Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

And UCT Omega change at that.

Perhaps we will see a large change where they get a handle on wtf is going on with bowsercide, which if you didn't know has a random occurance of who wins the game if he goes flying off the stage on many omegas. On the worst (for him) you can even mash jump and, with a good enough recovery, even survive the attempt.

Its just so odd to me, and they have done a 'fix' by giving bowers more control, but... what is going on that he brings them down like that but they somehow don't die first? Its a mystery, and it certainly has at least a small presence on FG where you have to play various Omegas.

Its just odd there is something going on with the bottom blastzones, where they interact with bower and his prey differently. Perhaps once he is going very fast at the end, he can sometimes actually 'lead' the opponent with his hurtbox? Still seems off to me.


EDIT: I think mobility and floatyness vs extreme fallspeed variance + better sword + arguably better projectiles (ill believe in that boomerang forever once I saw it bring a Diddy back too far with MF and it sent him directly into usmash from below the stage, killing him at 90% due to rage) + better Zair is a good enough differentiation, Link fights more like a super slow swordsman who happens to have projectiles to force you to make an approach to stifle his bad CQC, where TL feels like a zoner who does OK at CQC if he is pressed, but otherwise wants to be confirming into stuff with his bullethell esque ability to have hitboxes hitting you from all sides.

 

[outfoxd]

So how about character Identities
What separates idenity wise
What can namco/nintendo do to make seen as an alternative or style choice rather than inferior

From what i understand Big Link is the slower, trappier zoner with brute force and survivability. He might need a bit of a mobility boost though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So how about character Identities
What separates idenity wise
What can namco/nintendo do to make seen as an alternative or style choice rather than inferior

Can't touch his mobility or projectiles then, making them not inferior/niche would be well... making them closer to Toon Link's. And they won't touch attack speed because swordies ain't suppose to have good attack speed with their sword moves. Link's non-sword moves are already pretty good.

Probably give him a bit more knockback on some of his moves I guess? Make his smashes and Uair kill sooner?

Toon Link is the nimble, more combo heavy/projectile juggling one with difficulty KOing. Link is supposed to be the heavier, slower, more powerful one with a tad more range.

 

[Nabbitnator]

A little bit off topic but I still like how many ZSS players thought her grab was BAD prepatch. Now it actually is bad (well, much worse than before anyway) so I wonder how they live with their lives.

I don't even like using her grab anymore because it's just not worth it. It was already pretty punishable prepatch but it had a good reward. Now it is pretty punishable and the reward is questionable. I think since it doesn't give the same reward reducing the endlag while keeping it a very risky move would do. There are some changes that were made to zss that i question. I guess since she was nerfed like some other characters she'll probably get some nerfs to help other parts of her kit.

Also i saw something about nerfing the start up of aerial abk for bayonetta to match the grounded. Wouldn't that remove her combos completely?

 

[Gawain]

I get that roll canceled grabs are an ancient discovery but is anyone actually using them? Just remembered their existence and tried it on ZSS, and it extended her dash grab by around 1-1.5 standing Marios, which ends up making the overall grab distance almost half of FD at the tip of the tether. Can't check how many more frames it adds to the dash grab due to not having the software at the moment, but if it's 3 or less it's probably faster than running for extra 3 frames and doing a normal dash grab. Would imagine it's even more beneficial for those with slow run speeds, yet no one uses them. Or have I just missed the spark effect every time they do?

I frequently use them when I play Roy, but not Falcon since Falcons normal dash grab is pretty much exactly the same.

Roll canceled grabs are similar to kara throwing in Street Fighter, in fact they're the exact same in concept so I don't know why we don't just call them kara throws. If I had to guess as to why people don't use them as much here as they do in SF, it's because micro spacing and knockdowns are much less important in Smash than in SF due to the fact that tech rolls exist and mobility is more erratic and a thousand times less predictable/controlled. So in other words you can't do meaty grabs in smash(one of the big areas you would kara throw) and tomohawk kara is much less powerful in Smash since jumping isn't even close to as much of a commitment and you do it so much.

Even still, characters like Roy gain something like 15% grab range, its definitely worth using for some.

 

[Luco]

I don't even like using her grab anymore because it's just not worth it. It was already pretty punishable prepatch but it had a good reward. Now it is pretty punishable and the reward is questionable. I think since it doesn't give the same reward reducing the endlag while keeping it a very risky move would do. There are some changes that were made to zss that i question. I guess since she was nerfed like some other characters she'll probably get some nerfs to help other parts of her kit.

Also i saw something about nerfing the start up of aerial abk for bayonetta to match the grounded. Wouldn't that remove her combos completely?

So ZSS without a heavy use of grab = high tier Zamus? Is she going to end up around the same level of viability as her Brawl incarnation? Because I'd like to remind everyone that Brawl ZSS was capable of winning Apex. It does feel like ZSS results have dropped off even more than usual and Nairo's the only real one continuing to do work with her.

Not trying to make an argument here, more just fishing for the views of people who actually main her.

 

[PMMikey]

I watched it at BAM8 almost kill Mr R at 70% from the middle of Battlefield. No fam, the move is ********.


I haven't seen this problem from watching Abadango.

Out of like 58 characters, Mewtwo seems like the one who needs it?
Kek

 

[Mario766]

M2 F-Air is a frame 6, 13 damage move that kills earlier than most moves.

What about the move isn't ********.

 

[TurboLink]

LOL. Giving Link more knockback isn't going to help anything. You'd just be dancing around his true issues like the balance team has been doing for quite a while now.


Link's design hasn't changed that much from the 64/Melee days, it can't be that hard for the balance team to figure out what he needs.

 

[Big-Cat]

M2 F-Air is a frame 6, 13 damage move that kills earlier than most moves.

What about the move isn't ********.

Range.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why can't mewtwo have ******** things?

Did I miss the memo?

Why must everyone play nice in the sandbox?

 

[Mario766]

Range.

But is it release MK level of range.

 

[Big-Cat]

Why can't mewtwo have ******** things?

Did I miss the memo?

Why must everyone play nice in the sandbox?

You must be a waifu and/or space animal (or Diddy) to be top tier and acceptable.

Mario766 So sorry about that. I misread the 2 as a K.

 

[Nabbitnator]

So ZSS without a heavy use of grab = high tier Zamus? Is she going to end up around the same level of viability as her Brawl incarnation? Because I'd like to remind everyone that Brawl ZSS was capable of winning Apex. It does feel like ZSS results have dropped off even more than usual and Nairo's the only real one continuing to do work with her.

Not trying to make an argument here, more just fishing for the views of people who actually main her.

I loved maining zss in brawl but didn't proper item handling help her a lot too? She also had some other things going for her as well.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

LOL. Giving Link more knockback isn't going to help anything. You'd just be dancing around his true issues like the balance team has been doing for quite a while now.

Its highly highly unlikely they've give him a mobility buff.

Really hard to change his projectiles without just making them more Toon Link like.

He's already had kill confirms out of jab before and uh, they didn't like how that turned out.

They don't give sword based characters good frame data unless you're Cloud.

Really narrows down the options. Gotta remember: while they do a lot of balance changes they won't make any changes that they feel disrupts the vision/build design of the character. Link is designed to be the slower, heavier hitting Link. You pretty much just have more knockback and maaaaaybe more options out of throw an options. Except they tend to not like having "projectile heavy" characters having great throw options and Link most likely qualifies as one of those in their mind.

There's just not a lot of things you can do with Link. Curse of having to fall into the flaws of both a heavy hitting sword character and a projectile heavy character.

 

[Mr. Johan]

RE: Robin's nutty Uair.

Yeah, it kills at 90-100 stage level with rage. It's also a frame 10 move on a floaty character, where if Robin tries to connect the thing while falling at the first frame at stage level, he's stuck in traditional landing lag, and if he tries to throw the thing out first frame from a SH, that's effectively 17 frames. And that's just not fun. This isn't Mewtwo Fair, or prepatch Diddy Uair.



RE Link vs. Tink.

The problem with making Link the stronger of the two is that Toon Link is plenty strong anyway. His Fsmash is positively nuts, Usmash is a disjointed-but-not-invincible Mario Usmash, and Fair confirms off of Bomb toss for the kill as early as 105 center stage. Tink is definitely not lacking in the killing department.

If they want to make Link the definitively stronger of the two, then it's Tink that needs the power seep, not Link that needs the power creep.

 

[Mr. Johan]

You don't want Robin with a Frame 4 jumpsquat.

You really don't.

 

[Ulevo]

M2 F-Air is a frame 6, 13 damage move that kills earlier than most moves.

What about the move isn't ********.

It's on Mewtwo.

 

[Eugene Wang]

You don't want Robin with a Frame 4 jumpsquat.

You really don't.

Details?

 

[TurboLink]

You don't want Robin with a Frame 4 jumpsquat.

You really don't.

Just lower the knockback a bit on his Levin aerials if it's that much of a problem. No deserves to have their viability hindered because of their jump squat.

 

[BunbUn129]

Then why not give everyone Mario's 1.6 dashing speed or Sonic dashing speed? Why should Ganondorf be hindered by his bad mobility?

The developers are aiming for varied play styles, not perfect balance. Ganondorf is designed to have powerful aerial attacks to suit his play style, and in order to prevent imbalance, he has a 7-frame jumpsquat and bad air speed to keep those moves in check.

You could perfectly balance the game by giving everyone the same attributes and mobility specs, including a 4-frame jumpsquat, but that simply makes the whole game homogenous and uninteresting.

Heck, why not just give everyone Mario's moveset and call it a day?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Then why not give everyone Mario's 1.6 dashing speed or Sonic dashing speed? Why should Ganondorf be hindered by his bad mobility?

The developers are aiming for varied play styles, not perfect balance.

This really

That's exactly why not everyone has 4 frame jumps, nor will they ever have 4 frame jumps.

This is not only a 1v1 fighting game. They have to consider everything AND making sure character feel "right" for their source.

Hence why when you look through what they would and wouldn't be willing to do, you come to the conclusion that Link is most likely doomed

 

[Ninety]

You don't want Robin with a Frame 4 jumpsquat.

You really don't.

No no, I most definitely do :D

 

[SubconsciousRose]

Details?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that decreasing the jumpsquat of a character opens a larger window for ground to aerial combos as well as just makes the character more fluid in ground to air transitions. (Compare jumping as Fox with jumping as Ganon) So in theory if Robin had a frame 4 jumpsquat then down throw>up air would effectively work at a wider % range and be more consistent.

I think it's for similar reasons that Corrin has a frame 6 jumpsquat because you really don't want her running around getting falling fair/nair into aerial Dragon Fang Shot easily near the ledge because that would be a tad bit absurd.

Then again the dev team decided it'd be a good idea to give Cloud a frame 4 jumpsquat as well as ridiculous movement for a sword character so what the heck do I know
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[BunbUn129]

Why don't you just imagine Ganondorf with a 4-frame jumpsquat?

Because when you do, you'll realize why not everyone has a 4-frame jumpsquat. Robin's smash aerials are damn strong and have large hitboxes, and if you gave him a 4-frame jumpsquat, his fair at least would become unreactable.

Bowser with a 4-f jumpsquat would be able to uthrow -> uair for kills at a much wider percent window.

Characters have different jumpsquats for the same reasons they differ in dash, walk, air, and fall speeds.

 

[PK Gaming]

You don't want Robin with a Frame 4 jumpsquat.

You really don't.

It wouldn't make him that much better

 

[Mario766]

Just lower the knockback a bit on his Levin aerials if it's that much of a problem. No deserves to have their viability hindered because of their jump squat.

I'm trying to imagine heavies with a frame 4-5 jumpsquat

Kinda terrifying.

 

[jespoke]

Robin and Charizard F-air's, Ganondorf N-air and Donkey Kong B-air would all be pretty scary 2-3 frames faster, but the REAL scary thing would be the %-ranges and ease of execution of their throw -> aerial killconfirms

 

[Strong-Arm]

For Palutena Id like to see at least one of these
Bait kbg growth buff
Frames shaved off of dash attack
Nair landing lag reduced
Counter Buff
Side B stays out slightly longer
Fsmash and Dsmash speed or kgb buffs
Ftilt is faster and does more damage
dtilt comes out faster
Bthrow kgb buff
Any of these would help her out alot imo

 

[LancerStaff]

Having a move being significantly better then others isn't inherently bad design unless you want everybody to be Pit or something. Everybody has good moves and bad moves. Well bad move for Pit.

Similarly, the jumpsquat differences are a trade-off. Robin in particular gets powerful aerials at the expense of his jumpsquat.

Though they really could of just gave Levin aerials worse frame data and called it a day...

 

[SaltyKracka]

Why should Ganondorf be hindered by his bad mobility?

The developers are aiming for varied play styles, not perfect balance. Ganondorf is designed to have powerful aerial attacks to suit his play style, and in order to prevent imbalance, he has a 7-frame jumpsquat and bad air speed to keep those moves in check.

Why don't you just imagine Ganondorf with a 4-frame jumpsquat?

You mean Ganondorf, one of the weakest characters for two games running? Ganondorf, on average the slowest character in the game? Ganondorf, the testament to just how lazy and uninspired the balance of this game has been?

Oh no, we can't buff him. Why, he might actually get to be powerful, and that just can't be allowed.

Forget about the reign of Shiek and ZSS, and pay no nevermind to Bayonetta, Counter Surge, or the Hoo-Ha. 4-frame jumpsquat Ganondorf is the thing we all have to fear, and it's addition to the game would be the result of a balance team gone mad!

Seriously, do you even think about the things you're saying?

 

[BunbUn129]

A character with Ganondorf's aerial moveset shouldn't have a 4-frame jumpsquat, for the same reasons giving Ganondorf good mobility isn't a good idea at all unless you significantly tone down his power.

Ganondorf is clearly meant to be a slow, powerful heavy weight and those mobility specs fit his intended play style.

 

[Radical Larry]

A character with Ganondorf's aerial moveset shouldn't have a 4-frame jumpsquat, for the same reasons giving Ganondorf good mobility isn't a good idea at all unless you significantly tone down his power.

Ganondorf is clearly meant to be a slow, powerful heavy weight and those mobility specs fit his intended play style.

Yeah, sure.

 

[SaltyKracka]

A character with Ganondorf's aerial moveset shouldn't have a 4-frame jumpsquat, for the same reasons giving Ganondorf good mobility isn't a good idea at all unless you significantly tone down his power.

Ganondorf is clearly meant to be a slow, powerful heavy weight and those mobility specs fit his intended play style.

I might give a flying fig about what the designs were intended to be if so many of the results of those intentions weren't crap.

 

[Mr. Johan]

If Levin aerials were given worse frame data, then you might as well let him have a permanent Levin Sword.

The purpose of a temporary Levin Sword is to give Robin enormous and powerful aerials without the expense of a long startup like you'd expect. The jumpsquat just serves as an additional barrier to prevent easy abuse.

Bowser and Donkey Kong have similar aerials to Robin as far as speed and size are concerned, but, Robin's aerials are not tied to the hurtbox, nor does Robin have a massive frame that leaves him privy to combo starters as easily as Bowser and DK are.

 

[BunbUn129]

I might give a flying fig about what the designs were intended to be if so many of the results of those intentions weren't crap.

In a game with varied play styles, some play styles work better than others. Ganon's play style of a slow heavy-hitter just turns out to be one of the inferior ones since the game inherently favors characters with actual mobility.

And I honestly couldn't care less either if Ganon is a bad character, to be totally honest.

 

[SaltyKracka]

In a game with varied play styles, some play styles work better than others. Ganon's play style of a slow heavy-hitter just turns out to be one of the inferior ones since the game inherently favors characters with actual mobility.

And I honestly couldn't care less either if Ganon is a bad character, to be totally honest.

"Our poor game design results in obvious imbalance!"
"Eh, screw balance. It's too hard."

So enlightened. Surely this must be the pinnacle of game and character design.

 

[Pancracio17]

"Our poor game design results in obvious imbalance!"
"Eh, screw balance. It's too hard."

So enlightened. Surely this must be the pinnacle of game and character design.

fitting avatar lol

 

[Luco]

I loved maining zss in brawl but didn't proper item handling help her a lot too? She also had some other things going for her as well.

Mm, absolutely. In retrospect my post didn't have too much substance, I was making a base comparison in terms of overall viability based on the idea that smash 4 ZSS has a strong gameplan only hindered by a single questionable aspect which was kindaaaaaaa similar to her in Brawl (although tbh she didn't have proper weaknesses in Brawl so much as other top tiers were just that much better).

In terms of specifics, item play allowed Brawl Zamus to be top tier for the first minute (Salem was super notorious for being able to keep the armour out for ages and use it to his advantage in this super aggressive way), and then she was a character loaded to the brink with ridiculous aerials (Uair was kinda like Bair but vertical, quicker and sounded like you were getting slashed by a sword... And killed at ridiculous percents) and iirc tilts (Utilt and mayyybbbeee Dtilt? You might remember better than I do) and I guess an average ground game because grab was kinda bad and her smashes aside from Dsmash were REALLY bad.

But tbf a lot of characters with sub-par ground games in brawl could get away with aerial walling all day so yeah she was really good in that game.

BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND THOUGH, I guess what I'm trying to ask is do you think this weakness is what's leading to her current drop in results and do you think it would legitimately be enough to pull her out of the ranks of top 10 and into the same boat as Ryu and Ness?

I know I've been a lot less scared of ZSS recently, but I'm not really ready to make any connections to that at present without hearing from the mains and the theorists.

THE GAME THEORI- seriously has anyone noticed how big Matt Patt has become? Can't go onto Miiverse without seeing 'Sans is Ness' repeated 4 or 5 times in one go. Oh but I love TGTs so don't mind me~

 

[PMMikey]

Speaking of the heavies, who overall has the best match ups against most of the cast