Production Values and the Smash Community

prog · Nov 21, 2012

Just got into work, I have a show airing in a little over a month, but this came up and has been on my mind all morning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH6hq7FBviE&feature=plcp

So basically, we started with videos being hosted on the DC++ hub, then youtube channels and waiting for subscribes to update, and now we have instant transmission through streaming. Our hardcore fans were part of the first two and part of the third, however, we have a larger community as well now. We have people who may know nothing about the game sit there and watch. This is our opportunity to outshine other communities by teaching them about our game in between entertaining them with tournament play. That being said:

1. An updated how to play video. Covering it all, one video. Wak did a great job but it can be updated now.
2. A shorter video, 2 or 3 minutes. Goes into the most common advanced techniques, our stage lists, and the most basic aspects of tournament play, as well as a link to smashboards and other pertinent smash topics.
3. Samox giving an excerpt (:30-:60) of a part of smash history as well as promoting the Smash Documentary. Displays the depth of this community, its history, and a stellar project that he is in the midst of.
4. Videos (:20-:30) explaining keys to common matchups for both characters. (Thanks Eggm for this idea)
5. Getting the MANifest series out of the way (this is my fault, but work has had me locked down without time to really edit. If anyone wants to take over this project, let me know).

2, 3 and 4 can go over button checks and other stream downtime. 1 is just a good look for the community, 5 will be great if I ever get time.

Thoughts, additional ideas?

KrIsP! · Nov 21, 2012

I love this idea. I think Impulse did something kind of similar, I remember tinman explaining a brawl technique that was prerecorded while games were being switched, not sure if they did that much, it would be nice over button checks lol

Definitely a lot of stuff we can do here, even show past clips like a real sport, explain the ken combo with a video of ken doing it. And I've been saying we need an updated how to play video for a long time now, at the very least a new and improved guide stickies here, it's actually not all that easy for people to find information when they're new.

Not really good idea, more of a joke I posted in the apex thread but I was thinking of recording people's hands during button checks and doing a spoof "Who's that Pokemon" with whatever character they decided to play. Not really informative or useful though >.>

standardtoaster · Nov 21, 2012

Hahaha who's that character would be pretty funny

Gea · Nov 21, 2012

prog said:
our stage lists

Love the plurality there. No really, I do. This sounds like a great idea and I don't want it hampered by people trying to push some unified ruleset or something.

Revven · Nov 21, 2012

All these should definitely happen.

Lovage · Nov 21, 2012

theres some threads floating around in the MBR but they suck as of now, i'll keep u guys posted

KrIsP! · Nov 21, 2012

Please do...and make sure button checks are at least discussed.

Lovage · Nov 21, 2012

what's there to discuss

NEW MBR OFFICIAL RECOMENDED RULE UPDATE: if u take as long as either 90 seconds or 2 minutes to warm up to the TV you officialy lose the right to play your main color in a ditto match

democracy in action

MattDotZeb · Nov 21, 2012

prog said:
1. An updated how to play video. Covering it all, one video. Wak did a great job but it can be updated now.
2. A shorter video, 2 or 3 minutes. Goes into the most common advanced techniques, our stage lists, and the most basic aspects of tournament play, as well as a link to smashboards and other pertinent smash topics.

I'm on it.

❀W.E.M.P.❀ · Nov 21, 2012

Prog, you are the mother ****ing man

Scar · Nov 21, 2012

subscribed bc it's awesome

KirbyKaze · Nov 21, 2012

Lovage said:
what's there to discuss

NEW MBR OFFICIAL RECOMENDED RULE UPDATE: if u take as long as either 90 seconds or 2 minutes to warm up to the TV you officialy lose the right to play your main color in a ditto match

democracy in action

Sweet, I'll get white vs M2K from now on =D

Gea · Nov 21, 2012

But his time didn't count because his controller was messing up!

Cactuar · Nov 21, 2012

That's why he had to needle cancel for 20 minutes.

Juggleguy · Nov 21, 2012

I've always been disappointed at how difficult it is for casuals to access the inner workings of the competitive scene. This would be a step in the right direction.

Pakman · Nov 21, 2012

I like the idea of Smash History being a part of down time on streams during tournaments.

One suggestions would be to advertise OLD videos. Something like a quick video that talks about Mango's big win at Pound 3 versus M2K with a few clips and links to the old videos.

Nothing makes people want to play/learn smash than watching hype important matches. There was a video I saw recently where Amsah talked about his epic comeback (link). I find stuff like that to be really interesting. Shorter versions of things like that might be worth getting together.

Scar · Nov 21, 2012

PAKMAN WHY ARE YOU HERE

AND WHY ARE YOU STILL A MOD

booo

sup dude

Pakman · Nov 21, 2012

I am subscribed to prog's videos and was linked here from the one he posted. Also, I still mod the Luigi boards.

I am good bro, how is casa Scarduzio?

Scar · Nov 21, 2012

good

a lot better now that i've seen your homsar profile

trying to get a lot done in not a lot of time though

Ryuker · Nov 21, 2012

All sound like good ideas to show on stream in between matches. What about showing replays after matches are over (or in between matches) with commentary show key moments during a match?
Has anyone ever looked into something like that seriously?

KirbyKaze · Nov 21, 2012

Okay now for some actual input

1) How to Play Video

Is this a "How to Use <thing>" video or more of a "How do Perform <thing>" video? I understand that you want something "covering it all" but that's not only impossible (this game is too complicated) but there is inevitably going to be a focus towards either "how to do it" versus "how to use it". Similarly, how should be structuring such a thing?

2) I think this is a great idea. Having the common rulesets available on video, how stage striking works, etc. is probably a good thing.

3) I think explaining a trick in a MU or with a character for 20-30 seconds could be an excellent thing actually and it beats the hell out of watching a button check. Showing how to SDI Fox's uair (and the various ways to do it, and how Fox can interact with it [if there's enough time leftover]), or showing how to escape Peach's ledge stand > d-smash edgeguard on characters with onstage recovery lag, or even slightly more complicated analysis (like, say, the merits of DIing away from an edgeguarder when you're hit offstage to escape soft move > strong move) are probably way more interesting than poofstall > ledgedash > dash RNS > FF > poofstall > ledgedash over and over to make sure your stick and buttons are working. I actually have a lot of things that could go here.

I'd also think that - if it were possible - you could stamp certain times during the match that were particularly interesting if they merit more discussion or analysis than was given during the time of the match (since a lot happens, so commentators often have to speak 2 seconds about an event then move on to the next one). This way you could kind of have a "match highlights" like they do in sports or if something kind of neat happened. And by stamping the time, you could go back and talk about it with the replay on hand.

KrIsP! · Nov 21, 2012

Ryuker said:
All sound like good ideas to show on stream in between matches. What about showing replays after matches are over (or in between matches) with commentary show key moments during a match?
Has anyone ever looked into something like that seriously?

I think this would be too hard for our streamers. To simultaneously stream, record and then find an interesting section to be viewed and commentated in a short amount of time while more people are coming to play...I dunno maybe they can do it but I feel like it'd take more equipment, though it is a nice idea.

KirbyKaze said:
I'd also think that - if it were possible - you could stamp certain times during the match that were particularly interesting if they merit more discussion or analysis than was given during the time of the match (since a lot happens, so commentators often have to speak 2 seconds about an event then move on to the next one). This way you could kind of have a "match highlights" like they do in sports or if something kind of neat happened. And by stamping the time, you could go back and talk about it with the replay on hand.

This on the other hand seems more feasible. Unless you mean immediately after the match is finished, then it falls under what the streamers are capable of. Maybe it's possible, I don't know how fast something can be recorded and viewed for a stream.

Lovage · Nov 21, 2012

@ "how to play video"

has to be done w/ an OCremix of the original how to play music (ask m2k to commission somebody)

has to have pro players demonstrating the concepts individually. if there's a 3 second fox clip its a clip of JMAN if it's a 5 second clip its a clip of AZEN etc

everyones dreamed of that at least one time right? the original how to play video is soooooo ****ing legit when you first loaded up melee in 2001.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10mA9NR7yLA

Scar · Nov 21, 2012

Lovage said:
has to be done w/ an OCremix of the original how to play music (ask m2k to commission somebody)

holy ****

:o

Pengie · Nov 21, 2012

As far a replays are concerned, iirc sp00ky had an instant replay bit during the down time between matches at one of the curly mustache tournaments so the idea isn't unheard of in streams. It's a really nice idea for keeping viewers interested in between matches.

Lovage · Nov 21, 2012

KirbyKaze said:
Is this a "How to Use <thing>" video or more of a "How do Perform <thing>" video? I understand that you want something "covering it all" but that's not only impossible (this game is too complicated) but there is inevitably going to be a focus towards either "how to do it" versus "how to use it". Similarly, how should be structuring such a thing?

as i said, the book of melee needs an author, cept it needs TEN authors

if anyones curious, for reference: the marvel book costs 2 authors, and the starcraft book costs 5 authors.

Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir · Nov 21, 2012

I liked what VGBC was doing at FC where if a cool combo happened during the match they replayed it when the match ended.

Lovage · Nov 22, 2012

here's an FPS game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SFjW3XjU_A

Fuzzyness · Nov 22, 2012

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=330080

Im gonna give some Tutorials / Matchup Advice a shot through twitch/youtube streaming

A new how to play video should be done by someone with good video editing skills because I'm personally not the guy for that

VoiD- · Nov 22, 2012

On the subject of stream filler time:

I think having a tournament-specific intro would be great. Obviously this would only be feasible for the big international tournaments since it can be expensive and/or time consuming, but a professionally done intro is a great way to bridge gaps in events that traditionally have a lot of down time. It would be very difficult to make it happen but it would be great for a tournament.

Even a lower production value one would could be great, but here's a few ways it could go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dszFWI8ST4 (Features players. Probably not possible because it would involve bringing them all together before the tournament.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrSNWP683D4 (Features the players as well, but animated so you don't have to actually film them)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPdET_nZuFA (Minimal. Sponsors + tournament name. Much easier to make.)
Or it could feature the game, but I couldn't remember any good examples of that.

Again this is not possible for almost anyone but if a tournament has the ability/funds to make something like this happen I think it's something the should consider.

ranmaru · Nov 22, 2012

This is awesome dude and I would do anything I could to help. :D

Eggm · Nov 22, 2012

KirbyKaze said:
Okay now for some actual input

1) How to Play Video

Is this a "How to Use <thing>" video or more of a "How do Perform <thing>" video? I understand that you want something "covering it all" but that's not only impossible (this game is too complicated) but there is inevitably going to be a focus towards either "how to do it" versus "how to use it". Similarly, how should be structuring such a thing?

2) I think this is a great idea. Having the common rulesets available on video, how stage striking works, etc. is probably a good thing.

3) I think explaining a trick in a MU or with a character for 20-30 seconds could be an excellent thing actually and it beats the hell out of watching a button check. Showing how to SDI Fox's uair (and the various ways to do it, and how Fox can interact with it [if there's enough time leftover]), or showing how to escape Peach's ledge stand > d-smash edgeguard on characters with onstage recovery lag, or even slightly more complicated analysis (like, say, the merits of DIing away from an edgeguarder when you're hit offstage to escape soft move > strong move) are probably way more interesting than poofstall > ledgedash > dash RNS > FF > poofstall > ledgedash over and over to make sure your stick and buttons are working. I actually have a lot of things that could go here.

I'd also think that - if it were possible - you could stamp certain times during the match that were particularly interesting if they merit more discussion or analysis than was given during the time of the match (since a lot happens, so commentators often have to speak 2 seconds about an event then move on to the next one). This way you could kind of have a "match highlights" like they do in sports or if something kind of neat happened. And by stamping the time, you could go back and talk about it with the replay on hand.

The examples you mentioned in #3 are exactly what I had in mind when pitching the idea to prog.

KUSH. · Nov 22, 2012

I love editing smash vids and i have a solid editing backround(used to film and edit for a skateshop). I only know matchups indepth for falcon but i was thinking about making a matchup vid for against shiek and misc other tips for falcon. Want me to try it out and post it for feedback from yall? Srry of this doesnt make sense lol i literally
Just woke up

standardtoaster · Nov 22, 2012

BlackGold said:
I liked what VGBC was doing at FC where if a cool combo happened during the match they replayed it when the match ended.

that was my favorite part of the stream. I would love for other streams to do this

MattDotZeb · Nov 22, 2012

KirbyKaze said:
Okay now for some actual input

1) How to Play Video

Is this a "How to Use <thing>" video or more of a "How do Perform <thing>" video? I understand that you want something "covering it all" but that's not only impossible (this game is too complicated) but there is inevitably going to be a focus towards either "how to do it" versus "how to use it". Similarly, how should be structuring such a thing?

The video I have in mind encompasses both takes, beginning with how to perform.

In my mind the htp should be all encompassing. Beginning with very basics, like the in-game tut, and advancing on.

KirbyKaze · Nov 22, 2012

If that's the case then I would suggest splitting the videos into a basic performance section and then an applied section. Basic performance (how to do it) would list a lot of important basic techniques that all characters can perform. I would also strongly suggest either character specific videos be made then in addition to the general one or as an add-on if we're going for completeness. The performance section should probably incorporate a rough idea of application but I feel that if we go into a lot of detail immediately following "how to do it", then each individual technique's section will get too cluttered or lengthy.

For this reason, I suggest then creating a different video (or different section) that illustrates application under more broad categories like punishment (split into comboing, tech chasing, edgeguarding, etc), positioning (how movement affects position, the difference between "reach" and "range", a simple breakdown of the defensive or offensive merits of certain places you can be on the stage, etc), and whatever else we decide that should go here.

MattDotZeb · Nov 22, 2012

KirbyKaze said:
If that's the case then I would suggest splitting the videos into a basic performance section and then an applied section. Basic performance (how to do it) would list a lot of important basic techniques that all characters can perform. I would also strongly suggest either character specific videos be made then in addition to the general one or as an add-on if we're going for completeness. The performance section should probably incorporate a rough idea of application but I feel that if we go into a lot of detail immediately following "how to do it", then each individual technique's section will get too cluttered or lengthy.

For this reason, I suggest then creating a different video (or different section) that illustrates application under more broad categories like punishment (split into comboing, tech chasing, edgeguarding, etc), positioning (how movement affects position, the difference between "reach" and "range", a simple breakdown of the defensive or offensive merits of certain places you can be on the stage, etc), and whatever else we decide that should go here.

I'm breaking it down right now.

Where I'm at is there is a beginning video. Something that just refreshes the game. What button inputs do what, along with how to do standard techniques (WD, L-Cancel, SH, and Ground Teching, etc. Similar to the current AHTP)

Next moves into how to use specific techniques, and you can use an entire video explaining the uses of Wavedashing. This is where the bulk of the grind goes in. Everything needs to broken down and explained - not only how to do it, but how to really use it effectively. Because of this it would be a good idea for there to be a move into character specifics. For example, you should know that Samus can Missile Cancel, or that Falco can SHL. You also need to know the angle Sheik's Needles travel, and how to maneuver or attack through Doc's Pills. Staying at an all-encompassing level, it only makes sense to go into characters further. And, besides, complete character video guides are not at all unheard of elsewhere.

After that comes interlacing techniques. After you've gone over playing the game, performing techniques, you move into the realm of combining movement with your techniques, and stringing them together. Such as L-Canceling into a Platform Shield Drop into a Waveland or Aerial A into L-Cancel Wavedash.

And, finally, you introduce Options. What I have in mind for this part is, partly, what I did already in this video. There will, however, need to be videos done on the mental portion of this game. If you can't understand the game, you'll never be good at it.

This is something that almost has to be released through multiple videos.

Fuzzyness · Nov 22, 2012

I was planning to make tutorials for the most part aside "Advanced how to play" since I know someone else would be making that, I wanted to focus on other fundamentals once you have learnt those techniques how to apply them, mindsets and stuff

In my first video I was gonna say "this is the smash terminology for each move (wavedash, short hop, shuffle, etc) if you want to learn precise how to do these techniques I recommend watching the advanced how to play video, as these tutorials will focus on polishing those techniques and other factors in competitive play"

Also was going to cover matchups / problems that people want help with, both sides of the matchup

Ryobeat · Nov 22, 2012

Fuzzyness, what is your youtube channel? I personally would like to see:

-Player Highlight videos for new upcoming players
-REALLY REALLY REALLY hyped crew battles. I'm gonna go into detail later, but these are just off the top of my head thoughts.

Fuzzyness · Nov 22, 2012

well nothings been made yet but I use twitch and youtube

twitch - fuzzyness
youtube - supersmashbrosuk / fuzzyness

I could attempt to make my first episode by two weeks sunday I start a full time 38 hours job on saturday so im not sure how thing are gonna end up in terms of spare time but making a goal would be a good start for me. (and im supposed to go to hf-lan in Paris december 1st - 2nd)

I dont think it'll be too hard to demonstrate using dolphin on my stream + if its well planned beforehand

apparently king funk + shloka are doing the advanced how to play video, so really no reason for me to cover those apart from briefly explaining what they are

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