2020 US Presidential Election Discussion

[Alicorn]

I do agree that Bernie Sanders was treated unfairly by the media. Bernie would have had a better chance if Clinton won. Trump poisoned the electorate to the point Americans began to reject the populist candidate. Because Trump ran on a similar slogan to "Over throw the Establishment" and that was "Drain the Swamp"

Its a pleasure talking to you too.

 

[StoicPhantom]

I didn't hear anything about Democrats suppressing Bernie Sanders voters.

Were you paying attention to both the 2016 and 2020 Dem primaries? I followed both closely and have a massive library of instances stored in my memory. I'm not going to go into too much detail, because it's not important to anyone that doesn't have a need for the establishment candidate to be legitimate, but look into the voter roll purges in Brooklyn during the 2016 primary and how they were found to be illegal and where places like Arizona cut their polling locations to around a 1/3 right before the primaries. These are some of the things I was talking about.

A lot of those Bernie Sanders voters online were just actors meant to sow discord because Foreign adversaries know that Bernie Sanders was the weakest candidate. Bernie Sanders has great ideas but he sucks at promoting them. The thing you have to understand is conservatives have spent decades selling the narrative that Socialism = Communism. Boomers are scared stiff of Bernie Sanders so of course they would vote for Trump. The thought of sharing is just that toxic to them after years of believing a certain narrative.

This is just nonsense. His policies routinely poll favorably among the public and he was the one who brought the conversation and spotlight to things like student debt and healthcare. These aren't pie in the sky ideas or radical proposals or even Socialism, but Social Democracy. He can label himself as a Socialist all he wants, but these are found in most Capitalist societies and are the bare minimum required for a stable society under Capitalism.

You also have the Cuba and Venezuelan community that lived through a twisted version of socialism or heard of it from those who lived it. (Though a lot who fled were the wealthy middle and upper classes so they are more likely to be conservative). So Bernie Sanders was a shackle to Joe Biden in Florida, he didn't mean to but the association along with Trump's aggressive ground game in the Latinx community made Biden lose Florida

That's what the current establishment narrative is, but that's not what the numbers show.

Florida Polls: Who Different Groups Supported (Published 2020)

www.nytimes.com

Scrolling down to the race and ethnicity poll we can see that whites were the overwhelming majority who voted. And that the overwhelming majority of them went to Biden. And that while Biden still took the Hispanic vote, Bernie did take a significant chunk. You can scroll a little further down to race and age to see that Bernie took sizable margins from younger black and Hispanic voters, showing that there's a major age split.

Scrolling down to Household Income we can see that hardly any of the voters were under $30,000. If the average household income is $30,000 then that means who even bothered to show up was the wealthier members of society. Not exactly surprising given that this was at the height of pandemic fear and lots of polling locations were severely understaffed or outright abandoned in poorer districts.

Scrolling further down to "Which of the following best describes the area where you live?" we can see that it is overwhelmingly urban and that the majority are suburban. This is incredibly telling as to which demographic was most interested in the primary outcome and of course Biden walked off with the lion's share.

Scrolling down to the final and perhaps most important poll that is "Which is more important to your vote in the Democratic presidential primary?" we can see that the choices are basically "Do you want things to go back to normal?" or "Do you want a revolution?". And the majority who voted were those that wanted things to go back to normal and the overwhelming majority of those went to Biden. This is perhaps the most telling of what types of people vote for Biden.


Putting those together and we can say that Biden's constituency in Florida is predominately wealthy white suburbanites who want to keep the status quo. And where Bernie made significant inroads were Hispanics. One thing to note is that this is where Bernie's campaign was in the middle of collapsing, so there was likely a major depression in turnout among his supporters during the height of pandemic paranoia.

Of course that doesn't get into who those Hispanics were buuut

Trump made big in-roads in Hispanic areas across the nation | CNN Politics

One of the most notable early results on Election Night came from Florida's heavily Hispanic Miami-Dade county. President Donald Trump lost it to President-elect Joe Biden by just 7 points, after losing it by 29 points in 2016.

www.cnn.com

we can see that this was a nation wide surge. Particularly interesting is the Bronx, AOC territory, where Biden had the worst margins since 1992. And that's not an area I would call being scared of Socialism.


Overall, Biden won on a wealthy white suburban vote. Bernie Sanders won heavily with a minority, particularly Hispanic, coalition towards the beginning of the primary. Both Trump and Bernie lost white voters while making gains in minority voters. Biden had losses in every demographic sans white suburbans relative to Hillary Clinton. Hispanics went heavily for Hillary in both the primary and general while she lost white men in particular. Bernie of course had a rural white majority in 2016 that fled in 2020.

Going by the Dems' ideas on race and politics this would lead to things being less Trump and Bernie being good with minorities and more that Biden was utterly repellent to anything that wasn't a white wealthy suburbanite. And it would also make absolutely no sense that these demographics wildly swung between several candidates with starkly different ideologies and backgrounds. Hispanics would have had to effectively go from a airbrushed and polished faux progressive establishment type, to a "radical" "socialist" working class hero, to a bombastic shooting from the hip conservative billionaire. And the Dem rationale for all of these various demographics swinging so wildly is getting increasingly ridiculous with entire swaths of two time Obama voters suddenly turning racist and minorities being "religious conservatives" that just suddenly decided to vote against their interests.

However, you can rectify this by applying something that the Democrats bend over backwards to avoid, which is to apply class analysis. I've already done a fair amount of that above, but needless to say Bernie and Trump are working class heroes while Biden is a bourgeoisie favorite. It's also rural vs urban as well. Rural got redder while urban got bluer. Said in other way, the working class rural Ds went R and the suburban Rs went D.

Who are predominately the poorest classes in the US? Non-whites. Who have the suburbs generally voted for in recent history? Republicans. Who does revolution appeal to more? Those currently being oppressed by the system. Who does "going back to normal" appeal to more? Those who are currently benefiting from the system. Who does "Make America Great Again" appeal to more? People who have a problem with the way things currently are. Who does "Nothing will fundamentally change" appeal to? People who think things are fine the way they are.

This isn't hard for people who don't have an emotional bias towards Democrats being the heroes of the working class and oppressed. The Democrats built their narrative around anti-populism and "returning to normal" and subsequently dropped the Progressive pandering Hillary tried and drew a clear line between them and "Socialism" and Progressives. And their reward was the suburban Reaganites that the weird tangents in this thread were alluding to. It was ultimately hardcore suburban republicans that gave Biden the victory.

Meanwhile, Trump, being the political idiot he is, decided to try appeals to establishment normalcy with the whole law and order gimmick that Mr. Omnibus Crime Bill himself was naturally going to fulfill better. He failed to realize that people voted for him because he brought chaos to the system and they wanted him to burn it down.

And this is further supported by the fact that the Dems lost seats in the House and may or may not gain any in the Senate. It's pretty clear to me that these new Rs that voted D only did so to remove Trump and don't have any actual allegiance to the party as of now. If these wealthy suburbanites want things to stay the same then getting Trump out is more important than party allegiance as the GOP failed to quash the populist rebellion in their party.


This then completely kills the narrative that Bernie, "Socialism", BLM, and Progressives hurt Biden and the Democrats in any way. Those that would be opposed to those were Biden's strongest demographics. He would have lost in the same way Hillary did without them. The narrative that the insurgents in the party are what is hurting the party is already a very self-serving narrative for Dem leadership as it is. So of course they're going to jump to that to explain their poor showing, rather than admit their strategy is wrong.

Because the Democrats ultimately align with the Bourgeoisie materially, politically, and culturally. They can't disguise their profound hatred and disgust towards the poor and working class, they refuse to admit that the current system isn't working for the constituents they're supposed to serve, and their policies over the last several decades have been highly destructive to said classes. It's only natural they would take advantage of the current populist surge to juxtapose as defenders of "normalcy" and try to ditch the Left for these wealthy Republicans.

Which also is why it's equally hilarious that Progressives sold out to these guys and think they're going to push them left.


No, the Democrats are the bad guys this time around. There's no way even the mediocrities that plague the party can be this ignorant. They know exactly what they're doing and the messaging has been very clear and explicit that they are firmly opposed to making any changes. Enough so that suburban Republicans felt comfortable enough to defect. And the consequence is losing the demographics they claim to serve.


And that spells major trouble for the Democrats going forward. The new Republican gains aren't guaranteed to hold, but they likely permanently lost those that fled them. It depends on whether the GOP can suppress their new working class base or whether a more competent populist can take Trump's place or Trump somehow manages to rally if he decides to run again.

 

[Oracle Link]

You guys in America have it really Rough the 2 Party System Sucks!
Most of the time recently you had the Choice between a Evil and a slightly lesser Evil
Im Glad that there are 5-9 relevant Partys in germany so even if Cdu and Spd are idiots we still only get
20-40 % Extreme Partys while you get 100% Extreme every Year right now!

 

[KingBooGengar57]

You guys in America have it really Rough the 2 Party System Sucks!
Most of the time recently you had the Choice between a Evil and a slightly lesser Evil
Im Glad that there are 5-9 relevant Partys in germany so even if Cdu and Spd are idiots we still only get
20-40 % Extreme Partys while you get 100% Extreme every Year right now!

I don’t live in America.

 

[Sucumbio]

How suing Mike Pence is the last gasp of the 'election fraud' crowd

Boy, I did not see this one coming! On Monday, Texas Republican Rep. Louie Gohmert sued Vice President Mike Pence in federal court in a, um, wacky attempt to transform the vice president's purely ceremonial role in presiding over the announcement of the Electoral College results in Congress into...

news.google.com

Awesome

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

From what I’ve heard talking to my right leaning friends and family, they feel this is an attempt to get the VP to act. I’m not sure if the right-leaning members in this thread agrees but those I know indicated they feel that Pence is planning on throwing Trump under the bus because he knows that the ship is sinking. He would rather save himself than to go down with the ship which Trump is planning to do. This litigation is an attempt for the VP to “use his power to prevent the stealing of the election and unlawful usurpation of the presidency.” A few of my family have already called him a “traitor”, “backstabber” and he’s been bought and paid for by the CCP. Additionally, many of my conservative friends and family expressed the notion that Pence is doing this because he is eyeing a 2024 presidential campaign and taking action now would hurt those chances. Thoughts on this?

 

[drag0nscythe]

From what I’ve heard talking to my right leaning friends and family, they feel this is an attempt to get the VP to act. I’m not sure if the right-leaning members in this thread agrees but those I know indicated they feel that Pence is planning on throwing Trump under the bus because he knows that the ship is sinking. He would rather save himself than to go down with the ship which Trump is planning to do. This litigation is an attempt for the VP to “use his power to prevent the stealing of the election and unlawful usurpation of the presidency.” A few of my family have already called him a “traitor”, “backstabber” and he’s been bought and paid for by the CCP. Additionally, many of my conservative friends and family expressed the notion that Pence is doing this because he is eyeing a 2024 presidential campaign and taking action now would hurt those chances. Thoughts on this?

Anything that disagrees with their view will be branded as traitor. And given how I read a few times he was planning on skipping country, my assumption is he just wants to get the hell out of dodge.

 

[Sucumbio]

So what's the play? They sue Pence to ignore electors from 4 states I think lessening the threshold from 270 and making Trump the Victor.

That's a lot of people that are gonna riot. ......... Ggs.

But seriously wtf

 

[Alicorn]

Mitch McConnell has never ceased to amaze me with his lust for power, It is truly ruthless. He vetoed Trump showing that he does not need Trump anymore. I find it utterly astonishing that Mitch McConnell believes himself to be the man in charge. But with Loffler trailing Warnock and David Perdue stopping his campaigning due to covid precautions I feel that McConnell's decade long obstruction of congress is coming to an end and with that America can finally move forward without Mitch bullying congress to get what he wants.

This is a lot because a lot of the things Obama wanted were hard to push through due to the Republicans often obstructing the vote. The stimulus bill that Obama passed a decade ago not a single Republican in the house signed onto it, even when Obama included the tax cuts which the Republicans praised him for. Now the ball is in the Democrat's court and they are more united now then they were a decade ago. Democrats have two years to get things done before the next mid term so they have to start making peace with the centrist and progressive wings of their party and get as much stuff done as possible, including passing the close to 300 bills that Mitch McConnell let languish in his chamber.

This defeat will hopefully cause Republicans to actually look deep down inside themselves and ask if this is what they want to be a party of xenophobic, big business zealots or... actually I don't know at this point. The Republicans main tenants are religion, immigration and business. Democrats out do them in those areas, Republicans just boast about their accomplishments more which makes it feel like they done a better job than they actually did.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

On the topic of Mitch and Pence, Lin Wood wants Mitch to be arrested and imprisoned while calling for Pence’s execution based on treason if Jan 6 doesn’t pan out to what he wants. This guy is a nutjob. He says “possibly the second coming of Jesus Christ in a broken, imperfect man” and “represents Moses. Represents Ananias the believer (a strange connection considering the man was killed by God for lying to the Holy Spirit about money) The power of David.” Even if joking, no bible believing Christian with half the mind would make a statement like that ... even lightly. Those who did were cult leaders, mass murderers, and psychopaths.

 

[Alicorn]

The worst thing you can do to Mitch is make him minority leader. Once he is minority leader he loses the power to rally his party under him because they no longer have the incentive to follow him anymore. Once that happens to Mitch you are doing the worst thing imaginable to him. You are forcing a man who once had the power of congress at his finger tips becoming the most powerful man in the world in the process, to having nothing. All those years Mitch refused to compromise, and obstruct Obama are going to finally come back to bite him.

Because if Democrats actually get to do their jobs, and get us out of this pandemic, it would destroy the myth that Republicans since Reagan had cooked up and that is: Big government is ineffective. Despite the fact that when Obama had both the house and the Senate he was able to get us out of the Recession, despite Republicans acting as speed bumps every step of the way. But when he lost the Senate due to the death of a Democratic Senator the government just came to a halt. Spearheaded by Mitch and his anti- Obama coalition, the obstruction ruined the economy and it made the people feel it was Obama's fault for not tying hard enough when he actually did, Republicans just did not want to meet with him. Because they knew if they gave Obama even the smallest amount of credit Obama's popularity would skyrocket. So Mitch made it his goal to make Obama a one term president by blaming Obama for pretty much anything that went wrong with congress.

 

[Alicorn]

So from the news, it appears the Democrats are on their way to flipping Georgia. That means that with VP Harris serving as tie breaker Biden no longer has to deal with Mitch McConnell road blocking him. So it would force Mitch to actually negotiate if he wants to get anything done.

Finally after a decade of the government being paralyzed by Mitch and his say no party. America can finally have its faith restored in good governance again.

 

[drag0nscythe]

That is surprisingly good news for once. Now we have to get through today and the crazy republicans can start to fade away.

 

[Alicorn]

Yeah the Republicans and Trump has done a lot to force the Democrats to work together and find common ground. Nancy Pelosi kept holding AOC back because she knew Trump and Mitch made AOC into s conservative boogeyman, so it was necessary to keep AOC in the back room. Now that they don't have to worry about Mitch for a year or two they can start making peace with each other letting the Progressive wing get things pass without threat from Mitch blocking it.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Hopefully at least one D senator stands up for gun rights.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Looks like protestors are trying to tear down the building. wow. and I thought antifa was supposed to be the violent one.

 

[Deleted member]

Holy hell what is going on

Speech isn’t over but Trump supporters are streaming toward the Capitol, down both Constitution and Independence avenues.

Trump just encouraged rally goers to head there; even if there isn’t a formal march I’m sure much of this crowd will end up on Capitol Hill anyway. pic.twitter.com/W4Z5H6kDmh

— Alejandro Alvarez 🫡 (@aletweetsnews) January 6, 2021

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Big oof.

Can’t believe the creators of the monster have lost control of the monster, is there any precedent for this in books or film

— Dan Amira (@DanAmira) January 6, 2021

aaaand just like that, blue lives matter didn’t matter anymore https://t.co/dJiLECDVin

— 🍯🪴✨ (@agavedelacasa) January 6, 2021

 

[Deleted member]

There clearly was a subset of loonies in Trump’s base but I didn’t think they would be so loony as to ****ING RAID THE WHITE HOUSE

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Congress has been evacuated. MAGAS have now gone full on terrorist.

but i lost an eye for being in the street https://t.co/LCmr5Xaj7K

— b (@notbalin) January 6, 2021

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Members of Congress shelter in place amid fears rioters may be armed as Trump supporters flood Capitolhttps://t.co/IpIiAgGsCC

— The Independent (@Independent) January 6, 2021

 

[Ridley64]

HOLY F**KING ****. Trump supporters are insane. What kind of IDIOTS would raid the freaking WHITE HOUSE.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

It doesn't matter if you're liberal or conservative or whatever you are on the political spectrum. No one should be condoning this kind of action.

 

[Ridley64]

FINNALLY. THE NATIONAL GUARD IS COMING.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Where are smashbaords local Trump supporters? I want to know their spin on this.

 

[Deleted member]

Best case scenario is that the rioters die down and stop but I have a bad feeling that this is just the beginning.

Remember the Russian Revolution? Or the French overthrowing King Louis and installing democracy in his place? Riots like this tend to end with complete destruction of any semblance of goverment.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Best case scenario is that the rioters die down and stop but I have a bad feeling that this is just the beginning.

Remember the Russian Revolution? Or the French overthrowing King Louis and installing democracy in his place? Riots like this tend to end with complete destruction of any semblance of goverment.

I dont think we are going there. This will be seen like the baltimore riots.

 

[Deleted member]

I dont think we are going there. This will be seen like the baltimore riots.

Possibly, but I dunno. The entire spark for this riot was to stop the Senate from recounting the votes in an attempt to keep Trump in power. That’s not something that just casually ends and completely ceases. Let alone these are Trump supporters we’re talking about: I would say it’s reasonable to assume a decent portion are armed. And as history has shown, an armed population is one thing... but an angry armed population is another entirely.

As long as nothing serious happens in the few hours to come we should be fine. I’m more worried about the precedent this sets.

 

[Dutch Raikuna]

Currently watching this with one of my friends of the BBC.

Half a million people are watching this from that webpage alone.

America's allies and adversaries are watching. Well yeah me being from one of their closest allies.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Possibly, but I dunno. The entire spark for this riot was to stop the Senate from recounting the votes in an attempt to keep Trump in power. That’s not something that just casually ends and completely ceases. Let alone these are Trump supporters we’re talking about: I would say it’s reasonable to assume a decent portion are armed. And as history has shown, an armed population is one thing... but an angry armed population is another entirely.

As long as nothing serious happens in the few hours to come we should be fine. I’m more worried about the precedent this sets.

We have the majority of the country that voted for biden and this is only a few thousand of crazy. They have already stepped over the line the republicans had stayed behind. they are not winning public support. This will only end badly for them because the military and everyone know Biden has won and there is nothing a bunch of angry hicks with guns can do about it.

 

[Alicorn]

I fell asleep and woke up into a nightmare. Trump has finally done it. He has finally unleashed his protesters upon the capitol of our nation like lotus from a plague. I didn't think this would happen, it really does show how far Trump has fallen and it seems he wants to take us with him in into the flames of civil war.

 

[Deleted member]

We have the majority of the country that voted for biden and this is only a few thousand of crazy. They have already stepped over the line the republicans had stayed behind. they are not winning public support. This will only end badly for them because the military and everyone know Biden has won and there is nothing a bunch of angry hicks with guns can do about it.

The very fact they have guns is the problem. Even if they’re in the minority, all it would take is to find
and kill a few senators to completely throw the state of government into chaos.

Granted that’s like the absolute worst case zombie apocalypse scenario but it’s still a possibility which is extremely worrying, at least to me.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Where are smashbaords local Trump supporters? I want to know their spin on this.

A lot of my conservative friends and family are appalled at this but I do have a few who are saying “This should been done years ago”, “They are justified to do this after everything that happened” and “Finally, Patriots standing up against fascism and corruption.”

 

[drag0nscythe]

I fell asleep and woke up into a nightmare. Trump has finally done it. He has finally unleashed his protesters upon the capitol of our nation like lotus from a plague. I didn't think this would happen, it really does show how far Trump has fallen and it seems he wants to take us with him in into the flames of civil war.

I doubt it will go that far. Again, this is like the baltimore riots. Most of the nation is not for this. And the people being violent will lose out in the end. Best to just be peaceful for now.

A lot of my conservative friends and family are appalled at this but I do have a few who are saying “This should been done years ago”, “They are justified to do this after everything that happened” and “Finally, Patriots standing up against fascism and corruption.”

Some of your friends/family are what many like to call traitors. And when this all fails and they are left with the hole they caused, they will be seen as nothing but.

---

US Capitol secured, 4 dead after rioters stormed the halls of Congress to block Biden's win

The US Capitol is once again secured but four people are dead -- including one woman who was shot -- after supporters of President Donald Trump breached one of the most iconic American buildings, engulfing the nation's capital in chaos after Trump urged his supporters to fight against the...

www.cnn.com

Actually calling it for what it is for once. A mob.

 

[Alicorn]

You are right, though we must not take this kind of thing lightly. There must be stern consequences for Trump and his supporters actions. This cannot go unpunished the entire world is watching.

 

[Ridley64]

Non Americans, what does America look like right now?

 

[drag0nscythe]

You are right, though we must not take this kind of thing lightly. There must be stern consequences for Trump and his supporters actions. This cannot go unpunished the entire world is watching.

I agree. People need to be tried for treason. Trump needs to be impeached for inciting violence and all of the senators that supported this nonsense needs to be put up for review.

 

[Deleted member]

I doubt it will go that far. Again, this is like the baltimore riots. Most of the nation is not for this. And the people being violent will lose out in the end. Best to just be peaceful for now.

...
I’m just gonna assume you meant to quote me.

eh, longs as the possibility is there I’m gonna be a bit worried. I’m not like panicking typing frantic essays of how the nation is about to die or anything, just worried. If they’re willing,and able, to just casually match and enter on one of the most sacred and important buildings in the nation to interupt a very important senate meeting, who knows what they’ll do next.

 

[Dutch Raikuna]

Non Americans, what does America look like right now?

From Ireland. Appalled but not surprised.

 

[drag0nscythe]

...
I’m just gonna assume you meant to quote me.

eh, longs as the possibility is there I’m gonna be a bit worried. I’m not like panicking typing frantic essays of how the nation is about to die or anything, just worried. If they’re willing,and able, to just casually match and enter on one of the most sacred and important buildings in the nation to interupt a very important senate meeting, who knows what they’ll do next.

the thing is, there wont be a next. All this is going to do is stall the results a few days. What will happen is Trump is going to be under even more fire by the left, and unless the military is on his side, he is looking for a very ugly removal. The people are just hundreds of idiots. they will more than likely run away when the national guard shows up and then we will have to hope people are tried and convicted of treason.

 

[Deleted member]

Yknow I’m even more surprised it took this long until something like this happened. Trump supporters tend to be the “redneck with a heavy temper and hella guns” sterotype and considering who they follow is an even worse man it was def an inevitably something like this would happen.