2013 Community Tier List

[menotyou135]

Anybody think that Luigi is a bit low on the tier list?

There are a lot of really good Luigis from my experience. Does it just have to do with him being more popular in the southeast or something?

 

[PanzerOceania]

Young Link and Yoshi need to move up

 

[Bones0]

If you think hbox is bad at the fox match-up, then i dont know how to even begin discussion... Hbox is literally the best puff against fox, to the point where many people misjudge how bad the match-up actually is for her. And yet, it is still very clear that puff loses on a fundamental level.

I was talking with TaFo at EVO and he went as far as to say that puff isn't a viable character because of her virtually unwinnable match-up with fox. His argument was that hbox beats the vast majority of fox players by outplaying them, but even now you see the gap closing. He said that before you would see hbox sweeping foxes, but now fox players from a caliber below hbox are consistently taking games, and that soon that gap will close completely.

I dont know if I agree to that extreme (I believe reads trump "perfect" play), but it is hard to refute the evidence. In any case, I think the fact that hbox beat armada's YL in 2 sets at EVO and lost to Mango's Fox in 2 sets shows how much better fox is than young link for the purpose of beating puff.

Of course Hbox is the best Puff vs. Fox. There are no other really good Puffs... Hbox bopped Foxes back when no one knew anything about the character and he was getting gimps, rests, and general bair spam to work on a consistent basis. It seems like his gimmicks stopped working and he has yet to replace them more than Puff is incapable of doing anything. Every single tourney he is doing the same flowcharts, the same air movement, and only recently has he started to mix it up. And what do you know, he's been taking Mango to game 5s the past few tourneys. Saying Puff isn't viable is a joke after Hbox got 2nd at Evo with all Puff...

As I become better in the game my understanding of how things work is better too. Here's my new tier list, it's closer to the real tier list but still not quite. Why is my tier list so far off from the original? Am I not seeing something?

What you fail to see is there is no real tier list. It is utterly irrelevant how close your tier list is to the average tier list.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Depends on your definition of "viable". I think tafo meant it in the sense of "viable to win a tournament", in which case I can agree. Part of the reason hbox did so well at EVO is that he only played 1 fox before he met mango in winners finals. He didn't have to play Silent Wolf or Leffen or Fiction or M2K. He played zero, but I didn't see how that set went.

M2K and Armada just finished streaming, with Armada playing all fox. I didnt have sound on much, but I heard them saying that Armada is focusing on learning fox. I don't think hbox will ever win a tournament going through m2k, mango and armada's foxes in a row.

 

[1MachGO]

Mind explaining how Mario is even with Sheik and Falcon and not Doc? I could understand Mario losing against Sheik a little less than Doc does (same w/ Falcon), but I'm not understanding how Mario is better against the two when he literally has only 1 kill option against both of them...

Sorry for the late reply. To explain why Mario does better vs. Sheik/Falcon, I'm going to reiterate the baseline distinctions between Mario and Doc as characters. Doc is a character with great single hit potential (giving him an above average poke game), decent projectile, amazing edgeguarding, and a terrible recovery. Mario is an average character with an abundance of okay tools and a very safe, close-range recovery.

When it comes to the Sheik and Falcon MU, Mario and Doc both share a distinct default-issue: their lack of relative range. However, lack of range isn't necessarily an issue if your attacks can still demand respect. I would say that Mario with his generally safer on shield aerials, transcend priority disjointed fsmash, combo starting utilt, and better jab allow him to demand more respect in neutral.

Another issue is that several of Doc's tools become irrelevant. For example, his strong poke game reaps little reward against heavy characters such as Falcon and a character with a strong close range recovery like Sheik. Combos into percents and definitive edge guard set ups are more preferable. Doc's strength as an edge guarder also become somewhat pointless when Falcon is such as a free edge guard for most characters at top level play and in the case of Sheik, perhaps even worse due to his lesser offstage capabilities outside of low percent bair kills.

Mario also has superior defensive capabilities against Falcon and Sheik. The higher trajectory of fireballs act as better tools against the lateral edgeguarding from Falcon, and Mario's cape lift gives him an understated tool against Sheik's needles.

Overall, its pretty minor, albeit noticeable changes that affect their respective MUs. Doc can still win in these MUs, but I feel Mario has enough tools to equalize the effort for himself and his opponent.

What is your basis for thinking that Marth vs Samus is 65-35? I want direct matchup related reasoning or I'm not buying it.

The reason why I think that is basically an even matchup is firstly because I have played it myself and struggled to beat Samus as Marth. Whereas when I play Sheik I can win with considerable less difficulty over Samus. Marth's forward-air is nice and all, but a Samus who is not terrible will constantly be moving, and they will always attempt to stay just barely outside of your f-air range. Downtilt and grab are good options for Marth as well, but down-tilt doesn't have that much reward and can occasionally get you d-smashed with bad DI if Samus is quick to react with her own ground options. Samus f-tilt comes out faster than any of Marth's moves barring jab, and has massive range. It can keep you pinned by the edge with repeated use and is very hard to break through. Any time that Samus gets ANY stray hit, she either gets to charge her shot for free or gets amazing positioning by chasing you with auto cancelled missiles. Grabbing and u-throwing Samus doesn't get you guaranteed juggle setups because of her bomb maneuverability.

You have to rack up so much damage on Samus before your hits send her anywhere, and even if you do send her offstage, she can just recover high and make it hard for you to lock her down on the edge.

Marth's recover is actually much easier to edgeguard than Samus's, despite what others may have said. In short, Samus has better survivability, advantage in neutral because of projectiles, and gets more from her hits because they set her up for missile pressure for free.

Thus she can hang with a top tier like Marth.

Marth and Samus are both ground based characters but Marth has better tools for said archetype in addition to possessing air mobility that isn't complete garbage. Marth's run in/wavedash dtilt is an extremely simple way to abuse Samus's need to stay grounded and Marth's capabilities in terms of constantly punishing a Samus for staying airborne are among the best in the game; even if she has bombs.

All Marth really has to do in the MU is remain aggressive to nullify missiles/poke game/wavedash back shenanigans from becoming present during neutral and remain patient but precise during the punish/edge guard game.

 

[F-ric]

Anybody think that Luigi is a bit low on the tier list?

There are a lot of really good Luigis from my experience. Does it just have to do with him being more popular in the southeast or something?

Tournament success isn't the only factor for this, but I feel like he should be closer to Doc than Mario.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Marth and Samus are both ground based characters but Marth has better tools for said archetype in addition to possessing air mobility that isn't complete garbage. Marth's run in/wavedash dtilt is an extremely simple way to abuse Samus's need to stay grounded and Marth's capabilities in terms of constantly punishing a Samus for staying airborne are among the best in the game; even if she has bombs.

All Marth really has to do in the MU is remain aggressive to nullify missiles/poke game/wavedash back shenanigans from becoming present during neutral and remain patient but precise during the punish/edge guard game.

In theory, you present a good argument. But there are many subtler aspects to the matchup that most people don't consider. Generally, you have "great" options for controlling Samus, but you have to be incredibly consistent. One slip up and all your hard-earned advantage from spacing can get equalized with a string of Samus counterplay (which will eventually happen since typically the matchup drags on for a VERY long time).

It seems so nice to be able to approach and pressure Samus out of her missile game with down-tilt. However, it has flaws that are easy to miss: firstly, d-tilt doesn't yield much reward. If you don't tip it, Samus will get pushed back only slightly and be more or less unfazed. If you tip it, you barely get any frame advantage still, and typically Samus will have time to react and shield or dodge your follow-up. Secondly, wavedashes can be reacted to and stuffed with a tilt of Samus's own, her f-tilt (4 frames start-up, and downward angled can stuff your advances). Thirdly, if you misspace it even slightly, it can be crouch cancelled to down-smash, potentially killing you at mid percents (because your DI will be down). Furthermore, if she manages to barely dodge the down-tilt hitbox, it's possible for her to wavedash in and downsmash you while your down-tilt hitbox is still retracting, catching you in a similarly DI'd predicament probably offstage and flailing to recover.

Care to discuss the "unstoppable" down-tilt further?

 

[1MachGO]

In theory, you present a good argument. But there are many subtler aspects to the matchup that most people don't consider. Generally, you have "great" options for controlling Samus, but you have to be incredibly consistent. One slip up and all your hard-earned advantage from spacing can get equalized with a string of Samus counterplay (which will eventually happen since typically the matchup drags on for a VERY long time).

It seems so nice to be able to approach and pressure Samus out of her missile game with down-tilt. However, it has flaws that are easy to miss: firstly, d-tilt doesn't yield much reward. If you don't tip it, Samus will get pushed back only slightly and be more or less unfazed. If you tip it, you barely get any frame advantage still, and typically Samus will have time to react and shield or dodge your follow-up. Secondly, wavedashes can be reacted to and stuffed with a tilt of Samus's own, her f-tilt (4 frames start-up, and downward angled can stuff your advances). Thirdly, if you misspace it even slightly, it can be crouch cancelled to down-smash, potentially killing you at mid percents (because your DI will be down). Furthermore, if she manages to barely dodge the down-tilt hitbox, it's possible for her to wavedash in and downsmash you while your down-tilt hitbox is still retracting, catching you in a similarly DI'd predicament probably offstage and flailing to recover.

Care to discuss the "unstoppable" down-tilt further?

First off, here is a great example of how effective dtilt is in the MU: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSr8E3HkKAU#t=972

Some stuff you said that isn't true:

Dtilt doesn't yield much reward
Other than establishing stage control. Remember, Samus is a ground based character. Going airborne isn't her best move so losing ground space has a tendency to affect her more than other characters. In the above clip, we see PP push Hugs to the edge with downtilt and proceed to apply pressure once she has no room to escape. Guaranteed follow ups aren't the only kind of reward (and if we are talking about that, Marth has waaaaay more combo opportunities in the MU than Samus)

Samus can react to the follow up with shield/dodge
What about dtilt again?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSr8E3HkKAU#t=961

Dtilt has ridiculously short cool down and can punish most spot dodges as well as shield pressure when spaced (especially vs. a character with an abysmally slow grab like Samus). Its shield pressure is also extremely safe and can't even be punished by a frame perfect wavedash out of shield shine from Fox (which is better than anything Samus has for this given situation). She theoretically has no safe options vs. well spaced dtilt pressure.

Samus's ftilt is 4 frames on start up
No, its 6 frames on start up. It also has 10 more frames of cooldown than Marth's dtilt and isn't a disjointed sword attack, making it far more of a commitment to use.

Misspacing dtilt can be punished and a whiffed dtilt can be punished by WD dsmash
Anything misspaced can be punished. However, I would contend that Marth has more opportunities to punish misspacing since he doesn't have to physically extend himself as much while attacking. His mobility options are also superior to Samus's which gives him far more maneuvering to bait attacks and mobilize his own offense.

And whiffed dtilt cannot be punished by WD dsmash. The wavedash alone takes 14 frames and there is only 11 frames before Marth is actionable after the last hitboxes of dtilt.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sorry about that mistake on the f-tilt frame data. I was quoting another character's f-tilt timing from memory and thought it was Samus, but I guess not.

Still, your use of frame data to contradict my statement about d-smashing a whiffed d-tilt shows that you are still a bit rudimentary in your application. You are operating under the false assumption that Samus cannot start the wavedash while the d-tilt hitbox is still out. She can simply because 1. Her d-smash reaches far therefore she doesn't have to travel far into Marth's d-tilt hitbox to be within range to d-smash. 2. She can wavedash to this range such that she only enters the range of Marth's d-tilt very soon after the d-tilt begins to retract; in other words, there are overlapping frames:

The first 4 frames Samus doesn't move forward at all because she is still in the jumping animation. Then she slides forward fairly quickly, but still 7-10 frames pass before she is at the end of the wavedash length. D-smash takes 5 frames to come out, so she has about 6 frames of a window to land the d-smash on Marth.

Remember that PPMD is at a level of spacing and precision that outclasses Mew2King, who people call a robot. If Marth slightly misspaces and doesn't tip just one d-tilt, he will eat a CC and lose stage control to Samus's missile barrage.

Samus may not have a tool as speedy in recovery as Marth's d-tilt, but she still has high class ground-based pokes. Her d-tilt has phenomenal range (though laggy compared with her f-tilt). Samus's out of shield is also exceptional; even without shield grabbing as an option, her wavedash out of shield game is great and up-b out of shield can deal with Marth's frame traps (like late fair->dash dance behind shield).

Ultimately, when in range of Marth's d-tilt, Samus can essentially spam shield and wavedash out of shield, and any time Marth is closer to her than tip range she just holds down on the control stick.

 

[1MachGO]

Still, your use of frame data to contradict my statement about d-smashing a whiffed d-tilt shows that you are still a bit rudimentary in your application. You are operating under the false assumption that Samus cannot start the wavedash while the d-tilt hitbox is still out. She can simply because 1. Her d-smash reaches far therefore she doesn't have to travel far into Marth's d-tilt hitbox to be within range to d-smash. 2. She can wavedash to this range such that she only enters the range of Marth's d-tilt very soon after the d-tilt begins to retract; in other words, there are overlapping frames:

The first 4 frames Samus doesn't move forward at all because she is still in the jumping animation. Then she slides forward fairly quickly, but still 7-10 frames pass before she is at the end of the wavedash length. D-smash takes 5 frames to come out, so she has about 6 frames of a window to land the d-smash on Marth.

I'm not entirely sure if you entirely understand the mechanics of wavedashing. You are not actionable during jumpstart frames (3 for Samus + airborne frame) and landing lag frames from air dodge (10 frames). So for Samus, it takes her 14 frames for wavedash to complete and an additional 6 before the hitbox of dsmash to come out.

In total, Samus's wavedash>dsmash would take 20 frames to initiate. Dtilt itself is also only 20 frames in total. The only way Samus could punish Marth for whiffing dtilt with wavedash>dsmash is if she performed it at the exact same time as Marth. At which point, it wouldn't be a punish, it'd be an outright read.

I am not being rudimentary. The sheer mechanics of wavedash>dsmash being a viable counterattack against a whiffed dtilt are outright impossible on reaction.

Remember that PPMD is at a level of spacing and precision that outclasses Mew2King, who people call a robot. If Marth slightly misspaces and doesn't tip just one d-tilt, he will eat a CC and lose stage control to Samus's missile barrage.

1. You seem to be assuming that PPMD is the only Marth capable or will be capable of good spacing with Marth's dtilt.

2. You also seem to be assuming that all Samus's will be crouching when Marth misspaces his dtilt.

Samus may not have a tool as speedy in recovery as Marth's d-tilt, but she still has high class ground-based pokes. Her d-tilt has phenomenal range (though laggy compared with her f-tilt). Samus's out of shield is also exceptional; even without shield grabbing as an option, her wavedash out of shield game is great and up-b out of shield can deal with Marth's frame traps (like late fair->dash dance behind shield).

Untipped fair is -1 on block when fresh and hitting on the same frame Marth is landing. Marth cannot be shield grabbed or punished OoS before Marth is able to shield/dash and protect himself. Samus doesn't actually have great OoS options aside from the polarity of Up-B which is really only good against Fox/Falco shield pressure

Ultimately, when in range of Marth's d-tilt, Samus can essentially spam shield and wavedash out of shield, and any time Marth is closer to her than tip range she just holds down on the control stick.

I have already established that Marth's dtilt vs. shield is extremely favorable for Marth in the last post. "Spamming shield" is a horrible idea for Samus and her best method for getting out of shield against a character like Marth is to wavedash back which gives up stage and makes dtilt and aerials all the more threatening.

 

[Bones0]

I'm not entirely sure if you entirely understand the mechanics of wavedashing. You are not actionable during jumpstart frames (3 for Samus + airborne frame) and landing lag frames from air dodge (10 frames). So for Samus, it takes her 14 frames for wavedash to complete and an additional 6 before the hitbox of dsmash to come out.

I'm not sure you understand the mechanics of WDing either since you don't need to be airborne for a frame before airdodging. lol You can go directly from jumpsquat to landing lag.

 

[1MachGO]

I'm not sure you understand the mechanics of WDing either since you don't need to be airborne for a frame before airdodging. lol You can go directly from jumpsquat to landing lag.

You are correct. For some reason I thought that you had to be airborne before you could initiate the airdodge but this input can be done at the very end of jumpsquat. Regardless, my math is only affected by 1 frame and my main points still stand.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

In any case, ChivalRuse's arguments are pretty awful. I agree with 1MachGO 100% that dtilt is a problem for samus. Because of it's extension and low lag, the only way to punish is to hit marth in the head. The only way she can do that without jumping is utilt, but no way marth is going to miss a stationary samus with a dtilt approach. Maybe samuses should learn pivot utilt for the matchup Kappa

 

[ChivalRuse]

I never said that d-tilt wasn't a problem for Samus ... I was showing that it can be played around just like any other strategy.

Also, did you know that d-tilt is more than 20 frames unless you interrupt its endling lag with another move? Therefore, you cannot shield. You would have to walk forward into shield, which takes additional frames.

I might have to reword myself - spamming shield is a vulgar way of me trying to describe aggressive movement into shield to bait out moves with subpar spacing.

 

[Bones0]

I never said that d-tilt wasn't a problem for Samus ... I was showing that it can be played around just like any other strategy.

Also, did you know that d-tilt is more than 20 frames unless you interrupt its endling lag with another move? Therefore, you cannot shield. You would have to walk forward into shield, which takes additional frames.

I might have to reword myself - spamming shield is a vulgar way of me trying to describe aggressive movement into shield to bait out moves with subpar spacing.

You only have to walk 1 frame to shield out of IASA frames...

And you can buffer both inputs.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah I know. I've tested this.

 

[Mr. Jam]

S: Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Jigglypuff, Peach, C.Falcon, Ice Climbers
A: Dr. Mario, Pikachu, Samus, Ganondorf, Luigi, Mario
B: Young Link, Link, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Zelda, Roy, Mewtwo, Game & Watch
F: Ness, Bowser, Pichu, Kirby​

Tier Name Translations
S- Top Tier, Viable. All characters in this range are viable for competing.
A- Mid Tier, Semi-Viable. These characters have been shown by their dedicated players to have the tools to compete, though it is apparent that they are slightly disadvantaged.
B- Low Tier, Probably Not Viable. Some players have done well with these characters in specific match-ups, but for the most part they aren't viable for winning tournaments.
F- Bottom Tier, Not Viable.

Voters: BladeWise, Dart!, Diakonos, Divinokage, Hax, HoChiMinhTrail, hungrybox, HyugaRicdeau, Juggleguy, KevinM, King Funk, Mogwai, Nintendude1189, Paju, Pink Reaper, Pluplue, Redd, Ripple, SleepyK, Strong Bad, SuperMatt, Sveet, SwiftBass, TaFoKiNtS, Tero., The Good Doctor, VaNz, Yeroc

Community Results

Voters: see 2nd post...

Spoiler

Personal Rules:

When you vote, your opinion is a reflection of your own experiences with the game. Each person should think of their own tier list and not be voting based on someone else's opinion.

It is taboo to judge someone based on their skill, but in this case it is a necessary evil. Regardless of what you put here, I will count your vote, though it may not be used in the calculation of the "official" result. I haven't followed the tournament scene very well, much less the individual region's scenes, so do your best to help me. Include as much information about your tournament experience as possible, such as:

• Top placings. Make sure to include this information:
  • Size of the tournament (number of entrants as well as the entry fee)
  • Notable players who attended
  • Who you actually beat and/or out placed
• Best tournament victories
• Players who you consider yourself to be of about even skill with. Include your tournament record with them, if known.
• Any players in your community who I could contact as a personal reference and/or to verify information provided.

Voting Rules:

Please follow these rules carefully and completely, I will not be able to count your vote at all if you do not. I understand if you disagree with ordering some characters or another facet of the tier list, but this isn't the place to make your argument. If you have any comments or criticisms, please PM me or post on my visitor wall.

• You must order all characters.
  • If you see two characters as tied, order them in any way you would prefer. I plan to emphasize tier placement over ordering in the compiled list, so do not get strung up over details this small.
• You must include all characters. Please double check you have them all (there are 26 characters in melee).
• Do not include tier divisions, simply list the characters in order (vertically). Tier divisions will be determined after voting is done. If you would like to include divisions for discussion purposes, simply put a blank line where you feel the division is.
• Each Person only gets one vote. If you vote twice I will count neither. Feel free to go back and edit your post any time before the deadline.
• You are not required to post an explanation behind your tier list, but it encouraged especially if you have unique placings. I will not be using this information in the tier list itself, but it would be very beneficial to the discussion around the lists.

Test

 

[Mr. Jam]

100-90%
1. Fox 98%
2. Falco 94%
3. Jiggilypuff 92%
89-80%
4. Marth 86%
5. Sheik 82%
79-70%
6. Peach 76%
7. Captain Falcon 71%
8. Ice Climbers 70%
69-60%
9. Pikachu 68%
10. Yoshi 67%
11. Dr Mario 67%
12. Luigi 61%
59-50%
13. Samus 58%
14. Ganon 52%
49-40%
15. Young Link 49%
16. Mario 47%
39-30%
17. Link 39%
18. Mewtwo 37%
19. Roy 33%
20. Donkey Kong 31%
29-20%
21. Pichu 29%
22. Mr Game And Watch 29%
19%-10%
23. Ness 18%
24. Bowser 14%
25. Zelda 11%
9%-0%
26. Kirby 9%

 

[Mr. Jam]

Anybody think that Luigi is a bit low on the tier list?

There are a lot of really good Luigis from my experience. Does it just have to do with him being more popular in the southeast or something?

In my opinion he is better than Doctor Mario

 

[Mr. Jam]

• Top placings.
  • I've attended quite a few nationals, ie Apex 2012, Apex 2013, Genesis 1, Genesis 2, as well as a few large regionals, ie NCR, Rule 6 Regional.
  • I've beaten Chu Dat, Mango, Silent Wolf, Lovage, Shroomed, Zhu, Westballz
• I'm basically even in skill with Silent Wolf
• You can ask Silent Wolf to confirm these.

Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
Peach
Puff
Falcon
IC's
Doc
Ganon
Samus
Pikachu
Luigi
Mario
Young Link
Link
DK
Yoshi
Roy
Ness
Mewtwo
G&W
Zelda
Bowser
PIchu
Kirby

We have an identical top 8 with Kirby at bottom and Samus and Ganon are together!! Awesome

 

[Mr. Jam]

Be nice everyone.. >.>;

Kinda shocked on many people Yoshi's placing(s) Kinda happy, that many want to move him up.. <3

This project is interesting...

I suck at this game though, and don't know how to compile a good list, off of "proper logic".. idk I can try?

I put him at 11. He is so unexplored and has so much potential, it's the same with Pika

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Please stop spamming. If you would like to address multiple topics, consolidate it to a single post. Thank you.

 

[Mr. Jam]

Please stop spamming. If you would like to address multiple topics, consolidate it to a single post. Thank you.

I'm really sorry.. I just made an account yesterday, and I don't know much about anything here.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If you are new, you should spend some time reading the rules and stickies before posting.

 

[Phyanketto]

The 2014 list is going to have Pika 1 spot higher, perhaps 2, mostly thanks to Axe's dominating performances lately comparted to how he did in 2013. Plus, pikachad and anther are doing better than anticipated.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How would pikachu go up any farther? He isn't better than doc or falcon. Results =/= ranking

 

[Mr. Jam]

How would pikachu go up any farther? He isn't better than doc or falcon. Results =/= ranking

I think he's better than doc, sure there's a lot more doc players, but, pikachu is very unexplored, I feel that he has a lot of hidden potential.


But that's just my opinion:/


What do you guys think about Yoshi moving up? Do you think it'll happen?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its inevitable. He is at least more viable than the Links

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sure he'll move up. But he won't ever be a better character than Samus. Please stop being an extremist lol.

 

[Snowbird]

Pikachu, Ylink, and Yoshi have nowhere to go but up.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Alright, I've gone to some more tournaments in Toronto, been smashing with some other good to amazing players, and I've been re-thinking my tier list. So, after playing some really good Canadian players and some at my level of skill, I've decided to revise my tier list:

Top
Fox
Falco
Sheik
Jiggly Puffs

High
Marth
Peach
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers

Mid-High
Pikachu
Samus
Mario M.D.
Luigi

Mid
Falcondorf
Mario
Yoshi
Young Link

Mid-Low
Link
DK
Mewtwo

Low
Roy
Zelda
G&W

Bottom
Ness
Bowser
Pichu
Kirby

 

[ChivalRuse]

It needs to be understood that Luigi and Doc >>>>>> Mario. I don't get why people have been treating Mario like he belongs in the same class. Luigi and Doc actually have options that can scare you. Mario has no way to put the fear in your heart.

 

[john!]

has any new yoshi technology been discovered since this list was made? if not, why would you move up yoshi?

 

[DavemanCozy]

has any new yoshi technology been discovered since this list was made? if not, why would you move up yoshi?

Not necessarily new tech being discovered, but just better use of it. aMSa has found many ways to boost Yoshi's punish game and move even faster with him since 2013, as he showed in Kings of Cali and Apex this year.

While I don't think he should be ranked any higher than Mario, I would argue that Yoshi is at least a better character than Link. So yes, he should move up from his current position for sure.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Depends on your definition of "discovered". I don't think many people understood his strengths and weaknesses until relatively recently, mostly due to the small number of [good] yoshi players. In terms of defense, yoshi might be the best character in the game; attacking his shield is pointless and his parry and double jump armor give him a lot of "I dare you to hit me" situations. He also has a lot of guaranteed combos and punishes, a pretty good projectile and hes one of the heaviest characters. He doesn't struggle to kill. His main weaknesses are in his approach and neutral game (assuming you don't bite at his baits).

So ya, I think yoshi is definitely more viable than Link and DK. He is probably closer to mario and ganon.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yoshi is probably the most difficult character to play. His tech skill requirements are insane and in order to get first hits you have to be so sneaky with you double jump cancels. Jumping in the first place is kind of risky because he doesn't have very good aerial hitboxes. It's easy for him to get swatted away coming down. Basically, he's just an incredibly skill-intensive character, and most people don't have the execution or godlike game sense to play him optimally.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Not gonna explain, sorry. Just dumping my thoughts in case I want to revisit them later. They change often, but here they are now:

Fox
Marth
Puff

Sheik
Falco
Peach

Pikachu
ICs
Falcon

Yoshi
Samus
Doc

Mario
Luigi

Young Link
Ganon

Link
DK

Mewtwo
Pichu
G&W

Roy
Ness

Kirby
Zelda
Bowser

 

[Juggleguy]

Not gonna explain, sorry. Just dumping my thoughts in case I want to revisit them later. They change often, but here they are now:

Fox
Marth
Puff

Sheik
Falco
Peach

Pikachu
ICs
Falcon

Yoshi
Samus
Doc

Mario
Luigi

Young Link
Ganon

Link
DK

Mewtwo
Pichu
G&W

Roy
Ness

Kirby
Zelda
Bowser

This is some radical ass ****.

Carry on.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Yeah. I don't do it to be controversial; I think time has proven that the "consensus" is (still) very wrong. Due to Melee's complexity, a respected opinion is often used as a crutch to make up for a lack of understanding; it's no coincidence that M2K makes a post about Falco and Pichu and they skyrocket on everyone's lists.

I just try to look at the game. And this is what I see, right now.

 

[CHIP_FLOS]

How do people feel about Pikachu's position?

Should he get a move on the tier list, or is Axe just godly?