shrinkray21
Smash Ace
I noticed that a post about Olly in doubles has finally arisen and I think that its time that this topic get fully discussed in a proper environment. I have been thinking about doing this for a while now and I'll update this post for the next week or two with items including strats, videos, and ideas.
What I'm looking for from the community is an open ended view of what Olly can be in doubles, not simply what we already know. For a few ground rules - I'm looking at doubles for what it is viewed as by the competative community - meaning team attack is ON. Therefore, many of these strats deal with the idea that Olly can and will hurt his teammate when mistakes are made. So here we go.
Topic 1: The differences between singles and doubles for an olly
A) The first and most obvious difference is that latch is not nearly as useful as it is in singles. This is very important to note though that latch should not be discarded...ever. White pikmin should still be thrown, purples still work for recovery, and you can still do a boatload of damage from a distance. However, discretion is needed across the board for this attack and all olly players should be aware of this before embarking into doubles. The biggest advantage to latch that I have seen through personal experience is still occupying time. If your opponent hits your teammate off of the ledge and is watching him...there should be punishment in the form of pikmin being thrown at his back to occupy time and to inflict free damage.
B) Olly should not be what I refer to as the leader of the team. Olly is in the position of support. The basic concept is that doubles should not be two different singles matches taking place at one time. If you hit your opponent across the stage, your opponent should react accordingly and visa versa. Now the support role of a doubles team means that you come in for quick kills and also are the one that is trying to hold your opponent for your teammate to hit. Two quick important things to remember here, Olly has 4 very effective kill moves - 1) Upsmash sweetspot with red, yellow, purple 2) Downsmash - especially on sweetspot with all but white. 3) Upthrow with purple and 4) Back throw with blue. These moves should all be saved until one of the opponents are above 100 damage. Then you should stop your current fight and look for a quick kill move. Now with holding opponents for your teammate, remember that white, red, and yellow do area damage when you hit them during a grab, so keep track of what pikmin you did the grab with to know if you should hit your opponent and when, otherwise, simply wait for your teammate to do their move.
C) Recovery - lets face it, Olly's recovery is bad, you know it, I know it, we all know it. This is vital: DO NOT FORGET THIS. Every time you are hit off the edge, let your teammate know, every single time. If you get hit off, they should immediately engage the person that is closest to the edge to prevent edgehogging. This also means that you as an Olly player have a responsibility to keep track of your purple pikmin and stay off the edge doing stupid things(Mostly a tip for myself). Something to note here is as well is to never have two tethering opponents off the stage at the same time if possible - I don't like them on the same team but that's my opinion. Now if possible - recovery's should be done mostly higher above the stage to avoid spiking and just to avoid extended ledgegame all together...IF you are hanging on the edge, your teammate is fighting two people at once, remember that.
D) This goes to almost every character but I don't think its a bad thing to say - after you kill one of the opponets, two things should immediately happen. Firstly, you should tell your teammate. Secondly, a two on one should be initiated asap. Talk this process out beforehand with your teammate. For example, my current teammate is a Jiggly player and after one person dies, I go for a grab, while my teammate goes for sleep...every single time, and if that changes, this process should be talked through (have you noticed communication is a big theme for me :D)
More could be added here - post your opinions on this in the forum below!!
Topic 2: Basic Strats in Doubles that work with an Olly on your team
I think its important to note here that this part is different for each team, but I feel there is no reason to not have something planned out beforehand - especially - what your plan of attack is for the beginning of each match, what characters you plan to target, plan for when one opponent dies, life stealing, and endgame in a 2v1 situation.
A) Do not "split the stage". Olly needs assistance for his recovery in doubles, that's why its vital to not do the casual strat of having two singles matches going on at once. There needs to be a large amount of teamwork going on here, especially when Olly goes off the stage. My teammate and I prefer the "back to back" ideal. The goal is to have the stage break down similar to this: The x's being your opponents, y being your teammate and O being Olly
___X_____________Y___________O___________X________
Now, needless to say, this can be switched around at discretion but the reasoning for this is simple. If you or your teammate hits your opponent off stage, you can easily move to the other side, and most specifically, lets say the Olly player in the above scenerio hits his opponent left. What should immediately take place is the teammate one should head through his opponent to engage in edgegame and try to get the kill. The Olly player should go for Opponent 1 - with latch!! Aha!! Latch is useful in doubles :D. Each situation is different but you have the ability to set this scenerio up many many times in doubles if you are looking for it. This prevents 2v1 situations and allows switchoffs at will.
B) This is a repeat of 2 earlier ideas but simply - talk through how each game should start - I've found that on most stages, Olly is in range for a dash grab right as the game begins, therefore, rather than pikmin plucking as the game starts, maybe a dash grab, maybe a fair. But think this through to give your opponents something unusual to be prepared for. Also - for the grab game - remember that red, yellow, and white do an area of effect damage while you pummel during a grab. Therefore, if your teammate is near, you will hurt them too...keep an eye out for this.
C Make sure to keep track of your matchups...don't try to take on a Pikachu when you have the option of fighting a Marth...One of the reasons, I love having olly on a team is that he matches well up against some stronger characters - he fights Snake better than most characters, and he matches well up against team powerhouses Marth, Ike, DDD and so on, but that is a list that could be found somewhere else. Just remember to watch your matchups.
Also, more may be added later this week.
Topic 3: Good and Bad Teammates for Olly
This is my opinion - if you have an opinion on this matter, then by all means post in this forum...there will be no belittling here and I know that some of my opinions will be different that most, but hey, that's what the forums are for!
A) Good Teammates
If you read of the beginning of this forum, you will remember I listed Olly as a great support player in doubles, therefore, you will notice a theme. I think Olly matches up well with players who are fast moving, powerful, and good at comboing. He also can really make up for a lack of ability to kill characters if he saves his kill moves which brings us to our first teammate who is a great player with Olly:
Marth - was this ever in question? Marth's ability to combo, keep spacing, and protect the edge fit the bill of everything that Olly is looking for in a teammate. He also allows Olly to have no need to go off the stage b/c Marth can do it for him easily - he can also make up huge deficits with quick spikes and tips...If you have the chance of a Marth/Olly team, take it.
Jigglypuff - My current teammate and I have to tell you, this is a surprisingly difficult team to fight. Jiggly can chase Olly off the edge to save botched recoveries, Jiggly can sleep at will is this game and not be killed, and rollout is a great move for when Olly is holding someone. Also - no one knows how to approach this team, very often you get surprise in the first match and its very easy to win while the other team tries to adjust.
MetaKnight - This isn't my favorite matchup b/c MK has the ability to kill olly on accident with his recovery, but otherwise, a very hard group to fight...MK doesn't have to save his Dsmash which makes him really really hard to fight, and Olly simply finishing all of the kills in this matchup...the stats usually read: 6 kills olly and MK has over 500 damage.
Donkey Kong - Good matchup here but remember that your have to keep your spacing on the DK smashes and neutral b. Nothing really else to say, but the sharp contrasts here work really well together.
Lucario -
Other Notables: Ike, Luigi, Mario, Peach, Wario and Fox - the rest of this is very much open for discussion.
Bad Teammates
The theme here is that Olly has trouble with a standstill teammate or a player who is looking for the same things that Olly looks for in a good teammate.
Also open for discussion.
Pit, DDD, Snake, Falco, PT, Samus, Zamus, Link, Tink, and Zelda.
Snake
Dr. Hyde disagrees with me on the point about snake - here's what he had to say - and he knows what he's talking about!
There you have it, my opinions on Olly as a doubles partner...No I don't think he's the best teammate in the world, but I don't think that he should be forgotten...you just mostly have to think it through before embarking on the quest. Comment if you wish!!
Big P.S. - if you want me to place videos of your Olly in doubles here, I can do that, either put them in a comment, or pm them to me with permission. I will put up vids of my doubles team for examples of what I've been saying later next week.
Pit - We have another disagreement on my opinion - this one is by protoman - who made too effective of arguments to not be at least be on the front page - I still disagree with splitting the stage (see above) but protoman has his own take here.
Videos -
Team Eb's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGq7Xc8e1LE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QM81dLeStQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQaK5uacUAo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggmC6-Ng1ZI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsAjr6d0V1s
What I'm looking for from the community is an open ended view of what Olly can be in doubles, not simply what we already know. For a few ground rules - I'm looking at doubles for what it is viewed as by the competative community - meaning team attack is ON. Therefore, many of these strats deal with the idea that Olly can and will hurt his teammate when mistakes are made. So here we go.
Topic 1: The differences between singles and doubles for an olly
A) The first and most obvious difference is that latch is not nearly as useful as it is in singles. This is very important to note though that latch should not be discarded...ever. White pikmin should still be thrown, purples still work for recovery, and you can still do a boatload of damage from a distance. However, discretion is needed across the board for this attack and all olly players should be aware of this before embarking into doubles. The biggest advantage to latch that I have seen through personal experience is still occupying time. If your opponent hits your teammate off of the ledge and is watching him...there should be punishment in the form of pikmin being thrown at his back to occupy time and to inflict free damage.
B) Olly should not be what I refer to as the leader of the team. Olly is in the position of support. The basic concept is that doubles should not be two different singles matches taking place at one time. If you hit your opponent across the stage, your opponent should react accordingly and visa versa. Now the support role of a doubles team means that you come in for quick kills and also are the one that is trying to hold your opponent for your teammate to hit. Two quick important things to remember here, Olly has 4 very effective kill moves - 1) Upsmash sweetspot with red, yellow, purple 2) Downsmash - especially on sweetspot with all but white. 3) Upthrow with purple and 4) Back throw with blue. These moves should all be saved until one of the opponents are above 100 damage. Then you should stop your current fight and look for a quick kill move. Now with holding opponents for your teammate, remember that white, red, and yellow do area damage when you hit them during a grab, so keep track of what pikmin you did the grab with to know if you should hit your opponent and when, otherwise, simply wait for your teammate to do their move.
C) Recovery - lets face it, Olly's recovery is bad, you know it, I know it, we all know it. This is vital: DO NOT FORGET THIS. Every time you are hit off the edge, let your teammate know, every single time. If you get hit off, they should immediately engage the person that is closest to the edge to prevent edgehogging. This also means that you as an Olly player have a responsibility to keep track of your purple pikmin and stay off the edge doing stupid things(Mostly a tip for myself). Something to note here is as well is to never have two tethering opponents off the stage at the same time if possible - I don't like them on the same team but that's my opinion. Now if possible - recovery's should be done mostly higher above the stage to avoid spiking and just to avoid extended ledgegame all together...IF you are hanging on the edge, your teammate is fighting two people at once, remember that.
D) This goes to almost every character but I don't think its a bad thing to say - after you kill one of the opponets, two things should immediately happen. Firstly, you should tell your teammate. Secondly, a two on one should be initiated asap. Talk this process out beforehand with your teammate. For example, my current teammate is a Jiggly player and after one person dies, I go for a grab, while my teammate goes for sleep...every single time, and if that changes, this process should be talked through (have you noticed communication is a big theme for me :D)
More could be added here - post your opinions on this in the forum below!!
Topic 2: Basic Strats in Doubles that work with an Olly on your team
I think its important to note here that this part is different for each team, but I feel there is no reason to not have something planned out beforehand - especially - what your plan of attack is for the beginning of each match, what characters you plan to target, plan for when one opponent dies, life stealing, and endgame in a 2v1 situation.
A) Do not "split the stage". Olly needs assistance for his recovery in doubles, that's why its vital to not do the casual strat of having two singles matches going on at once. There needs to be a large amount of teamwork going on here, especially when Olly goes off the stage. My teammate and I prefer the "back to back" ideal. The goal is to have the stage break down similar to this: The x's being your opponents, y being your teammate and O being Olly
___X_____________Y___________O___________X________
Now, needless to say, this can be switched around at discretion but the reasoning for this is simple. If you or your teammate hits your opponent off stage, you can easily move to the other side, and most specifically, lets say the Olly player in the above scenerio hits his opponent left. What should immediately take place is the teammate one should head through his opponent to engage in edgegame and try to get the kill. The Olly player should go for Opponent 1 - with latch!! Aha!! Latch is useful in doubles :D. Each situation is different but you have the ability to set this scenerio up many many times in doubles if you are looking for it. This prevents 2v1 situations and allows switchoffs at will.
B) This is a repeat of 2 earlier ideas but simply - talk through how each game should start - I've found that on most stages, Olly is in range for a dash grab right as the game begins, therefore, rather than pikmin plucking as the game starts, maybe a dash grab, maybe a fair. But think this through to give your opponents something unusual to be prepared for. Also - for the grab game - remember that red, yellow, and white do an area of effect damage while you pummel during a grab. Therefore, if your teammate is near, you will hurt them too...keep an eye out for this.
C Make sure to keep track of your matchups...don't try to take on a Pikachu when you have the option of fighting a Marth...One of the reasons, I love having olly on a team is that he matches well up against some stronger characters - he fights Snake better than most characters, and he matches well up against team powerhouses Marth, Ike, DDD and so on, but that is a list that could be found somewhere else. Just remember to watch your matchups.
Also, more may be added later this week.
Topic 3: Good and Bad Teammates for Olly
This is my opinion - if you have an opinion on this matter, then by all means post in this forum...there will be no belittling here and I know that some of my opinions will be different that most, but hey, that's what the forums are for!
A) Good Teammates
If you read of the beginning of this forum, you will remember I listed Olly as a great support player in doubles, therefore, you will notice a theme. I think Olly matches up well with players who are fast moving, powerful, and good at comboing. He also can really make up for a lack of ability to kill characters if he saves his kill moves which brings us to our first teammate who is a great player with Olly:
Marth - was this ever in question? Marth's ability to combo, keep spacing, and protect the edge fit the bill of everything that Olly is looking for in a teammate. He also allows Olly to have no need to go off the stage b/c Marth can do it for him easily - he can also make up huge deficits with quick spikes and tips...If you have the chance of a Marth/Olly team, take it.
Jigglypuff - My current teammate and I have to tell you, this is a surprisingly difficult team to fight. Jiggly can chase Olly off the edge to save botched recoveries, Jiggly can sleep at will is this game and not be killed, and rollout is a great move for when Olly is holding someone. Also - no one knows how to approach this team, very often you get surprise in the first match and its very easy to win while the other team tries to adjust.
MetaKnight - This isn't my favorite matchup b/c MK has the ability to kill olly on accident with his recovery, but otherwise, a very hard group to fight...MK doesn't have to save his Dsmash which makes him really really hard to fight, and Olly simply finishing all of the kills in this matchup...the stats usually read: 6 kills olly and MK has over 500 damage.
Donkey Kong - Good matchup here but remember that your have to keep your spacing on the DK smashes and neutral b. Nothing really else to say, but the sharp contrasts here work really well together.
Lucario -
Game and Watch -
Captain Falcon -I've tried an Oli/ G&W combo and found it pretty effective.. Here's a few reasons why..
* G&W can save your recovery by blowing you upwards with his U-air.. (situational but effective)
* Combos such as a well timed U-air by Oli and a credit card or turtle by G&W can rack up some serious dmg..
* Setups from Oli grabs throwing into a G&W key or flame..
* Flame and F-smash connecting an opponent at once..
* G&W has good mind games and great moves that can compliment Oli fairly well allowing him to control the mid whilst G&W keeps the sides well guarded to prevent Oli getting edged..
These are a few suggestions and some things i've seen work but unfortunately have no videos to prove..
Other Notables: Ike, Luigi, Mario, Peach, Wario and Fox - the rest of this is very much open for discussion.
Bad Teammates
The theme here is that Olly has trouble with a standstill teammate or a player who is looking for the same things that Olly looks for in a good teammate.
Also open for discussion.
Pit, DDD, Snake, Falco, PT, Samus, Zamus, Link, Tink, and Zelda.
Snake
Dr. Hyde disagrees with me on the point about snake - here's what he had to say - and he knows what he's talking about!
You will notice that not all characters are listed, this is on purpose as some characters fit right into the middle...but once again, looking for discussion here.
There you have it, my opinions on Olly as a doubles partner...No I don't think he's the best teammate in the world, but I don't think that he should be forgotten...you just mostly have to think it through before embarking on the quest. Comment if you wish!!
Big P.S. - if you want me to place videos of your Olly in doubles here, I can do that, either put them in a comment, or pm them to me with permission. I will put up vids of my doubles team for examples of what I've been saying later next week.
Pit - We have another disagreement on my opinion - this one is by protoman - who made too effective of arguments to not be at least be on the front page - I still disagree with splitting the stage (see above) but protoman has his own take here.
Videos -
Team Eb's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGq7Xc8e1LE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QM81dLeStQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQaK5uacUAo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggmC6-Ng1ZI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsAjr6d0V1s
, finally - Edgehogging (nuff said)...
