Weekly Character Discussion: Marth

Kyari said:

His recovery does suck, but you have to use his forward B in the air to stall as well as hold up after his Up+B to delay his descent, both of these options will help his recovery a LOT.

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Kel said:

The problem is that his Up B isn't a continuous attack. Holding UP after the up B will keep you in the air for only a short period of time, and during that time there is no hitbox to knock your opponent off the stage. This means that the opponent on the stage can simply wait until right before Marth uses his up B and grab the edge. The opponent then has invincibility frames throughout Marth's attack box and even after the attack box has disappeared. Holding up can save you if your opponent tries to get up off the edge by rolling or jumping or standing, but if the opponent knows what to do you're pretty screwed.

Over B gives you arial momentum if you use it right after a jump. It also kills your horizontal momentum. So that vertical gain comes with a price.

Neutral B can go pretty haywire by sending you under stages or right into a vulnerable spot against your opponent so it too has a price to pay.

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Mic_128 said:

He's still a girl.

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Average recovery

Nothing to get too excited about here folks. In a game where people can glide, rocket boost, bounce off trampolines, float, and have multiple jumps Marth's recovery is lackluster. It's pretty good for someone with no special powers and abilities though. He has his neutral B which gives him a momentum boost and a huge boost when it's fully charged. And his side b lets him stall in the air. His up b is very fast with invincibility for 5 frames on start-up and is very fast as well. Still his recovery is pretty straight forward overall and the only reason he doesn't get gimped left and right is because his up b is really really good.

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Samus - She has nothing on you really besides Zair, and f-tilt which outranges alot of your moves. Zair is annoying at first, so check out this thread where I talk about it and how to deal with. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=148271 The Zair is good, but in the end it's little more than an annoyance. Missiles are easy to deal with. Jab them or swipe at them. Or just dodge them entirely. Her SH is slow and floaty and it makes her very easy to read. Also when you get in close and set-up your spacing game she becomes very limited in what she can do. All your options either outrange hers or simply outspeed and outprioritze hers. She may try to roll, but in Brawl having a roll that slow is a death sentence. Punish her roll on reaction everytime. Also her grab is very slow, so when you see it coming just jump or roll, then punish. She can also try to SH back, but again her SH is slow. So as you can already tell, when Marth zones her she is in trouble. Her kill options are terrible. The only one you need to worry about it d-tilt, which is a little slow and unsafe on block. Also it won't hit you if you SH, so SH zoning will beat it. Her other kills moves just don't kill well or are too slow and easy to read. And her d-tilt only has kill potential when you are at alittle more then 130%. She has good edgeguarding thanks to Zair though and her bombs. Still you can hit her and kill her if you space well. If she tries to grapple to the ledge you can usually just up b her while she is swinging and it will stage spike her. To deal with her edge guarding just swipe her missles and be ready to airdodge that Zair, but honestly, I have been hit with Zair in the air and still made it back even when I was low on the screen. It's not too much to worry about unless you are far from the stage. Despite her being on the heavy side she still dies relatively early compared to other heavy weights and you will be able to consistently kill her sooner then she can kill you.

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D-tilt- This is Marth's main poking tool. A fast stab over the ground that leads to a free Dancing Blade at lower percents. Good range with ok damage, it can be canceled into any other action the moment Marth retracts his arm. This makes it one of the best pokes in the game. Very easy to play a spacing game with this since Marth can just SH, dash roll or w/e he wants to cancel it. A well spaced d-tilt can't be punished either. Abuse this move because it's awesome. Also doing repeated d-tilts in a row will cause Marth to move forward a bit with each one that he does. Just a little spacing tidbit to keep in mind. Also keep in mind that this will lose to SH approaches since it hits low to the ground. So be sure to mix-up between f-tilt and d-tilt to keep your opponent guessing.

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D-tilt to D-tilt: Does about 18%. Works from about 0% to 40%.

D-tilt to D-smash: Does about 26%. You have to be very close when you hit with the d-tilt and cancel ASAP into the D-smash. Works from 0% to 40%.

D-tilt to Dancing Blade: Does about 21% to 27%. Maybe a bit more if you tipper the Dancing Blade hits.

D-tilt to Grab: Not a real combo. Just a d*mn good mix-up tool to use when D-tilt no longer combos. Use this to make them fear shielding after a d-tilt on hit then you can do a Dancing Blade after a d-tilt on hit and it no longer combos or run into U-smash.

Tested on level 9 CPU Mario, on FD.

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Snake - Snake is a monster. His ground game rivals yours in speed and his range is virtually equal to yours on his tilts. His jab combo is also fast and strong.Also his f-tilt is a great damage racker and his u-tilt kills around 100%. As if you are playing a Marth ditto stay on the ground. Only use SH aerials when you are already close, since if you approach with them, you will eat an f-tilt to the face. His u-tilt is deadly so you MUST be aware of it's range. It's about the same range as Marth's jab. Snake has a good throw game thanks to his d-throw. Sets up a free tech chase so be sure to switch up what you do after it. Some can roll right or left, wake up in place, or wake up attack. If you start waiting to do an action, Snake can stick a C4 on you so be careful. Snake has an awesome control game thanks to all his explosives. Grenades can thrown at you or cooked then tossed at you so they explode quickly. C4's can be be planted and used as surprise moves. Mines are simply pure space control. Well grenades can be tossed back at Snake and shielded. Mines can be hit or used against Snake. C4's can be difficult to actually hit with as long as you pay attention. You can DI his jab combo too. Just DI back and the third hit should miss most of the time, then you can punish. You will want to rely more on d-tilts on this match-up, since they outrange all of Snake's moves except the second hit of his f-tilt. Try to keep Snake in the air since he is juggle bait. He doesn't have alot of options when being juggled. For edgeguarding you can just grab the cypher when he is close and if you don't do anything, he will drop to his death when he gets out. If he is a bit farther out you can just spike him. If he is even farther just Nair him for the kill. Good Snake's will try to just recover high which means he sets himself for a juggle situation. No matter how Snake recovers Marth can take advantage of the situation. The Snake dash is also tough to deal with. To counter it you can try using SH fairs, using your counter, or shielding it and then chasing him down to punish. The key to beating Snake is to pay attention to his movements and what he does at all times. Keep him in the air to make things easier for yourself. Don't worry too much about his explosives. It's his close range game that's the real threat. He can also bring out grenades and shield so that if you attack you eat the explosion, or he can bring out a grenade and roll so he avoids you while you get hit. You can just grab or use shieldbreaker or even just space well with your attacks when he abuses shielding to drop grenades. If he rolls alot after bringing out a grenade just space your fairs then punish when he rolls or wait for the roll then punish. Also Snake has his Nikita missile for long range play and edgeguarding. Just hit it to deflect it with an attack, shield it, or roll past it.

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I don't think there is much of a trick to fighting Snake. You just have to pay attention to explosives and watch your spacing.

When juggling I use uairs to force airdodges and I will fast fall them so I recover quickly then I will do an U-smash or grab to u-throw. Either way I reset the situation. If I want to go for the kill I will definitely go for the U-smash.

Also when I play Snake I'm neither aggressive nor defensive. I do w/e the situation calls for. When I want to approach though I play it smart. I walk up slowly and usually I'm ready to shield. When I'm in f-tilt distance I will shield. 8 out of 10 they will attack you. Block it then drop your shield and go for a Dancing Blade or U-throw. Only go for a grab if you are already fairly close to Snake otherwise you won't get the grab off in time.

If you are close to Snake and you want to approach you can usually get away with a dash in to Dancing Blade. Very fast in execution and can catch people off guard. No one will be able to react to it honestly. The most they could do is predict it and shield or roll. If that happens you need to either stop your attack or delay the next hit if they shielded since they may try to attack so if you delay it and then attack you may still catch them. But that's just a guessing game.

Let me go back to talking about keeping Snake off the ledge. When Snake is on the ledge space yourself so that you are just outside the reach of his ledge attack. This way you have covered several options. You are now able to react to his normal get up, ledge attack and ledge roll.

Smart players will realize this. They will try to ledge jump airdodge. When you see Snake go into the air immediately fair him. If you are fast enough he won't be able to airdodge in time. You could also just wait for the jump and airdodge then retaliate. With proper spacing he won't be able to actually hit you so don't worry about that. As long as you are smart and patient while keeping him on the ledge you can keep him there for quite a awhile since his options are covered by you. Just don't screw up your spacing or get impatient.

Also be aware that Snake can ledge guard you just as easily. Marth's options from the ledge are very poor as well, and Snake can also space himself really well on the stage. Luckily for Marth Snake does not have the speed to really go air to air vs Marth so a ledge jump is effective in dealing with this. Still when you do a ledge jump be very careful. Do a few ledge drop double jumps so you drop and re-grab the ledge. This is just to mess with the Snake's head and throw off his timing. When you do the ledge jump you can fair, jump again, counter or airdodge. Remember your options and use them as the situation calls for them. Snakes ledgeguarding isn't quite as good as yours since he lacks your speed. Keep that in mind. But avoid rolling towards him for the ledge, as you will most likely eat an u-tilt.

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Link - Range is virtually equal in this fight, but Marth actually has slightly more range since he tends to lean in more on his attacks. The only attack Link has that has for range is his F-smash since he takes a huge step forward. He has a projectile game, but honestly it's not hard to contend with. Bombs can be shielded or caught. Arrows can be jabbed or shielded and his boomerang can be jabbed or shielded, but honestly you can just avoid it and then not worry since it doesn't hit on the way back and draws you in towards Link. You can use this to your advantage and close in on him. Just be careful since a good Link will also try to use this to catch you off guard and attack you. He does alot of damage hit per hit, but other then that he is nothing special really. Just watch your spacing and be cautious. Also when edgeguarding if he is in the middle of his up b run off and counter it. That's an easy way to get in some free damage. Also watch out for his Zair a.k.a the aerial grapple. It has no land lag when performed, but alot of range. You can usually just duck it, jump over it, or shield it and then approach. When you attack his shield, be aware that his grab is a grapple so you will have to roll away or try to stuff his grab. Also Link will often use his up b out of shield. You can block this and retaliate while he is still spinning. So if you always roll away after a blocked aerial that covers his option of grabbing you or hitting you with his up b. Then you can punish him.

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Toon Link - TL has a solid projectile game with a good moveset to back it up. Remember that you can deal with his projectile game the same as Link's. The only difference is that his boomerang hits on the way back, so you are better off just jabbing it or shielding it. His arrows travel more slowly then Link's so he can use them as walls. TL can Short Hop Double arrow. Short hop then shoot an arrow then land and shoot another one. To deal with this you shoudl dash under the high arrow, then SH over the low one. But keep in mind that TL can just SH arrow then do anything he wants, so be on your guard. At close range you have the edge due to superior range, but he has good speed and moves so be careful. He can chain his bairs for easy combos and all his smashes are good for killing. Also his throw game is solid since his d-throw sets up really well for juggles. His recovery isn't stellar though so you can gimp it pretty easily so go for those off the stage Fairs and Nairs. TL is the opposite of Link in that he doesn't do alot of damge hit for hit, but his attacks have alot of knockback which makes him a good killer. Still, you have the advantage in range so use that to keep him out and play your zoning game once you get past the projectiles. He is light so he will die early, so you don't have to worry about him living to very high percents. Be aware that you can avoid the second hit of his f-smash at higher percents, you can DI up and then jump away. Remember that his bombs do have a larger blast radius then Link's and he can throw his Boomerang at sharp angles.

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Marth- Marth is a debated matchup for Toon Link. I think it's even. Marth has tons of advantages on Toon Link, but Toon Link also has a counter for everything Marth has. To begin with, Marth is amazing. He's quick, has range, and can kill very easily. Everyone of his moves is good, so his creativity is near endless. Toon Link has advantages on Marth too though. He has his projectiles, which definitely gives Toon Link a boost, although for a character with no projectiles himself, Marth has good options vs your projectiles. Your aerial DI is a bit better than his, which is important in this matchup, as I'll discuss later on.

This matchup is going to be all about spacing. You will want to use as many projectiles as you can, however, Marth is not going to sit back and let you camp him. Rather, you may find yourself being camped by Marth. Marth has a long sword, that swings quickly. Up close, Toon Link can do nothing about this. If Marth just keeps pressuring you from close range, you'll be hard pressed to be able to hit him. You're going to want to not find openings for your sword, but instead for your projectiles. Don't bother attacking him unless you see you're sure you will connect. Instead, use retreating aerials to avoid being camped by Marth. His spacing game is absolutely amazing, so don't stay up close. Your DI should help you retreat quickly, and your arrows/bombs/boomerangs work well in racking up damage on Marth. Your projectiles won't be setting the pace of this matchup though. The control should go back and forth between players of equal skill. Also, Toon Link's great DI helps to not get camped by Marth, as you can move away quickly while firing projectiles, or you can move in quickly if you're feeling feisty. Just make sure to stay out of his range...Don't stay just out of his range, as you're likely to get tippered if you're too close. Stay out of range by a good margin if you can.

Marth can kill. Marth can kill well. Marth can kill Toon Link at ridiculously low percents. It sucks. Don't get hit. Watch out for his Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash on the ground. Tipped, they kill you easily. Marth's Dancing Blade is AMAZING. It's his quickest attack, deals around 17%, and can be used as an approach, defensive manuever, or as an out of shield attack. If you shield it, make sure to shield every hit. Do not let go of your shield vs Dancing Blade. His aerials beat yours in terms of range and speed, so don't try to beat him in the air. Your best bet, like I said, is well spaced projectiles. Just get as much space as you can and throw. Marth will kill you much easier than you can kill him, but if you can, punish his laggier attacks such as Fsmash, Dsmash and Usmash by attacking with your Usmash or Dsmash out of shield.

Marth can edgeguard you better than you can edgeguard him though. Not to say he can gay you like Meta Knight or R.O.B. can, but he can definitely jump out far and swat you away. You can harass him with projectiles, but it won't be that easy. Spiking Marth will be very difficult, so I wouldn't try it. Make sure to recover low vs Marth, as is the case vs most characters.

All in all, the matchup is even. Marth can kill you and pressure you very well, but at the same time, he can't really do THAT much vs projectiles. Marth doesn't get camped by projectiles like say, DK does, but he still has trouble vs them. Find openings and kill with strong attacks out of shield. Even 5:5.

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chillindude829 said:

lmao OS sounds like a college professor

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Ok, so this is match-up is about smart rushdown. Get in close so he can't camp you. If you block an f-tilt shield drop to Dancing Blade is in order. If you block D-smash then again it's time for a shield drop Dancing Blade. If you shield D-tilt just shield grab or up b.

When ledge guarding R.O.B it will prove difficult. His ledge attack has alot of range so you have to back away pretty far from the ledge. But you can still do it if you pay attention and just play smart. He may try to ledge camp, but if he does you can close in and fair him or shield then retaliate.

R.O.B's love to D-smash after spot dodge so always expect that. Be ready to DI it if you know you're going to take the hit.

While recovering R.O.B's like to do rising Nairs sometimes during their up b. You can counter it or just F-smash them.

You can juggle R.O.B if you want. His aerials are sluggish in comparison to yours. Also you will live to fairly high percents vs R.O.B as long as you DI correctly and space well. His kill moves while decent usually have some weakness. Usually they are a little too weak or they telegraph themselves.

When being edgeguarded, you will want to be ready to DI correctly since a laser will be coming right after you once you are off the stage. If you can airdodge and you are high up enough then I suggest you do so. Generally your up b can plow through any aerial, but a good R.O.B will Dair at same level of the ledge so you get spiked. In this case you will want to stall with a forward B before using your up b. It's just a matter of paying attention and being able to adjust your plans according to your opponents actions.

If Marth is forced to come in low and R.O.B has a gyro then R.O.B can go down and shoot the gyro to force an action. If Marth airdodges then he will probably be too low to recover. If he up b's then there is the chance R.O.B can hit him with an aerial as he comes out of his invincibility. R.O.B can really only do this when you you don't have your jump. So make sure to save it and always DI well when knocked off the stage to avoid this scenario.

If you get your hands on a gyro then glide toss that thing. Marth's glide toss is nasty and it can lead to pretty much any ground option. To deal with glide tosses you can shield then roll or up b. But if you really want to not deal with R.O.B's glide toss be sure to shield any gyro's he tosses out so they disappear. Usually a R.O.B will glide toss to grab or F-smash. Keep this in mind.

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Marth's advantages

- Heavier
- More range overall
- Greater knockback
- Slightly harder to gimp
- Has good damaging combos at low percents
- Has a death combo at low percents as well
- Faster running speed and greater mobility overall


Falco's advantages

- Camping tactics with lasers and shine
- Evasive tactics with Phantasm
- Possible CG (Can be escaped with up b)
- Possible Death combo ( Again, it can be escaped with up b)
- Good damaging combo at lower percents off of grab. ( Dash attack cancelled u-smash)
- Good Roll
- Good spot-dodge


Marth pretty much wins in all areas, except Falco has the ability to camp him. They both have grab combos on each other as well. Overall though Marth has better damage output and a better gimp game and he will generally outlive Falco.

Since Falco has lasers Marth has to approach. When Falco jumps for a SH laser dash in. You will go under the high laser and then Falco can still shoot another which most will do. If the second laser is too high you can keep closing in. Dash to shield will keep you safe from the second laser. If you block a laser you can go for a grab if you are close enough which can beat anything he tries other then rolling away. One strategy is to space yourself just outside the range of the shine. When Falco jumps for a SHL Marth can dash in and punish Falco before he can do anything after he shoots that first laser. And since the strat involves you just being outside shine range, if he DOES try to shine he will miss and he will then be at your mercy.

Speaking of shine, it's very annoying ,but not deadly or even threatening. It does a bit of damage and there is a chance it can trip, but Falco can't take advantage of it. If it's blocked Falco is screwed and you can easily get a tipper smash. Also if Falco does the shine at close range and it doesn't trip then he is at frame disadvantage so you can still punish him. Because of these reasons, good Falcos may not use shine that often, which is fine for you since the shine inhibits your approach and can be annoying. FYI you can't SH over the shine so don't try.

As far as CGing goes, it's been said before you can up b out of them. Try to wait till you see Falco run a bit for the re-grab before you up b since Falco's will try to wait that out then punish. Falco can do D-throw Dair on Marth near the ledge as a death combo. Situational yes, but it does exist. I don't think you can up b before the Dair, but you can meteor cancel it of course so if you are fast then you shouldn't die. Falco can also D-throw to DAC. That's not escapable as far as I know. Just try not to get grabbed which isn't even that hard since you outrange him.

Marth has very similar grab combos on Falco. F-throw to F-throw to Dancing Blade will do good damage. So will F-throw to F-smash. Marth can also F-throw to F-throw to Dair on Falco and there is no way Falco can survive it since his up b is terrible. Sethlon has said that Falco can't DI out of , but D1 has said it's possible. I will say that at 0%, F-throw to Dair definitely isn't escapable, but two F-throws to Dair might be.

Falco has a really good roll so when he is pressured expect him to try to get away from you. Falco is mostly going to be playing an evasive game and try to frustrate you into making stupid mistakes. Don't be fooled. Keep your calm. He has the laser, yes that is true, but Marth is the one who is in control of this fight. Marth has better options then Falco overall. Falco will also try to use his phantasm to get away. Again, keep your cool. When you see him wind up for it be ready to shield it, roll back, or f-smash him. If you shield it then close the distance quickly to reset your spacing. If you rolled back you can probably punish him.

As far as gimping him goes it's all about conditioning. You have to get him into the habit of doing something so you can take advantage of it. If he has a habit of going for the stage with Phantasm then you need to punish him repeatedly for it. Once he starts going for the ledge due to being punished you can edgehug him on recovery for easy gimps. Then he will most likely stop going for the ledge and the process repeats itself.

An easy way to punish phantasm on recovery is to just shield about three or four character lengths away from the ledge. When he goes through you release your shield and punish. It's a very safe way to punish Falco without taking any real risk.

All in all after doing alot research on the match and playing the match from both sides Marth definitely has the advantage.

The question is how much of an advantage?

60/40 sounds right, but it could even be 65/35.

Also Falco may try to approach with Nairs when you are close but you can up b him after you block since he can't outspace your range with that move.

Falco may also try SH single lasers and omit the first high laser but the dash in strategy still applies.

Overall Falco rally has no reliable close range options on Marth. Anything he tries is either outspaced or unsafe. And if he goes for a grab he takes the risk of being hit since once again Marth has the range advantage. Basically if Falco gets a hit off with a move it's because Marth screwed up his spacing or Falco just read him correctly. If Marth plays smart it's heard for Falco to get in good damage and even harder to get kills. Falco also has standing lasers but Marth can eat those while walking forward and when Falco puts his gun away Marth can close in or punish if he is close enough.

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