Tournament Mode [1.1.0] Community Patch Notes

[Vipermoon]

Are Roy's sweetspots consistently 1.3x? They don't seem that high.

 

[A_Kae]

Are Roy's sweetspots consistently 1.3x? They don't seem that high.

Not all of them, but I think it's most of them (most of the ones that I've actually checked, at least). F-smash is 1.0, I think, for an example of one that's not 1.3.

Edit: Strongest hitbox for Roy's fsmash is actually 1.4. It's the middle that's 1.0. Misremembered there.

Edit 2: Roy's hitlag modifers for sweetspotted normals:

Jab: 1.3
Dash Attack: 1.3
Ftilt: 1.3
Utilt: 1.3
Dtilt: 1.3
Fsmash: 1.4
Usmash: 1.5 (First and repeating hits)
Usmash: 1.2 (Final hit)
Dsmash: 1.3 (Both hits)
Nair: 1.3 (Both hits)
Fair: 1.3
Bair: 1.3
Uair: 1.3
Dair: 1.3

 

[TriTails]

Not surprising. It should be obvious that Roy's tipper hilt makes both character freeze noticeably. Same with Marth.

 

[teluoborg]

You have better frame advantage on the sourspot hits because Roy has less self shieldlag. If you have less shieldlag then your opponent, it's essentially as if the move has more shieldstun. If you have more shieldlag then the opponent, it's like adding recovery frames.

Ok so I had read it well, thanks. It seems counter intuitive for a hit that deals less damage to be safer on shield but that's how the game is I guess.

Again, thanks a lot.

 

[Shaya]

Something needs to be established (probably requiring recording equipment/other things).

Is hit lag and shield hit lag and RECEIVER's shield hit lag the same number of frames on >=1.1 modifier moves still, or are they different?
The same questions but with sub 1.0 modifiers (easiest would be Marth's sour spot moves).

Hit lag frames on moves with 1.0 modifiers are the same this patch as last patch?


Either way if this is what I think it means, Marth's tipper safety was buffed this patch; lol Lucina / yay in general.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Something needs to be established (probably requiring recording equipment/other things).

Is hit lag and shield hit lag and RECEIVER's shield hit lag the same number of frames on >=1.1 modifier moves still, or are they different?
The same questions but with sub 1.0 modifiers (easiest would be Marth's sour spot moves).

Hit lag frames on moves with 1.0 modifiers are the same this patch as last patch?


Either way if this is what I think it means, Marth's tipper safety was buffed this patch; lol Lucina / yay in general.

Hit lag on moves in general (both on hit and on shield) is the same as last patch, aside from a frame here or there for moves that got a significant enough damage change.

The difference here is that if a move has any kind of hitlag modifier, for some reason on shield, the hitlag you receive when you attack an opponent's shield is lower than if you'd hit them in 1.10. The amount of shieldlag the defender receives hasn't been changed.

Anyways, I got the numbers for Marth.

Jab 1: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 8 -> 6.

Jab 2: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 9 -> 7.

F-tilt: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

D-tilt: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 11 -> 8.

U-tilt: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 10 -> 8.

Dash Attack: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

F-smash: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 4 frames, 18 -> 14.

D-smash: Sweetspot self shieldlag on the front hit reduced by 3 frames, 14 -> 11. Sweetspot self shieldlag on the back hit reduced by 4 frames, 17 -> 13.

N-air: Sweetspot self shieldlag on the first hit reduced by 1 frame, 7 -> 6. Sweetspot self shieldlag on the second hit reduced by 2 frames, 10 -> 8.

F-air: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 11 -> 8.

B-air: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

D-air: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 12 -> 10.

U-air: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

Shield Breaker: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 13 -> 10.

Crescent Slash: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 11 -> 9.

Heavy Blade Neutral 2: Self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 11 -> 9.

Heavy Blade Neutral 3: Self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 10 -> 8.

Heavy Blade Neutral 4: Self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 17 -> 14.

Heavy Blade Up 3: Self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 10 -> 8.

Heavy Blade Up 4: Self shieldlag reduced by 4 frames, 17 -> 13.

Heavy Blade Down 3: Self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 10 -> 8.

Heavy Blade Down 4: Self shieldlag on the final hit reduced by 3 frames, 15 -> 12.

All of his sourspots were unchanged. Also worth noting that Storm Thrust, which has a hitlag modifier less than 1.0 (similar to his sourspots), did not get a shieldlag change (still 5 frames of self shieldlag uncharged, 7 when fully charged). Heavy Blade Up 3 has a hitlag modifer less than 1.0 (it only has 3 frames of self hitlag for some reason) so that wasn't changed.

Also, it may or may not mean anything, but aside from his Smash attacks and Shield Breaker, the new sweetspot shieldlag matches the shieldlag the opponent receives now. Same with Heavy Blade, aside from Heavy Blade Neutral 2/Neutral 4/Up 4/Down 4.

...and apparently Marth's Heavy Blade has tippers that I wasn't aware of. I only hit them on accident a couple of times when recording for shieldstun in 1.08 (the rest I hit at the center of the blade) so I don't have all of them, but the ones I did get got the same kind of treatment in terms of self shieldlag in 1.10 (e.g. the final hit of Heavy Blade Down 4 is down by 5 frames for a tipper: 21 -> 16).

Anyways, yeah, appears that this change only seems to apply to hitlag modifiers higher than 1.0 for some reason...1.0 and lower appear to be unchanged from what I can see so far.

 

[Ffamran]

Higher than 1.0... LordWilliam1234, could you test Falco's Up Smash, rapid jab finisher, Dair, Fair, Falco Charge, and Distant Fire Bird? Second hit of Up Smash is 1.3, rapid jab finisher is 2.0, Dair is 2.0, Fair's last hit is 2.5 and landing Fair is 2.0, Falco Charge's clean hit 1.5, and Distant Fire Bird's clean hit is also 1.5.

 

[Vipermoon]

Hit lag on moves in general (both on hit and on shield) is the same as last patch, aside from a frame here or there for moves that got a significant enough damage change.

The difference here is that if a move has any kind of hitlag modifier, for some reason on shield, the hitlag you receive when you attack an opponent's shield is lower than if you'd hit them in 1.10. The amount of shieldlag the defender receives hasn't been changed.

Anyways, I got the numbers for Marth.

Jab 1: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 8 -> 6.

Jab 2: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 9 -> 7.

F-tilt: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

D-tilt: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 11 -> 8.

U-tilt: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 10 -> 8.

Dash Attack: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

F-smash: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 4 frames, 18 -> 14.

D-smash: Sweetspot self shieldlag on the front hit reduced by 3 frames, 14 -> 11. Sweetspot self shieldlag on the back hit reduced by 4 frames, 17 -> 13.

N-air: Sweetspot self shieldlag on the first hit reduced by 1 frame, 7 -> 6. Sweetspot self shieldlag on the second hit reduced by 2 frames, 10 -> 8.

F-air: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 11 -> 8.

B-air: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

D-air: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 12 -> 10.

U-air: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

Shield Breaker: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 13 -> 10.

Crescent Slash: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 11 -> 9.

Heavy Blade Neutral 2: Self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 11 -> 9.

Heavy Blade Neutral 3: Self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 10 -> 8.

Heavy Blade Neutral 4: Self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 17 -> 14.

Heavy Blade Up 3: Self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 10 -> 8.

Heavy Blade Up 4: Self shieldlag reduced by 4 frames, 17 -> 13.

Heavy Blade Down 3: Self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 10 -> 8.

Heavy Blade Down 4: Self shieldlag on the final hit reduced by 3 frames, 15 -> 12.

All of his sourspots were unchanged. Also worth noting that Storm Thrust, which has a hitlag modifier less than 1.0 (similar to his sourspots), did not get a shieldlag change (still 5 frames of self shieldlag uncharged, 7 when fully charged). Heavy Blade Up 3 has a hitlag modifer less than 1.0 (it only has 3 frames of self hitlag for some reason) so that wasn't changed.

Also, it may or may not mean anything, but aside from his Smash attacks and Shield Breaker, the new sweetspot shieldlag matches the shieldlag the opponent receives now. Same with Heavy Blade, aside from Heavy Blade Neutral 2/Neutral 4/Up 4/Down 4.

...and apparently Marth's Heavy Blade has tippers that I wasn't aware of. I only hit them on accident a couple of times when recording for shieldstun in 1.08 (the rest I hit at the center of the blade) so I don't have all of them, but the ones I did get got the same kind of treatment in terms of self shieldlag in 1.10 (e.g. the final hit of Heavy Blade Down 4 is down by 5 frames for a tipper: 21 -> 16).

Anyways, yeah, appears that this change only seems to apply to hitlag modifiers higher than 1.0 for some reason...1.0 and lower appear to be unchanged from what I can see so far.

Thank you thank you thank you. Your hard work is appreciated by many. This proves my theory wrong. I guessed that any hitlag modifer above 1.0 has been reduced to 1.0 on shields. But as we can see, Marth's highest hitlag moves (Smash attacks, Shield Breaker, and Heavy Blade) still have modifers above 1.0 against shields.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

I'm gonna go with universal engine change here. I just checked through Ike's frame data, and the 2 hitlag modifiers he has (dash attack at the tip, and unyielding blade) had their self shieldlag reduced.

Dash Attack (Tip): Self Shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 12 -> 10.

Unyielding Blade: Uncharged self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 15 -> 12. Fully charged self shieldlag reduced by 5 frames, 24 -> 19.

Frame-wise, Ike is unchanged outside of that. Updated my frame data sheet accordingly.

I'll check Falco next.

 

[SIMOMEGA]

Can someone tell me the terminology of those patch notes? What does 14u -> 10u means on Captain Falcon??? And all the terminology in general, also I wonder where are the older patch notes (unless they have been cancelled), I can't find them on SmashBoards, can you help me out please?

 

[Shaya]

Lol, they 200% changed mechanics of the game just to make Ryu better (and in tow have made Marth SIGNIFICANTLY safer what the flying ****!?!?!)
Shield hit lag on the receiver/sender on which moves are different though? All of the non 1.5s (his strong tippers) are now equivalent to 1.0?

F-air: Sweetspot self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 11 -> 8.
Lol, Marth's **** got 3 frames safer in this patch, my goodness.
This is actually broken. This is super ridiculous in fact.

Can someone tell me the terminology of those patch notes? What does 14u -> 10u means on Captain Falcon??? And all the terminology in general, also I wonder where are the older patch notes (unless they have been cancelled), I can't find them on SmashBoards, can you help me out please?

u = units. The game engine has it's own physics with linear dimensions represented.
It essentially means the hitbox placement of the rapid jab finisher has been reduced by 4 units.

Older patch notes are in the academy

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Shield hit lag on the receiver/sender on which moves are different though? All of the non 1.5s (his strong tippers) are now equivalent to 1.0?

Seems that way for him, yeah. Still at a loss for what exactly the formula change was though, since as you can see from the numbers between Ryu, Roy, and Marth (and by extension, the ones I found for those moves with hitlag modifiers on Link and Ike), there isn't a consistent pattern. Likewise, Ryu and Roy still have higher self shieldlag than the opponent's shieldlag, it's just not as much.

 

[Shaya]

Marth's tipper fsmash went from a 1.5 on shield modifier to 1.2

Marth's tipper back air went from 1.25 on shield modifier to <= 1.0 [floored?]
Marth up tilt. 1.25 modifier to "1.0"

So a flat 0.3x off? Minimum 1.0?
Or the modifier is divided by 1.25 (1.25 to 1.0, 1.5 to 1.2)

 

[Vipermoon]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

It has to be one of the two.

I have a question. For hitlag frames, does it round at all? Or does it just wait for the next whole number like how damage works?

 

[A_Kae]

Roy has 1.3x on most of his attacks, so it can't be a flat 0.3 off, since he has more hitlag than the defender still.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

It has to be one of the two.

I have a question. For hitlag frames, does it round at all? Or does it just wait for the next whole number like how damage works?

Hitlag isn't rounded. Any decimal values are truncated. Or I think it's that way, at least.

 

[san.]

Where's the easiest place to find out which attacks have hitlag modifiers above 1.0?

 

[Ffamran]

Where's the easiest place to find out which attacks have hitlag modifiers above 1.0?

Besides hitting moves and seeing if there's a "delay", I don't know other than digging through the game's files. Dantarion's master core has hit lag and SDI multipliers listed for moves.

Edit: Lucario should be gone over as well. He has a lot of hit lag modifiers from what I remember Lavani saying.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Where's the easiest place to find out which attacks have hitlag modifiers above 1.0?

I would use this, but the all the info is only modified up to 1.04. You can trust that moves with a hitlag modifier in there probably still have it. Just cross reference moves with patch notes if you're really concerned. Use ctrl + F and type in your character's name to go to their moves. Names are the japanese versions, so Bowser is koopa, Villager is murabito, Jigglypuff is purin, Charizard is lizardon, Mega Man is Rockman, and there's other altercations like Captain Falcon being Captain

 

[Patriot Duck]

What other characters have notably high hitlag on most of their moves? Robin and Lucas come to mind. I suppose they're also benefiting from this change.

 

[Shaya]

Mr. Game & Watch and Pikachu's aerials are now saying hello.
Unless the modifier applied to shield hits for both already, electric attacks also have natural 1.5 modifiers. So ZSS' nair may be *aroused* 4+ frames safer on shield maybe.

I believe most characters with landing hitboxes on aerials also have hit lag modifiers.

 

[Zionaze]

Cannot express all my thanks to the dedicated Smash community for all this info.

Nintendo y u no patchnotes like splatoon

 

[Big O]

Mr. Game & Watch and Pikachu's aerials are now saying hello.
Unless the modifier applied to shield hits for both already, electric attacks also have natural 1.5 modifiers. So ZSS' nair may be *aroused* 4+ frames safer on shield maybe.

I believe most characters with landing hitboxes on aerials also have hit lag modifiers.

I've done very brief testing on this, but I couldn't find any difference in frame advantage on electric moves. Hopefully I'm right because Pikachu and ZSS certainly don't need that extra bit of safety in their kits lol.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hang on, I don't think this is universal. I tested Little Mac's multijab finisher (2.5 hitlag), and the hitlag both on hit and on shield seem to be the same. If what you're all proposing is true, then the shielded finisher should have had Mac frozen for less time.

 

[Shaya]

There may be a specific range of multipliers they apply too?
Are there any other 1 > x < 1.25 modifiers out there? How do they get effected?
> 1.5 probably needs to be checked somehow too...

I think G&W's back air has several large modifiers.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I thought maybe this was a change meant for moves with the slash element exclusively. Since all the moves with those modifiers we frame counted were slash attacks...Until I remembered the case of Ryu. I don't think those are considered slash attacks.

I wasn't frame counting Mac's rapid finisher, just looking at it with my eyes. If there's a change, I would say that if a move is being reduced, I have doubts that it's being reduced to a neat 1.0. It seems all repeating jabs have around 2.0 modifiers, so they're good options to test.

G&W Bair has 1.5 for the multihit, and 2.5 for the final hit. Nothing for the landing hit.

 

[Shaya]

1.5 Modifier went to 1.2 (divided by 1.25)
1.25 Modifier went to 1.0 (divided by 1.25)

That's all we're seemingly seeing at the moment.
As roy/etc have 1.3 modifiers and they still have extra shield freeze.

2.5 modifier would go down to 2?

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Attacks with electric properties have a default hitlag modifier of 1.5, right? I still need to check other characters but it seems that is unchanged, at least on shield. In the case of Link's Shocking Spin, which does electric damage, the opponent has 10 frames of shieldlag while Link has 15, if uncharged. Full charge, the opponent has 13 frames of shieldlag while Link has 20. This is unchanged between 1.08 and 1.10.

It's still possible that other characters that have electric properties on their attacks got the hitlag change on shield, but it'd be unrelated to the default hitlag modifier that electric attacks get.

EDIT: I got the numbers for Falco.

Jab Ender: Self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

U-smash: Self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 12 -> 10.

N-air: Self shieldlag on the final hit reduced by 3 frames, 13 -> 10.

F-air: Self shieldlag on the final hit reduced by 3 frames, 16 -> 13. Self shieldlag on the landing hitbox reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

D-air: Self shieldlag on the sweetspot hit reduced by 4 frames, 20 -> 16.

Falco Charge (Side 3): Self Shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 14 -> 11.

Distant Fire Bird (Up 3): Self Shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 12 -> 9.

Note that Falco's f-smash on the late hit has a hitlag modifier too, but that one is less than 1.0. As with the other hitlag modifiers like that, it was not changed.

EDIT 2: Decided to try an experiment to explore this further. I gave Marth an equipment set that gives him +200 attack (which is x2 attack strength and the max boost you can get for a stat) and tested what his f-smash hitlag values were with that.

F-smash Self Hitlag (Sourspot): 10 frames (+3 compared to normal)

F-smash Self Hitlag (Sweetspot): 28 frames (+10 compared to normal)

F-smash Self Shieldlag (Sourspot): 10 frames (+3 compared to normal)

F-smash Opponent Shieldlag (Sourspot): 15 frames (+5 compared to normal)

F-smash Self Shieldlag (Sweetspot): 22 frames (+8 compared to normal)

F-smash Opponent Shieldlag (Sweetspot): 18 frames (+7 compared to normal)

So even with double the attack, Marth's F-smash sourspot has the same amount of hitlag and shieldlag for himself. While for the tipper, he has 6 frames less self shieldlag compared to self hitlag (it's 4 frames less without the equipment boost).

...still dunno why hitlag modifiers less than 1.0 aren't being affected by this.

 

[Snokros]

sorry for bothering you. but im curious and would like to know how falcos forward air is made less safe. thanks in advance.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

sorry for bothering you. but im curious and would like to know how falcos forward air is made less safe. thanks in advance.

Nevermind, I was wrong, it's still the same advantage on shield as it was before. The self shieldlag change also increased the landing lag by 3 frames but the self shieldlag also being lowered by 3 frames cancelled that out.

 

[FullMoon]

I wonder if Greninja has any such moves that are now made safer on shield.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

I wonder if Greninja has any such moves that are now made safer on shield.

Jab 3, Jab ender, f-air, b-air (third hit), d-air, and side-b (default and customs) all have hitlag modifiers so those ones may have been. I can check in a bit.

 

[FullMoon]

Huh, I was kinda hoping N-Air's sweetspot had one. Having that being safer on shield would be a big boon for Greninja.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Alright, for Greninja:

Jab 3: Self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 12 -> 10.

Jab Ender: Self shieldlag reduced by 4 frames, 17 -> 13.

B-air (Third Hit): Self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 13 -> 10.

D-air: Self shieldlag reduced by 4 frames, 16 -> 12.

F-air: Self shieldlag reduced by 1 frame, 11 -> 10 (matches the shieldlag the opponent receives now)

Shadow Sneak: Self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 11 -> 9.

Shadow Strike: Self shieldlag reduced by 3 frames, 19 -> 16.

Shadow Dash: Self shieldlag reduced by 2 frames, 10 -> 8.

 

[FullMoon]

Hm, I wonder how better for spacing B-Air is now, probably not much.

If nothing else F-Air is now very slightly safer on shield so no complaints there.

 

[Shaya]

William is there anything thus far that doesn't prove

Attacker Hit Lag Modifier(modifier, context):
if context is shield && modifier >= 1.25: return modifier / 1.25
else: return modifier

And guessing by Roy's 1.30 still producing extra freeze ceiling[AHLM(X,Y) * HitLag(DMG)]

is what's going on right now?

 

[LordWilliam1234]

That seems to be what's going on right now, yes.

 

[Shaya]

And are there any examples of sub 1.25 modifiers?

 

[LordWilliam1234]

And are there any examples of sub 1.25 modifiers?

Greninja's f-air. Has a hitlag modifier of 1.1 (opponent shieldlag is 10 frames, Greninja's hitlag is 11 frames) and was still reduced on shield, but only by one frame (so to a 1.0 modifier).

So, something like:

Attacker Hit Lag Modifier(modifier, context):
if context is shield && modifier >= 1.25: return modifier / 1.25
elseif context is shield && modifier < 1.25 && modifier > 1.0: return 1.0
else: return modifier

Seems to be what's going on.

 

[Shaya]

Cleaner would probably be

Attacker Hit Lag Modifier(modifier, context):
if context is shield && modifier > 1: return MAX(modifier / 1.25, 1.0)
else: return modifier

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Yeah, that's cleaner. Wasn't aware of the MAX function in there.

Either way I think at this point we have our answer. Between 7 characters (Link, Roy, Ryu, Ike, Marth, Falco, and Greninja) we've been getting a consistent result.