Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TurboLink]

It reflects poorly on smash that when our game finally gets lasting support, our top players are clearly so not used to an actually supported game that they complain about a 1% nerf on clearly, ridiculously STILL polarizing and excessively powerful moves.

In other games, that sort of ******** is relegated to the middle level players. Smash is still immature in this way, and its embarrassing to see. They are allowed to vent all they want, but its a public forum they are venting on so we can have opinions on it, we don't just pretend it isn't happening.

...

So, who are the biggest winners? Rosalina, Greninja, Mewtwo, Mario... Sonic?

Who's complaining? I haven't seen anyone complain yet.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Finish playing through Twilight Princess HD to find a new patch, let's go.

That isn't a true combo.

So what? Would you rather have nothing? Utilize it the best you can. Find more options. Hit the lab man, find what you can.
On another note, Meta Knight's uair had its SDI modifier changed to 1.5 from 1.0. Seems like a little bit of a push for us to get workin' on our SDI in this game. Definitely something I'd like to see implemented a little more regardless.

Many characters were buffed indirectly by the nerfing of most of the characters that were considered top tier. Sheik might actually have some slightly disadvantaged match ups now with the potential for her to have an actually exploitable weakness in her weight and lack of kill power. Something tells me that the 50/50 from dthrow won't go away entirely though and may just be a bit more focused around a fthrow 50/50 (something that already existed before but was overshadowed by dthrow. both throws have been changed however so only time will tell). ZSS immediately seems more upper high tier than top tier now. Keep pushing her ZSS mains. Cloud got a slap on the wrist. Bayonetta lost some safety. She can't hide behind Witch Time as well anymore, though it's still a threat, and it seems like it'll be a bit more realistic to punish side b by shield grabbing.
Are we sure some of the Corrin nerfs weren't actually buffs a la C. Falcon uair? Maybe a slight improvement to her combo game?

Time to get labbin' everybody. Don't drop your top tier mains just cause they got nerfed. Keep at it.

 

[warionumbah2]

So what? Would you rather have nothing? Utilize it the best you can. Find more options. Hit the lab man, find what you can.

Just pointing out whats clearly not true, when has Dair --> Dair --> Dair ever been a true combo?

Edit: MKs are obviously labbing stuff there's already things being discovered. The drones will dip and those who crave to evolve will stay(with a new secondary of course).

 

[Aife]

Are we sure some of the Corrin nerfs weren't actually buffs a la C. Falcon uair? Maybe a slight improvement to her combo game?

I think I have heard things about that; specifically about her fair. But overall its a nerf. U-air was a killing move more then a combo move, counter was reduced in power and in ending frames, and so was dragon shot (No reason to fully charge it now?)
Unless there are some super special combo techs I don't know about, I don't think Corrin was compensated for the nerf with better combo potential. Whether that's a good or a bad thing I won't give an opinion on though. I'll watch you guys debate it instead.

 

[ARGHETH]

Are we sure some of the Corrin nerfs weren't actually buffs a la C. Falcon uair? Maybe a slight improvement to her combo game?

DFS was definitely a nerf. Fully charged combos doesn't combo into much now, afaik. Uair's a nerf because that was one of our kill moves. Nair and Fair KG reduction probably helped them combo better, but honestly they comboed fine before.

It reflects poorly on smash that when our game finally gets lasting support, our top players are clearly so not used to an actually supported game that they complain about a 1% nerf on clearly, ridiculously STILL polarizing and excessively powerful moves.

In other games, that sort of ******** is relegated to the middle level players. Smash is still immature in this way, and its embarrassing to see. They are allowed to vent all they want, but its a public forum they are venting on so we can have opinions on it, we don't just pretend it isn't happening.

Dude. That a little strong a reaction to someone saying they thought their character was overnerfed, don't you think? Especially for a first reaction, and especially for someone like M2K, who, from what I can tell, has a...problem with these kind of things.
Also, is this even a green or yellow topic? Because I'm getting a feeling we're approaching red territory.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Corrin's Nair -> Bair a bit easier to do now, so that's something at least.

 

[Fatmanonice]

And then there were two... what's up with not getting any positive buffs in a year and a half?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Or Yoshi...

 

[bc1910]

Agreeing that M2 run speed buff is being overhyped. Whilst it's neat, he is in no way the new Sonic. He already ran pretty fast last patch. Weight buff is also pretty insignificant as he's still ligher than G&W, not to mention huge.

The Sheik weight nerf (84 > 81) is actually somewhat notable as stuff has started killing her ~5% earlier, which I would say is approaching "significant".

Though I do find it amusing that if Mewtwo is the 5th fastest runner then he's faster than Greninja which means he's faster than Brawl Fox.

EDIT: Apparently M2 is 7th fastest runner, just behind Greninja.

I think people saying that Lucario vs Sheik is anywhere near even are really only getting this idea in their heads because Lucario mains are so few and far between that you never really get to Lab against the character. You could ask the Lucario boards, but most of them seem to believe the match is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of -1.5. If you play against or as him enough you begin to see how easy his kit is to read.

He relies entirely on you falling for Mix-Ups and baits, but when you see them enough it gets much easier to not fall for them.

This looks pretty funny now. Lucario > Sheik is a distinct possibility.

In spite of these nerfs, there still appears to be some hope for Sheik mains:

@AllyOrNotAlly I already thought of new sheik kill confirms, thanks for the info

— Void (@gsmVoiD) March 16, 2016

Just a note that there are no "new" Sheik kill confirms if I'm reading these notes correctly, just kill confirms that she didn't have to use before and will have to use now. Nothing about her was buffed (except her still-terrible Dsmash) and her throws send at categorically worse angles. She didn't even get damage reductions for potentially new combos at new percents.

VoiD is an absolute champ for sticking with her though, serious props. I will be doing the same.

She will still be top 5/10 for the forseeable anyway.

 

[my_T]

@Dre89 I'd say huge normals with intangible limbs and really solid frame data (dtilt and utilt back hitbox specifically) make him above average in neutral. Partly offset with a giant hurtbox, of course.


Like so many things in this game, its really MU dependent. His neutral feels great in many MUs, but in his tough ones it feels like it falls short. Neutral itself is a gamestate that is hard to 'rank', since the efficacy of your tools is directly tied to the properties of your opponent.

his neutral is not above average. If anything it's below average.

This intangibility that you speak of is not as big a deal as you might think. Some of you probably think he can just swing his arms and blow through anything but that's not the case. His tilts clink with grounded moves for whatever reason; probably game mechanics. When the opponent is on the ground dtilt is the only one that is threatening in neutral because it's fast and relatively safe. Ftilt and Uptilt are too slow or unsafe to to be of much use in neutral. Throwing out utilt or ftilt in neutral without a successful hit will likely put you at frame disadvantage, thus losing neutral. He also has ****ty OoS options allowing many characters to abuse his shield with low cool-down pokes ESPECIALLY IF YOU CROSS HIS SHIELD OR GET BEHIND HIM. His dodge roll is also kinda bad because his huge hurtbox makes it easy to knock him out of his roll. I would give anything to have a dodge roll like the pits or little mac; it does wonders for their neutral.On top of that his specials are all extremely laggy in terms of both start-up and end-lag. Giant Punch is the only one with little cool down but has one of the longest charges in the game and you can't cancel the charge immediately like you can with the other charge moves in the game; this makes him very predictable when he is charging unlike clouds limit charge or samus charge shot being that they both can cancel immediately and have solid OoS options. He has a ****ty dash grab. Dash attack has too much end-lag to just throw it out in neutral. Bair is good but not abusable like sheik fair, ZSS nair. DK's bair requires a bit of commitment. Jab 1 is decent but also not abusable.

TL;DR-the only things DK really has going for him in neutral are:

Dtilt-pretty safe, fast, long-ranged and low cool-down

Advanced movement-fox trot, extended dash dance, perfect pivot

Pivot grab-ton of range, beats a lot of options (use with caution)

Bair-ton of range (use with caution, mainly to stuff aerial approaches)

Everything else is too risky

Back to the intangibility thing. The only time the intangibility really shows is when DK is using his tilts to contest with aerials because they don't clink. Also when it comes to DK's tilts vs aerials it depends on who can reach the others hurtbox first. Take the sword characters for example. Because DK is only intangible on his arm and has an absurdly large hurt box it's not hard for the sword characters to reach his hurtbox before DK reaches theirs. In my experience i find myself either trading or getting hit against characters with long ranged, disjointed melee attacks for their aerials. So yeah, the intangibility is nice in one scenario but underwhelming in grounded scenarios thanks to the game mechanics.

 

[bc1910]

I'm so pissed that I have to wait like 10 hours before I can download this patch. Maybe I can get it at lunch... As a Greninja/Sheik main I have very mixed feelings so far.

I wouldn't say Sheik was "gutted" but I don't see how she's killing a soul. BF just got even better, Nair BF and BF edgeguards look like her only options now.

Kinda have my eyes now on Sonic and Greninja. Their worst MUs should be much better now and Greninjas buffs are kinda frightening...

Any buffs I'm not aware of? I know about DA startup, standing grab startup and HP headbonk. Apparently his Fair and Bair landing lags have been decreased but this is awaiting confirmation. EDIT: Confirmed Fair landing lag 18 > 15 and Bair 16 > 13. That's... actually really nice. Takes Fair to -5 on shield.

Nothing gamechanging IMO. Standing grab is still a slower OoS option than jab. It would need another 3 frames off the startup to be significantly better. Being faster than point-blank tether grabs is nice though. Also grab's endlag was apparently adjusted accordingly but DA's wasn't, so DA now has 29 total frames making it the overall fastest DA in the game.

The biggest buff comes in the form of Sheik nerfs. I'll reserve judgement until I play the MU, on paper needles still look like a pain but Sheik is really going to struggle to end our stocks.

I'm not expecting a significant rise in Greninja usage - there never is. Nothing here is as significant as the Shuriken re-buff. For Greninja to experience a proper usage spike he'd need a real "top tier" buff like improved throws or the restoration of Usmash/Hydro Pump. These QoL changes are sort of a pat on the back for those of us who stuck with him.

I still think he beats Bayo. And does decently against Cloud (no worse than -1). If the Sheik MU has improved and/or she falls in usage, Greninja's position in the meta will strengthen whether or not his usage increases.

 

[Shaya]

So, in theory -

ZSS's plasma whip is now 4 frames safer on shield.
So -18.
And has pushed it to be not punishable, even power shielded, by Sonic/Fox.
The caveat being it's max range though.
It can kill at the ledge feasibly too.

Damage output is less.
Down throw sends no where at 0.
The end game of relying on back air to get stocks will be more difficult.
Back throw is kinda useless.

Death combos still work, just at later percent.
Possibly for smaller windows.
But they're still "the same".

Nair and Up Air are 1 frame less safe on shield, both -4 now.
Jab/spot dodge still a-okay~

-

Sheik's fair having range nerfed
but Meta Knight having forward air become 4 frames safer (-13 now)
suddenly may make this match up not as disastrous?
Who knows.

 

[Browny]

Oh look more people going nuts over Mewtwo living a whopping 2% later and running a tiny bit faster (considering he spends to much time in the air) and going on about how viable he is, but I've finally figured it out!

The reason why people think Mewtwo has been super buffed (possibly more than anyone in the game) and has gone from bottom tier to potentially high tier is a snowball effect of putting the cursor onto mewtwo and pressing the A button. When people do this (which is a true combo at all %'s btw and has been possible since release day) they quickly realise how powerful and long ranged many of his attacks are and how strong uthrow actually is. When people pull this cursor + a combo off in front of other people, they are inspired to try it themselves and the characters viability rises.

This is in stark contrast to 2015 when people put their cursor over sheik and pressed A before saying Mewtwo was a bottom tier character.

That combo has been developed so far, it literally defines the character now.

---

Mewtwo has been buffed a lot no doubt, but the Japanese knew from day 1 that he was always at least mid-tier because they actually pioneered that combo months before USA did.

I'm really tired of seeing people go on about how all these new things are possible with his buffs when you could do them on release day and its not like these buffs dragged him up 30 tier spots, thats ludicrous. He was always mid tier, hes probably gone up 15 or so spots because of it.

 

[arbustopachon]

So Zard's air speed is faster, he has less landinglag, he is heavier and his aerials do more damage.
(Plus sheik and zzs got nerfed)

Zard's new bair is so good, it has a massive range, it's frame 14, it's almost as strong as his f-smash and it only has 24 frames of landing lag.

Also we have roughly pikachu's airspeed wich in combination to our new stupidly scary aerials should make landing a lot easier.

We now low tier boys!!!

 

[Wintermelon43]

And suddenly out of nowhere, Sheik was falling into an endless Void..........

Anyway, you guys are forgetting the most important thing....... Who's the best character now?

imo, or

I don't know much Bayonetta's matchup zpread, but didn't she lose to Sheik and ZSS? If so, she got indirect buffs and could be first now

Rosalina had a bad matchup aganist Meta Knight, now that's fixed (Still not Rosa's favor for sure, but still, isn't bad anymore). Sheik and apprantatly ZSS were fairly bad, and now those are even or Rosa's favor. Cloud was as bad as Meta Knight mainly due to limit, and that was slightly nerfed too (But the matchup is still bad)

imo S tier right now is (). Pretty balanced S tier considering it's three characters and the order isn't even confirmed.

 

[BunbUn129]

To those of you who do not properly understand the implications of this change to Meta Knight, which will be most of you, I'll spell it out.

The goal with this change was not to remove his death combo. He now has the potential to do it even more consistently. The goal was to give it an appropriate risk reward ratio. Now if Meta Knight wants to combo the opponent to death and he is close to the ledge, he needs to choose between suiciding or sealing the game with the remaining stock he has, or lose a stock or the game in the process.

Enjoy.

I've seen opinions across the board about MK.

So can another educated MK main tell me simply: has this nerf destroyed him or what?

 

[Peppermint1201]

There may be more, but it's strange that and are the least changed characters, getting basically no buffs or nerfs past the game's early lifespan. ROB has been completely unchanged since his upthrow got nerfed. #CharizardStoleOurUpthrow

Are these characters really the balance team's perception of well-rounded? I can understand ROB and Yoshi but they must think Jiggs and Dedede are at least decent if they've been this stagnant. I'm not saying they're correct, but it's something to think about.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I don't main Meta Knight, but imo this makes him top of high tier. Note that there are some sets from Tyrant where he uses the up air to up b combo only once or twice and still wins. Ito and Leo are like this too.

Abadango's gonna be garbage though, lol. Told you you should've stayed with Pac-Man, didn't I?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I really hate to see the best character become dlc, but I suppose right now it's hard to argue bayo or cloud being number one. It's also hard to see sheik stay now after losing her only kill confirm.

I actually think the s tier of this game is gonna look a lot more crowded with sheik going down. I can easily see a tiers who were previously bodied by her such as diddy, Ryu or perhaps even fox move up to the s tier.

Upon seeing the placement of the dlc characters and patch notes, I was initially worried that this game would start suffering the power creep. But I'm actually starting to think the opposite. This patch really frees up a lot of the cast.

 

[ARISTOS]

is the very obvious winner here, with coming in next.

With Cloud's worst MUs nerfed I don't see what will keep him from being at the top of the meta; he already has the wins to prove it.

Old threats like who suffered in the buffed meta may also enjoy a renaissance, possibly.

I'm mainly glad balancing will continue into the future

 

[outfoxd]

The Duck Hunt buff leads me to believe they have no idea how to really fix his smashes. Or they are meant to be inaccurate by design.

Then again Dandy took top 8 so i should shut up.

 

[bc1910]

Ryu never did badly against Sheik. Her nerfs don't help him particularly. Can't pretend to be well-versed in his other MUs so maybe the ZSS nerfs help.

Can we take a moment to consider the nerfs? Not since vanilla or have I seen a character so unfairly nerfed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining - I think Corrin is obnoxious. But whilst she was doing well, she wasn't dominating like Cloud. As a slow-ish character anyway she's gonna feel those mobility nerfs.

Greninja's nerfs were a lot more damaging but at least they were somewhat justified. I remember one conquest in particular where he had more wins than Sheik and Sonic combined. He won tons of offline stuff in Japan as well. I can't imagine Corrin's win rate is THAT high.

Greninja and D3's nerfs were still a lot more unfair overall but I'd say this is less fair for Corrin than it was for Luigi.

 

[Xandercosm]

Oh look more people going nuts over Mewtwo living a whopping 2% later and running a tiny bit faster (considering he spends to much time in the air) and going on about how viable he is, but I've finally figured it out!

The reason why people think Mewtwo has been super buffed (possibly more than anyone in the game) and has gone from bottom tier to potentially high tier is a snowball effect of putting the cursor onto mewtwo and pressing the A button. When people do this (which is a true combo at all %'s btw and has been possible since release day) they quickly realise how powerful and long ranged many of his attacks are and how strong uthrow actually is. When people pull this cursor + a combo off in front of other people, they are inspired to try it themselves and the characters viability rises.

This is in stark contrast to 2015 when people put their cursor over sheik and pressed A before saying Mewtwo was a bottom tier character.

That combo has been developed so far, it literally defines the character now.

---

Mewtwo has been buffed a lot no doubt, but the Japanese knew from day 1 that he was always at least mid-tier because they actually pioneered that combo months before USA did.

I'm really tired of seeing people go on about how all these new things are possible with his buffs when you could do them on release day and its not like these buffs dragged him up 30 tier spots, thats ludicrous. He was always mid tier, hes probably gone up 15 or so spots because of it.

I agree. This phenomenon seems to happen with a lot of characters. We just ignore their viability because one pro player said they suck in a Tweet or something. Mewtwo has always had a plethora of great qualities: Range, power, combos, etc. He's never been terrible. I think what turned a lot of people away is just how exaggeratedly light he is. It's scary to pioneer a character that, at first, might feel so unpredictable.

 

[Nobie]

The Mewtwo weight buff isn't much by itself, but the fact that most of the top tier got their damage reduced on a bunch of moves compounds with the buff to make Mewtwo live just a bit longer.

I think that's what all the weight buffs/nerfs are there to do in general. Your character might not survive in 50% more situations than they used to, but maybe it's 10% more situations, and that 10% can be the difference between victory and defeat.

Walk speed I'm actually excited about because the run speed buff from 1.1.3 actually made it more difficult to land pivot f-tilts with Mewtwo. Now, I think it might be possible to substitute walk back pivot f-tilt for it to aid Mewtwo's spacing.

Also let's talk about Mewtwo Up Smash getting an endlag buff? Move lasts a long time still but making it less punishable even by just a bit is a huge boon.

Actually, the real scary winner of this patch, I feel, is ZELDA.

Zelda f-tilt went from frame 12 to frame 10, and now finishes on frame 37 instead of frame 39. This attack is about as strong as a decent SMASH ATTACK (kills Mario on FD in starting position at 110%), recovers faster than Mario's up smash, and is as fast as the fastest f-smashes in the game.

Grab range buff is noticeable too. Characters kind of teleport into her hands from a small distance.

Jab is still slow, but getting 11% as a rewarf for just jabbing is significant when Zelda now has f-tilt as a reliable (spammable?) kill move. it's like Zelda's jab is a tilt and Zelda's tilt is a really good smash attack.

 

[Smog Frog]

with getting buffed, is the definite worst in the game now?

 

[Xandercosm]

And just noticed MK got nerfed... Time to drop my second favorite character in the game who I love with all my heart...

 

[Das Koopa]

I'll put in bets and say Rosalina's probably the best. Unless we've seen all of Bayo's nerfs, then maybe she might be

with getting buffed, is the definite worst in the game now?

Puff is the worst imo.

 

[G. Stache]

Geez, I woke up to a new patch, and I gotta say, it's looking like Christmas morning for me. Sheik and ZSS nerfs are looking good to me, and bottom tiers getting buffed is always hella nice.

I'm not sure right now, but the ZSS and Sheik MU's are looking slot closer to even than a -1 for Luigi in my opinion. And if ZSS has gotten as neutered as I think she has, it may even be tipped in Luigi's favor (probably just wishful thinking, though).

Mewtwo and Cloud are big winners of this patch. Cloud received very minor nerfs even though he's most likely top tier and Mewtwo just got a few buffs while also loving the top tier nerfs.

And then there's Charizard, a character who sucked before, but now I actually want to pick him up as a secondary. Probably not gonna help any MU (besides perhaps Megaman or something) but he's looking really fun with all these buffs to speed and landing lag.

Oh yeah, and DDD is still dead. A shame too, since my brother is a DDD main. But I was talking to him and he was actually really happy about this patch, because of the Sheik and ZSS nerfs. Where do we see DDD as of now? I always saw him as low tier, not bottom tier. But some people think that he's downright bottom tier trash. Anyone able to give an opinion at the moment?

 

[Trifroze]

So, in theory -

ZSS's plasma whip is now 4 frames safer on shield.
So -18.
And has pushed it to be not punishable, even power shielded, by Sonic/Fox.
The caveat being it's max range though.
It can kill at the ledge feasibly too.

Damage output is less.
Down throw sends no where at 0.
The end game of relying on back air to get stocks will be more difficult.
Back throw is kinda useless.

Death combos still work, just at later percent.
Possibly for smaller windows.
But they're still "the same".

Nair and Up Air are 1 frame less safe on shield, both -4 now.
Jab/spot dodge still a-okay~

-

Sheik's fair having range nerfed
but Meta Knight having forward air become 4 frames safer (-13 now)
suddenly may make this match up not as disastrous?
Who knows.

Pretty sure ZSS' nair got its range nerfed as well, not just based on personal observation but in the data there was a change in an unknown parameter from 6.0 to 5.7 and I have no idea what else it could be. Whatever it is, it's bound to be pretty insignificant. Nair to bair is a lot easier now though, works at kill percents even if the opponent has good DI.

Based on playing for a good 2 hours I can confirm everything generally works as it used to, except at high percents the dthrow KBG changes start to make a negative difference. Dthrow to uair guaranteed kill setup probably won't be a thing anymore if you have any bit of rage, although without rage it seems like a pretty lenient 50:50 at the very least. Same with dthrow to bair.

Side b still doesn't really kill unless you go Simon Belmont with it offstage (which you probably should now instead of zair), but the extra safety gives ZSS some more ground control. It's probably a decent poke now honestly, but the move could still either gain another 1.5% damage or get some of its endlag reduced so you can't punish it as easily by simply jumping over it. I'm just glad they paid any attention to this move though.

The reduced active frames on grab are definitely noticeable, it's much easier to avoid being caught by it if you happen to roll away when ZSS throws her grab out in front of you. The safety reduction on nair and uair is ultimately irrelevant since you can still jab first every time, even against f6 grabs. The timing is just slightly more strict now, but most ZSS' have probably been timing it that way most of the time anyway.

Sheik probably suffered harder overall, but regardless there are characters that probably surpassed both of them because of these changes.

 

[adom4]

with getting buffed, is the definite worst in the game now?

Puff tho.
Also i would say Samus is one of the biggest winners from this patch, that air speed increase is massive.

 

[outfoxd]

I'll just be happy if the cloud nerfs decentralize doubles a bit. I'm just now really getting into it.

 

[bc1910]

People already jumping ship from Sheik and MK is too funny.

with getting buffed, is the definite worst in the game now?

-----

Also, Greninja's DA startup was apparently buffed by 2 frames and not 3, so the FAF is 31. This is still the fastest DA in the game since the FAF on MK's is 32.

Uair's landing lag was apparently reduced 16 > 15 which might make certain Uair spike combos easier and potentially allow Greninja to combo off the 5th hit which sometimes makes people pop out.

Dair's landing lag was apparently reduced from 33 > 32 which literally does nothing.

 

[Lag Chan]

with getting buffed, is the definite worst in the game now?

Maybe not flat out worst but certainly bottom 5 at the least. Dedede is a huge victim of power creep, at the start of the game's life I felt that Dedede was okay, like top of low tier. But since he's gotten no buffs and everyone around him has, match ups that were once doable are so much harder. At this rate I'm convinced Dedede's only postive match up is Ganon but now he got buffed again even that's in the air. Wouldn't be surprised if we saw Jiggs and Dedede battling it out for last place in the next tier list.

 

[Das Koopa]

Gotta say - IF Sheik becomes less prevalent (and we might be exaggerating how badly she got nerfed, she COULD still be the best) then Greninja might start becoming more prevalent. That'd be nice.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Gotta say - IF Sheik becomes less prevalent (and we might be exaggerating how badly she got nerfed, she COULD still be the best) then Greninja might start becoming more prevalent. That'd be nice.

If? She just lost the only kill confirm she had in a sea of already below average smash attacks. That alone in my opinion drops her to the lower half of A tier. Then you factor in needles and f-air being nerfed, and bouncing fish window also shrinking as a result of fthrow changes...yeah. Today is not a pretty day for sheik mains.

Edit: Not saying doom and gloom for her necessarily, either. There's no way in hell she's the best anymore, but for the most part, what made her good still works. Her design as a frame fast fighter with good damage racking but low killing power is now just accentuated.

 

[bc1910]

Gotta say - IF Sheik becomes less prevalent (and we might be exaggerating how badly she got nerfed, she COULD still be the best) then Greninja might start becoming more prevalent. That'd be nice.

Even if she's still prevalent, Greninja could be more prevalent if his MU with her improves. Looking at the numbers it's impossible for the MU not to improve at least somewhat (I honestly don't know how she's supposed to kill him when she's off Battlefield or Dreamland), but whether that's enough to take it out of 65:35 territory will be the crucial thing.

I won't hold my breath, Greninja's been buffed more significantly than this and gone nowhere in the eyes of the wider community.

That said, Sheik has never been nerfed anywhere near as badly as this, and she was by far the biggest thorn in his side.

Oh yeah, and DDD is still dead. A shame too, since my brother is a DDD main. But I was talking to him and he was actually really happy about this patch, because of the Sheik and ZSS nerfs. Where do we see DDD as of now? I always saw him as low tier, not bottom tier. But some people think that he's downright bottom tier trash. Anyone able to give an opinion at the moment?

I wouldn't describe any character in this game as trash, to be honest. Even the worst characters are much better than previous games' worst characters.

That said, yes, D3 is still bottom tier and probably bottom 3 now.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Well Shulk Inderictly got buffed and NERFED.
Buffed because the top tier MUs are easier, and rosa may be the second or best character, which Shulk has a decent time against.
NERFED because low tiers like Zard and Samus may be better than him now.
Cmon sakurai

 

[Nobie]

I think it's going to be exciting seeing how the changes to Sheik ripple throughout the entire cast.

Like, people are complaining about Dedede (possibly) getting no changes, but who knows? Maybe all the nerfs to the top tier ar enough to push up his viability.

I just tested out Mewtwo fair vs. Sheik fair. The big difference is that it now starts trading a bit sooner based on distance, and it's harder for Sheik to whiff punish Mewtwo's fair with her own fair. It used to be that, while Mewtwo could beat Sheik's fair from enough distance, if Mewtwo whiffed the fair his extended arm could get hit by Sheik's fair pretty easily. The reduced hitbox on Sheik's fair makes this noticeably more difficult.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think people who claim that Sheik is sill #1 may underrate the extent of her nerfs.

The weight nerf means a lot. I don't really know when Ike will start killing her with uthrow -> fair. Probably like 90% depending on position? That's huge and it's global. That nerf alone has already made her matchup against every character in the game harder.
Losing her 50/50 out of dthrow at high percent is a massive blow, as is the decreased range on her needles.

Not sure what there's much to argue here, there are at least two non-trivial buffs on something that's directly related to her survivability and another thing related to her ability to close out stocks. That affects literally all of her matchups in a negative way.

 

[Smog Frog]

let's go over buffs:
uair has a 2% increase in damage and has a slightly larger hitbox. the ramifications? uair not only kills earlier, but it can now be confirmed out of dtilt and dthrow. can you say pre-100% kill confirms?
nair got a 4% increase in damage, but importantly some of this buff
was put into the earlier hits. the ramifications? falling nair->usmash and falling nair->farores wind are now much easier.
grab has a slightly larger hitbox. the ramifications? combined with the nair buffs, you can now do falling nair->dthrow->uair.

today was a big day for . she can now close out stocks consistently pre 100%. but...she still has a huge problem getting into a position to use these new tools. still a **** character but isn't a contender for worst in the game anymore.