Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

If I could have picked one nerf for Sheik I would have picked the Dthrow 50/50. It doesn't detract from her combat persona but contributes toward giving her a notable weakness. I'm extremely glad it happened.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Apparently it is soooo hard to fix shulks wonky startup

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Apparently it is soooo hard to fix shulks wonky startup

And it's even harder to fix Pac's grab.

Pac-Man was slightly buffed, with all Smashes and Bair gaining KBThingies.
It feels so good to kill at 190%

 

[Tri Knight]

I'm glad a lot of buffs went to lower tiers like Zard. A character like him needed something at least.

Anyway, It's about time Sheik got nerfed. Sheik's will certainly now have to be a lot more careful now that they die very early and lost their 50/50. Her weaknesses will actually show now. The fact that she's supposed to have trouble killing will actually matter in practice now. Sheik's still gonna be great definitely but she won't be unstoppable. I can predict actual bad MU's now finally. Sorry to the Sheik mains but I gotta say, this is a good day to every other character in the game.

 

[Deleted member]

Jiggs is definitely going to be left behind everybody else. Her lack of help from patches combined with still near nonexistent rep in majors and her myriad of issues means she's practically going to suffer the same fate as she did in Brawl unless somebody steps up and does amazing stuff with her, which isn't going to be very likely anyway.

And on Dedede... I see him as bottom 5 at this point as well. His weaknesses are just way too exploitable at top level, and more or less most of the success he gets is off of MU inexperience. Once people do figure out how to fight him fully, he's not going much of a threat. He has disadvantageous MUs against most of the cast except for characters that aren't relevant in the metagame.

And then there were two... what's up with not getting any positive buffs in a year and a half?

Dedede probably has a high winrate on online modes considering Gordos and his large disjointed hitboxes are very hard to deal with on Wi-Fi lag, and in general he's very popular in lower level play. Dunno about Jiggs. I guess Sakurai forgot she was a character in this game.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

It's a bit odd that they nerf some of the top tiers and leave others as is, I guess the idea is to make the gap between the top characters and the others smaller but the way they've done it means it'll only really make the characters who've escaped significant nerfs more dominant than anything else. Of course it's too early to judge just how much this patch has impacted certain characters, but my initial reaction is that they'll eventually have to nerf Rosalina and Bayonetta in a future patch, otherwise they'll be far too good.

 

[teddystalin]

Can we take a moment to consider the nerfs? Not since vanilla or have I seen a character so unfairly nerfed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining - I think Corrin is obnoxious. But whilst she was doing well, she wasn't dominating like Cloud. As a slow-ish character anyway she's gonna feel those mobility nerfs.

Greninja's nerfs were a lot more damaging but at least they were somewhat justified. I remember one conquest in particular where he had more wins than Sheik and Sonic combined. He won tons of offline stuff in Japan as well. I can't imagine Corrin's win rate is THAT high.

Greninja and D3's nerfs were still a lot more unfair overall but I'd say this is less fair for Corrin than it was for Luigi.

Eh, FE characters are really popular at the low/mid levels of play. Wouldn't shock me if Corrin had a skewed W/L ratio on FG. His/her gameplan is still completely intact, so I'm not really worried about his/her future. If the reduced damage on aerials leads to wider combo windows, it means that the damage nerfs will be felt more on the lower end of things. Not too worried about mobility nerfs - it's not as though Corrin's mobility was ever all that great (I play Villager too; I obviously don't care that much.) So long as side-b is untouched, Corrin is going to be fine. Maybe not top tier or anything, but fine.

 

[bc1910]

Zelda's still bad guys.

Her Ftilt is a damn good move though.

Eh, FE characters are really popular at the low/mid levels of play. Wouldn't shock me if Corrin had a skewed W/L ratio on FG. His/her gameplan is still completely intact, so I'm not really worried about his/her future. If the reduced damage on aerials leads to wider combo windows, it means that the damage nerfs will be felt more on the lower end of things. Not too worried about mobility nerfs - it's not as though Corrin's mobility was ever all that great (I play Villager too; I obviously don't care that much.) So long as side-b is untouched, Corrin is going to be fine. Maybe not top tier or anything, but fine.

The damage nerfs will be felt all around her gameplan I think. Nair is still stupid but bear in mind Uair won't be killing as early now.

Her mobility was never good, but she's just lost pretty much all her follow-ups from DFS except tipper Fsmash at the perfect range.

I agree that she'll be okay since her most important tool (Side B) is still intact but she certainly won't be top tier. I thought ZeRo overrated her at #11 anyway and I don't see her being far above #20 now.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

It was pretty ridiculous how many mid tiers and high tiers suffered just because of a bad sheik matchup. Look at the pits. They're pretty straightforward and are just generally good. How many pit metagame discussion posts do you think there were talking about how he could never be a tier because of the sheik matchup? Probably pages.

 

[NotLiquid]

Peach's loss of a decent auto-cancel UAir on grounded opponents makes me sad. Even if it was a matter of snuffing out an infinite it feels like that balance change could have been done better. It was a pretty decent pressure tool and considering where she resides in the meta, she's not going to benefit from having options removed.

That said I guess the silver lining here is that her worst match up (Meta Knight) is no longer such a ridiculous landslide, even if I feel sorry for MK mains suffering such an extreme loss. Wonder how she benefits from other top tier nerfs.

 

[Shaya]

Trifroze it's the hitbox size, and it's the one that's close to us, rather than the smaller one at our max range.
Total damage of side-b going up 3.1% isn't something to scoff at either.

I think the only out of place obvious top tier stars are Cloud and perhaps Rosalina - if it wasn't for the fact that the match up is currently pretty bad for her.

20FF:
Somewhat ordered:

Is ZSS better than Sheik now? Well... maybe?
Do any of the somewhat crew actually have non-disadvantaged match ups against Cloud?
Zero Suit and Sheik have the best claim for it still despite their nerfs (their edge plays weren't hit)

Is Bayonetta worse off than I expect?

Iono
they all seem kinda one big blurry blob to me now.
ZSS may still prove to be in the toppity areas. Sheik nerfs help her more than just about everything else. Only Clud would otherwise look forward to nerfs to Sheik this much as a top tier.
Sonic had issues with all the nerfed characters, so we may see him breaking into regionals/majors again.

 

[Nobie]

Trifroze it's the hitbox size, and it's the one that's close to us, rather than the smaller one at our max range.
Total damage of side-b going up 3.1% isn't something to scoff at either.

I think the only out of place obvious top tier stars are Cloud and perhaps Rosalina - if it wasn't for the fact that the match up is currently pretty bad for her.

20FF:
Somewhat ordered:

Is ZSS better than Sheik now? Well... maybe?
Do any of the somewhat crew actually have non-disadvantaged match ups against Cloud?
Zero Suit and Sheik have the best claim for it still despite their nerfs (their edge plays weren't hit)

Is Bayonetta worse off than I expect?

Iono
they all seem kinda one big blurry blob to me now.
ZSS may still prove to be in the toppity areas. Sheik nerfs help her more than just about everything else. Only Clud would otherwise look forward to nerfs to Sheik this much as a top tier.
Sonic had issues with all these nerfs characters, and we may see him breaking into regionals/majors again.

The fact that Komorikiri kind of took a dump on Bayonettas (AS SONIC) at the last Sumabato might help as well.

 

[L9999]

Since Rosaluma will run scott free, RIP Ness, hello pocket Cloud. At least Sheik is more plausible...

 

[TTTTTsd]

Trifroze it's the hitbox size, and it's the one that's close to us, rather than the smaller one at our max range.
Total damage of side-b going up 3.1% isn't something to scoff at either.

I think the only out of place obvious top tier stars are Cloud and perhaps Rosalina - if it wasn't for the fact that the match up is currently pretty bad for her.

20FF:
Somewhat ordered:

Is ZSS better than Sheik now? Well... maybe?
Do any of the somewhat crew actually have non-disadvantaged match ups against Cloud?
Zero Suit and Sheik have the best claim for it still despite their nerfs (their edge plays weren't hit)

Is Bayonetta worse off than I expect?

Iono
they all seem kinda one big blurry blob to me now.
ZSS may still prove to be in the toppity areas. Sheik nerfs help her more than just about everything else. Only Clud would otherwise look forward to nerfs to Sheik this much as a top tier.
Sonic had issues with all these nerfs characters, and we may see him breaking into regionals/majors again.

Yeah like, assuming they reasonably adjust Cloud our top tiers have a much less stupid power level right now overall. I think the game's genuinely improved a little at the cost of some things I really don't like seeing change (Meta Knight, etc.). That being said if they leave Cloud unaltered prepare for continual stupidity.

I doubt M2K will stop using him in tournament and if he does that would be greatly unfortunate but we still have Tweek and the slew of other Clouds performing right now.

 

[BSP]

And it's even harder to fix Pac's grab.

Pac-Man was slightly buffed, with all Smashes and Bair gaining KBThingies.
It feels so good to kill at 190%

I'm glad Pac-Man got something, but they didn't hit his actual problems. He still can't scare you into not holding shield if you think you're going to die.

Aside from that, am I the only one notvseeing an in game change to F and U smash's KO potential?

The be on competitive topic: the top tier nerfs help Pac-Man indirectly like most of the cast, but his worst MUs haven't changed. The slight KBG buffs are nice, but they didn't address his core issues. Cloud, Mario, and Lucario are likely to still be his biggest hurdles.

Oh and Cloud can never one shot the hydrant back with Uair now so that's something. Edit : corrin can't one shot it with her projectile anymore either.

 

[Shaya]

Since Rosaluma will run scott free

20FF...

The fact that Komorikiri kind of took a dump on Bayonettas (AS SONIC) at the last Sumabato might help as well.

I saw 9B essentially suicide most of his stocks when Komo used Sonic in grand finals.
Not sure about their winner's set, but I don't know how that set went beyond Komo winning it (apparently with Cloud).

 

[BunbUn129]

Peach's loss of a decent auto-cancel UAir on grounded opponents makes me sad. Even if it was a matter of snuffing out an infinite it feels like that balance change could have been done better. It was a pretty decent pressure tool and considering where she resides in the meta, she's not going to benefit from having options removed.

That said I guess the silver lining here is that her worst match up (Meta Knight) is no longer such a ridiculous landslide, even if I feel sorry for MK mains suffering such an extreme loss. Wonder how she benefits from other top tier nerfs.

Thank you. It's reassuring to see that people generally understand the nerf was unnecessary, misguided, and unfortunate.

Whatever happens, I won't be dropping my character. If Leo, Ito, Tyrant, and Abadango don't drop him, there's no reason for me to. Three of them brought him to where he was before the nerf, and we can only keep trudging on.

This nerf makes Meta Knight restart the cycle of life. He started as a mid-tier, shot up into the high and then top-tier, and is now a high-tier. We now lost a valuable tool, but dedicated MK players will see the true value of his neutral game and edge-guarding, and I think the nerfs to Sheik will allow us to grow more in different areas.

Look to the future, Meta Knight mains!

And who knows? We might just find another deadly set-up. And, hey! MK's fair is now a decent neutral option, and is very welcome as it forces opponents to respect his front more.

 

[FullMoon]

Let's admire the fact that our new best character is the one whose game never actually was in a Nintendo console.

 

[Fex13]

i feel like competitive smash4 is going to be extremely boring to watch withrosaluma and bayo at the top for the forseeable future...

 

[BunbUn129]

i feel like competitive smash4 is going to be extremely boring to watch withrosaluma and bayo at the top for the forseeable future...

Many people are already missing . It's funny how we all flip-flop from different opinions on characters.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@ those saying Sheik is no longer the best

Zero has been able to pull of the same 50/50s as before. https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/709942253037424640

I don't think she's necessarily lost her crown, slow down a bit there. And don't forget that Bayo got nerfed as well along with ZSS. Rosalina didn't but she was always the most suspect/weakest of the queens and well, she still has her bad MUs.

I'll wait for tournaments to show how things have shaken out but I'm not convinced the ordering at the top has changed. Maybe Rosalina and Cloud both move up a spot (in Cloud's case, up a spot in the "top 4-8" range most people have him not the official list spot), but I don't think there is going to be a major shake up.

 

[Fex13]

Many people are already missing . It's funny how we all flip-flop from different opinions on characters.

i mean, those sheik and zss combos and strings and so on were at least nice to watch. the angles on sheiks throws now killed many of those dope to watch combos...im not even joking. im really concerned for smash 4 now. nobody is interested in seeing rosaluma or how defensive players have to fight bayonetta. and i feel there will be quite a few people dropping sheik/zss for bayo...oh boy, bayo didnt do the game any good, sry. dont hate me for this. but she made the game a little awkward so far at high level. the buffs for the low/midtiers werent good enough to make them stand a chance against rosa/bayo and the other high/top tiers. so all this patch did, was to support extremelyyyyyyy lame matches. rip spectator sport...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@ those saying Sheik is no longer the best

Zero has been able to pull of the same 50/50s as before. https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/709942253037424640

This is in training mode against a CPU so there's no rage and no DI factoring in. Try to replicate this against a human opponent who knows the correct DI inputs.

 

[BunbUn129]

i mean, those sheik and zss combos and strings and so on were at least nice to watch. the angles on sheiks throws now killed many of those dope to watch combos...im not even joking. im really concerned for smash 4 now. nobody is interested in seeing rosaluma or how defensive players have to fight bayonetta. and i feel there will be quite a few people dropping sheik/zss for bayo...oh boy, bayo didnt do the game any good, sry. dont hate me for this. but she made the game a little awkward so far at high level. the buffs for the low/midtiers werent good enough to make them stand a chance against rosa/bayo and the other high/top tiers. so all this patch did, was to support extremelyyyyyyy lame matches. rip spectator sport...

The removal of all these combos is because Sakurai wants to force us to KO with smash attacks. He really doesn't have the capacity to develop a game that resonates with both casuals AND competitive players. Some might disagree, but I'd totally like to have someone else develop the next Smash game.

Well, I guess we could all go play Melee and never have to worry about nerfs!

 

[bc1910]

@ those saying Sheik is no longer the best

Zero has been able to pull of the same 50/50s as before. https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/709942253037424640

I don't think she's necessarily lost her crown, slow down a bit there. And don't forget that Bayo got nerfed as well along with ZSS. Rosalina didn't but she was always the most suspect/weakest of the queens and well, she still has her bad MUs.

I'll wait for tournaments to show how things have shaken out but I'm not convinced the ordering at the top has changed. Maybe Rosalina and Cloud both move up a spot (in Cloud's case, up a spot in the "top 4-8" range most people have him not the official list spot), but I don't think there is going to be a major shake up.

That was with no DI.

With away or up+away DI I am almost certain it won't work, or at least the window will be extremely tight. Sheik's Dthrow is slow and easy to DI as well.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Interesting how in a game where shields are so op, the serious contenders for best character have bad grab games. Huh.

I honestly think it's way to early to start calling bayo or cloud #1. With the amount of high tiers who's "price just went up" (as dj khaled would put it) from the sheik nerf, the S tier is gonna have more competition.

There are hundreds of sheik mains who are gonna be looking for a fast aerial-based aggressive fighter with solid grab combos, and neither bayo nor cloud fit this archetype that well, perhaps the latter a bit better. All these sheik mains are probably going to flock to either diddy, pikachu, ness (eh) or mario, and the metas of the aforementioned characters are going to develop significantly these next few months.

 

[Tri Knight]

Interesting how in a game where shields are so op, the serious contenders for best character have bad grab games. Huh.

I honestly think it's way to early to start calling bayo or cloud #1. With the amount of high tiers who's "price just went up" (as dj khaled would put it) from the sheik nerf, the S tier is gonna have more competition.

There are hundreds of sheik mains who are gonna be looking for a fast aerial-based aggressive fighter with solid grab combos, and neither bayo nor cloud fit this archetype that well, perhaps the latter a bit better. All these sheik mains are probably going to flock to either diddy, pikachu, ness (eh) or mario, and the metas of the aforementioned characters are going to develop significantly these next few months.

People are complaining but this is a good thing. Because yes, let's go back to Melee so we can watch Fox vs Fox vs Marth vs Falco vs Fox vs Sheik every single match. That to me is boring as hell.

Even if it came down to it, and the grab game as we know it will be nerfed, which i doubt.... Fishing for Smash attacks, one mistake WILL get you killed and the tension and excitement that goes along with it is much more interesting to watch than D-throw to U-air to miss to more D-throws to U-B.

But again, I doubt grab combos will cease to exist because that would be stupid as well. Sakurai probably does want more focus to Smash attacks but grabs were put in for a reason. There needs to be punishment for sitting in shield.

 

[Fex13]

the real winner of this patch is not cloud. i think it is diddy kong. people are still sleeping on him a little. imo, he is top 3

 

[TDK]

Wow. Just wow. Sheik nerfed, ZSS nerfed, MK nerfed, Mewtwo Buffed, (Literally the day after I pick him up <3) Rosa untouched.

New top 3:

Not in any order. If Mewtwo wasn't high tier before he is now.

 

[momochuu]

I still think MK's nerf is the most brutal one seen in the history of this game. A lot of his stuff just does not work without that uair.

 

[Trifroze]

What's this idea of Bayonetta suddenly stomping everyone? Witch time got bopped pretty hard, and her capabilities (as a top tier) were arguable to begin with.

 

[BunbUn129]

MetaKing, an editor on smashwiki, is holding a funeral for our beloved knight on his user page.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/User:MetaKing

RIP Smash 4 Meta Knight
July 27th, 2015-March 15th, 2016

You will live on, and we will carry on your legacy, the legacy of an unmatched warrior.

Note: after playing for a while, I can conclude that his game plan is heavily dysfunctional without his up aerial, momochuu . How can you have a bait-and-punish character and then nerf the punishes but slightly improve the neutral?

It's official, everyone: Meta Knight just got hit with the Luigi.

 

[Nexus Nova]

Isn't it a bit of an exaggeration to be saying that Cloud, Rosalina and Bayonetta are the top characters?
We still haven't seen how the nerfs majorly affects Sheik, Zero Suit and MK in tournaments yet.

 

[Nabbitnator]

So what about ryu?

 

[bc1910]

It's official, everyone: Meta Knight just got hit with the Luigi.

Nah.

They both got 'd.

 

[Nobie]

The removal of all these combos is because Sakurai wants to force us to KO with smash attacks. He really doesn't have the capacity to develop a game that resonates with both casuals AND competitive players. Some might disagree, but I'd totally like to have someone else develop the next Smash game.

Well, I guess we could all go play Melee and never have to worry about nerfs!

Street Fighter V is designed such that fast, weak attacks do not combo while slower, stronger attacks do. Would you say that SFV is also a game that doesn't understand competitive players?

Also I know people are lamenting Meta Knight's elevator combo, but holy crap do people believe that MK can't kill without it?

Straight up SHUTTLE LOOP FROM THE GROUND was already a decent kill move. F-smash is f-smash. He still has a horizontal gimping game which was all but ignored because MK could send people to heaven. Catching an opponent with MACH TORNADO at high altitudes can even net KOs as well.

 

[Tri Knight]

Isn't it a bit of an exaggeration to be saying that Cloud, Rosalina and Bayonetta are the top characters?
We still haven't seen how the nerfs majorly affects Sheik, Zero Suit and MK in tournaments yet.

The thing with MK is that Up air was literally his bread and butter. He converted a lot off of that and not only was one of his primary combos, but also his primary kill set up. And that's gone. He got hit by a train this patch.

 

[BunbUn129]

Street Fighter V is designed such that fast, weak attacks do not combo while slower, stronger attacks do. Would you say that SFV is also a game that doesn't understand competitive players?

Yet Street Fighter V doesn't have a percent mechanic that affects the combo potential of moves. These two fighting games have so many differences at the fundamental level that you simply can't draw the comparison.

Tri Knight it goes to show that nerfing one move can be enough to ruin a character.

 

[Nobie]

Yet Street Fighter V doesn't have a percent mechanic that affects the combo potential of moves. These two fighting games have so many differences at the fundamental level that you simply can't draw the comparison.

My point wasn't about the combos. Your complaint was about having to use smash attacks to take stocks, as if that's some terrible idea. SFV doesn't have the distinction between damage and KOs, but it has a similar reward system. If you want to be safe and poke and deal bits of damage, you use your jab. If you want to take a slight risk for bigger damage and a better chance to end the round, go for your strong or fierce. Similarly, it's not that weird to have a game where safe attacks are for building up damage and riskier attacks are for KOing.

 

[Tri Knight]

It's not even MK's killing potential that I'm worried about. It's his neutral.