BunbUn129
Smash Ace
I stopped when I didn't see Cloud or Bayonetta in top 5.
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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions
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ArnoldPalmer
Smash Apprentice
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I see you didn't consider the fact that literally NOTHING he has actually autocancels in a short hop, meanwhile the only aerials of Falcons that don't autocancel are dair and knee. Roy also doesn't have any powerful aerial finishers outside of an unreliable dair spik, something "brawlers" tend to have.i've decided to compareand
they have similar landing lag numbers,
they have similar startup numbers on their aerials.
comparing grounded non-smash attacks:
comparing smash attacks:
overall:
BunbUn129
Smash Ace
User was warned for this post
MK top 10 and above Mario, Ryu, M2 and Corrin.
K E K
E
K E K
Edit: Larry's is still worse though.
K E K
E
K E K
Edit: Larry's is still worse though.
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ぱみゅ
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I have small disagreements with Mr. R's list, but for the most part it doesn't seem too bad.
I mean, is much better than any of the other 3 lists posted recently...
I mean, is much better than any of the other 3 lists posted recently...
Lag Chan
Fastfall Nair Everyday
Not sure how there can be any debate that DDD is anything but bottom 5. He's pretty much a gimmicky version of Ganon with a complete lack of solid results and an awful matchup spread. When a character gets heavily countered by then I don't see how they can even stand a chance of being even low tier.
then I don't see how they can even stand a chance of being even low tier.Djmarcus44
Smash Journeyman
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The thing that keeps King Dedede from being an obvious bottom five character is his tournament results when his best players show up. For example, Big D got 49th in Genesis 3, but he hasn't shown up to many of the more recent major tournaments. Also, some top players (such as ZeRo) believe that King Dedede has hidden potential.Not sure how there can be any debate that DDD is anything but bottom 5. He's pretty much a gimmicky version of Ganon with a complete lack of solid results and an awful matchup spread. When a character gets heavily countered by
@Radical Larry, why do you have Mii Brawler over Mii Gunner and Mii Swordfighter? Although 2122 brawler has gotten plenty of results recently, 1111 brawler still has the worst results in the game by far. Also, 1111 Brawler's poor range, slow, short-ranged, laggy projectile, poor aerial acceleration, severe lack of killing options, and poor recovery render 1111 brawler substandard in every state of the game.
Goombo
Smash Apprentice
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Can somebody please explain to me what is so fundamentally wrong with Larrys list?
Of course, his mains + Pikachu are a bit high, Bayo a bit low an the Mii-tier seems strange but it doesn't look worse then the average topplayer/random smashboardsuser list.
Other aspects really look on point, like Diddy finally getting the spot he deserves (Fox too!), Puff finally getting her own tier, Robin one time not getting blatantly underrated just because
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Djent
Smash Champion
)
BunbUn129
Smash Ace
It's actually less to do with the placements and more to do with how he described the tiers. I agree Puff deserves her own tier but she isn't the only low/bottom-tier in the game, for example (Miis are also rated low-tier but I won't mention that because like most people I don't know **** about them).
But since you're asking about placements, some of my gripes with his list:
+Note: this is assuming order matters on his list, so I hope I'm not doing this pointlessly.
-Cloud not being in upper top tier and below Ryu, Villager, and Pikachu
-MK being above Corrin and M2
-M2 being too low in general
-Luigi being too low
-DH being the 2nd worst non-Mii character
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Wintermelon43
Smash Champion
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Mr. r needs to play aganist a good Pac-Man. Srrsly, people really need to either play aganist a good one or use him to actually understand why he's top 30 and that bottom 10 is essentially a joke.
Why is Zelda so high?? da heck. Same with Roy.
Why is Samus and Ike (loljapan) so low?
Why is Marth so badly seperated from Lucina
Why is Olimar and Peach so high?
And I blame Mr. R if King Dedede gets no buffs. But srrsly I disagree with that too.
Honestly, this list looks so odd. It's like a hybrid of an american, european, and japanease tier list with Link and Kirby placed higher since he thinks they're underrated. Do Europeans take other continent's results and theorritictial thoughts more importantly, espicially Japan?
D
Deleted member
Guest
As a former Dedede main, your statement about him having a lack of solid results is incorrect. He actually has a handful of rather decent results at high level.Not sure how there can be any debate that DDD is anything but bottom 5. He's pretty much a gimmicky version of Ganon with a complete lack of solid results and an awful matchup spread. When a character gets heavily countered by
- 17th at Paragon LA 2015
- 49th at GENESIS 3
- 33rd at Dismantle 2
- 17th at Midwest Mayhem
- 25th at BEAST 6
- 3rd at North West Majors: Drop Zone (although Big D also used in some sets and in the last two games of GF).
- KingJames beating Zinoto 2-0 at Calder Clash 5. He also performs very well in Midwest generally. Dude makes D3 look like he's mid tier.
Also, Link doesn't "hard counter" us. Robin and Samus, however? That's just absolute suffering.
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Goombo
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I'm not disagreeing that his tier descriptions are extremely optimistic, but on the other side the 4BRs one is in the same way extremly pessimistic with its tier descriptions.
And thats my point: It doesn't look any worse then your "average" tier list. From the reactions of the people here you could think it's some bull**** with Ganon in the upper half and Link in high tier.
But it's not.
While I agree with all your points (I personally don't see the problem with Cloud not being top 5 after recent results and new counterplay, but yeah, he is a bit too low) I don't think any of those characters are far more then 5 places off (pls don't take too literally).
The replies on the other side sound less like "I looked objectively at this list and found some serious flaws" and more like "Hey, Larry wrote something. Let's ****post!"
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BunbUn129
Smash Ace
MU spread. Corrin's top tier MU spread seems a lot less polarizing. Like MK she beats Rosa, but not as hard. Corrin has a winning or at the very worst for her even MU vs Mario, which is the biggest advantage over MK Corrin has when it comes to MU's. So far MK has not been doing well vs Mario and that's a major problem for him in bracket, while Corrin doesn't have to worry about this. We don't have much evidence of Corrin vs Ryu but I wager Corrin has a better time in that MU than MK because she lives longer and can lame Ryu out with her projectile and longer disjoint. The rest of their top tier MU's are the same aside from Sonic: MK loses or goes even and Corrin wins.BunbUn129
What exactly is wrong about placing MK above Corrin? I understand MK isn't that great anymore but Corrin's never been a particularly good character either.
Overall, Corrin having good/manageable MU's vs Mario, Ryu, and Sonic > MK trashing Rosa while having a harder time vs Sonic, Ryu, and Mario.
Corrin is a very good character and is underrated. She's oppressive enough to be a solid high-tier and her kit is nicely-rounded. I firmly believe she should be recognized as a better character than MK who is currently overrated as seen in Mr. R's tier list.
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Corrin is actually not underrated at all. She gets a lot of unjustified credit and is generally seen as a high-tier despite very little empirical evidence available. Your claim that her matchup spread is supposedly better than MK's is entirely based on theory and her matchup against Diddy Kong - who is almost invariably seen as 1st or 2nd best character - is already bad enough to make me question that claim. Matchup sepcific results would be desirable here but there aren't a lot of results despite Corrin's respectable playerbase.
And, of course, if it comes down to it results still trump theory. As things stand there are way too many characters that have similar results to her and some of those aren't characters that you'd necessarily associate with "high-tier".
And, of course, if it comes down to it results still trump theory. As things stand there are way too many characters that have similar results to her and some of those aren't characters that you'd necessarily associate with "high-tier".
C0rvus
Pro Hands Catcher
You know, there is all this confidence that Diddy is number 1 or top 3, but idk I feel like his results are a bit... Lackluster to support that claim. I think Diddy is top tier, but I think the theory is a bit strong in his favor. Maybe it's just an indication of the game's balance, but Diddy isn't a terribly overwhelming character in most matchups. To clarify, he doesn't really "feel" like the best character in the game. Which is lame justification I realize.
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MK mains are massively underrating the character right now, for the most part. Why do you think I haven't been posting here much? Reading this **** makes me want to sudoku. Nobody tests **** and then bases heavy theory on a game tyrant played or something. It's really lame.
Pretty much all I read from other mk mains is that the character is practically unplayable. It's not impressive.
Pretty much all I read from other mk mains is that the character is practically unplayable. It's not impressive.
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BunbUn129
Smash Ace
Corrin's current issue is her high-level rep. The biggest reason MK cleanly beats her there in results is because he still has two top-level players who haven't dropped him yet or relegated him to a secondary. Corrin having more results and placements at low- and mid-level than him since her release--and by a considerable amount--should not be ignored.
MK also has a bad MU vs Diddy, not something unique to Corrin.
MK also has a bad MU vs Diddy, not something unique to Corrin.
Baby_Sneak
Smash Champion
Low and mid-level results are just evidence that corrin is a scrub killer. High level results are what we're looking for.
bc1910
Smash Lord
I agree. It's pretty shocking actually.
As far as I'm concerned, as long as DA remains amazing and 50/50s into Shuttle Loop at death percent MK will never be below top 20. We're still talking about a character with some of the best kill confirms and hit confirms into long combos in the game.
And anyway, is his neutral really that bad? DA remains an excellent button, he has safe grounded pokes, his jumps let him mix up his landings and his grab game is good. His mobility is quite good too.
I actually agree with Ike placement on Mr.R tier list (maybe a tad too low). People don't exploit is really bad recovery enough (Mario can side b both of his recovery options). His frame data is bad, he lacks vertical kill options, he can get juggled for days, he really too much on Fair and Dtilt for approach, his specials are not that useful except for situationals uses and his smash attacks can be used only for really hard read. Yeah the buffs helped him a lot but Ike struggles a lot against everything that have a good projectile / combo game or something that is fast enough
C0rvus
Pro Hands Catcher
That's definitely selling Ike a bit short. His up air and up tilt are very active vertical killers, the former of which is a mix up out of throws and an air dodge eater. His neutral special can eat many recoveries for free and sets up a difficult ledge situation for his opponent where a wrong guess gets you killed at 75%. He's mid tier, around ROB in power level. He is a sword character who can kill off of a grab, which is pretty good.
Diddy placed 3rd in the last ranking season of @Das Koopa's project.
In the current one he's placed 2nd.
Both times behind Bayonetta who has about a million reps across the globe and one time behind Sheik when Void and Mr r attended just about every major tournament in the USA. All while Zero was entirely inactive.
Char's results are ridiculous.
In the current one he's placed 2nd.
Both times behind Bayonetta who has about a million reps across the globe and one time behind Sheik when Void and Mr r attended just about every major tournament in the USA. All while Zero was entirely inactive.
Char's results are ridiculous.
I got a question for you guys.
Do you think that ZSS players are a dying breed? I've been seeing less and less of her lately. I don't know if I'm just overreacting though.
Do you think that ZSS players are a dying breed? I've been seeing less and less of her lately. I don't know if I'm just overreacting though.
C0rvus
Pro Hands Catcher
Aight so I'm wrong. What else is new. Now that I'm home I can hopefully pay attention to the game some more.
Perhaps calling Meta Knight potentially mid tier because he loses like 5 MUS or so was an overstatement. MVD listed a few characters as losing MUS for Diddy, and while he routinely undersells his character, it is possible that even a top 3 character loses to some dudes, none of which are also among the top 3. That's nifty.
Perhaps calling Meta Knight potentially mid tier because he loses like 5 MUS or so was an overstatement. MVD listed a few characters as losing MUS for Diddy, and while he routinely undersells his character, it is possible that even a top 3 character loses to some dudes, none of which are also among the top 3. That's nifty.
420quickscoper
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I agree with you. We haven't really seen much of Nario, especially.I got a question for you guys.
Do you think that ZSS players are a dying breed? I've been seeing less and less of her lately. I don't know if I'm just overreacting though.
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FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
I guess this is what happens when you have iStudying in your region lol
D
Deleted member
Guest
One thing I wanna talk about and see you guys' thoughts on. Certain characters like , and have continued to perform notably well despite their poor perceptions of them and all the odds against them (arguably poor theory and matchup spread). Do you believe that they're somewhere in mid tier or otherwise characters with a niche purpose in the metagame?
, and have continued to perform notably well despite their poor perceptions of them and all the odds against them (arguably poor theory and matchup spread). Do you believe that they're somewhere in mid tier or otherwise characters with a niche purpose in the metagame?This has been bothering me since the first time i saw you post something like thisCorrin is actually not underrated at all. She gets a lot of unjustified credit and is generally seen as a high-tier despite very little empirical evidence available. Your claim that her matchup spread is supposedly better than MK's is entirely based on theory and her matchup against Diddy Kong - who is almost invariably seen as 1st or 2nd best character - is already bad enough to make me question that claim. Matchup sepcific results would be desirable here but there aren't a lot of results despite Corrin's respectable playerbase.
And, of course, if it comes down to it results still trump theory. As things stand there are way too many characters that have similar results to her and some of those aren't characters that you'd necessarily associate with "high-tier".
Tournament results or friendly results, by definition, ARE NOT EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE
dictionary.com
1.
derived from or guided by experience or experiment.
2.
depending upon experience or observation alone, without usingscientific method or theory, especially as in medicine.
3.
provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.
merriam-webster
1.
derived from or guided by experience or experiment.
2.
depending upon experience or observation alone, without usingscientific method or theory, especially as in medicine.
3.
provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.
merriam-webster
- originating in or based on observation or experience <empirical data>
- relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory <an empirical basis for the theory>
- capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment <empirical laws>
There are too many outside factors that can effect a characters results. This has been mentioned by various members including myself. Why this is so hard for people to understand is beyond me. Results as they are acquired will never trump theory as it is nearly impossible to test X character vs Y character while having a completely even playing field, whether it be human Vs human, A.I. vs A.I., or human vs A.I.
A good example of this would be Zeros performance in the diddy vs sheik match-up. Zeros has beaten every notable sheik player he has come across in tournament with his diddy. No other diddy player comes close to Zeros performance in the diddy vs sheik match-up. On one hand I could argue that diddy beats sheik because of Zeros performance. On the other hand I could argue that diddy loses to sheik because she wins more against other diddy mains. Zeros skill level alone may play a major role in this outcome. It's the equivalent of tampering with the evidence at a crime scene.
results are still important but theory is just as important if not more so
ShadowGuy1
Smash Lord
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I find that each of these characters are very underrated just because of one flaw. Samus I am sure you know from jab to others, DHD to kill power, and Palu, well I don't really know. Samus can be very scary in the right hands, like Johnny. Also, DHD is the most underrated character. He have people like You3 doing amazing with him in Japan yet I see people put him in bottom 5. Palutena has been getting quite solid results which TLTC(I think thats the name, correct me if wrong) and Prince Ramen. However, these characters also have decent theory with DHD's Can and frisbee, Samus's projectiles, and Palutena's U-air and Jab and even more. I feel like all these characters have potential to be low mid tier just because they have some flaws that keep them from being higher up, like kill power, range issues, and more.One thing I wanna talk about and see you guys' thoughts on. Certain characters like
EDIT:I feel like all these characters are Low Mid, not can be low mid
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Shady Shaymin
Smash Journeyman
Zero suit samus has been having a rough time lately. In the good old sheik era, ZSS was your go-to for hard reads and ridiculous rewards off of smart punishes. When bayonetta first released, she arguably outclassed her already, and the 1.1.5 nerfs made this even worse.
My issue with the nerfs is that they disproportionally skewed her playstyle and strengths vs weaknesses. She had a lackluster neutral with no really good rising aerial pokes, a bad dash grab to use in neutral, and no real long range projectile, but she compensated for this by getting so much off of simple overcommitments and reads. Now her rewards are nerfed pretty hard and pale in comparison to bayonetta's.
Now my opinion is this: if you have a character that's undertuned in one area but overtuned in another, and you nerf the overtuned designs, you have to compensate for that in the undertuned area, or else the character just becomes objectively worse when they could just be made more balanced. Diddy was overtuned in one area and pretty damn good in every other area, so this compensation wasn't necessary. Same goes for Sheik. The balancing team has some grasp on this concept; this is clear from metaknight's fair buff, and even ZSS's side b buff to an extent.
My issue is that neither of those were enough to keep the character amazing while also balanced. Both characters, especially MK, need considerable adjustments to their neutral to compensate for their lesser punish game.
EDIT: Historically, all of the characters that have been overtuned in one area and undertuned in another area have had the overtuned designs nerfed. What if the opposite happened? What if they just made ZSS's neutral even worse and made her pokes and approaches even less safe, while keeping her ladder combo just as deadly?
My issue with the nerfs is that they disproportionally skewed her playstyle and strengths vs weaknesses. She had a lackluster neutral with no really good rising aerial pokes, a bad dash grab to use in neutral, and no real long range projectile, but she compensated for this by getting so much off of simple overcommitments and reads. Now her rewards are nerfed pretty hard and pale in comparison to bayonetta's.
Now my opinion is this: if you have a character that's undertuned in one area but overtuned in another, and you nerf the overtuned designs, you have to compensate for that in the undertuned area, or else the character just becomes objectively worse when they could just be made more balanced. Diddy was overtuned in one area and pretty damn good in every other area, so this compensation wasn't necessary. Same goes for Sheik. The balancing team has some grasp on this concept; this is clear from metaknight's fair buff, and even ZSS's side b buff to an extent.
My issue is that neither of those were enough to keep the character amazing while also balanced. Both characters, especially MK, need considerable adjustments to their neutral to compensate for their lesser punish game.
EDIT: Historically, all of the characters that have been overtuned in one area and undertuned in another area have had the overtuned designs nerfed. What if the opposite happened? What if they just made ZSS's neutral even worse and made her pokes and approaches even less safe, while keeping her ladder combo just as deadly?
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Kofu
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Okay, I'm going to stop you right there. I agreed with most of your post but this just seems... wrong.
While results can be and are impacted by a variety of factors, when considered in the long run and when comparing results throughout the game's lifespan (patches notwithstanding) they tend to be a bigger indicator of character power than theory. The biggest issue with results, IMO, is that not every character has even representation (in numbers and skill) and that not every player has experience in a given MU. That's a given in a game with nearly 60 characters though. Uneven rep is why you take multiple samples and why you don't let a single big result (Abadango's victory with Mewtwo) cloud your judgment.
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One thing I wanna talk about and see you guys' thoughts on. Certain characters like
got really nice buffs. I wouldn't be surprised if she makes a splash in the future.The problem with theory is theory is often flawed. Horribly flawed. Consistent results over a wide area rule out most of the outliers, although in smash character popularity does have influence I admit. Theory has its place but is meaningless without results.
MistressRemilia
Smash Journeyman
Nah, just that they can legitimately go above charas that don't do ****/could be used a little more but aren't & have bad/mediocre theory going on for them if they weren't already above them, that is to say.One thing I wanna talk about and see you guys' thoughts on. Certain characters like
Like, you won't have to explain yourself so hard just to hear " You're wrong " considering their results, you have all the rights to place, for example, Palutena, above the charas " around " her viability but that haven't done ****, provided you think that Palutena is indeed better ( More than the fact that she has more results )
Characters that haven't/don't done/do **** for a while btw:
( HM to Miis )
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Baby_Sneak
Smash Champion
It would be nice if we theorize who wins what MU/is top tier or high tier/whatever, see the results and reshape our theory based on if the results supports or contrasts with our theory and learn and accumulate knowledge off of that (unless I'm missing something and we been doing that).
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ShadowGuy1
Smash Lord
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What.... Shulk in that section. Shulk has been gaining a lot of support recently from low-mid levels of play, and players like Nicko, Tremendo,DarkWolf, Arty something and Dragonbrain. If anything Zelda and Dorf should be there instead of Shulk. There are even more Shulks coming out and getting results.Nah, just that they can legitimately go above charas that don't do ****/could be used a little more but aren't & have bad/mediocre theory going on for them if they weren't already above them, that is to say.
Like, you won't have to explain yourself so hard just to hear " You're wrong " considering their results, you have all the rights to place, for example, Palutena, above the charas " around " her viability but that haven't done ****, provided you think that Palutena is indeed better ( More than the fact that she has more results )
Characters that haven't/don't done/do **** for a while btw:
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