost any other character in the game. If you really believe that this makes her better it's on you to demonstrate that in a competitive setting.
 

ElectricBlade

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Could someone link me the vods of Komorikiri playing Lucina? I'm very interested to see
 

Y2Kay

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I was wondering how you guys find the Mewtwo vs. Cloud matchup is? I was looking for a secondary to use so I don't have to Cloud ditto other players as it makes me extremely uncomfortable while playing,
Abadango cites it as Mewtwo's worst MU, and I agree with him.

It's still a doable MU though.
On the flip side Mew2King said it's Cloud's worst MU and is 0-2 in bracket against high level mewtwos.

And aba said not to take his MU chart too seriously but everyone keeps citing it. Jeez! @_@

:150:
 
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Starting to think that TRSK is almost too good... Feel free to yell at me for this, but at least hear me out before doing so.

Objectively analyzing just the foundation of the move, there are I don't even know how many confirms that can lead into it. The set-ups we're all familiar with include L.utilt (f3), L.dtilt (f2), and focus attack. Then there are the more abstract methods such as jab1 (f2) and nair (f4) which are a little trickier to pull off, but still great options nonetheless. I know dair can also be used situationally...or maybe it just links into L.utilt?

These are among the safest confirms in the game.

But if we look deeper into the move, you realize it's much better than just another kill move; The move itself is invincible f1-f6 and the hitbox is out f6. You aren't going to clank with this move, you aren't going to trade with this move, you aren't going to out prioritize this. You're either going to beat Ryu to the punch (no pun intended), or eat the Shoryuken.

But that's not what I'm getting at with this. The application here is incredible. I've seen and participated in situations where Ryu is being tech-chased- the aggressor reads Ryu's tech option but doesn't get the punish due to a buffered Shoryuken. Whatever option they chose (dash attack, Usmash, grab, etc.) is eaten up by the invincibility and they suffer a KO. Obviously if the pursuer had released the punish sooner Ryu would've received the punishment (when the tech-roll invincibility wears off) but the fact that he can turn such a disadvantageous state into a kill is something that doesn't sit well with me. There is no proper intervention here- be it a shield, spot-dodge or counter. The exchange is instantaneous.

A similar circumstance occurs on the ledge. Wake up Shoryu is such a good option. Any half-decent player won't allow it to happen, but in order to do so you essentially abandon a portion of stage control and permit Ryu back on the stage for free. Sure you can stand there on the edge in your shield, but what is that really going to do? Shielding on the edge is either a bait to be followed by a read, or literally telling your opponent, "I am intimidated and don't know what to do".

What should I talk about next? How it can be utilized as a combo breaker? How the aerial variant also kills at incredible percents? How easy it is to abuse when provided with the combination of platforms and 12 frames* of landing lag? How it fares as an out of shield option? Or the percentages that it can end stocks?

In a way, Shoryuken is much like the brother of Jigglypuff's rest. Except you can combo into it, there's far less endlag, it's invincible on start up, can be used as a bait, alters the players position, rage makes it so much more terrifying, and you'll actually see players try to use it.

"But the inputs!" No. It's muscle memory, and frankly it's not that difficult. But even if it was, it wouldn't be an excuse. Every other fighting game demands more complicated patterns far more frequently, and I sure as hell don't hear them ******** about it.

---

So after sitting here for what feels like eternity, I have no idea how to conclude this mess that I've written. I'm not asking for a nerf (though I wouldn't be strictly opposed to one) or calling for a ban. No- that's ludicrous; it's the things we hate the most that force us to grow. However, if there is a sustained notion that TRSK isn't a brilliant tool, I hope to be the one to terminate it. If you disagree, that's fair, I never claimed to be perfect- but don't just tell me that I'm wrong, tell me why. We're all looking to grow here ~
 
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Emblem Lord

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Ryu is going to get nerf bombed then you will be like damn Nintendo why did you nerf such an interesting fun character.

There is no other end game for complaining about a character.

Also what you did wrong was look at TSRK as a move alone.

Look at who it's attached too and what implications that brings. How does Ryu hit it? In what situations? **** the inputs. How does Ryu get a confirm? How does he control space? How does he convert and when and where. Does TSRK push Ryu over the edge? Or is it the tool that allows him to be competitive and killing it would have real consequences for his competitive viability.

It's an amazing tool.

Yes he can confirm off rapid normals up close. How does he get close? Does he follow the general meta-law of smash, and rely on one or two really strong overtuned neutral tools to get going? (No he doesn't) If he does, then can he convert into his combos or win condition from that tool? (Nope)

Couple of days ago Ally commented on my FB page about how if you don't have Ryu exp, you will get obliterated. And I was like, ok welcome to fighting games homie. Yes the raw power Ryu has is gonna unsettle you. It will unnerve you because it is a niche he alone occupies in terms of being able to use his power consistently to seal stocks and it solidifies his actual gameplan. Ryu has a REAL stock ending metagame. A way to KO opponents consistently and that is something EVERYONE else lacks.

It's ****ing scary as hell.

Guess what else Ryu has?

Ranked 56th in walk speed. Only Ganon and Jiggs walk slower. He walks slower then Robin. FLIPPIN ROBIN!!!!!!
Ranked 58th for worst aerial accel in the game
Tied for 5th highest gravity meaning he IS combo bait. Just make sure it's a REAL combo and not some ghetto follow-up
Tied for 28th in run speed. Not slow, but not fast either really.
Ranked 52nd for airdodges. Invincible frame 4-25. FAF is 34
Ranked 52nd in spotdodges. Invincible frame 3-17. FAF is 28
Ryu is the only char that only receives a 40% increase in fall speed when he fast falls. Everyone else besides Link gets a 60% increase. Link gets a 90% increase.

Also Shoryuken has 12 frames of landing recovery. Don't know where you got that info from but, it's wrong. If it had 4 frames of landing lag it would be broken without a doubt.

And look I'm not saying Shoryu isnt overtuned even with 12 frames of landing lag. I am saying THAT is the name of the game. Being overtuned, but since Ryu is overtuned in a way that clashes with what the metagame is in every smash game, people call foul. But look at the stuff that matters so much in this game in terms of mobility and where Ryu fits into those terms. His mobility and defensive data is honestly...****ing garbage. If you looked at this data and I said it was Ganon or some other other heavy, you probably wouldn't even question it, besides the run speed data. It's terrible and it really puts things in perspective in regards to what Nintendo's plan was with this character.

Also Focus Attack is frame 1 armor but not cancellable till frame 26. With that crap airdodge its clear nintendo wants him to guess with FA, but FA also has very clear limitations and ways to be exploited.

This whole...looking at a move in a vacuum we always do, guys seriously.

Can we PLEASE stop?
 
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Rizen

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Ryu is going to get nerf bombed then you will be like damn Nintendo why did you nerf such an interesting fun character.

There is no other end game for complaining about a character.

Also what you did wrong was look at TSRK as a move alone.

Look at who it's attached too and what implications that brings. How does Ryu hit it? In what situations? **** the inputs. How does Ryu get a confirm? How does he control space? How does he convert and when and where. Does TSRK push Ryu over the edge? Or is it the tool that allows him to be competitive and killing it would have real consequences for his competitive viability.

It's an amazing tool.

Yes he can confirm off rapid normals up close. How does he get close? Does he follow the general meta-law of smash, and rely on one or two really strong overtuned neutral tools to get going? (No he doesn't) If he does, then can he convert into his combos or win condition from that tool? (Nope)

Couple of days ago Ally commented on my FB page about how if you don't have Ryu exp, you will get obliterated. And I was like, ok welcome to fighting games homie. Yes the raw power Ryu has is gonna unsettle you. It will unnerve you because it is a niche he alone occupies in terms of being able to use his power consistently to seal stocks and it solidifies his actual gameplan. Ryu has a REAL stock ending metagame. A way to KO opponents consistently and that is something EVERYONE else lacks.

It's ****ing scary as hell.

Guess what else Ryu has?

Ranked 56th in walk speed. Only Ganon and Jiggs wal slower. He walks slower then Robin. FLIPPIN ROBIN!!!!!!
Ranked 58th for worst aerial accel in the game
Tied for 5th highest gravity meaning he IS combo bait. Just make sure it's a REAL combo and not some ghetto follow-up
Tied for 28th in run speed. Not slow, but not fast either really.
Ranked 52nd for airdodges. Invincible frame 4-25. FAF is 34
Ranked 52nd in spotdodges. Invincible frame 3-17. FAF is 28
Ryu is the only char that only receives a 40% increase in fall speed when he fast falls. Everyone else besides Link gets a 60% increase. Link gets a 90% increase.

Also Shoryuken has 12 frames of landing recovery. Don't know where you got that info from but, it's wrong. If it had 4 frames of landing lag it would be broken without a doubt.

And look I'm not saying Shoryu isnt overtuned even with 12 frames of landing lag. I am saying THAT is the name of the game. Being overtuned, but since Ryu is overtuned in a way that clashes with what the metagame is in every smash game, people call foul. But look at the stuff that matters so much in this game in terms of mobility and where Ryu fits into those terms. His mobility and defensive data is honestly...****ing garbage. If you looked at this data and I said it was Ganon or some other other heavy, you probably wouldn't even question it, besides the run speed data. It's terrible and it really puts things in perspective in regards to what Nintendo's plan was with this character.

Also Focus Attack is frame 1 armor but not cancellable till frame 26. With that crap airdodge its clear nintendo wants him to guess with FA, but FA also has very clear limitations and ways to be exploited.

This whole...looking at a move in a vacuum we always do, guys seriously.

Can we PLEASE stop?
I see what you're saying but it's not that bad. Focus attack, 1.6 run speed, and 1.12 air speed, even with bad acceleration and dodge data are much better traits that other characters who get comboed/juggled have. He has a bad walk speed but a projectile for mid range pressure, he's 14th in weight with a great kill game so he can take some abuse. Ryu isn't without weaknesses but his mobility and defensive data are not "****ing garbage".
 

TTTTTsd

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Ryu's air accel absolutely neuters a ton of mixup potential he could've had and makes his aerials scary but not impossible to deal with. He has actual setbacks mobility wise. Outside of his run speed it actually IS pretty bad. He has an actual terrible airdodge which not a lot of chars actually have, he has a bad spotdodge, the list goes on.

The thing about Ryu is that his buttons are incredible to offset it, and he is the only character in the game with consistent confirms when he can get them. Outside of SDI out of Utilt locks, everything else (Move > TSRK) works really well.

Ryu is, IMO, the most viable char in this game who is a heavyweight by design and it's mostly because of his buttons, ground speed, and TSRK being a threat at all times. If he lacked the strength TSRK has now his results would drop dramatically. If TSRK and his confirms did not punish you to the extent that they do you would literally have no fear moving around him and just pressing things.
 
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Emblem Lord

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I see what you're saying but it's not that bad. Focus attack, 1.6 run speed, and 1.12 air speed, even with bad acceleration and dodge data are much better traits that other characters who get comboed/juggled have. He has a bad walk speed but a projectile for mid range pressure, he's 14th in weight with a great kill game so he can take some abuse. Ryu isn't without weaknesses but his mobility and defensive data are not "****ing garbage".
Hadouken is not a projectile. It is a poke. You take any sword char or anyone with decent aerials and they can just plow through it and not lose space or zoning control. Just jab hadoukens, crawl under them or jump over. Do not block them. Ever.

FAF on Hadoukens is frame 58. Avoid it and smack him.
 

meleebrawler

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Shoryuken as a wakeup option is present in basically in every single Street Fighter with it's invincibility and speed.
 

Emblem Lord

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Thanks for proving my point. FAF of 59 is one of the reasons all those projectiles aren't as good as they could be. And imo Samus missiles and Pit's arrows are still better then Hadoukens. Hadoukens are good on shield. Don't shield them.

I didnt underrate him. I didnt even give my opinion/thoughts on him as a character. I used evidence and empirical data to explain why Nintendo most likely felt it was ok for him to have such an incredible tool.

How did me talking about Ryu's specs turn into me underrating him?

Did you just misspeak or...?
 
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meleebrawler

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It's both.

And Falco's blaster, Pit's arrows, Samus' super missiles' FAF is frame 59 on the ground. Like I said, Ryu has weaknesses but you're seriously underrating him.
Don't forget the things those projectiles have over hadoukens either. Blaster is transcendent and shoots much faster in the air, arrows can be controlled and charged and super missiles inflict much more damage while giving good stage control on hit.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Controversial opinion time: due to Cloud's lack of results as a solo-character it would no longer be justified to place him in top 3 of a conventional tier list. With Sonic, Fox, Rosalina as well as Mewtwo doing as good as him or better he may not even be top 5.

The question is what keeps him from doing well at major tournaments outside of his 'standard' role as a secondary.

:059:
 

Yikarur

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Inconsistency in 2 Stocks because getting gimped is half the game 8)

and for some reason there are not a lot of high level players really playing him.
- Mew2King dropped out of the last 2 majors
- Tweek is not that strong of a player overall
- Komorikiri uses more Sonic

and I don't know a single Cloud main after that.
 

ShadowGuy1

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Inconsistency in 2 Stocks because getting gimped is half the game 8)

and for some reason there are not a lot of high level players really playing him.
- Mew2King dropped out of the last 2 majors
- Tweek is not that strong of a player overall
- Komorikiri uses more Sonic

and I don't know a single Cloud main after that.
There is still Ned, but he could be gone at 32nd as he faces Marss
 

Rizen

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Thanks for proving my point. FAF of 59 is one of the reasons all those projectiles aren't as good as they could be. And imo Samus missiles and Pit's arrows are still better then Hadoukens. Hadoukens are good on shield. Don't shield them.
"Not as good as they can be" =/= trash. This is not Brawl where top tiers are OP. Just because moves are flawed does not make them bad. Having a multy hit projectile that's good on shield is a good thing, many aren't. Your reasoning for Hadoukens being bad is you can jump over them? This applies to every projectile. While Hadoukens aren't great, they're still a good tool especially parred with Ryu's CQC. Many heavy weights would love to have them.
I didnt underrate him. I didnt even give my opinion/thoughts on him as a character. I used evidence and empirical data to explain why Nintendo most likely felt it was ok for him to have such an incredible tool.
His mobility and defensive data is honestly...****ing garbage.
If you think ^this you have not played the lower half of the cast in that area. Many characters would love to have FA and Ryu's mobility stats. What I'm saying is
Ranked 56th in walk speed. Only Ganon and Jiggs walk slower. He walks slower then Robin. FLIPPIN ROBIN!!!!!!
Ranked 58th for worst aerial accel in the game
Tied for 5th highest gravity meaning he IS combo bait. Just make sure it's a REAL combo and not some ghetto follow-up
Tied for 28th in run speed. Not slow, but not fast either really.
Ranked 52nd for airdodges. Invincible frame 4-25. FAF is 34
Ranked 52nd in spotdodges. Invincible frame 3-17. FAF is 28
Ryu is the only char that only receives a 40% increase in fall speed when he fast falls. Everyone else besides Link gets a 60% increase. Link gets a 90% increase.


Also Focus Attack is frame 1 armor but not cancellable till frame 26. With that crap airdodge its clear nintendo wants him to guess with FA, but FA also has very clear limitations and ways to be exploited.
+Ryu's 1.12 (12th best) air speed and focus attack still is better than the lower half of the cast for defensive mobility. Why? A frame 1 armor move is freaking good. You're complaining about bad air dodges and how FA cancels frame 26 when the fastest airdodge (Mewtwo's) starts frame 2 and FAF frame 29. Most airdodges aren't a mobility option like FA too. Not to mention Ryu's aerials are very good, he has an upB with 3-5 frame intangibility, even in the air, and frame 6 attack, and an aerial burst side B. This is not bad mobility and defensive data.
 

NairWizard

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If you look at the characters that top Clouds are losing to, the problem is obvious. Cloud's lack of a safe grounded poke hurts his swordsman archetype just as much as his great mobility helps it. Tweek lost to Marth and Pit today, and Rosalina in his set against Falln recently; Komorikiri actually opts to use Lucina against Cloud; Sheik has always been a problem for every Cloud.

All of these characters have one thing in common: good, safe ground moves. In fact, I'd argue that the characters mentioned have some of the best grounded pokes in the game.

Falln said it best (and given his recent victory against Tweek his words are worth considering): "Don't jump against Cloud."

If you are able to play a patient grounded game against him, the one massive hole in his neutral may win you the match.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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M2K, Tweek, Rain

That's on par with at least Fox and Mewtwo in terms of high level rep. Citing a lack of representation for Cloud is a john, ZSS is getting more impressive results with less players.

:059:
 

ReRaze

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If you look at the characters that top Clouds are losing to.....Tweek lost to Marth and Pit today.......Komorikiri actually opts to use Lucina against Cloud
Heh, sweet irony, the best swordsman has it rough against other swordsmen.

All of these characters have one thing in common: good, safe ground moves. In fact, I'd argue that the characters mentioned have some of the best grounded pokes in the game.
Yeah they do, except for Pit. His ground pokes are pretty bad for a swordsman (if you consider him one) bar maybe jab.
 

Emblem Lord

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"Not as good as they can be" =/= trash. This is not Brawl where top tiers are OP. Just because moves are flawed does not make them bad. Having a multy hit projectile that's good on shield is a good thing, many aren't. Your reasoning for Hadoukens being bad is you can jump over them? This applies to every projectile. While Hadoukens aren't great, they're still a good tool especially parred with Ryu's CQC. Many heavy weights would love to have them.


If you think ^this you have not played the lower half of the cast in that area. Many characters would love to have FA and Ryu's mobility stats. What I'm saying is

+Ryu's 1.12 (12th best) air speed and focus attack still is better than the lower half of the cast for defensive mobility. Why? A frame 1 armor move is freaking good. You're complaining about bad air dodges and how FA cancels frame 26 when the fastest airdodge (Mewtwo's) starts frame 2 and FAF frame 29. Most airdodges aren't a mobility option like FA too. Not to mention Ryu's aerials are very good, he has an upB with 3-5 frame intangibility, even in the air, and frame 6 attack, and an aerial burst side B. This is not bad mobility and defensive data.
Again I feel your usage of language is incorrect. I didn't complain. I made a statement. Compared to other strong characters those stats are pretty garbage.

Flaws don't make something bad? Depends if the flaws keep the tool from being functional. Hadoukens are good for mid control. They are not all purpose projectile zoning tools. Also I named multiple reasons why Hadoukens are flawed. Jumping was only one.

Tatsu is not a good burst option. It is a heavy commitment. I feel you are reaching with this one.

Do you have a cohesive argument you could present? Also what are you even arguing? That Ryu is a good character? Well you can rest easy because I agree.
 
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YerTheBestAROUND

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So, seeing as Larry Lurr got bodied by Abadango, how's the Fox/Mewtwo MU? On surface level, one would guess that Fox would do well due to great KO power + Mewtwo's giant body and light weight, but Larry was struggling to get in on Mewtwo meaning he couldn't do much. Anyone with more experience in the MU wish to explain a bit further?
 
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blackghost

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I we had a discussion about tiers and gatekeeper a while back. i think its time to revist that talk. i personally dont see ness as the gatekeeper now as the meta is progressing ness isnt moving along with the progression imo. i think i real future gatekeeper falls on either bayo and/or marth in the future.
 

PK Gaming

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I'm just here to say I told you so about Cloud not being a bad match up for Rosa. :bluejump:
We had that realization more than a month ago

I think neither Rosalina nor Sonic do that poorly against Cloud. Representants of a lot of characters initially thought they'd lose to Cloud because the character's strengths are obvious and easy to use, whereas counterplay took time to envolve.

It was well understood that Cloud had the advantage against Diddy until Zinoto started to beat M2K, now the matchup is up in the air more than ever before.
Fox was considered disadvantaged against Cloud, then Larry beat M2K's Cloud and now it's seen close to even.
Nairo losing to Tweek's 'young' Cloud shortly after release and Choco losing to somebody's Cloud [Rain I believe?] had people thinking that Cloud wins the matchup but Nairo keeps making it look even or in ZSS' favor when he plays M2K and Tweek.
The first impression of Cloud vs Sonic was that it's pretty bad but 6wx made it look somewhat close against Tweek, who is no stranger to the Sonic matchup.

Cloud's matchups are very good, don't get me wrong, but he's not unreasonable to the point where he shuts down top tier characters or beats them more than 60/40. Dabuz has also beaten Tweek, I think they're 1-1 in that specific matchup.
:059:
Speaking as a mid level Rosa player, I don't think the MU is terrible at mid level, it just requires some practice because some things Rosa usually gets for free (juggling) require some finesse versus Cloud. She's still able to contest dair better than 90% of the cast with uair (which beats dair when spaced well) and usmash. Luma doesn't die for free if you maintain stage control and understand how far all of Cloud's moves send Luma. She also exploits his recovery incredibly well, largely because she covers his low recovery extremely easily with dair; as long as you can force him to go low, Cloud should be dead.
 
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ReRaze

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First Komorikiri and now Xaltis with the Lucina pocket....who's next?
 
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Iron Kraken

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We had that realization more than a month ago
Okay that's cool. Not trying to take credit for inventing the theory or anything, although I do think Cloud destroying Rosa was still the consensus opinion at the time I said it.

I really just want to say that this tournament has solidified the fact that Rosa doesn't struggle against Cloud at all.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
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It's both.

And Falco's blaster, Pit's arrows, Samus' super missiles' FAF is frame 59 on the ground. Like I said, Ryu has weaknesses but you're seriously underrating him.
The Pits aerial arrows have less total frames at 42 compared to their grounded 58, but slightly higher startup when used uncharged at 22 to grounded's 20. Aerial Arrows would have 21 recovery frames to grounded's 39. When charged, apparently it's the same at 79 startup, 39 recovery, and 117 total frames.

Don't forget the things those projectiles have over hadoukens either. Blaster is transcendent and shoots much faster in the air, arrows can be controlled and charged and super missiles inflict much more damage while giving good stage control on hit.
Hadouken's has the ability to vary its speed, properties when Shakunetsu is inputted, and sort of damage which doesn't really matter.

Falco's Blaster shoots slightly faster not much faster. Ground is frame 11 on startup with each additional laser being 40 frames after while aerial is frame 9 on startup with each additional laser being 33 frames after. Also, the other projectiles have one thing over Falco's and that's normal knockback. The Pits' are very low at 4 base and 80 growth, but they're still usable even at pointblank probably at high percents and definitely usable at mid-range to long-range. Although slow, both Ryu and Samus's will be safe on-hit at any range because of their knockback, especially Ryu's Shakunetsu which will push you back while hitting you. Low set knockback (that was decreased by 1 from Brawl's 3) and ridiculously high recovery means Falco's Blaster is only barely safe at long-range against the slower half of the cast. Low startup, decent travel speed, and transcendent priority are nice and all, but when it's unsafe on-hit, on-shield, and on whiff at max range -- y'know, when zoning? --, there's something wrong.
 
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C0rvus

Pro Hands Catcher
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With the way this game works and the size of the roster, I can't say that there is any single "gatekeeper" as in a game like Guilty Gear. In that game, if your character cannot handle the Elphelt matchup, you're in trouble. (At least that was the case in Xrd Sign, and I could be remembering wrong, it's been a while :x) However, even that is kind of dubious imo. If there exists a counterpart in this game, it's probably Cloud; especially as more and more top and high tiers figure out how to deal with him. Most lower tiered characters still get steamrolled. Either Cloud or Mario is the gatekeeper.
 
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LancerStaff

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And Falco's blaster, Pit's arrows, Samus' super missiles' FAF is frame 59 on the ground. Like I said, Ryu has weaknesses but you're seriously underrating him.
Why are we using Pit's arrows on the ground? Either you're shooting up which I believe has a FAF of 43 like in the air (significantly less then 59 regardless) or it's to get some decent charge on an arrow which is completely not worth the effort if there's even a chance of getting punished when otherwise you wouldn't of. Dark Pit might use arrows where he can get punished where Ryu wouldn't but that's only when approaching is a worse option. They're both ranged projectiles anyway... Hadoken's aren't. They have completely different roles, and IMO even Dark Pit's arrows are more useful then hadokens. Feel free to disagree on that one though.

Falco's Blaster and Samus's Missiles are pretty bad anyway... Hadoken is right between them in frame data, and remember those moves are considered to be some of the worst in the game largely because of it.

Yeah they do, except for Pit. His ground pokes are pretty bad for a swordsman (if you consider him one) bar maybe jab.
I dunno... Dash attack is safe on cross-up right? It is against the people I fight lol. Jab is really good either way, definitely good enough to deal with Cloud on the ground.

And the whole f6 sweeping Usmash thing will make Cloud think twice about throwing out an aerial, lol.
 

Rizen

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They're both ranged projectiles anyway... Hadoken's aren't. They have completely different roles
"Projectiles" are a matter of coding, they can be reflected by reflectors. All the projectiles in the game are used in different ways but they're still projectiles. People need to get out of the mindset of 'projectiles=shoot from far away'.
 
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