Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Fatmanonice]

The thing about Corrin's results, or at least a large amount of them posted in this topic.... they aren't solo results. Its solo results that really determine how viable a character is compared to their theory. Don't get me wrong, certainly some high solo placements.... but a lot of shared placements as well. Which to me speaks a fair bit about Corrin's viability (and being heavily overrated. They're floating somewhere in D tier by the 4BR tier list method)

Not to mention that the character is still fairly new and was hit by a number of notable nerfs in the last patch. I'm just saying that I don't see her having a lot of staying power.

 

[Shaya]

Sounds like a good design to me.
I don't really understand your whole point. Corrin is pretty slightly above average with unique tools. Thats a good think. There is nothing busted about it at all.

I enjoy playing the character, there's a lot there to work on and improve in. There's just so many options available. In a vacuum, the design is pretty fantastic.

What I find problematic is the polarizing aspects; the risk for Corrin in a lot of match ups is minimal but the reward is stupendous; a safe, high powered wall (we can make comparisons to Rosalina and Villager) without any observable merits for going in (taking risk) is dangerous.
Everything the character does is based around punishing things further away than any character in the cast has immediate punishes for. (Mostly) high tiers having the mobility options to actually take space from Corrin without still being at significantly more risk shouldn't be what's deciding this character's even perhaps even slightly advantaged match ups. Characters like Cloud and Zero Suit (I'm not sold, but several prominent ZSS say it's our disadvantage) actually struggle to capitalize even while properly calling Corrin's options. warningbell

Corrin isn't breaking my shield, and furthermore dies offstage much more easily than over half the cast. If you're going to argue dynamic interactions somehow lean towards someone's favor, how does this actually lead to Corrin's favor? All I need is to confirm punishable spacing after perfect shielding and put Corrin offstage and know my edgeguard options. This is trivial to accomplish from dynamic interaction.

Also worth noting as Smash 4 is a fairly mixup oriented game, a lot of the best characters have really good negative states. Cloud managing to be an exception because...he's beyond insane at neutral and regular followups. Corrin's negative state is clearly not very good, and while the character does have very good aerials, has to make very non-trivial reads (if they're even available) to bypass shield and retreat.

While Corrin's recovery isn't infallible, I'm not sure where we're getting that it's easy to just throw them off stage and take a stock.
But just so we're on the same page here, I'm not even attempting to say this character is some hidden god without weaknesses. I do feel relatively confident that the design will lead to polarizing match ups.

I think comparing sword fighters to other sword fighters is inherently pretty pointless unless they are clones because ALL other ones are completely unique in what they want to do and how their moves work.

Maybe that's just me though.

It may not just be you, but I know tons of people who are sword fighting fiends~

Roy, the Falchions, the Pits, Shulk, Cloud, Ike, Corrin are all very similar in play patterns and I personally recommend any swordfiend to play all of them (if you're good enough to play Marth competently you can play them all [Roy/Shulk being more difficult] well enough and win tournaments when you feel like it with Cloud). Corrin contrasts quite a bit by being heavily skewed away from trying to encroach or aggress like the rest of them tend to. Ike tends not to be as popular among the disciples because the top-caste grab game but less emphasis on reactive punishments (slower start ups and arcs) is pretty different for the average Sword Master fetishist, but he's good at developing various important skills still.

 

[Solfiner]

: like Roy, Shulk initially had his own niche--in this case, range. But that all went away with Ike's buffs and Cloud's inclusion, the latter of whom has longer range and better frame data, along with Limit Break which is simply more appealing than the Monado Arts.

Umm... No.

Shulk's fair is longer than both Cloud's and Ike's (Before anyone gets on my case for this; go and try it yourselves. Shulk's Fair is still better horizontally than Ike's.) Shulk's forward Smash is longer than both of theirs as well. Shulk outranges Ike in literally everything except jab and grab range. Shulk also outranges Cloud in everything, EVEN Nair. I tested all the ranges extensively to come to this conclusion.

And for the record, Shulk can do an instant ledge snap with his up-b AND ledge snap with the second hit.

Stop with the misconceptions please.

 

[Ulevo]

Not trying to start a war here, but voice acting should have nothing to do with rep. Second, saying P/DP aren't represented because there are better characters is so redundant. Time needed is also a factor sure, but look at how long it took Zero to learn pre-patch Sheik

It shouldn't, but it does. Think about it logically for a moment. Do you really believe that characters like Olimar, Pac-Man, and Wii Fit Trainer are poorly represented just because they are not as good as other characters? There is more at work here. Olimar for instance not only has a playstyle many people find distasteful, but he does not have personal appeal many like to identify with. Many find him strange and hard to enjoy on face value.

It does not matter if this is a matter of opinion because it does indeed affect how many players will try and play them, and I have had many people say that they would love to main Pit if he did not sound so whiny.

Also, I am not saying their representation is hindered because their are better characters, but that there are characters who fill Pit's niche better with more reward. He might be an entirely different character, but from the perspective of role and intent he does not have the same value he would if Mario and Cloud did not exist.

 

[HeavyLobster]

But Corrin is like, the king of turtling. Why are you trying to keep him out? He's trying to do that do you, and likely better. Nair, fair, bair, DFS, Dragon Lunge; all excellent defensive zoning tools, almost all safe when used correctly. DL is absurdly good. I think it makes the character quite a bit more threatening than they could be without it. This character is very good.

Cloud is unquestionably better, but Corrin offers a different set of tools suited to a different play style and is very much a viable character.

Corrin also has no way of forcing approaches. His projectile is a big commitment and is fairly easy to powershield in neutral. This becomes an issue should he be outcamped or fall behind. I don't see Corrin as top 20 considering how high that bar is with all the buffs that have been going around. Corrin kind of only has one way to win, and while it's a pretty good way to win, it's also tough when Corrin has to really try to go in. He's still a decent character, but characters like Ike, Mewtwo, Greninja, Tink, and the Pits I think are generally better.

 

[BunbUn129]

Umm... No.

Shulk's fair is longer than both Cloud's and Ike's (Before anyone gets on my case for this; go and try it yourselves. Shulk's Fair is still better horizontally than Ike's.) Shulk's forward Smash is longer than both of theirs as well. Shulk outranges Ike in literally everything except jab and grab range. Shulk also outranges Cloud in everything, EVEN Nair. I tested all the ranges extensively to come to this conclusion.

And for the record, Shulk can do an instant ledge snap with his up-b AND ledge snap with the second hit.

Stop with the misconceptions please.

I apologize.

The things you learn...

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Corrin also has no way of forcing approaches. His projectile is a big commitment and is fairly easy to powershield in neutral. This becomes an issue should he be outcamped or fall behind. I don't see Corrin as top 20 considering how high that bar is with all the buffs that have been going around. Corrin kind of only has one way to win, and while it's a pretty good way to win, it's also tough when Corrin has to really try to go in. He's still a decent character, but characters like Ike, Mewtwo, Greninja, Tink, and the Pits I think are generally better.

Actually, you don't even need to powersheild DFS. Literally any move with a lingering hitbox can cancel out the hitbox (some characters with consecutive jabs such as Little Mac and Fox can just hold A to cancel out the hitbox). This is a large reason why I personally believe it to be one of the worst projectiles in the game.

 

[PK Gaming]

The thing about Corrin's results, or at least a large amount of them posted in this topic.... they aren't solo results. Its solo results that really determine how viable a character is compared to their theory. Don't get me wrong, certainly some high solo placements.... but a lot of shared placements as well. Which to me speaks a fair bit about Corrin's viability (and being heavily overrated. They're floating somewhere in D tier by the 4BR tier list method)

Yeah, around D-tier seems like a fair estimate. I'll be the first to admit that I overestimated the hell out of the character (and I apologize for my overzealous bias in the past). That said, I genuinely believe she has room to grow from there, depending on how the metagame settles and/or her dedicated mains stick with her. I guess I have no choice but to default on "we'll see how things shake out" although, I'm feeling rather... optimistic.

 

[Ninety]

Maybe it's just me, but it's starting to seem like "sword fighter" is becoming as meaningless a term under which to group characters as "fist fighter". In theory, they're supposed to be threaded together by mid-ranged disjoints with few active frames, but that definition doesn't really apply to like half of them. Some have projectiles and some don't, some have grab games and some don't, some are agile and some are Shulk. I'm just nitpicking here, but if you remove yourself from the visuals a bit, there really isn't that much making, say, Cloud more similar to Meta Knight than to Mario or something.

(Also, on a slightly hypocritical bent, stop excluding Robin from swordfighter discussions, he gets lonely ;_

 

[LancerStaff]

Roy, the Falchions, the Pits, Shulk, Cloud, Ike, Corrin are all very similar in play patterns and I personally recommend any swordfiend to play all of them (if you're good enough to play Marth competently you can play them all [Roy/Shulk being more difficult] well enough and win tournaments when you feel like it with Cloud). Corrin contrasts quite a bit by being heavily skewed away from trying to encroach or aggress like the rest of them tend to. Ike tends not to be as popular among the disciples because the top-caste grab game but less emphasis on reactive punishments (slower start ups and arcs) is pretty different for the average Sword Master fetishist, but he's good at developing various important skills still.

Meanwhile usually the Pits get ignored because they use a bladed bow thingy instead of swords. <_< Like when people leave them out of the swordsman discussion when that's kinda how we got here the first place is like gaaah.

Anyway... Eh. I've tried playing the other swordsmen but things don't usually work out. Roy and especially Marth feel too similar and then I try playing them like Pit and go for ACs or dash attacks/grabs and I basically get the opposite of what I wanted, and I've kinda ignored them because they aren't (or at least weren't) that good anyway.

...Wait, this isn't the Pit social derp. I'll cut this short then.

Ike sorta ironically feels good to me, post buffs anyway. Mostly I like him because he feels very different from the Pits but still has qualities I like and is viable. People say he's harder to play but other then silly things like using the wrong throws I do decently with him, so uh, IDK.

It does not matter if this is a matter of opinion because it does indeed affect how many players will try and play them, and I have had many people say that they would love to main Pit if he did not sound so whiny.

Also, I am not saying their representation is hindered because their are better characters, but that there are characters who fill Pit's niche better with more reward. He might be an entirely different character, but from the perspective of role and intent he does not have the same value he would if Mario and Cloud did not exist.

That's nice but conveniently not-whiny Pit exists. The closest I've had to a complaint with Dark Pit's voice is his screech on Dsmash when I end up using it a lot, though basically any character is grating if they have a voice clip bound to a commonly used action. Such as the entire Melee cast. Lordly the noise that comes out of that game is bad. People still play it tons though.

Pit's easy to pick up, but not easy to win with. Winning requires being good at the game... I've had success getting people to try them saying they're the best fraud check/get gud character in the game. To wit, if you can't even play convincingly with Pit, you're a terrible player. They're not competing with Cloud and Mario because they're the opposite of them.

 

[BunbUn129]

That's nice but conveniently not-whiny Pit exists. The closest I've had to a complaint with Dark Pit's voice is his screech on Dsmash when I end up using it a lot, though basically any character is grating if they have a voice clip bound to a commonly used action. Such as the entire Melee cast. Lordly the noise that comes out of that game is bad. People still play it tons though.

I'm sorry, what? Nothing will ever top Japanese Fox and Falco.

 

[Shaya]

Maybe it's just me, but it's starting to seem like "sword fighter" is becoming as meaningless a term under which to group characters as "fist fighter". In theory, they're supposed to be threaded together by mid-ranged disjoints with few active frames, but that definition doesn't really apply to like half of them. Some have projectiles and some don't, some have grab games and some don't, some are agile and some are Shulk. I'm just nitpicking here, but if you remove yourself from the visuals a bit, there really isn't that much making, say, Cloud more similar to Meta Knight than to Mario or something.

(Also, on a slightly hypocritical bent, stop excluding Robin from swordfighter discussions, he gets lonely ;_

Well I opted away from mentioning other characters with swords because they aren't hyper overlapping in qualities and abilities like the ones I mentioned.
So it's probably not just you, but what I mean by "swordie" are those which share a theme that many (under my guidance ) can get. I sometimes refer to swordie players as Emblemers because that's where the archetype comes from and covers most that I'd consider swordies.
No one brings a Link to a sword fight, and Robin doesn't focus their play around their disjoints "much" (definitely not pick up and play or an easy crossover). Meta Knight has drastically shifted away from being much like any of those in the archetype between Brawl (which imo was Lucario, Marth, MK) and now.

I'm unnecessarily biased against MiiSword though. They'll exist, one day @_@

 

[BunbUn129]

Well I opted away from mentioning other characters with swords because they aren't hyper overlapping in qualities and abilities like the ones I mentioned.
So it's probably not just you, but what I mean by swordie share a theme that many (under my guidance ) can get. I sometimes refer to swordie players as Emblemers because that's where the archetype comes from and covers most that I'd consider swordies.
No one brings a Link to a sword fight, and Robin doesn't focus their play around their disjoints "much". Meta Knight has drastically shifted away from being much like any of those in the archetype between Brawl (which was Lucario, Marth, MK) and now.

I'm unnecessarily biased against MiiSword though. One day @_@

???

 

[Shaya]

His aura disjoints on his normals were bigger than Marth's sword~
He had a lot better range than he has now and played to zone around his disjoints while still being relatively speedy.

Is this a good time to mention Mewtwo plays a lot like a swordie?

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm sorry, what? Nothing will ever top Japanese Fox and Falco.

Come back to me after watching AMSA's Yoshi against a Sheik, lol.

 

[Das Koopa]

His aura disjoints on his normals were bigger than Marth's sword~
He had a lot better range than he has now and played to zone around his disjoints while still being relatively speedy.

Is this a good time to mention Mewtwo plays a lot like a swordie?

For what it's worth, common perception of Mewtwo in Melee was that he was a garbage version of Marth

 

[Nysyr]

His aura disjoints on his normals were bigger than Marth's sword~
He had a lot better range than he has now and played to zone around his disjoints while still being relatively speedy.

Is this a good time to mention Mewtwo plays a lot like a swordie?

At least the disjoints back then justified the frame data.

Now? Not so much. DTilt, FTilt, and Jab are so awfully laggy and lacking range that the character would be better if you actually deleted the moves so you couldn't accidentally press them.

 

[Charoite]

is a character that can mix up his options to cause damage or win space, and analyzing this options individually is wrong, Dragon shot projectile is dangerous because the speed of the projectile can be controlled, this can throw off the opponent reaction and be hit with it, same with DL, she can choose what option to use, and the opponent need to guess right.
Add moves with good range and good speed proportionally to the range of the moves, and you see why some players think she is top 15.

A character doesn't need to have insane mobility if this moves have great range, or be fast, or damage, an optimal combination of the three is sufficient to make a good character.

 

[juddy96]

Le Troof ended up winning the Virginia local tonight, defending their turf. Day got 2nd and Zenyou got 3rd.

http://thecavessb.challonge.com/j3kftyv1

 

[bc1910]

The thing about Corrin's results, or at least a large amount of them posted in this topic.... they aren't solo results. Its solo results that really determine how viable a character is compared to their theory. Don't get me wrong, certainly some high solo placements.... but a lot of shared placements as well. Which to me speaks a fair bit about Corrin's viability (and being heavily overrated. They're floating somewhere in D tier by the 4BR tier list method)

This is interesting. I'm not sure why either - does Corrin have a gatekeeper or a copious amount of -1s? Or is it more of a Pit case where most of his MUs are even but repeated batterings from top tiers make him unlikely to last an entire tourney.

Solo viable characters right now IMO:

Upper:
Lower:

The upper group should have no real issue winning a tournament. The lower group have more issues (e.g. Ness is countered by Rosalina) but they're the next best choices. I'd have thought Corrin could join the ranks of the lower group.

Shoutouts to DK and ROB who might be solo viable, but it's hard to see them not getting cheesed by at least one of the four S-tier ladies (no, not Cloud) at a national level event. I think there are other characters that could win a big event solo, but you'll have a much harder time doing it with them.

But Corrin is like, the king of turtling. Why are you trying to keep him out? He's trying to do that do you, and likely better. Nair, fair, bair, DFS, Dragon Lunge; all excellent defensive zoning tools, almost all safe when used correctly. DL is absurdly good. I think it makes the character quite a bit more threatening than they could be without it. This character is very good.

Cloud is unquestionably better, but Corrin offers a different set of tools suited to a different play style and is very much a viable character.

Ness is king of turtling IMO. His shield is most threatening because he kills you so easily from it, and his aerials are all wall-y. Whilst not quite as good at keeping you out as Corrin I think he gets more reward for successfully doing so (or rather, punishing your attempts to get in).

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Hasn't Ryuga been getting good results as a solo Corrin?

 

[LordShade67]

Hasn't Ryuga been getting good results as a solo Corrin?

Only result I know of is 2nd at Landlocked in both Singles and Doubles. Running Solo Corrin apparently, but still something, I suppose.

EDIT: Oops, wrong date. My b.

 

[Browny]

This is interesting. I'm not sure why either - does Corrin have a gatekeeper or a copious amount of -1s? Or is it more of a Pit case where most of his MUs are even but repeated batterings from top tiers make him unlikely to last an entire tourney.

Solo viable characters right now IMO:

Upper:
Lower:

The upper group should have no real issue winning a tournament. The lower group have more issues (e.g. Ness is countered by Rosalina) but they're the next best choices. I'd have thought Corrin could join the ranks of the lower group.

Shoutouts to DK and ROB who might be solo viable, but it's hard to see them not getting cheesed by at least one of the four S-tier ladies (no, not Cloud) at a national level event. I think there are other characters that could win a big event solo, but you'll have a much harder time doing it with them.



Ness is king of turtling IMO. His shield is most threatening because he kills you so easily from it, and his aerials are all wall-y. Whilst not quite as good at keeping you out as Corrin I think he gets more reward for successfully doing so (or rather, punishing your attempts to get in).

With Corrin there I'd say thats a perfect visualisation of top and high tier. People obsess over having like, 10 tiers but the game way is more balanced than that.

If I may continue what you've started;





I honestly feel like mid tier could keep extending to include but I have to draw the line somewhere...

 

[ThatChozoGuy]

With Corrin there I'd say thats a perfect visualisation of top and high tier. People obsess over having like, 10 tiers but the game way is more balanced than that.

If I may continue what you've started;





I honestly feel like mid tier could keep extending to include but I have to draw the line somewhere...

Is actually a Mid Tier ? With all those people saying he reached the High Tier, I don't know what to think anymore.

 

[thehard]

I have the strangest urge to main and discuss the FE characters

 

[Trifroze]

ZSS was pretty much a swordie until 1.1.1. After that she's been able to just keep jumping in your face with nair without caring at all. (´◔ ‿ゝ◔`)

But really, she can be played like one and that style often seems the most efficient with her. She has that bubble and enough disjoints to contest other sword characters, just has to be more precise because of the lack of arc hitboxes. Imagine if fair was a 180 degree whiplash from top to bottom though.

 

[Yonder]

Is actually a Mid Tier ? With all those people saying he reached the High Tier, I don't know what to think anymore.

He is such an odd case for me. Personally I have him at the very bottom of the high tier. Even playing online today as Luigi, a M2 was just trouncing me. His breakneck movement speed plus a reflector and the scariest charged projectile in the game (which also leads to mind games) a horrifyingly good forward air that kills at like 80 depending on positioning off stage or just combos into it self...while being completely safe on shield. An amazing damaging throw and kill throw from anywhere (u throw for anyways not at the edge, b throw at edges) and an incredibly good recovery.Then I tap him with an unchanged D smash as he dies at 110. Making mistakes as M2 really hurts, and his frame data is still not amazing by any means. And he is not avoiding hits super efficiently due to a big hurtbox and no gtfo moves like Luigi's nair. Also his traction is a bit of a shame to make punishes fully optimum. Also his tilts aside from D tilt? They are just...OK (unless you hit the close base with M2s tail...right into u smash) So really I think he struggles with characters with great frame data and kill power, such as Fox, Yoshi (the weight and hard to gimp recovery for him)

Yet he can stand his ground against Bayo, Cloud, and Rosa.

And then I die from a falling nair sucking me into the abyss thanks to his nair hitbox increase.

Also he has results.

Yeah, typing this out I think I'm more confident in calling him high tier, even if at the lower end of it. I certainly think his fantastic neutral and advantage makes him more viable than the jack of all trades Pits.

Sorry Pits (well not Dark Pit heh)

 

[Shaya]

ZSS was pretty much a swordie until 1.1.1. After that she's been able to just keep jumping in your face with nair without caring at all. (´◔ ‿ゝ◔`)

But really, she can be played like one and that style often seems the most efficient with her. She has that bubble and enough disjoints to contest other sword characters, just has to be more precise because of the lack of arc hitboxes. Imagine if fair was a 180 degree whiplash from top to bottom though.

Why do you think I decided to main her sonny?
-December 2014- "WHAT'S MARTH ENOUGH!?"
The killing up-b out of shield probably clutched it; "oh god, YES".

With Corrin there I'd say thats a perfect visualisation of top and high tier. People obsess over having like, 10 tiers but the game way is more balanced than that.

If I may continue what you've started;





I honestly feel like mid tier could keep extending to include but I have to draw the line somewhere...

And with things honestly being less defined by whether or not you get bodied by Sheik, there's a lot less reasons to have splits towards the top of the cast.
At least until we figure out how over powered Bayonetta is.
I'd probably pop Pit down; or push a few chars up (who I feel are roughly the same or better).
I do think him and Greninja, Tink, Falcon, Corn, Rucalio are less 'prominent' then the others there. Tinks kinda encroaching with Hyuga's consistency as a player (+Zan in socal, and him doing well in Nipon) assuming top level players are trying to get better at the match up.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Corrin's like okay, but will ultimately be mostly left behind.

 

[bc1910]

Pit might be more "best mid tier" than "worst high tier" (that'd be Falcon or maybe Corn, jury's still out on Mewtwo) but I do think he's solo viable. There are other characters who are about as good as him but have more roadblocks, such as ROB and DK, and I can't see them as being so high up. Yoshi is potentially as solo viable as Pit but we aren't seeing it, same goes for Ike though his results are a bit better.

I think the remainder of the old top 14 (Ness, Villy, Ryu, MK) is more prominent than the Greninja/Tink crew. Pika probably deserves to come down now... To be honest if people start fighting him properly I don't see MK far behind. But still I would put the aforementioned 4 in upper high and the rest in lower high.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think some of you people are way too liberal with your definition of "viable" if you think Pit and Corrin are solo-viable.

 

[bc1910]

I think some of you people are way too liberal with your definition of "viable" if you think Pit and Corrin are solo-viable.

Earth won a national? If I'm not mistaken.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It was barely more than a local.

Edit: For reference, here are the results of that tournament he won:
http://smashboards.com/threads/japanese-results-compendium.407296/page-4#post-20621548

It was a local, he used Fox as a secondary and he "only" beat Ranai as a top level player.

 

[bc1910]

Yeah I was just about to post the translated bracket: http://challonge.com/PreKVO2016T

He beat Ranai and outplaced Komorikiri and 9B. That's pretty impressive.

The fact he used Fox as a secondary is the only real strike against Pit's solo viability IMO. Though that's a pretty big strike considering this is one of Pit's best results.

 

[Y2Kay]

I've watched a lot of Earth, and I rarely see his fox

and also what happened while I was asleep?

 

[Jucchan]

Yeah I was just about to post the translated bracket: http://challonge.com/PreKVO2016T

He beat Ranai and outplaced Komorikiri and 9B. That's pretty impressive.

The fact he used Fox as a secondary is the only real strike against Pit's solo viability IMO. Though that's a pretty big strike considering this is one of Pit's best results.

Earth literally only used Fox for one game that entire tournament.

 

[bc1910]

Earth literally only used Fox for one game that entire tournament.

In that case I don't think Gheb has made a viable case against Pit's solo viability. And it was a shaky case regardless.

 

[Mario766]

Umm... No.

Shulk's fair is longer than both Cloud's and Ike's (Before anyone gets on my case for this; go and try it yourselves. Shulk's Fair is still better horizontally than Ike's.) Shulk's forward Smash is longer than both of theirs as well. Shulk outranges Ike in literally everything except jab and grab range. Shulk also outranges Cloud in everything, EVEN Nair. I tested all the ranges extensively to come to this conclusion.

And for the record, Shulk can do an instant ledge snap with his up-b AND ledge snap with the second hit.

Stop with the misconceptions please.

If it does, then explain the examples posted that showed Ike's F-Air beating out Shulk's F-Air, at a horizontal distance.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Uh no. He used Fox to beat Paseriman who's the only other notable player he beat at that tournament. What does it matter if he outplaces 9B and Komorikiri when he doesn't beat them? 9B was taken out by Ranai and a "random" Sheik and Komoriki lost to Paseriman and ikep. It has nothing to do with Earth and doesn't have a lot to say about Pit's viability when you beat a Villager and win a Pit ditto.

My point remains. Earth did not win a national with solo Pit. He won a local tournament. He used to Fox to win WF. He beat one top level player, a Villager. That's not proof of anything, let alone Pit's solo-viability.

 

[Nobie]

Keep in mind that Ranai basically trounced Earth like every time before that.

Also, I was thinking about how people talk about Roy's game plan as self-contradicting due to the hilt-based sweet spots and the tip being so weak, but one thing I noticed that they did this time around is make the transition from sweet to sour spot much more forgiving for Roy. Unlike Marth, who only has the tip and the rest of the sword is weak, in many cases a huge portion of Roy's sword counts as the sweet spot. In the case of F-Smash, it has 3 hitboxes 1 especially strong, 1 medium, and 1 weak. It's more like having a sweet spot, an okay spot, and a sour spot, so it's not all-or-nothing like Marth's.