Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

Greenstreet · Oct 9, 2008

i's canz do dat.

Dark Sonic · Oct 9, 2008

Hey guys, what we should do is make individual threads for each matchup, and just have a matchup thread index to link to them (lol, copy paste the Marth boards).

But seriously, that is pretty much the best possible format for discussing matchups, since it lets people go back and discuss matchups that they don't agree with. Since this thread has only done like, 6 matchups, we could just start over.

Tenki · Oct 9, 2008

We tried that once.

There are threads floating around, and one of them just came up recently (the Zelda one)

It might be a good idea to restart/continue that, but with this thread's system of making other boards aware of it, since, I think before, we had little input from the other sides.

ROOOOY! · Oct 9, 2008

Considering I've got first post on the first page, shall I just copy paste like what posts a certain match-up is between and generally do what Greenstreet was doing? Except of course I won't have the ability to change the title which is a pain in the ***.

Thankyou Greenstreet for trying to make a useful thread though, you did a good job.

TRAITOR, YOU MAIN LUIGI NOW!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QwlMpCNaOrQ

Nah, I'm kidding. Good luck man, and thanks again.

Umby · Oct 9, 2008

Dark Sonic said:
Hey guys, what we should do is make individual threads for each matchup, and just have a matchup thread index to link to them (lol, copy paste the Marth boards).

But seriously, that is pretty much the best possible format for discussing matchups, since it lets people go back and discuss matchups that they don't agree with. Since this thread has only done like, 6 matchups, we could just start over.

Or we can have one thread with full write up sections for each character, with links to the original discussion thread in each section.

ROOOOY! · Oct 9, 2008

I just updated my first post (#3) concerning where match-up discussions have started in this thread and that.
I personally think there's been too much good discussion in this thread to just let it be...forgotten.

The next person who makes it, can you please make sure that you don't have any other massive commitments coming up which'll make it so you can't update the thread?
Hell, even I'll do it if no one else does and we decide to pick up where this one left off in another thread.

ROOOOY! · Oct 11, 2008

GET DISCUSSING FOX NOW!
Myself, I can't see this being any worse than 50:50. Edgeguarding is too easy. It's like edgeguarding Falco, except without the fear of his Illusion spiking you. Bair him, spring him from above, whatever.
A lot of Fox's combos don't work, because Sonic can just spring out of them.
What say you people?

Tip : Let's not ask Fox boards for help. 70:30/80:20 advantage Fox, LMAO.

da K.I.D. · Oct 11, 2008

as someone who just started playing fox at tourny level, i agree with rooooy, offstage fox is taking his life into his own hands lol
and no up tilt combos equals a sad sad fox

Camalange · Oct 11, 2008

ROOOOY! said:
GET DISCUSSING FOX NOW!
Myself, I can't see this being any worse than 50:50. Edgeguarding is too easy. It's like edgeguarding Falco, except without the fear of his Illusion spiking you. Bair him, spring him from above, whatever.
A lot of Fox's combos don't work, because Sonic can just spring out of them.
What say you people?

Tip : Let's not ask Fox boards for help. 70:30/80:20 advantage Fox, LMAO.

~~I know it's freaking hilarious. That whole thread is filled with lulz.~~ I agree with everything you said too about Fox, so I'll just add some extra input.

I find that hyphen smashing makes for a good approach. It cuts off his shorthopped aerial approaches. Laser camping is no big deal at all, seeing as how you should take hardly any damage because of how fast Sonic is, and all the lasers are meant to do are to make you approach. Fox fails at approaches and Sonic has at least like 10 different approaches. I find this match to be at least even.

aeghrur · Oct 11, 2008

His laser sucks imo. The range doesn't even cover FD, it has no hit-stun, and it doesn't do much damage. His smashes have good knockback though, so watch it. Fox's D-air doesn't spike right? Sucks for him, lol. Oh, but his shine, hmmm, Fox has a good shine.

ROOOOY! · Oct 11, 2008

His lazer is good for racking up damage on slow characters or big characters or characters that can't maneuver around it.
Sonic is neither of those three.
Sonic > Lazer.

Camalange · Oct 11, 2008

aeghrur said:
Fox's D-air doesn't spike right? Sucks for him, lol.

It doesn't spike, but if he shortshop a dair, it autocancels and he can go into another move. He can comboz 4 realz. I usually get a shorthopped dair to jab combo, or a usmash. But that's why I threw out the hyphen smash because I find it eats his shorthop approaches.

Anyone agree?

ShadowLink84 · Oct 11, 2008

his Dair doesn't spike persay but it does push you downwards.
its not a meteor but it does indeed knock you down (hence why you can go into a shine since Fox falls as quickly)

Camalange · Oct 11, 2008

ShadowLink84 said:
his Dair doesn't spike persay but it does push you downwards.
its not a meteor but it does indeed knock you down (hence why you can go into a shine since Fox falls as quickly)

Exactly, that's what allows him to comboz 4 realz. It would be nice if Sonic had a juggle move to use against Fox because of his proneness to juggling due to his extreme "heaviness".

ROOOOY! · Oct 11, 2008

......uair for juggling?

Camalange · Oct 11, 2008

ROOOOY! said:
......uair for juggling?

Oh well, yea, but I was thinking more of a Luigi U-tilt style kind of juggling.

Tenki · Oct 12, 2008

edit: Please refrain from mocking other players/boards.
I don't want this to devolve into the POS that was the Lucario-Sonic "discussion" - and if you do that after this post, I'm reporting you.

aeghrur said:
His laser sucks imo. The range doesn't even cover FD, it has no hit-stun, and it doesn't do much damage. His smashes have good knockback though, so watch it. Fox's D-air doesn't spike right? Sucks for him, lol. Oh, but his shine, hmmm, Fox has a good shine.

Laser is a bait / move refresher. Damaging is probably the least of its uses.

Fox's U-smash is a butt.

D-air can be really dangerous.

What's really cool is that if you're awesome, you can consistently B-air Fox out of his illusion. Had some really flashy matches the other day against some Fox player where he'd try to illusion back on stage and I'd hit him with B-air, then B-air (reverse launch) - then he tried one more time from the opposite side of the level and got F-smashed for the kill.

Check out this post, from the Fox boards.

Ironically, alot of it applies to Sonic, except for having a move refresher (2 grabs+pummels at high %?) and high knockback moves (eh, we just have to do more damage before we kill.)

A6M Zero said:
For those of you not following the debate in "A6M Zero and FenrirVII's Fox Conversation", Fenrir posted a lengthy and absolutely perfect post to describe the proper Fox play and how this character is going to strive in the metagame.

The two of us will be continuing to update this into a more refined essay on Fox, all contributions are accepted and can be PM'd to either myself or Fenrir VII.

~~~

What we mainly run into here is that Fox lacks a general "here's what you do" strategy that is universal. I'm certainly not saying he does not have that kind of option... I'm just saying that his overall approach to a match is almost completely based on the opponent character.

This is also what separates him from a large part of the higher tier characters... and, in my personal opinion, why he is so hard to play in tournaments... and why he is not higher on the tier list. Basically, with a few changes, MK, Snake, and most of the other top characters play basically the same with just a few changes against every character in the game... I realize this is an overgeneralization, but bear with me..

The thing is, Fox is a character who is able to bait out attacks quite well and capitalize on them.

EL mentioned that Fox's dair approach is risky... yes it is. That's why a dair heavy Fox, in most cases, is mediocre. We mention it... and use it for that matter, as a VERY good combo lead in after a successful bait. That's a bit beside the point.

Fox, unlike higher tier characters, has to greatly vary his overall strategy in every match.
For example... Against MK, Fox goes very Dair happy...beating out both tornado and upB... is not very worried about grabs with DI away... and always illusions back onto the stage from varying heights and lengths. He NEVER edgeguards MK... and typically looks for an usmash kill. He has to watch for MK's shield game with dsmash, though.

Against Falco, Fox has to be very careful about grabs... he keeps moving. NEVER lands in front of shield with a dair... mainly tries for a grab. Edge guards Falco with nair and dair to shine spikes.. .and usually can Firefox back onto the ledge...or illusion of course.. fairly easily. He just kills falco off the stage...and usmash only if the edgeguarding doesn't happen.

And yeah, every character can say something like that...but these matches make fox play COMPLETELY differently... so to give out a "this makes Fox good" tactic is very difficult.

That's why you'll hear me (Fenrir) talk about dash shield so much... that's basically the one tactic that I have found to be mostly universally good. It creates openings by applying pressure...and since Fox has a good out of shield game...it's really sets him up. Another good tactic is pivot-wave-grab, which Fox's slides very far, mostly unpunishable.

Now, continuing Fox's combos on character really isn't high risk...after it's started. There are a variety of mixups that work fine. We're certainly not talking about dair -> utilt x3.
After any utilt... whether after dair, or even a run behind shield utilt...or roll...whatever ...you get at least a jab or grab...if you don't want another utilt... after a couple, you get nair, which also leads to grabs and such... it's really hard to list all of them, because they're very dynamic.. Just, really, it's not hard to put 50% on most characters...even with DI. With proper pressure after a combo and not trying to overextend yourself, another 20% isn't very difficult either.

Fox was in Melee...and still is... very good at being relentless in very tight spaces... once he starts controlling the combo game...if played correctly, it's VERY hard to break out of it.

After about 70%, which, with the comboing mixed with other random grabs and lasers isn't very hard to accomplish that kind of %, dsmash is a legitimate threat out of shield or dair... as Fox usually has a pretty good edgeguarding game (not usually involving shine spike)
And around 90%, dsmash and usmash both will kill the light half of the cast... and can both combo out of dair...so one mistake... or one guessed move, and you die...and I'm completely disregarding bair's killing potential

The main point here, is that Fox is typically a reaction character. And this sounds worse than it is. He is one of the best at punishing moves or predictable gameplay. You ask for safe approaches, I can give just a few of them... so basically, yeah, he lacks a bit... but his whole game is centered around forcing something he can beat and beating it very harshly, whether this entails a roll, spot dodge, SH fair, or shuttle loop... if Fox guesses it, you have a serious problem.

Add to that his blaster, which is almost an auto-refill for his smash attacks and you have a powerful threat.

Against completely flawless and unpredictable play, Fox would have trouble... but that's never been seen...even in all the years of Melee, the game was about guessing your opponent out.

It's understandable the wanting Fox to have viable pokes and approaches, but be sure that you do not only measure him on that. In any form of reasonable play, both players will make mistakes, and Fox will usually have the better end of punishing them. He has a lot of options for creating these openings...and several decent approaches of his own...like SH Nair landing behind a shield... which place him higher than he is now.

...But this limitation of mostly only punishing, may be the thing that will keep Fox out of top tier...You can't be so sure about high tier, though - Fox has the ability to make everything count.

~~~

"Ghengis Kahn should have never won his battles."

I yellow'd things that are relevant to this matchup, and bolded things that are... relevant to Sonic.

I'm somewhat annoyed by how this is taken in a respectful manner, but people just discard it when it comes to Sonic.

------
Okay, I'm making a linking thread in the Fox boards. Someone get Greenstreet to update the title please.

aeghrur · Oct 12, 2008

Right, Hehe, I sure was a noob there. I just remembered his Laser=great move refresher and stuff. :O

Boxob · Oct 12, 2008

Fox is pretty easy to fight. I don't think I've ever lost to a fox.

MarKO X · Oct 12, 2008

"A Fox under the stage is a dead Fox."

That's the truth. ABGF (Always Be Gimping Focs)

ROOOOY! · Oct 12, 2008

Would I be right in thinking that ftilt completely outranges Fox's ground arsenal except maybe fsmash?

§witch · Oct 12, 2008

Who remembers the thread of this match-up in the fox boards? Lmao, that was great. But yeah, sonic's main this is, get fox off the stage. Other wise he'll have a hard time killing. As I get better with fox, I find myself not relying on utilt at all, so that's not a worry for higher level fox mains.
EDIT: Fox's dtilt has good range on it, but you may very well be correct.

ROOOOY! · Oct 12, 2008

Not that hard to kill.
Fsmash will kill Fox from nearish the edge of Final Destination around 100%, with full DI.

M@v · Oct 12, 2008

Well you guys are right about one thing. You dont really have to worry about fox camping much, since sonic is so fast. Sonic still has the weakness of having a hard time killing however. Sonic got 2 good options: Fsmash, which is mediocre in terms of startup, range, and ending lag, and bair, which you can see from a mile away. You could try uairing if they are above you too, but fox above you is generally a very bad thing, since dair-utilt owns. Also, it seems there are a lot of misconceptions on both sides of the discussion, probably because not too many good sonics have played good foxes, and vice versa. Fox has a priority advantage, with the exception of sonic's dsmash. Sonic Dsmash annoys the **** out of me. You can't spotdodge it, and you can't shieldgrab it. Fox has a better off stage game then sonic too, and can kill him early with upsmash. Im putting this at 60-40 or 65-35 fox.

Camalange · Oct 12, 2008

Fsmash actually has good range, believe it or not...I'll admit, it does have pretty bad start up, but the ending lag isn't too big of a deal either.

I don't find killing to be a big problem for Sonic in this matchup. Fox is way to easy for Sonic to gimp. Predicting illusion landspots is a piece of cake, and like mentioned before, A Fox under the stage is a dead one.

Sonic's dsmash doesn't really have great priority, but it is very hard to spotdodge...it CAN be shieldgrabbed.

M@v, since you're a Fox main I'd like to ask you this. Are most approaches based off of shorthops? Because I find that Sonic's hyphen smash can eat away shorthop approaches and that Sonic has a multitude of ways to approach, giving Fox a harder time to handle it.

ROOOOY! · Oct 12, 2008

I hate doing multiquotes and stuff but I will anyway. I'll start by saying thanks for the contribution.

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:
Sonic still has the weakness of having a hard time killing however. Sonic got 2 good options: Fsmash, which is mediocre in terms of startup, range, and ending lag

16 frames for the hitbox to come out, which I'll admit isn't great. Range wise, stutter stepped it outranges Marth's forward smash, and most other stutter stepped fsmashes I think. I'm not sure about the ending lag, but Sonic's are really only going to use it when they're sure they'll hit with it, especially against Fox because we're aware of his punishment game.

and bair, which you can see from a mile away.

That's not the move, or match-up specific. That's more the opponent being predictable, that doesn't matter in match-up discussions.

You could try uairing if they are above you too, but fox above you is generally a very bad thing, since dair-utilt owns.

True, but the second hit of uair beats out Fox's dair. However, it is pretty hard to space due to his fast falling :\

Fox has a better off stage game then sonic too, and can kill him early with upsmash. Im putting this at 60-40 or 65-35 fox.

I'd strongly disagree with the better offstage game. In this particular match-up, Sonic may not be as damaging as Fox offstage, but is so much safer due to his many ways to recover, and Fox is fairly unsafe off the edge due to having a mediocre recovery. Upsmash is evil though, agreed. Don't think it's TOO early though, because Sonic is one of the upper-middle weights.
I honestly don't think it's 60:40 or 65:35. I think even 45:55 against Sonic is harsh.

§witch · Oct 12, 2008

Camalange said:
Fsmash actually has good range, believe it or not...I'll admit, it does have pretty bad start up, but the ending lag isn't too big of a deal either.

It's enough to be punishable.

I don't find killing to be a big problem for Sonic in this matchup. Fox is way to easy for Sonic to gimp. Predicting illusion landspots is a piece of cake, and like mentioned before, A Fox under the stage is a dead one.

As I said, it's all about getting fox off the edge, otherwise it'll be hard to kill him. And no smart fox will illusion onto the stage consistently.

Sonic's dsmash doesn't really have great priority, but it is very hard to spotdodge...it CAN be shieldgrabbed.

Albeit, very hard to sheildgrab.

M@v, since you're a Fox main I'd like to ask you this. Are most approaches based off of shorthops? Because I find that Sonic's hyphen smash can eat away shorthop approaches and that Sonic has a multitude of ways to approach, giving Fox a harder time to handle it.

I know fox's nair will beat sonic usmash, and maybe on dair. But fox has very few good approaches, the majority of them are SH'ed.

Chis · Oct 12, 2008

§witch said:
I know fox's nair will beat sonic usmash, and maybe on dair.

Up smash has invincible frames, nothing can beat it.

ROOOOY! · Oct 12, 2008

Not for the whole duration.
Only when he's at the apex of the 'jump'.
The rest of the time it just has high priority.

M@v · Oct 12, 2008

Camalange said:
M@v, since you're a Fox main I'd like to ask you this. Are most approaches based off of shorthops? Because I find that Sonic's hyphen smash can eat away shorthop approaches and that Sonic has a multitude of ways to approach, giving Fox a harder time to handle it.

The primary ways you will see a good fox approach you:

1. He wont. If he can he will camp to make you come to him. In this kind of situation he waits for you to make a mistake.

2. Short hopped dairs. Decent move, so-so priority, but it leads into many combos

3. Fast fall nair. High priority and can autocancel into combos, but its harder to control than dair.

4. vertical dair or nair.. In this situation, a fox uses a combination of fast falling and shine stalling(an AT where fox can almost hover with his shine) to throw off your timing, and then attacks straight down with nair or dair.

5. fair. It can combo into utilt if timed right. High priority, multi hit move. its amazing out of the dthrow.

6. dash attack and illusion. You will rarely see these. A good fox might use them as approaches to mix it up once in a blue moon. If the fox you play relys on these as approaches, then he needs some serious help.

Tenki · Oct 12, 2008

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:
Well you guys are right about one thing. You dont really have to worry about fox camping much, since sonic is so fast. Sonic still has the weakness of having a hard time killing however. Sonic got 2 good options: Fsmash, which is mediocre in terms of startup, range, and ending lag, and bair, which you can see from a mile away. You could try uairing if they are above you too, but fox above you is generally a very bad thing, since dair-utilt owns. Also, it seems there are a lot of misconceptions on both sides of the discussion, probably because not too many good sonics have played good foxes, and vice versa. Fox has a priority advantage, with the exception of sonic's dsmash. Sonic Dsmash annoys the **** out of me. You can't spotdodge it, and you can't shieldgrab it. Fox has a better off stage game then sonic too, and can kill him early with upsmash. Im putting this at 60-40 or 65-35 fox.

I'll address the ones in orange:
1- F-smash is slightly disjointed, and it kinda extends past his graphics. D-smash is the second strongest kill move that Sonic has. It's about "10%" weaker than F-smash, and it's faster. It's way underused as a kill move.
2- Sonic's U-air is horizontally disjointed with the first part of it, and vertically disjointed above.

[?] How does Fox have a better off-stage game than Sonic (in this specific matchup), when, without his double jump, Fox is susceptible to gimps? Sonic can interrupt side-B with most of his aerials, and if Fox gets pummel-released on the edge, something bad will happen to him, almost guaranteed. If you get airgrabbed/pummel-released out of your doublejump, all you can do is up-B, and that'll set you up for a gimp or stage spike.

If Fox is above Sonic, I guess you can argue something for Fox with shine and it stopping his falling momentum and all, but that can be gotten around with spring's invincibility frames and/or HA. But what if Sonic is above Fox? Sweetspot D-air to knock you horizontally away from the stage, F-air to drag you downwards, N-air/B-air for the gimp/kill, and U-air for a falling stagespike when near the stage.

ROOOOY! said:
That's not the move, or match-up specific. That's more the opponent being predictable, that doesn't matter in match-up discussions.

o shi-

cool.

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:
The primary ways you will see a good fox approach you:

1. He wont. If he can he will camp to make you come to him. In this kind of situation he waits for you to make a mistake.

2. Short hopped dairs. Decent move, so-so priority, but it leads into many combos

5. fair. It can combo into utilt if timed right. High priority, multi hit move. its amazing out of the dthrow.

1. lol this one is more of a standoff between players. It's actually one that I personally like to take advantage of with my playstyle, since IMO, it's worse to be reactive to Sonic (especially with shield/dodge based reactions) than it is to just be consistently be attacking.

2. Yeah, 'weaving'/'wop' aerials can be annoying, especially when they don't have the intent of using it to approach you. I fought a Fox online with the name samboner and he used d-airs often as starters.

5. This is more a general question, but other than N-air, do any of his other moves autocancel/have minimal landing lag if not finished?

M@v · Oct 12, 2008

Tenki said:
I'll address the ones in orange:
1- F-smash is slightly disjointed, and it kinda extends past his graphics. D-smash is the second strongest kill move that Sonic has. It's about "10%" weaker than F-smash, and it's faster. It's way underused as a kill move.
2- Sonic's U-air is horizontally disjointed with the first part of it, and vertically disjointed above.

[?] How does Fox have a better off-stage game than Sonic (in this specific matchup), when, without his double jump, Fox is susceptible to gimps? Sonic can interrupt side-B with most of his aerials, and if Fox gets pummel-released on the edge, something bad will happen to him, almost guaranteed. If you get airgrabbed/pummel-released out of your doublejump, all you can do is up-B, and that'll set you up for a gimp or stage spike.

If Fox is above Sonic, I guess you can argue something for Fox with shine and it stopping his falling momentum and all, but that can be gotten around with spring's invincibility frames and/or HA. But what if Sonic is above Fox? Sweetspot D-air to knock you horizontally away from the stage, F-air to drag you downwards, N-air/B-air for the gimp/kill, and U-air for a falling stagespike when near the stage.

o shi-

cool.

1. lol this one is more of a standoff between players. It's actually one that I personally like to take advantage of with my playstyle, since IMO, it's worse to be reactive to Sonic (especially with shield/dodge based reactions) than it is to just be consistently be attacking.

2. Yeah, 'weaving'/'wop' aerials can be annoying, especially when they don't have the intent of using it to approach you. I fought a Fox online with the name samboner and he used d-airs often as starters.

5. This is more a general question, but other than N-air, do any of his other moves autocancel/have minimal landing lag if not finished?

Nair and dair do(thats the reason they are his best combo starters). Fair doesn't autocancel, but its end lag isnt bad if it ends early. I guess you could say its almost like a partial autocancel. It all depends on the situation. Basically, fox shouldn't rely on fair to start combos for him;its too risky.

Also, about my approach post, I even said earlier sonic's speed pretty much negates #1, so you don't really have to worry about fox camping you. Expect short hopped nairs and dairs most of the time. You will probably see lots of shieldgrabbing dthrows to fairs if your too aggresive as well.

P.S Tenki I have been wanting to tell you that your avatar is win.

ROOOOY! · Oct 12, 2008

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:
P.S Tenki I have been wanting to tell you that your avatar is win.

Everyone says that. Agreed xD

I still think this is neutral. Fox can kill at a slightly lower percent than Sonic can kill him, Fox has the better kill moves but Sonic is heavier + has the better recovery. To counter that, Sonic can gimp Fox offstage pretty well with a well placed spring, bair, or whatever. Offstage game, IMO, is all Sonic.

Fox creates a problem for Sonic in his short hopped aerials, but if Sonic can confine Fox to the ground, he pretty much completely outranges him with ftilt.

This is a really weird match-up to analyse. Both characters are the punishment type, and when I've played this match-up the game has been really cagey and defensive. This game is down to a lot of prediction and reading skills.

Edit : Oh yeah. I have the edited match-up chart and character discussion primer on post #3 of this thread.

Tenki · Oct 12, 2008

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:
Nair and dair do(thats the reason they are his best combo starters). Fair doesn't autocancel, but its end lag isnt bad if it ends early. I guess you could say its almost like a partial autocancel. It all depends on the situation. Basically, fox shouldn't rely on fair to start combos for him;its too risky.

Also, about my approach post, I even said earlier sonic's speed pretty much negates #1, so you don't really have to worry about fox camping you. Expect short hopped nairs and dairs most of the time. You will probably see lots of shieldgrabbing dthrows to fairs if your too aggresive as well.

P.S Tenki I have been wanting to tell you that your avatar is win.

Thanks for the information on aerials+ava comments. I actually cleaned up the avatar a bit because there was this giant bald spot in the original.

What I meant about my comment on Sonic and approaching w/ #1 is that I sometimes camp in people's faces. Defensive reactions are horribly punishable.

-Mars- · Oct 12, 2008

I really don't know about Sonic's out of shield game, but usmash and dsmash out of shield for Fox is very good. If you don't space well you will eat an usmash.

I agree that Sonic has the advantage off the stage, Fox players won't illusion on to the stage however. Fox isn't helpless of off the edge though, shine stalling and the fair recovery enable him to mix it up a bit.

*shrugs* I've only played one good Sonic, so I really don't have enough knowledge to be commenting on the specific matchup. I think Sonic is terribly underrated and can't wait to see what you guys are going to do with him though

Tenki · Oct 12, 2008

marsulas said:
I really don't know about Sonic's out of shield game, but usmash and dsmash out of shield for Fox is very good. If you don't space well you will eat an usmash.

Sonic's best OoS options are...

- hold shield
- jump
- spotdodge

seriously.

Oh, and sometimes, jab/ftilt/dtilt.

For the most part, Sonic's approaches aren't very hittable OoS, except for maybe "WOP" F-air, and B-airs dropped in front of the opponent.

Dark Sonic · Oct 12, 2008

In other words, by the time you upsmash out of shield...Sonic isn't there anymore. He's either rolled past you, jumped/airdodged past you, or shield canceled right in front of you to bait a reaction.

Tenki · Oct 12, 2008

no not really.

lol

I'm just stating Sonic's 'best' OOS options.

spring is questionable, depending on the user and opponent placement.

they're not very special D;

Dark Sonic · Oct 12, 2008

Tenki said:
For the most part, Sonic's approaches aren't very hittable OoS, except for maybe "WOP" F-air, and B-airs dropped in front of the opponent.

I was talking about that, elaborating on why Fox's OoS options might not work on Sonic.

And yeah, Sonic' OoS game isn't that good.

Terios the Hedgehog · Oct 12, 2008

I did a shorthop Dair out of shield and killed a Falco. It was hawt.

Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

What is Sonic's worst match up?

Marth

Wario

Game & Watch

Lucario

Olimar

Peach

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Hero

ㅤ

Smash Champion

Smash Master

ㅤ

Smash Hero

ㅤ

Smash Master

ㅤ

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Subarashii!

ㅤ

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Finally a legend

Smash Master

Subarashii!

Smash Hero

Subarashii!

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

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