Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

Wait why is there a B+ if there's no B or B-?

 

[KamikazePotato]

Like, I'm used to every matchup chart maker thinking they 55-45 Ike but this is a pretty new low

 

[Megamang]

Yea boyy, some megaman respect.


Ya'll will be back in a year asking how TF your character deals with pellets, and im gonna be like "With that char? You don't"


Totally ridiculous neutral. Falco can't shoot 3 lasers with complete mobility. This man killed Sigma

 

[Y2Kay]

LUCARIO?!?!?!!

UGH!!!

Yo fam...my heart hurts.

IT HURTS DAMMIT!!!!

what's the matter Lucario's good

I swear once we duke it out I'm gonna go Lucario on you just for the giggles.

 

[aεrgiα]

of all the things weird on that tier list, is no one gonna question the bottom 4? i mean seriously? bowser junior second worst character, and kirby third last? and wii fit 4th last? im at a loss for words

 

[BunbUn129]

At least Umeki isn't placing MK in top 15 or borderline top tier.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Umeki's Tier List. Ordered.

Looks wonky at first glance, but pretty spot-on in terms of Japanese results.

First if all, idk why people are critigizing this tier list, this was made in japan where the metagame is drastictially differant. It's better to just list surprises and differances from the american metagame.

With that said, here are the differances:

Is in top 5
and are top 10
Is top 12
and are a bit worse
Is worse
and are put in high tier with ,,etc.
Isn't even top 25
Is better than Ness
Are a little better
and aren't even top 30
Is lower than most place him, but is higher than his mains think of him since he fell 20 spots.
andare put much higher and are considered about as good as etc
Is about as good as and much lower
Are low tier.
Isn't bottom 15
Is even worse than (Who is considered as good as )
Is much lower
Is a little lower too
Is bottom 5
Isn't bottom 5

Also, surprises about this tier list.

being that low. Why is he so low when Tea and Ginko exist.
Why is So high? Who uses him there?
Why is in last? At least she has Doh or whoever, Bowser Jr and Kirby have NO ONE
I know Is really low in Japan, but why is he THAT low?
How come is so high? Is Shuton that good?
Why is so high?
How did get so low? Is Ranai bustering that badly?
HOW ARE AND NOT GETTING BUFFED WHEN THEY ARE CONSIDERED BOTTOM 10??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!! SAKURAI EVEN SAID HE CHECKS JAPANEASE FORUMS AND STUFF TO FIND OUT INFORMATION ON WHAT PEOPLE WANT!!!!!!!!!!!! ughhhhhhhhhhh

of all the things weird on that tier list, is no one gonna question the bottom 4? i mean seriously? bowser junior second worst character, and kirby third last? and wii fit 4th last? im at a loss for words

Kirby has no players. He essentially was removed from the japanease version but quicky added back for the rest of the world

 

[Megamang]

I remember a year ago someone from JohnNumbers' region said you really don't want a good WFT anywhere near you, and I agree. If anyone should have worse defensive options, it should be the character that can heal herself with her camping tool. And then you give her an absurd ledge game complemented by a great projectile that lets her fire from below the edge and is absurdly powerful at spiking you with a nonsensical hitbox (She headbutted me? Flies into the abyss with extreme prejudice . I know smash is illogical, but that move doesn't make sense in a smash context)

 

[Jucchan]

Duck hunt over Pika, Yoshi and Lugi? I know DH gets great results in Japan but wtf

DH: Top 8 Umebura 22 (with victory over Abadango), Top 6 KSB 2016 (Victories over ikep, KEN)
Pika: Top 6 Sumabato 8 (victories over Earth's Corrin, HIKARU, Kie)
Yoshi: Nothing
Luigi: Top 8 Umebura 22 (victory over Brood, 9B)

Yoshi has no recent results in Japan whatsoever, surprised he wasn't in B+ (idk why it's B+ not B). Pika/Luigi have top 8 appearances but it's important to see that 1. DH actually has more than one player, since both Brood and Yusan have gotten recent Top 8, whereas Pikachu rides on Shimitake who is really inconsistent and Luigi only has bAfuto who both only recently got his breakthrough result 2. Both DH players solo-main whereas Shimitake has a pocket Diddy and bAfuto dual-mains with Mario.

imo Pika is still better than DH by theory but if we're going by pure Japanese results DH>Pika=Luigi>>Yoshi

 

[sedrf]

It's a tier list based on results

 

[Mario766]

Ike is so low in Japan because

A) Japan hates Ike

B) There's literally 1 Ike player in Japan who doesn't go to many events.


That's it.

 

[aεrgiα]

First if all, idk why people are critigizing this tier list, this was made in japan where the metagame is drastictially differant. It's better to just list surprises and differances from the american metagame.

With that said, here are the differances:

Is in top 5
and are top 10
Is top 12
and are a bit worse
Is worse
and are put in high tier with ,,etc.
Isn't even top 25
Is better than Ness
Are a little better
and aren't even top 30
Is lower than most place him, but is higher than his mains think of him since he fell 20 spots.
andare put much higher and are considered about as good as etc
Is about as good as and much lower
Are low tier.
Isn't bottom 15
Is even worse than (Who is considered as good as )
Is much lower
Is a little lower too
Is bottom 5
Isn't bottom 5

Also, surprises about this tier list.

being that low. Why is he so low when Tea and Ginko exist.
Why is So high? Who uses him there?
Why is in last? At least she has Doh or whoever, Bowser Jr and Kirby have NO ONE
I know Is really low in Japan, but why is he THAT low?
How come is so high? Is Shuton that good?
Why is so high?
How did get so low? Is Ranai bustering that badly?
HOW ARE AND NOT GETTING BUFFED WHEN THEY ARE CONSIDERED BOTTOM 10??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!! SAKURAI EVEN SAID HE CHECKS JAPANEASE FORUMS AND STUFF TO FIND OUT INFORMATION ON WHAT PEOPLE WANT!!!!!!!!!!!! ughhhhhhhhhhh


Kirby has no players. He essentially was removed from the japanease version but quicky added back for the rest of the world

a lack of players is no reason to completely disregard a character and his tools, and neither is that a reason to regard international results(at the very least for characters with low enough rep as is) and also, which links are there in japan, or roys, or dedede, afaik since kamemushi "dropped" dedede completely hes fallen off the map over there too... also the meta in japan isnt way different, sure theres a different "playstyle" if you want to call it that but they still use largely the same rules as the us... with the exception of not having dreamland as a counterpick iirc?
edit: forgot duck hunt as counterpick not being legal

 

[Wintermelon43]

a lack of players is no reason to completely disregard a character and his tools, and neither is that a reason to regard international results(at the very least for characters with low enough rep as is) and also, which links are there in japan, or roys, or dedede, afaik since kamemushi "dropped" dedede completely hes fallen off the map over there too... also the meta in japan isnt way different, sure theres a different "playstyle" if you want to call it that but they still use largely the same rules as the us... with the exception of not having dreamland as a counterpick iirc?

The list is results-based so Kirby having no players does matter

 

[Emblem Lord]

what's the matter Lucario's good

I swear once we duke it out I'm gonna go Lucario on you just for the giggles.

Can't play no one in this thread. Yall rather talk about **** then test it out your damn selves.

So diff from the Street Fighter V discussion forum on srk. Everyone is a scientist AND a warrior.

BAH!!!!

 

[aεrgiα]

The list is results-based so Kirby having no players does matter

most of the chars around kirby dont have any rep either and thus no results, so there has to have been at least some opinion involved.

 

[Mario766]

what's the matter Lucario's good

I swear once we duke it out I'm gonna go Lucario on you just for the giggles.

You're sounding a lot like a certain someone and their EVO promises.


Also can I point out just one little thing about this 'pro player mu chart list'


...Look at who did WFT and tell me that it's legit.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

People are not paying enough attention to this. This **** is bananas:

Bowser: 9-31
Bowser Jr.: 10-27
Charizard: 6-37
Ganondorf: 3-42
DeDeDe: 7-42
Ike: 21-24
Samus: 17-27
Wario: 9-23

Probably the most comprehensive proof of Heavyweight Disrespect that I've ever seen.

Then you have stuff like:

Ryu: 26-17
Robin: 4-30 (mother of mercy)
Pikachu: 43-4
Zelda: 3-47
Ness: 20-20
Metaknight: 34-8
Lucina: 7-35
Greninja: 30-9
Dr. Mario: 4-32
Kirby: 10-32

Surprisingly, Link and Palutena actually got some credit.


EDIT: In the middle of me posting this, another highly questionable MU chart was posted. Good grief.

>Ike/Sonic MU is apparently -1 for Ike

Into the trash it goes.

 

[Jucchan]

being that low. Why is he so low when Tea and Ginko exist.
Why is So high? Who uses him there?
Why is in last? At least she has Doh or whoever, Bowser Jr and Kirby have NO ONE
I know Is really low in Japan, but why is he THAT low?
How come is so high? Is Shuton that good?
Why is so high?
How did get so low? Is Ranai bustering that badly?

: idk, though Tea and Ginko not being in Umeki's region might be a factor. Also, Ginko triple mains with Mewtwo and R.O.B. so Pac-man can't get too much credit there.
: Pon and Gungnir mostly. They don't do well in bracket but at least they make it out of pools. Could have been lower.
: Dol is good enough to make it out of pools (most of the time) but busters out of bracket.
: Nojinko has never gotten Top 16 at anything iirc. He could have been above Ganon but definitely nowhere close to Luigi/Pac-man in terms of results.
: Yes. 2nd at Umebura 22 is a really big deal.
: KEN and Komo. KEN has been doing super well, winning Umebura 22 and getting 3rd at KSB 2016. Komo also uses him sometimes. He's a contender for the #1 spot, at least in Japan.
: He hasn't attended anything since Genesis except KSB 2016 where he got 9th, losing to Earth and 9B. kept got Top 6 at Umebura 22 though.

 

[Y2Kay]

You're sounding a lot like a certain someone and their EVO promises.


Also can I point out just one little thing about this 'pro player mu chart list'


...Look at who did WFT and tell me that it's legit.

Naw fam, EL offered me to fight but I had to turn him down becuz of school and stuff. I'll take him up on the offer . . . eventually

 

[BananaBake]

So, you guys seen this? An attempt to make a unified universal matchup chart based on several top players' charts. Heavily biased towards said players' mains and against lesser-used characters (no, Robin doesn't have only four advantageous matchups), but it's still something.

Mewtwo S Tier confirmed.

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx...C!444&app=PowerPoint&authkey=!ALEZLtHJT33xtFA

Seriously most of this presentation is wack af

 

[FallofBrawl]

It's almost like Japan has a different meta than the US.

Come on guys, some of you just live to complain.

 

[aεrgiα]

You're sounding a lot like a certain someone and their EVO promises.


Also can I point out just one little thing about this 'pro player mu chart list'


...Look at who did WFT and tell me that it's legit.

this caused me to look at the mu charts, well guys its official, lucas is bottom tier, has 6 winning match ups, loses to 80% of the cast and the rest are even(if you disregard the lucas mu chart)... okay joking aside, looking at those mu charts kinda makes the mu chart list lose a lot of credibility, though acestars mu chart stands out as being pretty interesting(not gonna say its wrong or w/e because i dont know enough about wft but its definitely way off from my expectations). interestingly enough zinoto apparently considers lucas as even when imo its one of lucas worst mus, id love to know whether he knows something i dont :/ and riot considers lucas(along with mario, diddy and ness) to be one of bayos counters,which is interesting because ive been thinking along those lines too(zoner with a good grab game(although in reality its probably similar to the ryu mu, their reward is just so much better than lucas' its probably even )) whats interesting though is that he considers megaman to be in bayos favour and olimar as even(what? also doc is apparenlty 95-5, dont see how doc is so much worse than mario that it goes from winning to unwinnable but meh) so that does make the chart questionable :/

 

[Nysyr]

LUCARIO?!?!?!!

UGH!!!

Yo fam...my heart hurts.

IT HURTS DAMMIT!!!!

Optimal Lucario is actually quite terrifying. You just have to camp harder than customs villager.

 

[Deathcarter]

Umeki's Tier List. Ordered.

Looks wonky at first glance, but pretty spot-on in terms of Japanese results.

Does anybody in Japan use Wii Fit Trainer? Ike, DK, and Bowser don't really surprise me but how can one of the most campy and evasive characters in the game be considered bottom 5 in Japan's more defensive meta except for complete nonexistence? ROB's also a lot lower than I would expect.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Does anybody in Japan use Wii Fit Trainer? Ike, DK, and Bowser don't really surprise me but how can one of the most campy and evasive characters in the game be considered bottom 5 in Japan's more defensive meta except for complete nonexistence? ROB's also a lot lower than I would expect.

Japan has RIN (Who got 33rd at Genesis 3 and double elimianted False) But he doesn't go to tournaments there.

 

[Djent]

^ *25th. And he goes to tournaments, but just doesn't do very well. His best result is like, 9th at Sumabato 7.

 

[ARISTOS]

No one arguing about being first? Interesting.

I don't disagree

 

[Megamang]

Unless they slam diddy with nerfs again, he'll never not be top tier. Even one round of pretty harsh nerfs didn't really do much besides make him more fair. Tons of characters really hate the MU, and Diddy is so damn common and intuitive that having a badish Diddy MU is more damning that having an uncommon hard counter.


Of course, Megaman does really well vs both Diddy and Sonic, which may have a lot do with his placement. He also does well vs Cloud and Bayonetta, who seem more common but im less sure of those facts.

I thought Japan had some really solid Mario talent and rated him more highly than we do? In a slower, more precise meta, he may struggle to kill... but he does have kill confirms. Also, FLUDD is low key super powerful in neutral against a LOT of characters, especially since it works damn well against slower disjoint characters AND cloud, things he traditionally dislikes but we don't see top Marios in america abusing Fludd fully just yet.


Mario facing away from you charging FLUDD is actually super threatening, since in that moment he can shield/usmash/reverse SJP/Bair

 

[Djent]

Karisuma 7 (3 on 3) is live now!

 

[C3CC]

Why is everyone saying Diddy is number 1 again? :S

 

[Luco]

Oh, yeah aεrgiα . I got 3-stocked by Jezmo's diddy kong last night in crews because I brought out Lucas to deal with Sheetashi's Megaman. ;_;

Mr R agreed I should have gone Ness had I been given the chance. That MU feels bad.

Edit: Changed a player tag slightly because otherwise it censors it lol.

 

[Ninety]

Probably because in the wake of 1.1.5, nobody knows who to put there. Sheik's reign is over, the nerfs hit ZSS hard (and MK worse, but he wasn't ever really a contender), Rosalina's not dominant enough to be seriously considered, Bayonetta doesn't have top-level representation, Cloud's results aren't quite up there yet. By process of elimination and raw (meaning ZeRo's) results, Diddy is as good a guess as any.

 

[Trifroze]

I'd say it's either Diddy or Sheik, Sheik just requires a player with a lot of dexterity and cool. Almost all other (top) characters seem to consider these two among their toughest matchups.

Cloud I don't think is a contender, he's just a very good low effort character who's also very popular, but in the end he loses to shield/PS pretty hard, has an exploitable recovery and lacks good pokes. Bayonetta is still a big question mark because she lacks a top name representing her at majors, but she along with Ryu is going to wear many of her opponents out super hard in longer sets. Even with the upwards QCSDI, you're not going to be able to mash it quickly enough for long, especially if you're a high gravity character. With Ryu mentioned, he's not really a contender because he loses pretty hard to zoning and gimps by certain characters.

ZSS in my opinion loses to at least Diddy, Sheik, Ryu and possibly Fox, Greninja and Bayonetta, and I'd wager Rosalina, Mario, Fox and Sonic also have plenty of losing matchups. I know ZSS beats Rosalina and Sonic out of the four.

Unless Mewtwo is better than very good (which is unlikely at this point) there isn't really anyone else to mention.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

I thought a lot of Cloud's moves were safe on shield?

 

[LancerStaff]

Japan doesn't seem to like the FE characters much... Marth and Lucina are fine, but then Corrin's right below them. (On that note, is Earth the only notable Japanese Corrin or something?) Roy's also in the right spot but then Ike and Robin are in the same tier somehow.

Then ROB seems really low even though he's the better Famicom version over there.

 

[Radical Larry]

Japan doesn't seem to like the FE characters much... Marth and Lucina are fine, but then Corrin's right below them. (On that note, is Earth the only notable Japanese Corrin or something?) Roy's also in the right spot but then Ike and Robin are in the same tier somehow.

Then ROB seems really low even though he's the better Famicom version over there.

Japan seemingly uses characters that they know they're better with.
That's why we see Pikachu's one spot away from Link, so they're TOTALLY the same there.

...but not here.

 

[Megamang]

Trifroze's post just made me think... we are in a state where the best character isn't clearly defined as the character with such good options that they beat everyone on a theoretical level. It feels good; I watch tournaments now with swaying thoughts on who seems to be the best based on MU and representation, rather than just being slowly validated on why one character should always win. Shiek's killing weakness is stark enough that she feels fair. She was suffocating before, but now each kill feels hard fought. It felt 'free' to be dominated before because fair was certainly better than your fair and probably better than 90% of your buttons in neutal + reward. Trades feel like a good play rather than her just mispacing. Is she the best? I dunno, banana is pretty good. Zero playing right now would be very very interesting to me; im super hype for summer majors.


And I wanna see more Trela v top players.

 

[juddy96]

Japan doesn't seem to like the FE characters much... Marth and Lucina are fine, but then Corrin's right below them. (On that note, is Earth the only notable Japanese Corrin or something?) Roy's also in the right spot but then Ike and Robin are in the same tier somehow.

Then ROB seems really low even though he's the better Famicom version over there.

Earth and YOC are the two main Corrin's in Japan, and Earth mostly plays Pit lately. Marth has Fuwa, who defeated Komorikiri at a recent sumabato, Rizeasu, who mains the FE characters (Marth, Robin, Ike) and beat Fuwa in a Marth ditto at the same tournament, and Leo who beat Rain and Nyanko. Roy doesn't exist in Japan, and Ike only has Nojinko, who doesn't place well. Robin has Mr. II and Ke-ya, but they don't place highly in Japan either.

 

[Yonder]

I really wanna see Zero back in action again, I don't think he has played since the patch was released. Course with his hand, it will be a while so.

 

[Radical Larry]

Spoiler: Hypothetical Tier List

Spoiler: Explanation of This Tier List

Speaking of a tier list, this is the 1.1.5 Version Hypothetical Tier List. Now when I say Hypothetical, this is just a rough estimate of the positions of the tier list for 1.1.5, which will likely come out within a few months. Gauging results, thoughts of characters and relevancy of MUs overall, I can come to this conclusion.

The top 5 still have all of the blonds, but Diddy Kong and Fox are also here, and the first four are all contenders for number one for now, so they will be tied. Bayonetta is in Upper Top Tier, but she's not exactly in top five since her results don't necessarily speak top five as of yet, and the fact that players are learning will also be determinate for Bayonetta's lower position in the Upper Top. Cloud's still in the same spot only due to his relevancy in being high, but the nerfs did somewhat keep him from going far with me; maybe more results can prove me wrong.

Nothing else substantial on the Upper High Tier and above, but as you'll see going to the Lower High Tier, dubbed Mettaton Tier (only because I didn't have another name for it, so it stuck), it's still within the "High Tier" categorization. And as you can see, right off the bat, Link is in the 30th placement position, not too far from where he might indeed be in the tier list. Then you have Samus at 3th, only due to her buffs having such a wonderful effect on her in the long run, all of which make her more viable than ever. And as you can see, I'm not one of those dolts who thinks Lucina's THAT much worse than Marth, as she fits in the same tier with him only due to being nearly akin to Marth, outside of, you know, being somewhat worse. Luigi's dropped from his 16th Place Position all the way down to 38th and this is due to the nerfs and lack of relevancy recently, as well as people just getting that much used to him.

And now we have the Upper Middle Tier, where unsurprisingly, Ganondorf is on the top end of the bottom 15 characters along with Zelda. And going down to Loer Middle Tier, we have Roy going so low. Roy is low, why? When was the last time Roy's gotten a top 16 placement? Top 32? (That's something I really want to know, actually. What's the most recent Top 16 and 32 Placement for Roy?)

Unsurprisingly again, Charizard is deemed my worst super heavy since I haven't seen much to him yet. I could have put him in bottom five, if Duck Hunt didn't have even less decent results than Zard. Though I will state this; the entire Middle Tier is completely malleable, meaning that it can shift here and there just depending on what result gets very relevant. Heck, the lowest three of the Lower High Tier could easily fit into middle tier.

And lastly, as we all know, I just put Jigglypuff in Bottom Tier. To be fair, even if she's a joke, she's still decent at least.

Of course, this is merely a hypothesis on what the outcome of the tier list could look like. For all we know, it could be radically different from what I hypothesize, depending on if the Back Room can take certain results seriously or not, and if the characters become more relevant over time.

I really wanna see Zero back in action again, I don't think he has played since the patch was released. Course with his hand, it will be a while so.

I myself am wondering just how he'll perform later on in tournaments. It is possible he might end up losing some tournaments since he hasn't been to much in a long while, or heck, he might have lost some level of skill after the hiatus.