Match-Up Discussion #5! King Dedede

Go.

instead of playing spacing game, play dodge and punish game. a lot of people go for the short hop fair approach only to run into a waddle towards the beginning of the match, makes me laugh.

there isnt much i have to say right now other than that. nair, f smash, and DB do seem very strong against d3 though.

Matchup where nair is more useful than you can think. Dancing Blade does wonders, it's not like you can miss basically.

First off, what's safe against DDD?

This is a match up where you need to approach. DDD's gonna do a lot of waddle d camping, and he will try to brick wall you with tilts and bairs. this is Marth's 2nd worse match up IMO behind MetaKnight.

What I like to do:

I try to approach him with a dash into shield. Maybe get a dancing blades out of your shield or either a grab. It depends on how he reacts. 9/10 he will try to halt you with a waddle d.

Remember: hitting waddle d's stales which ever move you use to hit them away. Try jabbing them away.

Watch his Ftilt range. You're not gonna out space it. I think it's best to be on the look out for it so you can shield it then punish.

Lirok:

How do you not play a spacing game? He outranges you. You have to poke D3 with well spaced fairs and tilts.

Grandmaster:

Dashing into shield isn't a very good idea unless you are going to end up still a good distance away from him. He'll just grab you.

yeah, this one gives me the most questions. it just confuses me.

the SH fair will give you a one way ticket into a shield into chain grab.

Outranges pretty much all your attacks, and has a projectile that can potentially do a lot of damage

Speed doesn't matter too much, you can Dolphin Slash but since he's big and fat he could actually use it to his advantage once hit

I think the main thing to worry about is the approach since he has a large arsenal of defense tactics against Marth.

Honestly I have a tougher time against D3 I think, it's just frustrating.

If your fair is getting shield grabbed you aren't spacing properly.

Yes this is a horrible Matchup, you have to approach.

SH Fair gets Ftilted by DDD.
SH Fair > retreating Fair gets Ftilted.
DB gets grabbed if the DDD is smart enough to hold his shield up.
Run Shield gets you grabbed as well.
While getting chain grabbed, you can UPB out of it. But if the DDD knows he will wait and then charge a Smash to catch your landing.
DDD has no safe approach to you so he'll just wait and throw Waddle Ds.
You have to get in close and Mix up your attacks so he'll keep guessing.
If the DDD doens't know what to do or how to react, he'll most likely roll and try to grab or Utilt you.

On the positive side, once you start ledging DDD you should have his stock.
Fairing his jumps so he has to UPB and then punishing his landing or going for the ledge everytime.
He only has superarmor going up, on the way down you could even charge a smash if you know where he's going to land.

Getting ledged by continual Bairs is a pain, but if you don't panic and UPB at the right time you should always make it back.
DDD can't jump that high, that fast. So I like to waste my jump early to try and get over him, or at least to keep from getting hit by all the Bairs.
This could result in you getting hit by Uairs though.

Discovering a safe way to fight this character is difficult, simply spacing isn't good enough.
He will just shield and then wait it out, and when your far enough back he'll start Ftilting and throwing Waddle Ds again.
Alot of DDDs are shameless with their shield grabs though, so try not to be predictable and you should be able to avoid getting grabbed too much.

Steel2nd said:

If your fair is getting shield grabbed you aren't spacing properly.

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Touche, touche.

K, Dedede is a tough match-up.

His advantages:

- He's heavy.
- He has a great grab range and his ftilt outranges all of your moves.
- Decent recovery, though it CAN be taken advantage of if you can react quickly enough.
- Difficult to space against him.
- Powerful moves that can kill Marth rather early.

Marth's Advantages:

- He's faster.
- All of Marth's ground moves outrange Dedede's grab.
- Marth can beat Dedede's ftilt with a well spaced SH fair.
- Marth can get out of the chain grab.
- Can abuse D3's recovery.


So obviously you can't out-range D3. His ftilt beats everyone of your moves, shield breaker included. However, a SH fair will allow you to go over the ftilt and you can begin to apply pressure. You can simply jab/shield/jump over his Waddle dees.

Once you are inside you outrange D3's grab and dangerous up tilt with pretty much all of your moves. Poke him with well spaced tilts and fairs and you shouldn't get punished.

If D3 can't perform the chain grab perfectly then Marth can escape with an up b. D3 will recognize this eventually and wait for the up b and punish you. Don't abuse it, if you know he will wait reset your spacing and start over.

D3's recovery is pretty easy to abuse. You can probably get a fair or two off the stage as he floats back for free %. If he uses his up b and doesn't cancel it you can do a well timed up smash, up air, counter, or wait for him to land and punish that way. If he cancels it and heads for the ledge try and react quickly and grab the ledge. He'll fall to his death.

This match up is just about watching your spacing and playing smart. Make a mistake and you'll get grabbed or up tilted. His smashes should be pretty easy to avoid.

50-50 imo.

Nair for the secks.

My best friend mains D3, so I have LOTS of experience with this matchup. Basically, you want to bait out D3s moves, and punish. I basically use this strat.

A) Walk toward D3, just out of ftilt range, perfect shield all projectiles on the way.

B) Mindgame your way inside. Bait out a ftilt and full jump, perfect shield a Waddle and then Dancing Blade, etc.

C) Grab and Chain Throw to the edge, and then Fair and Nair him off. I generally score more than 30 damage like this. Dancing Blade works.

D) If he's near the edge, don't be afraid to throw Fsmash. Even if it missed, it'll push him onto the ledge. D3 has HORRIBLE options off the ledge.

E) Once you get him to 100 damage, the game is easy. Basically, you should be primarily mixing up well spaced fairs, dtilts(out of grab range), and grabs (get those little hits in too) to rack up damage.

F) IF YOU KNOW HOW, AND ONLY IF . . . throw shieldbreakers appropriately. These will make shieldgrabbing you much harder, and may result in a stock if you break it. Since your Dancing Blade should almost always be the down variation for easy shield poke, and maximum shield wear, you should be able to either break the shield, or persuade him not use it, both good.

The most important part of killing D3 is the edgeguard. You basically MUST tipper him to kill him, or have a fresh smash attack, else he doesn't die until like 160. When in the air, D3 is weak from the front, because his Fair swings slow. If you edgeguard well enough to make him waste all of his jumps, he's dead. With such predictable recovery, I NEVER let him back on the stage.

I'll try to get some vids of this match soon. I must have millions of vs D3 replays, and my friend just got a camera.

this is definitely a beastly match-up, i'd say dtilt at max range and read reactions, if the d3 spot dodges retreat, because his grab is ridiculously quick, and if you are getting chaingrabbed try to keep tapping the opposite direction if the d3 think that you're spot dodging then he'll dash attack and you should be able to set up a free smash attack for the missed dash attack, or you could just hold your shield and when he dashes upB out of it, and if i'm not mistaken a fresh dolphin slash will kill almost everyone at 100% on the ledge...so if d3 tries to recover and you have a fresh upB wait 4 his movement he'll most likely go for the edge then dash and upB him, if you don't kill him, he won't have anymore jumps so he probably won't have a chance to recover

No, if D3 spot dodge, punish with Dancing Blade. You want to get that free hit.

Shieldbreaker works really good from what ive played against DDD. You will get punished for using it if it doesn't break the shield, but if you stay on his fat *** and punish the diminished shield then you get the advantage for a while.

D3's chain grab is NOT escapable. Don't count on the D3 not knowing how to do the chain grab perfectly. You should spam up-b anyways though, you never know.

SHNair is a viable kill move fresh.

Short hop over the f-tilt (it has no vertical hitbox), then just play your spacing game.

Steel2nd said:

Lirok:

How do you not play a spacing game? He outranges you. You have to poke D3 with well spaced fairs and tilts.

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sorry for late response.

you are right, spacing is still used. just as i see people are saying, getting on the inside to unleash nairs and DB is pretty strong. spacing is still good for this match up, just not nearly as much as some others.

on the subject of chain grab, expect them to be able to be good at it of course, unless they are a very unskilled player, so use up b to possible avoid it. watch out though. if up b get predictable, punishment could be rough. good mind game for D3s

Spacing is the essence of fighting games.

If you know nothing else, know this.

Spacing is more then just staying away and whoring your attacks with the most range.

I play a good amont of 3Ds and basicly alot of them the grab once Dash in with the shield to see if you UB or not if you do they follow up if not grab again.

but for the match up it seem really even or bit more for Marth.

Emblem Lord said:

Spacing is essence of fighting games.

If you know nothing else, know this.

Spacing is more then just staying staying away and whoring your attacks with the most range.

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i agree with this. but you may as well explain what spacing is since you have already judged an assumed definition to be false. only if you feel its necessary of course, not for me though, i believe i lack little awareness to the meaning of spacing.

btw the sig is impressive.

jinofcoolnes said:

I play a good amont of 3Ds and basicly alot of them the grab once Dash in with the shield to see if you UB or not if you do they follow up if not grab again.

but for the match up it seem really even or bit more for Marth.

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if it were only this easy. i question the skill level of the D3s you fight.

and getting predictable with up b is bad thing. horrible punishment follows.

I don't think Marth can get out of perfectly timed d3 chain grab with dolphin slash. However, marth does go pretty far when d-thrown, and tbh d3 doesnt get alot of percent off of it.

Marth's Advantages

- Faster in attack speed and running speed
- Greater aerial mobility
- Able to pressure Dedede really well
- Has a CG into DB at lower percents
- Has some nasty edgeguarding strats on Dedede
- Can punish all of Dedede's ground moves on block other then F-smash
- Nair can be used as a safe spammable kill move since Dedede is tall and fat


Dedede's advantages

- Can live very long thanks to his great weight
- Has a projectile
- Has a CG on Marth that works at any percent and can always be ended with f-tilt
- Great recovery and has nasty edgeguarding tricks on Marth
- Can easily punish sloppy play with CG and u-tilt which will kill at low percents
- F-tilt can shut down ground approaches and outranges all of Marth's ground moves.
- Has great grab range.


This match is Marth's offense vs Dedede's defense. Dedede's main tools on stage will be his projectile, his grab, shield grabs, and his f-tilt. Marth's main tools will be fair, nair, DB, and d-tilt. The reason why most Marth's struggle in this match is because they feel like Dedede shuts down a ground approach with f-tilts and his projectiles and then when they get in they have to deal with Dedede's shield grab which leads to a CG.

So let's get some facts straight. You can SH over f-tilt and still manage to fair Dedede if you were SHing at the moment he started the f-tilt. You can also fair his projectiles except the spikey Gordos. So SH fair takes care of his two main defensive options. Still there is that pesky shield grab to contend with. Not to worry though. Alot of Marth's options outrange Dedede's grab. In fact, even Marth's jab outranges Dedede's grab. So this means that all of Marth's pressure tools are safe from shield grab when they are blocked. Just space at the tip and you will be ok. To space your fairs be sure to DI back so you will hit his shield and then go back and land safely out of grab range.

Of course we are only human and mistakes, will happen. You will get grabbed here and there and CGed when you do get grabbed. But with practice you won't get grabbed very much at all when fighting Dedede. If Dedede does get the CG off it won't be too much damage. Around the mid 20's unless it's FD in which case it could reach the high 30's or low 40's if Dedede started the CG far on one side. But this usually isn't the case. So you will usually be looking at 20 something damage.

Marth has a CG combo on Dedede at 0. It's just f-throw to f-throw to DB for around 20 something damage. Nothing crazy but it's good to know. Speaking f-throw. It's good for setting up Marth's spacing on Dedede since he is so fat and he will most likely just DI away so you can easily predict what he will do.

Also be aware that although Marth must take an offensive role in this match, he defensive game is still great. If Marth blocks an f-tilt or a projectile when he is close, he can punish with ease. I don't think he can punish a fully spaced f-tilt on block, but he can still use the time to close in and set-up his zoning. So dash into shield is still a viable option since if you block an f-tilt or a projectile you get an easy punish just remember to space well as always.

Allow me to step back and go over the proper spacing in this match. Basically you want to be close enough that Dedede can't use f-tilt or his projectile, but still far enough that you outrange his grab. This is Marth's optimal spacing in this match. Essentially at this range Dedede has no effective tools. His projectile and f-tilt would lose head to head against Marth's attacks because they come out slower. In this situation Dedede is EXTREMELY limited. He can try to dash grab or f-tilt, but that's risky. His best option is to roll away. And if you know he will try that you need only wait and then reset your zoning as he rolls. If he was foolish enough to roll behind you then it's an easy punish with DB.

Another little trick that Marth has up his sleeve in order to deal with Dedede's offense is to simply duck under his projectile. At a certain distance that starts from about 3 character lengths away from Dedede and ends at about 4 or 5 character lengths away from Dedede, Marth can duck under Dedede's projectiles and then close in while Dedede is still in his recovery animation. This distance also includes the latter half of the range of Dedede's f-tilt and a little bit more then that. So Marth can sit just outside of Dedede's f-tilt range and then he is SEVERELY limited. There is pretty much nothing he can do to attack Marth in this situation. Dedede has no approach game. If he tries to dash grab Marth can SH back to fair and swat him out. All he do is walk/roll/SH to reset his spacing which gives Marth enough time to reset his own spacing as well. And of course if Dedede attempts to f-tilt then Marth will be just outside of range and then Marth can punish.

Getting a kill on Dedede can be tough. He can live well up to 180% or higher if your kill moves aren't fresh or if you can't land a death blow. Marth's tipper d-smash can kill in the 130's while U-smash will kill in the 150's. Tipper F-smash can kill around the low 100's. But getting a kill in this match is actually easier then in other matches because thanks to Dedede's height, Marth's greatest weakness disappears. The fact that he doesn't have a safe, fast spammable kill move no longer applies here. Nair can be abused to the fullest in this match and can kill in the 130's. The key to sweetspotting the nair is to DI back after the first hit of the nair connects. Even if Nair doesn't kill it will set-up for edgeguarding.

Dedede can kill Marth alot sooner then Marth can kill him. Dedede's u-tilt can kill Marth at 100%. But honestly Dedede really can't set-up for this move vs Marth. Marth has to either do make an error and overshoot Dedede when he approachs or Dedede has to take a risk like rolling towards Marth and trying to u-tilt when Marth approaches with SH aerials. So he would have to try to predict what Marth is going to do. With good spacing and smart play Dedede won't really have any opportunities to hit with this move since Marth outranges it and will be playing the spacing game.

As far as edgeguarding goes both characters do mean things to each other. Dedede has his amazing Bair along with his multiple jumps. Marth's recovery being mediocre means that one wrong move when he is off the stage and that's it. Keep your wits about you when recovering. If Dedede tries to Bair alot don't challenge him since his Bair outranges your aerials. Instead try to airdodge past him or jump past. If your low and he tries to ledge drop bair then use your up b to plow through him. If he wants to ledge stall then use your forward B to stall then up b. Dedede also has his swallowcides so please be weary of Dedede at higher percents when he is on the ledge or off the stage.

Marth has his fair share of things he can do to Dedede when he is trying to recover. Since Dedede is so big and slow, it's not difficult to just run off and harass Dedede with fairs. Marth can also force Dedede to use an up b while hanging on the ledge. Then Marth can run under Dedede and counter. If Dedede eats it then he takes 15%. If he cancels Marth will get out his counter before Dedede recovers and then Marth can punish. If Dedede likes to try to be tricky with his up b and go for ledge grabs then you can go for the edgehug and he will die if he went for it. If he landed on the stage then you can get up and attack him or set up your zoning. You can also set Dedede up for spikes by hanging on the ledge. Dedede may try to use his jumps to go above you, in which case Marth can do ledge hopped bair or dair. Basically when edgeguarding Dedede you can almost always force him to either take damage or lose a stock.

Marth's traps work well on Dedede. Ledge trap is effective since Dedede has a mediocre ledge attack. D-tilt trap also works well since Dedede has slow movement and is limited in how he can deal with. All he can really do is roll. Juggle trap is ok, but since Dedede has multiple jumps it's not as effective as it is vs other characters. Marth has his f-throw trap when he can't do his f-throw combo. Dedede is heavy so he can't DI that far back and he probably won't jump away although he can, but that would put him in a disadvantageous position.


As far as stages go Dedede has a plethora of good counter pick options. He has Corneria, Delfino Plaza, Green Greens and Castle Siege. I suggest banning Green Greens. Easy infinites and low ceilings are just terrible. Corneria is just as bad though. Castle Siege and Delfino aren't that bad and I have beat a good Dedede in tourney on Castle Siege. You just can't play stupid when there are parts with walk-offs. Good stages for Marth are Battlefield, and any stage that has weird terrain or angle terrain like Brinstar or even Yoshis' island. The uneven ground screws up Dedede's CG timing and you won't have to worry about the CG as much. Lylat Cruise does this as well.


In terms of combat Marth has a clear advantage. He has all the tools to really limit what Dedede can do and when played well Dedede really can't punish Marth effectively. But Dedede is a tank and refuses to die. With great recovery and great weight he can take alot of punishment and wait for a chance to dish out great damage with a CG or get a kill with his u-tilt. He can also camp well thanks to his f-tilt and projectile, which can generate alot of chip damage over time. His edgeguarding is great as well thanks to multiple jumps and his bair. Still, it can't be denied that Marth has a ton of options vs Dedede and he dictates the flow of the match when he gets in. Dedede's survivability certainly helps, but Marth's options are enough to even it up.


Here are some random tidbits of info that you will find interesting.

- You can attack waddle dees and waddle doos to refresh your moves. Try using repeated forward b hits so they don't fly far when hit.

- If Dedede used any of his aerial jumps above a platform he won't be able to fall through it unless he is higher then the peak height of his normal full jump. If he tries he will just get a hard landing on the platform. He can still fall through normally with a SH, or a regular full jump.

- Waddle Dees do 5%. Waddle Doo's do 7%. Gordo's do 22%.

- A Gordo can kill around 75%.

- Dedede's f-tilt does about 6% and put's Dedede at frame disadvantage on hit when used at close range. So if he hits you with it when you are close you can still punish him before he recovers from his attack animation.

More random facts and tips.

If a D3 really good D3 is falling, with his back to you, don't sidestep anticipating a Bair. He may mindgame you be doing a reverse inhale. Just shield, which will allow you to react as needed.

If you prefer to counter D3's UpB, jump and counter him in midair. It will probably cause him to challenge you more, and if he cancels, you'll have all the time that he needs to fall to recover from your counter.

Perfect shielding D3's projectile is really easy.

You should almost always counter D3's projectile.

When getting off a ledge VS D3, stall and wait for him to do anything, then jump from the ledge (not ledgehop) unless he's open. If he's too close, swat him with Uairs. If you think he's going to drop bair, counter BEFORE you using your jump, or manuveur to safety and dodge.

If you can spike him, do it, lol.

Be patient with D3's upB. Many times, when you keep swatting him back off the stage, he'll try to cancel into the ledge more often. This is your opportunity to predict and score an Fsmash.

If getting Chaingrabbed and you are nearing the edge, try to DI back and down to catch the edge before you get Ftilted.

(I need to recheck this one. It's not confirmed, and I haven't done extensive testing on it.) Marth's down throw has more ending lag on larger characters, such as D3

Dancing Blade Down ending ***** D3. It also weakens his shield if he shields the whole thing. This makes him SB bait, and makes it harder for him to Shield grab for a while.

(This one could be more of a personal experience thing but . . .) if D3 tries to approach, mix in SBs when he enters the spacing. He shouldn't be able to grab if he shields it, and many times, they shield, and then continue trying to grab. If they do shield your attack, and you feel unsafe, DS probably will get you out of a bind, as it will easy own the coming grab.

If you sidestep D3's grab. Dancing Blade.

Footstooling D3 is a good idea when it can be done.

Be careful of hogging the ledge against D3, since his Up can spike. Watch out for deliberate attempts of this when D3 is at high percentages, and you at low. Nevertheless, hogging the edge and then edgeguarding forces him to waste more jumps, which is good.

Cloudstealth said:

Yes this is a horrible Matchup, you have to approach.

SH Fair gets Ftilted by DDD.
SH Fair > retreating Fair gets Ftilted.
DB gets grabbed if the DDD is smart enough to hold his shield up.
Run Shield gets you grabbed as well.
While getting chain grabbed, you can UPB out of it. But if the DDD knows he will wait and then charge a Smash to catch your landing.
DDD has no safe approach to you so he'll just wait and throw Waddle Ds.
You have to get in close and Mix up your attacks so he'll keep guessing.
If the DDD doens't know what to do or how to react, he'll most likely roll and try to grab or Utilt you.

On the positive side, once you start ledging DDD you should have his stock.
Fairing his jumps so he has to UPB and then punishing his landing or going for the ledge everytime.
He only has superarmor going up, on the way down you could even charge a smash if you know where he's going to land.

Getting ledged by continual Bairs is a pain, but if you don't panic and UPB at the right time you should always make it back.
DDD can't jump that high, that fast. So I like to waste my jump early to try and get over him, or at least to keep from getting hit by all the Bairs.
This could result in you getting hit by Uairs though.

Discovering a safe way to fight this character is difficult, simply spacing isn't good enough.
He will just shield and then wait it out, and when your far enough back he'll start Ftilting and throwing Waddle Ds again.
Alot of DDDs are shameless with their shield grabs though, so try not to be predictable and you should be able to avoid getting grabbed too much.

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In what matchup do you not have to approach? Lol

OmegaXF said:

In what matchup do you not have to approach? Lol

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Meta Knight for one. And you don't HAVE to approach a non-projectile user.

And if you're perfect shielding is on point, you don't have to approach some projectile users either. I don't have to approach Wolf, Mario, or Luigi if I don't want to, for examples.

Steel2nd said:

Meta Knight for one. And you don't HAVE to approach a non-projectile user.

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Ya, but Marth dittoes are annoying because neither wants to approach...

Use shield breaker when they are clearly trying to shield grab you.

His Ftilt out ranges everything you've got including counter.

Everything else has already been said.

Bump beacause there were at least 3 pages of discussion about Marth vs. DDD in the Pit thread and it's annoying the hell out of me because when I suddenly realize that I want to refresh my memory on Marth vs. DDD, I'm going to go wtf this is only two pages and then realize later that the pit thread has more info on DDD than the actual DDD thread.
/rant

Also, apparently some people have problems with it and are complaining about it, but are wussing out about the agreed match-up decision. If you have a problem with it and are you're going to complain about it, make a bloody post here. If not, then stop complaining.

Is the consensus here really that it's any even matchup? I've always felt that it was 60:40 in D3's favor....

He creates amazing brickwalls that are very tough to get by. His shield grab owns most of your options unless perfectly spaced. Chain Grab racks up a lot of damage. Ftilt out ranges all of your ground options. I believe his bair outranges your fair (correct me if im wrong), and hes heavy as hell. I dont see how this one is even, but I'd like to hear some more reasoning before making my final judgment.

I've also felt this was in D3's favor, 60-40. I don't know why we have it listed otherwise. Marth is so easy to gimp, and D3's bair is too good.

Honestly, Marth should also be laying some serious hurt on Dedede once he is off the stage, if not kill him. He's extremely vulnerable while puffing his way back, and once he up b's he has two options. Land unsafely on the stage which we punish and send him back out or cancel and grab onto the ledge. If we can see him doing this we can quickly grab the ledge and let him fall.

The edge guarding game is probably pretty even.

good so its not just me....

i agree that edgeguarding game is virtually even in this matchup, however i really believe that D3 beats him out on stage.

For the fair vs. bair argument, Marth out-prioritizes DDD just because Marth's using a sword and DDD is using his foot...correct me if I'm wrong. In theory, when marth does retreating fair for zoning, if DDD tries to outrange Marth, his foot will get hit by Marth. If DDD approaches Marth with fair Marth beats him on range(I think) and timing. If DDD backs up, the fair misses and everything resets.

Anyways, I would call this 55:45 DDD. While Marth does not have his regular zoning options in this match, he still has the advantage of speed in a majority of his moves. Still, DDD has enough moves that come out with speed. Bair for example, as well as ftilt(which outranges Marth's dtilt...) That combined with waddle-dee's force marth to approach. Then there's the annoying cg that racks up damage rather quickly....

The reason why I wouldn't call it 60:40 DDD though is that DDD is fat. He's also comparatively slow. Both in the air, on the ground, and with a good majority of his moves. I think a few people mentioned in this thread that Marth has great options on a lot of DDD's moves on block. This really gives Marth an advantage.

As I said, I would call it 55:45 DDD, but I didn't think the redistribution of the 5 points were enough for a topic bump.

eh, to me 55:45 is a lot different than 50:50. Thanks for the fair vs bair input btw

Either way, I still see it as a 60:40. Marth is forced to approach, and when he goes in to approach, it's a lot harder than approaching other characters because D3's defense is crazy good. Ftilt's, Waddles, and Bair create an amazing wall, and if you manage to get through its likely you will be shield grabbed. It's possible for the Marth to zone (almost) perfectly and take control, but it simply isn't likely or practical. Matchups are about who is more likely to win when both players are of even skill, and I must say that D3 simply has the tools that stop marth from taking control as he does in most matchups.


60:40 King Dedede IMO

I personally call this even.

Waddle dees are fun and it's free move regeneration. Dedede really can't pressure.

Honestly I don't feel limited vs Dedede at all, unlike when I fight Snake or MK.

Then again Dedede requires extreme patience and spacing expertise which is really what my style focuses on so I feel right at home fighting Dedede.

Thats interesting, because when I play D3 I feel as if I'm almost limited to four moves:

Fair, Dtilt, DB, and Dolphin Slash. I have a very patient and defensive play style, but I don't seem to have the same comfort you do against D3...

What other moves do you use besides those in your other matches?

Anyway, toss Nair in there and you are good to go IMO.

EL, I need a pikachu ratio from you sir.

What did they call it?

60/40 or 65/35 at worst IMO.