Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[Asdioh]

so the Brock Obama dude posted a thread in the Kirby boards, and I came to see if I could help out...and I saw you guys totally disrespect T!mmy, one of the best Kirbys out there. Not a good plan.

You're not going to find many people from other boards that can help you, because most people haven't played Sonic mains that are any good. So don't jump on an opportunity to flame them when they try to help, that's all.

Now, what can I say about Sonic? Of course, I haven't played many. On wifi, his speed is annoying as hell to deal with, but his lack of ko power evens it out. Offline, his speed is much easier to counter, and though I can't say the specifics, I'd say the match is definitely in Kirby's favor. I've played very few offline matches against Sonic, and Anther is one of those. I 2-stocked him, but that was September 13th, and I don't think he had played for that long. He might be better now.

Spoiler

And his Pikachu destroyed me, and everyone else at the tournament

So yeah...since I know little about Sonic, what can I say about Kirby? Copying your power is pretty much pointless, starshot is better, like T!mmy said. Down B (Stone) is a good edgeguard, depending on Sonic's position. Final Cutter won't be so useful on-stage, since Sonic's speed allows him to run up, powershield the wave, and punish Kirby's horrible ending lag. Hammer? Well, it's situational, but it has decent range, and since sonic has no disjointed hitboxes (that I know of) a well-spaced hammer can be great.

If fthrow->uair is escapable via Spring, Kirby might try dthrow->utilt. I don't remember how well this works on Sonic, but I can imagine the uptilt will cancel the falling spring, resulting in Kirby not taking damage, at least.

Kirby will beat you in the air, I think. Just imagine a Kirby that spends most of the game spacing shorthopped bairs, can any of you tell me how Sonic would go about countering that?

In other news, I just realized that I might try practicing with Sonic a bit, since I've only played him a couple times since Brawl came out, and it could be fun. If Anther can do it, so can I :O plus the Sega Genesis games were quite good

 

[dentrag2]

Reply to the aerial question.

so the Brock Obama dude posted a thread in the Kirby boards, and I came to see if I could help out...and I saw you guys totally disrespect T!mmy, one of the best Kirbys out there. Not a good plan.

You're not going to find many people from other boards that can help you, because most people haven't played Sonic mains that are any good. So don't jump on an opportunity to flame them when they try to help, that's all.

Now, what can I say about Sonic? Of course, I haven't played many. On wifi, his speed is annoying as hell to deal with, but his lack of ko power evens it out. Offline, his speed is much easier to counter, and though I can't say the specifics, I'd say the match is definitely in Kirby's favor. I've played very few offline matches against Sonic, and Anther is one of those. I 2-stocked him, but that was September 13th, and I don't think he had played for that long. He might be better now.

Spoiler

And his Pikachu destroyed me, and everyone else at the tournament

So yeah...since I know little about Sonic, what can I say about Kirby? Copying your power is pretty much pointless, starshot is better, like T!mmy said. Down B (Stone) is a good edgeguard, depending on Sonic's position. Final Cutter won't be so useful on-stage, since Sonic's speed allows him to run up, powershield the wave, and punish Kirby's horrible ending lag. Hammer? Well, it's situational, but it has decent range, and since sonic has no disjointed hitboxes (that I know of) a well-spaced hammer can be great.

If fthrow->uair is escapable via Spring, Kirby might try dthrow->utilt. I don't remember how well this works on Sonic, but I can imagine the uptilt will cancel the falling spring, resulting in Kirby not taking damage, at least.

Kirby will beat you in the air, I think. Just imagine a Kirby that spends most of the game spacing shorthopped bairs, can any of you tell me how Sonic would go about countering that?

In other news, I just realized that I might try practicing with Sonic a bit, since I've only played him a couple times since Brawl came out, and it could be fun. If Anther can do it, so can I :O plus the Sega Genesis games were quite good

maining sonic, i can tell you that sonic would probably win (So far as my knowledge goes) an aerial duel with kirby, given that his aerials have impressive range for the graphical effect. Comboing side air and down air is easy for me, i don't know if it is for anyone else.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Quit arguing with him.

Y'see, I have an issue with that. I'm not arguing at all. It's a forum, so we discuss things. He simply brought things to the table so to speak, and in a non-argumentative form I raised a few issues.

Now if I'm not going to get my **** ripped off by you for it, I'd like to answer a question brought up by Asdioh, I'm sorry if in any form this is pseudo-argumentative.

Kirby will beat you in the air, I think. Just imagine a Kirby that spends most of the game spacing shorthopped bairs, can any of you tell me how Sonic would go about countering that?

I don't know how Sonic's utilt fares against it. It's slightly disjoint and has good priority in general. If it didn't work (I'm not sure if it does to be honest) there's not really any other choice but to Pshield.

In other news, I just realized that I might try practicing with Sonic a bit, since I've only played him a couple times since Brawl came out, and it could be fun. If Anther can do it, so can I :O plus the Sega Genesis games were quite good

WRONG. They were very good =p

 

[Tenki]

maining sonic, i can tell you that sonic would probably win (So far as my knowledge goes) an aerial duel with kirby, given that his aerials have impressive range for the graphical effect. Comboing side air and down air is easy for me, i don't know if it is for anyone else.

NO, his aerials don't have impressive range. Except for U-air (above), d-air (below/front, to an extent), and B-air.

timmylove

So yeah...since I know little about Sonic, what can I say about Kirby? Copying your power is pretty much pointless, starshot is better, like T!mmy said. Down B (Stone) is a good edgeguard, depending on Sonic's position. Final Cutter won't be so useful on-stage, since Sonic's speed allows him to run up, powershield the wave, and punish Kirby's horrible ending lag. Hammer? Well, it's situational, but it has decent range, and since sonic has no disjointed hitboxes (that I know of) a well-spaced hammer can be great.

If fthrow->uair is escapable via Spring, Kirby might try dthrow->utilt. I don't remember how well this works on Sonic, but I can imagine the uptilt will cancel the falling spring, resulting in Kirby not taking damage, at least.

Kirby will beat you in the air, I think. Just imagine a Kirby that spends most of the game spacing shorthopped bairs, can any of you tell me how Sonic would go about countering that?

off topic: I tried going to the Lucario boards to confirm/deconfirm something and got similar treatment, more because I had a Sonic main icon and they just had a bad taste in their mouth from the Lucario vs Sonic thread. They didn't know that I did most of the move testing for Sonic. Granted, I didn't make silly/incorrect assumptions on Lucario's behavior but it's not like everyone knows who people from other boards are.

Regardless, if someone says something wrong, it should be corrected or disregarded, yes?
----------
- It should be well-established by now that Kirby won't copy Sonic's powers, so let's take the stuff that he mentions:
Starshot: It's possible to break out of this almost ASAP by doing an attack, or hitting jump. On an interesting note, from fighting a certain Dedede player, it might not always be to your advantage to break out of it ASAP.

-Hammer: It's notable that aerial hammer has two swings. I've been caught by that when I was less familiar with this matchup. I'm not sure what extent it hits above or below it though.

-Low% chaingrabs: I've fought a few Kirby mains online as well, and it doesn't seem like the low% chaingrabs are escapable by any moves. I'm not sure if it's possible to SDI the U-air/D-tilt to an extent that makes a difference though.

-(wop) B-air: Susceptible to attacks from above (?), or just landcamping, probably. I can't test right now, but I'm interested to see how Sonic's B-air/D-air/U-air goes up against it. More info on this would be nice.

 

[aeghrur]

so the Brock Obama dude posted a thread in the Kirby boards, and I came to see if I could help out...and I saw you guys totally disrespect T!mmy, one of the best Kirbys out there. Not a good plan.

You're not going to find many people from other boards that can help you, because most people haven't played Sonic mains that are any good. So don't jump on an opportunity to flame them when they try to help, that's all.

Now, what can I say about Sonic? Of course, I haven't played many. On wifi, his speed is annoying as hell to deal with, but his lack of ko power evens it out. Offline, his speed is much easier to counter, and though I can't say the specifics, I'd say the match is definitely in Kirby's favor. I've played very few offline matches against Sonic, and Anther is one of those. I 2-stocked him, but that was September 13th, and I don't think he had played for that long. He might be better now.

Spoiler

And his Pikachu destroyed me, and everyone else at the tournament

So yeah...since I know little about Sonic, what can I say about Kirby? Copying your power is pretty much pointless, starshot is better, like T!mmy said. Down B (Stone) is a good edgeguard, depending on Sonic's position. Final Cutter won't be so useful on-stage, since Sonic's speed allows him to run up, powershield the wave, and punish Kirby's horrible ending lag. Hammer? Well, it's situational, but it has decent range, and since sonic has no disjointed hitboxes (that I know of) a well-spaced hammer can be great.

If fthrow->uair is escapable via Spring, Kirby might try dthrow->utilt. I don't remember how well this works on Sonic, but I can imagine the uptilt will cancel the falling spring, resulting in Kirby not taking damage, at least.

Kirby will beat you in the air, I think. Just imagine a Kirby that spends most of the game spacing shorthopped bairs, can any of you tell me how Sonic would go about countering that?

In other news, I just realized that I might try practicing with Sonic a bit, since I've only played him a couple times since Brawl came out, and it could be fun. If Anther can do it, so can I :O plus the Sega Genesis games were quite good

Ah, sorry for that. I guess it's just ROOOOOY! doesn't like people generalizing about sonic with the lulzpriorityluzrangelulzkillmoves stuff. =(
Well, I definitely agree with that sonic will beat us in the air. I mean, small kirby+good aerials is bad for sonic.

Also, I think we can landing camp... if there's lag after that...
We can TRY to abuse invince frames from side-B or Up-smash...Try to Shield-grab?... maybe up-tilt?

 

[Tenki]

no u

whoop, sorry, just noticed that this was a kirby thread. be right on it.

As far as i can tell,
Pro's
1: Sonic is much faster than kirby, and (If anyone else plays like me) will be in the air a lot. From what i've seen in brawls, kirby lacks good aerials other than his Neutral aerial. You will probably win a battle in the air with kirby.
(1B, as some might not count this one, Sonic's final smash is almost sure to kill kirby every time you get it.)
2: Sonic's smashes have a lot more power than kirby.
3: Sonic is quick enough to get out of range before a good smash is pulled off.
Cons:
1: Kirby can recover from much farther than sonic, and is harder to KO.
2: If kirby get's sonic's homing attack, your aerial combo's can be disrupted (on occasion)
3: Kirby's dash attack is very annoying when you try to start a combo.

In my limited experience, (I've never won a tournament, probably for a lack of them.)
this matchup is much better for sonic than kirby.
Please dont flame me, and constructive rather than destructive critisism please.

Pro1: Actually, Kirby's B-air (back aerial) is really good for controlling spacing, or beating you out of your moves. I have less exp with his F-air, but his D-air (down aerial) can set up for kill moves, alot like Fox. In general against a good Kirby, if you get caught with D-air, you don't want to roll or spotdodge right away; it might land you in a F-smash.
And yes, 1b doesn't count.
Pro2: way... wrong. Kirby's Forward Smash is frighteningly strong.
Pro3: This doesn't take into account Kirby using setup moves for smashes, so it's pretty much discredited.

Con1: Sonic can probably recover from further than Kirby. In this specific matchup, it's easier for Kirby to KO Sonic, granted that he's familiar with it.
Con2: Eh, maybe, but it's been stated by two Kirby mains (and I've played against Kirby mains and seen this too) that they will generally spit you out for damage instead of trying to take your power.
Con3:

 

[ROOOOY!]

Upsmash, I'm thinking. I'm sure that has invincibilty frames.

Anyway, I think uairs to combat it would be a silly option, considering that the Kirby is SHing and Sonic can't really get underneath Kirby to hit up above him with his uair which is pretty disjoint above his feet. Uair hasn't got a lot of range to the sides of him, so I'd say it probably wouldn't work.

 

[Asdioh]

timmylove

XD

Anyway...yeah, if you powershield bair, I don't know how big Sonic's grab range is, but Kirby can usually retreat or double jump after a well-spaced bair, and there won't be much you can do about it. Against Marth (generally accepted as Kirby's worst matchup btw, 70:30 Marth) his SWORD gives him enough range to punish it, but I don't know about Sonic. Speaking of Marth, you guys were talking about him. Just wondering, what is the general consensus on that matchup's rating? I would imagine it being in Marth's favor (sword vs fist video game is broken) but I don't know.

Anyway...some more things to watch for against Kirby, though some of them are obvious:

-fsmash will kill you faster than you can say "I'm too cheap!"

-dsmash is also good, though not used as often. I'm not positive exactly, but I think dsmash sends you flying vertically when Kirby's body is touching you, and horizontally when the edge of his foot touches you.

-upsmash is also good (lol) and some Kirbys (like me) sometimes simply run up to you and upsmash for unexpected kos.

-Again I'm not totally positive, but I think the first swing of aerial hammer has more vertical knockback, whereas the second swing has more horizontal knockback. I personally aim for the second swing almost all the time.

-ground hammer is an incredibly good ko move. I don't know the exact percentage (who pays attention to this stuff?) but at approximately 80 it can kill you in the middle of the stage. It's slow though, so it sometimes requires serious mindgames to pull off. I'm the only Kirby I have ever seen do this, but I like to run past the opponent, whether they're standing still or falling towards the ground, and do a reverse grounded hammer for kos. Hard to pull off, but epic. Watch out for it if you fight me o_O

-upthrow will kill you at...I don't know the % for Sonic, but I'm guessing around 150. Less if he upthrows you onto a raised platform (battlefield)

-dair to footstool will own you offstage. And if you make your recovery onto the stage too predictable, Kirby's rock edgeguard will also own you.

That's about it. If one of your attacks, such as fsmash, gets shielded, prepare to get shieldgrabbed, or to eat a bair out of shield, depending on which way Kirby is facing.

Also, watch out for this

Edit:

kirby lacks good aerials other than his Neutral aerial

O_O

I won't say that nair is his worst aerial, but it will be used less than the others. It comes out nearly instantly, but the knockback is so low, and the ending lag is so long, that you won't see it all that often other than as a counterattack.
-fair owns
-bair owns
-dair has startup lag, but can lead into fsmash (and your death) if done right
-uair can juggle you, and is good on its own

 

[ROOOOY!]

Sonic vs Marth is about 35:65 it's generally agreed upon, it'd be mega **** if Sonic wasn't one of the only characters who actually has the speed to punish any lag Marth has.

Also

Also, watch out for this

Made my day.

 

[Tenki]

XD

Anyway...yeah, if you powershield bair, I don't know how big Sonic's grab range is, but Kirby can usually retreat or double jump after a well-spaced bair, and there won't be much you can do about it. Against Marth (generally accepted as Kirby's worst matchup btw, 70:30 Marth) his SWORD gives him enough range to punish it, but I don't know about Sonic. Speaking of Marth, you guys were talking about him. Just wondering, what is the general consensus on that matchup's rating? I would imagine it being in Marth's favor (sword vs fist video game is broken) but I don't know.

Let's just say that if Sonic is within 1/2 of FD away from you, and you are anywhere higher than his head height, he can run under you and screw up your spacing.

The general consensus on is 60:40 in Marth's advantage. I'm personally feeling it's more 70:30, but I never actually said that during the Marth discussion =l

Anyway...some more things to watch for against Kirby, though some of them are obvious:

-fsmash will kill you faster than you can say "I'm too cheap!"

-dsmash is also good, though not used as often. I'm not positive exactly, but I think dsmash sends you flying vertically when Kirby's body is touching you, and horizontally when the edge of his foot touches you.

-upsmash is also good (lol) and some Kirbys (like me) sometimes simply run up to you and upsmash for unexpected kos.

-Again I'm not totally positive, but I think the first swing of aerial hammer has more vertical knockback, whereas the second swing has more horizontal knockback. I personally aim for the second swing almost all the time.

-ground hammer is an incredibly good ko move. I don't know the exact percentage (who pays attention to this stuff?) but at approximately 80 it can kill you in the middle of the stage. It's slow though, so it sometimes requires serious mindgames to pull off. I'm the only Kirby I have ever seen do this, but I like to run past the opponent, whether they're standing still or falling towards the ground, and do a reverse grounded hammer for kos. Hard to pull off, but epic. Watch out for it if you fight me o_O

-upthrow will kill you at...I don't know the % for Sonic, but I'm guessing around 150. Less if he upthrows you onto a raised platform (battlefield)

-dair to footstool will own you offstage. And if you make your recovery onto the stage too predictable, Kirby's rock edgeguard will also own you.

That's about it. If one of your attacks, such as fsmash, gets shielded, prepare to get shieldgrabbed, or to eat a bair out of shield, depending on which way Kirby is facing.

Also, watch out for this

That was actually pretty good info lol. I wasn't familiar with some of that.
-D-smash's two trajectories
-Different trajectories for airhammer
-U-throw o_O; well, uhh.. we can kill Kirby with U-throw at like 170ish% on FD.. lol. Sonic is 10-15% vertically heavier than Mario, or something like that.

- Kirby F-smash kill%'s, anyone? Preferrably on Sonic, but even if it's on Mario, we should be able to translate that to Sonic's weight. I just remember having a feeling after getting hit by Kirby F-smashes.

- Not sure about D-air>footstool. I usually DI sideways with a feeling after getting sent downwards, but I haven't been footstooled out of it because I was usually further off to the side. On FD, Sonic can spring and walljump off the under-ledge to avoid punishment. Also, if he spaces well, he should be able to come up just over the edge while being able to airdodge. Most Kirby players I've met gave up on trying to rock edgeguard lol. I know Sonic's invulnerability and vulnerability points during his spring (infzy knows from experience >_>)

 

[Umby]

Kinda mad t!mmy called me Teh Umbry.

 

[Greenstreet]

hu was saying that down b was easier to spin shot in here. i remember seeing in here and wanted to inquire.

 

[Dark Sonic]

XD

Anyway...yeah, if you powershield bair, I don't know how big Sonic's grab range is, but Kirby can usually retreat or double jump after a well-spaced bair, and there won't be much you can do about it. Against Marth (generally accepted as Kirby's worst matchup btw, 70:30 Marth) his SWORD gives him enough range to punish it, but I don't know about Sonic. Speaking of Marth, you guys were talking about him. Just wondering, what is the general consensus on that matchup's rating? I would imagine it being in Marth's favor (sword vs fist video game is broken) but I don't know.

Sonic would just drop his shield and run foward with a fair or uair if he powershielded a bair. Never think Sonic is out of range to punish somthing (well, unless it has super low lag or a lot of shieldstun, to which Kirby's bair might apply)

Anyway...some more things to watch for against Kirby, though some of them are obvious:

-fsmash will kill you faster than you can say "I'm too cheap!"

-dsmash is also good, though not used as often. I'm not positive exactly, but I think dsmash sends you flying vertically when Kirby's body is touching you, and horizontally when the edge of his foot touches you.

Yep.

-upsmash is also good (lol) and some Kirbys (like me) sometimes simply run up to you and upsmash for unexpected kos.

Well, mindgames generally don't count in matchups (unless it's something that's used like all the time), but point taken. His up smash is good.

-Again I'm not totally positive, but I think the first swing of aerial hammer has more vertical knockback, whereas the second swing has more horizontal knockback. I personally aim for the second swing almost all the time.

But how much vertical range does it have. Because we may be able to beat it with our dair/bair/uair.

-ground hammer is an incredibly good ko move. I don't know the exact percentage (who pays attention to this stuff?) but at approximately 80 it can kill you in the middle of the stage. It's slow though, so it sometimes requires serious mindgames to pull off. I'm the only Kirby I have ever seen do this, but I like to run past the opponent, whether they're standing still or falling towards the ground, and do a reverse grounded hammer for kos. Hard to pull off, but epic. Watch out for it if you fight me o_O

I have a hard time believing that it kills upper midweights at 80% with full DI.

-upthrow will kill you at...I don't know the % for Sonic, but I'm guessing around 150. Less if he upthrows you onto a raised platform (battlefield)

Good to know.

-dair to footstool will own you offstage. And if you make your recovery onto the stage too predictable, Kirby's rock edgeguard will also own you.

Not true. Sonic will still be able to recover with his amazing up B most of the time (unless he was a little far below stage level when the dair hit him. As for the rock edgeguard, Sonic can just airdodge (or if he's lucky you'll pass through him during his invincibility frames.)

That's about it. If one of your attacks, such as fsmash, gets shielded, prepare to get shieldgrabbed, or to eat a bair out of shield, depending on which way Kirby is facing.

F-smash has rediculous range so...you're not going to shieldgrab it (though you may have time to just drop your shield and dash grab anyway). But it's not something that should affect the matchup too much.

Though I guess I don't know the kirby matchup too well either. But this weekend I'm going to a pretty big smashfest and a few Kirby mains will be there (nobody famous, but hey I'm not famous either). I'll do some experimenting and comment later.

Edit:O_O
Don't listen to dentrag2

 

[Dark Sonic]

hu was saying that down b was easier to spin shot in here. i remember seeing in here and wanted to inquire.

That was me. I said that because I find it easier to spinshot with down B in the air over side B (and theoretically it's faster because side B has longer startup). On the ground I use side B though.

edit:whoops double post.

 

[memphischains]

I had a chance to play Chu, but then I left. Kinda wish I did.

 

[t!MmY]

Asdioh, I don't think anyone was disrespecting anyone since this is just a discussion on character matchups with wrong things being pointed out. I guess they're just not used to the hyperbole I use to highlight things... though jumping on the 'doesn't know the matchup' thing was a bit odd considering my experience.

I'm not positive exactly, but I think dsmash sends you flying vertically when Kirby's body is touching you, and horizontally when the edge of his foot touches you.

-Again I'm not totally positive, but I think the first swing of aerial hammer has more vertical knockback, whereas the second swing has more horizontal knockback.

-I'm the only Kirby I have ever seen do this, but I like to run past the opponent, whether they're standing still or falling towards the ground, and do a reverse grounded hammer for kos.

-dair to footstool will own you offstage. And if you make your recovery onto the stage too predictable, Kirby's rock edgeguard will also own you.

I won't say that nair is his worst aerial, but it will be used less than the others. It comes out nearly instantly, but the knockback is so low, and the ending lag is so long, that you won't see it all that often other than as a counterattack.

Notes on the above quote:

Yes, D-smash sweetspots at the base of Kirby's feet, which is a vertical launcher and will KO a 'high-end medium weight' around 120%. The non-sweetspot (toes) will send the opponent at a sharp horizontal angle (pseudo spike) like Jiggly's D-smash.

'Air Hammer' (Giant Swing) deals 17% with the first swing and 15% for the second swing. Despite the damage difference, the 2nd swing is generally more feared due to its sharp horizontal knockback (like the difference between Meta Knight's F-smash and D-smash).

I've been doing the 'pivot hammer' for a while, but mostly in friendlies since it's cornercase and can lead to severe punishment when whiffed.

Sonic has enough mobility on his recovery that he should be able to avoid Kirby's D-air edge guard due to the startup time. Same goes for Stone. F-air and B-air work great to jump out and hit Sonic, but because of this, Sonic will often times drop low to avoid these horizontal-based attacks. When Sonic goes low, that's when you should be expecting the D-air and Stone.

N-air does not come out quickly. 'Quick' for Kirby is his B-air. The n-air's speed is mediocre at best, which is why it is used as a premptive strike to cover a lot of range with its long duration. Look for it to be used high with a fast-fall to cancel it. Since it has light knockback, it is mostly used to combo into Jab, U-tilt, D-tilt, F-tilt, or F-smash.

Speaking of tilts, Sonic players should be well adviced to watch out for any and all of Kirby's tilts. They are quick, have good range, and usualy lead to follow-up attacks; D-tilt into a trip, U-tilt into a juggle.

 

[Tenki]

Asdioh, I don't think anyone was disrespecting anyone since this is just a discussion on character matchups with wrong things being pointed out. I guess they're just not used to the hyperbole I use to highlight things... though jumping on the 'doesn't know the matchup' thing was a bit odd considering my experience.

We're way too paranoid, especially after the Luc vs Son thread, to be using hyperboles on.

F-air and B-air work great to jump out and hit Sonic, but because of this, Sonic will often times drop low to avoid these horizontal-based attacks. When Sonic goes low, that's when you should be expecting the D-air and Stone.

Hm..

Maybe.

To an extent lol.

Kirby might just be able to fall an aerial/stone to take advantage of the [short] window of vulnerability between Sonic's spring invincibility frames and airdodgeable frames. Hasn't happened to me yet, but I guess that could be something of concern =/

Otherwise, nice info

Question:
How does Kirby like platforms?

 

[t!MmY]

Let's just say that if Sonic is within 1/2 of FD away from you, and you are anywhere higher than his head height, he can run under you and screw up your spacing.

- Kirby F-smash kill%'s, anyone? Preferrably on Sonic, but even if it's on Mario, we should be able to translate that to Sonic's weight. I just remember having a feeling after getting hit by Kirby F-smashes.

- Not sure about D-air>footstool.

Kirby's Short Hop is very low to the ground (he won't be going over Sonic's head). It's Kirby's 'spacing' tool.

I don't have the KO% numbers in front of me - I wrote them down, though so I could possibly post it later. Off the top of my head:

Attack: U-smash
Stage: Final Destination
Position: Center
KOs: 92% (no DI), 120% (w/DI)

Attack: F-smash
Stage: Final Destination
Position: Center
KOs: 112% (no DI), 135% (w/DI)

Attack: F-smash
Stage: Final Destination
Position: Edge
KOs: ~50% (no DI), ~99% (w/DI)

I'll post the solid numbers later.

Kinda mad t!mmy called me Teh Umbry.

My apologies, Umby.

I have a hard time believing that it kills upper midweights at 80% with full DI.

Believe it. X_X

 

[aeghrur]

2 F-smashes? or 1 D-smash and one F-smash? Also, WOW, X_X

 

[t!MmY]

We're way too paranoid, especially after the Luc vs Son thread, to be using hyperboles on.

I'd ask about it, but it's probably better I didn't. This at least explains the odd tension I wasn't expecting when I first showed up. Much different over at the Kirby boards.

Kirby might just be able to fall an aerial/stone to take advantage of the [short] window of vulnerability between Sonic's spring invincibility frames and airdodgeable frames.

How does Kirby like platforms?

Re: Stone/Dair
As I mentioned, it's something to look out for, but it's easy to avoid due to startup animation. One thing that's important to mention is that I rarely use Stone/Dair as an edge guard against my crewmates since they know the timing. When I show up to an out-of-state tournament, I abuse Stone/Dair as much as I feel I can get away with because people aren't familiar with the timing and haven't learned what to do ahead of time. I'm granted a KO at best, and left unpunished at worst.

Kirby loves platforms. (exceptions might be made for matchups like Marth, but even then they can both take advantage of the platforms).

 

[Asdioh]

F-smash has rediculous range so...you're not going to shieldgrab it

Maybe so, but Kirby's grab range itself is quite ridiculous. Don't underestimate it

As for Sonic being able to get out of dair->footstool..maybe. I might overestimate it because it is incredibly good in Kirby dittos. Anytime I play Shadowdragon, I can expect to die to at least one dair->footstool in our set of matches. If Kirby's body is right on you as he dairs, he can footstool immediately after. I don't see why this wouldn't work on Sonic. It might not be an autokill, but beware of it, because it will send you pretty far down before you can recover.

And yes, don't be surprised if you die at 80% on the edge of the stage from fsmash.

But how much vertical range does it have. Because we may be able to beat it with our dair/bair/uair.

Vertical range? The "Giant Swing" as T!mmy insists on calling the aerial hammer, does not have much vertical range. But it has decent horizontal range. And Kirby's only use it when they think they can predict you, it's not a great move to be used frequently. For example, if they think you'll airdodge, the hammer is laggy enough to punish airdodges, at least by the second swing.

Oh, and I just practiced Sonic for a bit, and I'm horrible. >_> I can only ko with upair...

Spoiler

At least my Captain Falcon is top tier

 

[t!MmY]

The d-air combos into the Footstool. If the Footstool misses, the d-air wasn't accurate.

Edit:
Hey, I just call it the "Giant Swing" because that's what it's always been called.

 

[Tenki]

As for Sonic being able to get out of dair->footstool..maybe. I might overestimate it because it is incredibly good in Kirby dittos. Anytime I play Shadowdragon, I can expect to die to at least one dair->footstool in our set of matches. If Kirby's body is right on you as he dairs, he can footstool immediately after. I don't see why this wouldn't work on Sonic. It might not be an autokill, but beware of it, because it will send you pretty far down before you can recover.

Vertical range? The "Giant Swing" as T!mmy insists on calling the aerial hammer, does not have much vertical range. But it has decent horizontal range. And Kirby's only use it when they think they can predict you, it's not a great move to be used frequently. For example, if they think you'll airdodge, the hammer is laggy enough to punish airdodges, at least by the second swing.

Oh, and I just practiced Sonic for a bit, and I'm horrible. >_> I can only ko with upair...

Spoiler

At least my Captain Falcon is top tier

- hm. Well, check this out, say you pull it off.
D-air > footstool.
-- Sonic is falling, Kirby is multi-jumping up (spamming jump button)
-- Sonic uses spring, Kirby's jump spam triggers a footstool on Sonic, and Sonic uses teh infamous double-spring! // Sonic uses spring, Kirby did not footstool, and Sonic gains extra distance via Spring>footstool [footstooling on Kirby lol]!


lol it sounds silly. Eh, who knows. Doesn't sound very reliable for the Sonic matchup.

- Good enough. I guess that means that (if counter-predicted), it's vulnerable to U-air's vertical/slightly horizontal range, falling B-airs, and maybe even sweetspot D-airs.

- Tsk tsk, U-air is one of Sonic's least reliable kill moves, because the setup required for it is usually really predictable and makes it easy to airdodge =P mindgamed f-smashes ftw.

 

[t!MmY]

Sonic can't pull out the spring because he's in hitstun from the D-air.

The Giant Swing is easily trumped by a number of things due to its small size and long startup. The reason it hits is due to prediction on part of the Kirby player (and usually the suprise of the Hammer itself).

 

[da K.I.D.]

kirbys d air to facejump functions the same way as foxs offstage dair to shine it combos if they are close enuff, which they probably are.

and about my comment, i was being dead serious when i said that i respect you for admitting you dont know much about sonic but you **** him and heres how, thats how every one should act. i give timmy mad props for being one of the like, 4 kirbys that i can name off hand

and yes ground hammer ***** hardcore, think about how sonics do the run past- screechstop-reverse f-smash, now think about it hitting as hard as DKs forward smash, those are the situations that kirbys will ground hammer, in my experience. when they want you to dodge/fall into it.

at asdioh (i know you hate ppl getting your name wrong so i double checked, lol) playing sonic is hard aint it? learn to gimp. sonic would be so much better if his down air had the knockback zamus's does...

 

[Tenki]

Sonic can't pull out the spring because he's in hitstun from the D-air.

The Giant Swing is easily trumped by a number of things due to its small size and long startup. The reason it hits is due to prediction on part of the Kirby player (and usually the suprise of the Hammer itself).

Isn't it a D-air>Footstool though? So shouldn't he be in footstool stun? Or did you mean Footstool> D-air?

 

[Asdioh]

- Tsk tsk, U-air is one of Sonic's least reliable kill moves, because the setup required for it is usually really predictable and makes it easy to airdodge =P mindgamed f-smashes ftw.

I blame lag (always a valid excuse) I've never really played Sonic on wifi, except to spam "YOU'RE TOO SLOOW!"

At least I've gotten good enough with Sonic that I no longer suicide all the time.

Ok, I can see dair->footstool not working too well on Sonic because of the incredible vertical range of his up B.

So then, watch out for bair wall of pains.

Also, the thing about spacing bairs for Kirby, is that he can jump again after a shorthopped bair, and do another bair at the same time. And having 5 jumps is useful, it makes it harder to predict or punish.

Edit:

Isn't it a D-air>Footstool though? So shouldn't he be in footstool stun?

That's what he meant...I think..I hope. Otherwise Brawl has some seriously weird physics going on. Footstool stun lasts a decent time, and you watch your character look stupid as he spins toward the blast zone. Maybe I can find a video of Kirbys dair->footstool in action..probably not on Sonic though.

small size and long startup

Spoiler

maybe you have that problem...

 

[Umby]

I think some wifi matches are in order to explore a few things.

Even though wifi sucks.

 

[Asdioh]

Would you like to play? I play wifi all the time, just let me know.

 

[Boxob]

Would you like to play? I play wifi all the time, just let me know.

I'll play you.

My Sonic's sexier than Umby's anyway.

 

[Umby]

I'll play you.

My Sonic's sexier than Umby's anyway.

Besides the fact that my Brawl availability is limited to certain times during the day...











Boxob is absolutely correct. (I do not joke when I say this.)

 

[Boxob]

Lol, new sig.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic can't pull out the spring because he's in hitstun from the D-air.

How reliable is said combo? And does it depend on Kirby's spacing, or does the dair always set up for a footstool (like, if I'm only tipped by the dair, am I still close enough to get footstooled)?

And I just tested the grounded hammer. Kills at ****in 87% with full DI+fair+second jump. DO NOT get hit by this thing!

 

[Asdioh]

Boxob, I'll go add you now. o_o

I tried searching for decent Sonic vs Kirby videos on youtube, but all I got were some crappy matches, and people playing with items >_>

 

[da K.I.D.]

so make some good vids with us lol

 

[Boxob]

Let's make some good videos, I'll host the room, two stocks not time limit.

 

[Boxob]

Well, I have videos showing how to fight Kirby, and how NOT to fight Kirby.

 

[Asdioh]

On wifi, his speed is annoying as hell to deal with, but his lack of ko power evens it out.

D:

ggs Boxob...I saved 2 replays. Do you want me to upload them? Are they even worth it? I don't have Dazzle or anything, but I have a camera with decent quality. http://www.youtube.com/user/Hoidsa

Out of like 5 games, he won all but 1 @_@ they were close enough, but I kept losing. I run into Fsmash too much. That last game, I misjudged the distance, I thought I would roll right outside of Fsmash's range..obviously not.

I like how it picked your stage 4 times in a row. Rigged wifi is rigged.

Also, Kirby's upthrow is weaker than I wrote. I upthrew Boxob at...I forgot, 150something, and it did not ko him, possibly because of di. I expect 165%+ is where you have to be to get star ko'd by it on Final Destination.

But srsly, Sonic+wifi =

I like how one of our matches lasted like 4:40, even with only 2 stocks. @_@

 

[Boxob]

D:

ggs Boxob...I saved 2 replays. Do you want me to upload them? Are they even worth it?

Out of like 6 games, he won all but 1 @_@ they were close enough, but I kept losing. I run into Fsmash too much.

But srsly, Sonic+wifi =

I saved all of them that were under 3 minutes.

Which one's did you save? You can upload if you want, they were all pretty good games.

Don't worry about the Fsmashes, it's what Sonic Players do to, mindgames.

Or at least the good ones.

 

[Browny]

i hope there was some pretty cool boxobair combos in at least one of these matches going to be uploaded.