Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
This.
mario's fair is actually pretty good. look at how mango uses it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XPFwS7WpOE4#t=22
I think you might be jumping the gun here. Yoshi's neutral game is pretty horrible, as it does not have many approach options and once in shield it is just about helpless, the only options being a horribly slow grab, a (vulnerable) shield roll and spot dodge; only the shield drop from platforms is a decent option if available. Super shield and jump out of super shield are good blocking options but they rely on hitting a fairly strict timeframe and predicting the hit. Double jump super armour counterattacks, i feel, are too expensive, especially in NTSC, where Yoshi has inferior weight and dies at much lower percentages. Which leads to the recovery that is also far from good. Strong attacks can hit Yoshi out of its double jump and thus gimp it easily, e.g. Falcon's stomp and knee, Fox's up-smash¹ or Falco's shine². You just need to know when not to challenge it and keep on tacking on damage until it's safe, it's not like Yoshi can do a whole lot out of its double jump anyway.
Eh, the definition of viable I used this time is different. If I'm going by the definition I used last year (being able to win a national) then there are actually 4 viable characters now IMO LOL. Sheik gets destroyed by both spacies and shouldn't ever win one, nor should puff for the horrid fox matchup. Spacies dictate the game/tier list IMO.
Well, there is a reason why he stopped putting 100% of his efforts on the MD :|
I think it would mean "assuming you are at the same level as a group of people, what are the chances of you getting a top3 placing with X character.
What exactly is the implication of the term "theory"? Fox being the "best" in "theory" has always struck me as an assumption we should just accept on faith and I feel like a great player such as yourself (someone who could potentially influence a large amount of the community's perceptions) should justify a statement like this in more detail.
Hax
I feel that no one can ever know who is the best character at perfect play. Their are too many combinations of moves and too many intricacies that it is impossible for anyone to ever analyze 100% every character, every matchup in the game.@
First off, I appreciate you clarifying what you meant by theoretical play. I agree with you that Fox/Falco are the best characters in the game at peak human play. However, I still have some doubts about Fox or Falco being the best at perfect levels of play (or TAS).
While you are right about Fox/Falco's shines being capable of beating out anything jointed and the majority of disjointed attacks, it makes the assumption that their opponent (who is also playing at TAS levels) would perform a punishable attack in the first place. If theoretical play requires perfect decision making, then neither player would put themselves at risk. If Fox shined, opponent x would PS and reset everything to neutral. Simultaneous perfect play becomes paradoxical.
A more concrete argument of yours which I can disprove is your belief that powershielding would beat everyone (especially Marth). A small misconception about powershielding physical attacks is that it doesn't negate shieldstun or shield hitlag (source: http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-approach-a-spamming-falco.198083/#post-5544062). Powershielding a character like Marth who attacks from a range could potentially make him harder to punish thanks to the increased pushback.
Regardless, I look forward to seeing your anti-laser strategies on display in the near future.
Your name references Jar Jar Binks AND 9/11. Then you try to claim you are pro while putting A Rookie and Nintendude on blast. I will give your troll a 3/10, mostly for a lack of creativity. You certainly put in the effort with the TL;DR-worthy essay, and your username is just the right amount of absurdity to remain subtle. However, the potshot about A Rookie's tag being an inferiority complex and the silly "n0nes Mario" fabrication are not as convincing. I'm curious, did you just happen to come up with n0nes randomly, or did you actually rip that from the secular female YouTube vlog channel? The third alternative I considered makes me feel a tad narcissistic, but the name is uncomfortably close to my own.
Perhaps you are really just a crush alt and this is all a metatroll. Your avatars seem based on similar tastes of style, and it would fall in line with the Bones0 vs. cartilage0ne vs. n0ne joke... I'm on to you...
What? what is this? What are you guys on about, tl,dr. Was off smashboards for quite a while.
the guy who posted above me was talking about how good your mario was, and bones didn't believe you were real and mistook you for some youtuber within his intellectual bubble.
He did change a lot of people's opinions on yoshi's worst matchups though (with results). It might not be "new" in that it's existed forever, but it's new in the fact that it's tech that hasn't been used consistently (or at all) in high level play. It's presence changes matchups, which then changes results, which then influences the tier list.
Lol that's a loaded question. Of course Marth will never land a hit/grab if PS/spot dodges are perfect, but that wasn't my point. My point is that he will never be punished which is something you said would happen in your initial response. PSing a perfectly spaced Marth fair, nair, uair, fsmash, or dtilt will serve to make the move safer than it already was (unless its a Marth ditto).
Like I said though two people applying the best option creates a paradox. If shine can counter attacks, why would their opponent ever attack? Likewise, if the best option is to walk up and shine, then the best response would be to powershield. Everything would stay in neutral.
Exactly what i thought. Nice explanationSo I don't really care about Yoshi's placement on the tier list, but in a TAS setting, multishining is actually unsafe vs Yoshi because he can parry every shine, and punish with DJC Nair. Fox gets stuck in hitlag during the parry, while Yoshi isn't stuck, and has enough of a frame advantage to do a few things, including parry as many shines as he wants.
But that would be inefficient anyway, because as soon as Fox goes for the second shine, his frame disadvantage on parry is enough for this to happen:
Falco doesn't even get the chance to do a second shine because of increased hitlag/jumpsquat.
