R.O.B.'s best & worst match ups.

I'd like to see some opinions (I'll post mine later)

i'd have to say rob is bad against ike....i use toon link for that. i'm pretty covered.

I think i'll give my basic ideas of the matchup based on a +, -, ? or =

i'll post my reasoning later...

Bowser
+

Captain Falcon
=

Diddy Kong
++

Donkey Kong
+

Falco
=

Fox
-------

Game & Watch
-

Ganondorf
++

Ice Climbers
?

Ike
+

Jigglypuff
=

King Dedede
=

Kirby
+

Link
++

Lucario
=

Lucas
?

Luigi
=/-

Mario
=

Marth
+

Meta Knight
--------------

Ness
?

Peach
=

Pikachu
+

Pikmin & Olimar
??

Pit
+++++

Pokémon Trainer
?

R.O.B.
= [lol]

Samus
+

Sheik
=

Snake
=/-

Sonic
+

Toon Link
-

Wario
++

Wolf
+

Yoshi
+

Zelda
=

Zero Suit Samus
-

Reserved for more space later.

the eskimos is deff a ++ rob's projectiles & dsmash trumps nearly everything they have

How the hell does ROB go even with Lucario and CF, but has advantage on Marth and has massive disadvantage to MK.

Explain plz.

LOL@ ROB going even with Peach.

I think he has advantage on her easily.

Emblem Lord said:

How the hell does ROB go even with Lucario and CF, but has advantage on Marth and has massive disadvantage to MK.

Explain plz.

LOL@ ROB going even with Peach.

I think he has advantage on her easily.

Click to expand...

Its really very simple.. and most of it is based on the nature of the aforementioned toons, and their recoveries/combo styles...

Lucario's recovery is so EASILY gimped by ROB it is almost a joke to watch a Lucario "attempt" to get himself back onto the stage.. however getting him off the stage is the difficult part. Without enough damage on Lucario, ROB [obiously] cannot knock him off the stage, unless you use your high knockback moves [such as Bair, Gyro, and Lazer (phase 3 of course)].. it is also very difficult for ROB to "combo" Lucario due to ROB's combo's generally coming from the front/back/below... and Lucario's Dair is THE BEST combo breaker in the game..

The above is somewhat true for MK as well.. except his recovery cannot be easily gimped, and if he gets behind ROB, or below him ROB cannot very well escape the combo, b/c his Dair/Bair have too much startup lag inorder to interrupt this ridiculousness. He is also very difficult for ROB to combo as well, and unless ROB's Gyro hits MK's tornado perfectly its very impossible for MK's gaynado to be stopped.. and generally speaking lazers don't help much either due to the start up lag.. [then again you can kindof tell when an MK is getting ready to gaynado you, but you really have to anticipate this w/ ROB, otherwise you can't disrupt it].

Falcon is [to be honest] almost a ? w/ me, but i have played several skilled Falcons which were most certainly tournament viable. This being said, since ROB is such a LARGE target it is quite simple for him to be combo'd off the stage via grabs n' such.. however once the Falcon is off the stage the fight is basically over for "the good olde captain".. its also relativly easy for the ROB player to combo the Falcon as well, BUT it is MUCH easier to be caught in a Falcon combo, in comparison to performing them... kindof like Peach Vs. Fox/Falco in melee... she could mess them up just as well as they could mess her up, but getting them off the stage was something different entirely >_>

As for Marth.. ROB and Marth share a similar range for their Fair and thus Marth cannot space tremendously well, and "camp" the ROB in the air.. Marth is also EXTREMELY easy to combo for ROB, and his [Marth's] recovery has quite nerfed in Brawl [in comparison to melee]... so [again] once Marth is off the stage, he really doesn't stand a contention of returning to the stage.

Come down to Va, and i'll show you.

Peach.. aww good olde Peach... i cannot truely say that any of the Peach's [minis Kirbstir's and Doll's] were very good, however from what i could tell [given this was very recently after Brawl was released] Peach's recovery is not easily gimped [aka ROB's bigest part of his game is gone] and she is alittle faster in the air in comparison to him... ROB can however outspam Peach which basically means the fight will go on for A VERY LONG time, and the ROB should win [if the player has a brain at all] however the Peach can still do come nasty Uair/Bair/Dair combos on ROB.. I guess you could compare this matchup to melee as a Peach Vs. Jiggs... Peach being Jiggs [who can combo and last against Peach but dies easier], and Peach being ROB [who spams like a *****, and has ALOT of kill moves].. its an uphill battle for the Peach, but both of them live FOREVER.. i guess now that i think about it, it's probably in ROB's favor... but only slightly.

more to come later.

Good Day Sir.

You seem to basing most of your match-up analysis on gimping.

CF is no match for ROB. Let's just get that out of the way. He is trash. So is Peach for that matter, but to a lesser extent.

ROB combos Marth? With what? U-tilts? Other then that wtf are you talking about? No seriously, since I play ROB too I wanna know about some combos that he can do.

How come you aren't talking about ground game, aeriels, approaches, priority, killing power and weight?

You are only looking at two factors. Do you really think you can come up with accurate match-up analysis this way?

MK has huge advantage because he is hard to gimp? Are you serious?

Marth is at disadvantage because he is easy to gimp in comparison to other characters?

Also you say the word combo alot. Are these real combos or just set-ups that can be airdodged through. Eh, w/e. I play all of the characters you mentioned, but since I am a Marth player first and foremost I will argue for him. Marth vs ROB is 50/50 IMO. ROB can camp, gimp recoveries well and he outranges Marth. But on the downside his close range options aren't as good and his kill moves kinda suck. He has to rely almost exclusively on gimping to get a kill off. Also his attacks are kinda weak. His f-tilt and d-tilt which outrange Marth's moves do 6% and 3% respectively. That's kinda...low >_> Now Marth has better options at close range, is stronger overall and has alot of kill moves and they all kick *** and he is also good at gimping recoveries. Also I very much doubt that ROB can combo Marth better then Marth can combo ROB. I mean...it's Marth. Fair to Dancing Blade anyone?How about d-tilt to d-tilt to dancing blade?

Also Marth can rushdown on ROB hard and still be fairly safe. D-tilt and fairs are almost impossible to punish when well spaced. Marth can't really camp ROB, but he can still attack him without too much fear. So yeah, it's even in my book. ROB can camp and he can gimp well and Marth is just a killing machine with great options, good rush down, and safe moves. Also Marth can gimp ROB too, but ROB has to be at slightly higher percent then Marth would have to be for ROB to gimp him. One tipper fair of the side at 60 or higher and ROB is pretty much done.

I must admit I have trouble fighting zelda. It is fairly easy to space a forward/back air on ROB. Her upsmash also fairly easily comes in contact and stays out a very long time. A well palyed zelda does make it hard to approach. When using a campy playstyle zelda also fairs well as a campy character.

Well sir.. I didn't really plan to go into an in-depth analysis of each matchup b/c well.. that would take me quite some time so i chose to stick to 2 important variables...

However if that is what you were aiming at I think i can address that quite well for you sir.

First off.. When you say Falcon, and Peach are basically trash if makes me believe that you are STILL in a melee mindset.. ie- "lower tier" toons are NOT viable in any fashion in comparison to a higher tier character played extremely well... however in Brawl this idea no longer stands are viable reasoning.. for the sheer fact that you CAN airdodge out of combos.. DI is less important, and toons last MUCH longer.. you cannot [any longer] 0-death characters like you used to be able to, and the current "top tier" characters do not blatantly counter the currently standing lower tier. This being said [ATM] i believe it is possible for [within reason] any character to beat any other character if said character is played well [and this isn't mindgame dependent either.. if you've noticed many combos work on a large spectrum of toons where they didn't in melee].

Peach, and Falcon are not trash my good sir.. they are just different. Look at Falco... he has changed SIGNIFICANTLY, but he's still top tier on Japan's current list... why? i mean.. doesn't he have some horse**** recovery.. well this doesn't really matter w/ his new moveset does it? Peach and Falcon however have retained many of their old tricks but they were slightly nerfed... but players continue to approach them in a similar fashion to the way they would play melee... THIS IS WRONG.

Brawl is a new game, with new mindgames, and a brandnew playstyle. Fricking Game and Watch is practically top tier now!! anything is possible ;p


You were also were inquiring what ROB can use to combo Marth.. well like i stated earlier [how many combos that toons have now are basically universal..] Utilts-->Uair, Fair-->Fair->Fair-->ect, Jab-->Jab-->Ftilt-->DashAtk, he can pull off a stairway to heaven, Uthrow keeps him quite low too... ofcourse you can basically link your lazer/gyro to any of these as well... of yeah.. ROB's Dash atk is fricking amazing @ initiating combos.. keep that in mind when i change are you when we play....


Also.. I continually see people "claiming" that you can supposedly airdodge out of combos, but from what i've seen, done, and played due to the new nature of airdodging [how your momentum maintains in your current direction] they don't really break combos UNLESS your opponent is a fricking moron.


You sir also say that Marth is 50/50, but i have to quite strongly disagree.. sure Marth has quite afew kill moves but if the ROB has a brain they also know that a well played gyro on the ground can break low level Ariel combos, and assist you in starting some combos of your own.. ROB's Jab is also retardedly quick, and it is EXTREMELY useful for forcing opponents back into a Dtilt/Ftilt of your own, and then a SH'd double Fair is all it takes to sweep your Marth off their feet <(^_^)b don't get me wrong Mr Lord.. you are an excellent player... but i have yet to see this fail. ROB's Jabs+Brawl=Broken on another note.. the way Marth approaches and the way an ROB player would space, spam, and play against a Marth player would never allow you to combo him from the BACK, and therefore a simple Fair would [very quickly] disrupt any chance you had of doing any significant amount of damage. You also CLAIMED that ROB lacked "kill moves" in comparison to Marth.. well sure.... not every single one of my moves is laced w/ a deadly "tipper", but if you ACTUALLY played ROB you would know his Nair kills most middle weight toons are 120+, his Dair [if by an edge] can kill @ 80+ [even lower based on DI], his Usmash should be banned from tourneys, his Dsmash [ok, ok maybe if you're at 180+ ;p], but his Gyro/Lazer EXTREMELY low %'s, and of course his ever faithful Fsmash... so you are [relatively speaking sir] incorrect

I also have YET to be gimped.. EVER by a Marth as ROB.. unless you mean to say [and this of course is theoredical] I'm flying around near the VERY bottow of the stage [b/c ROB basically has infinite vertical recovery.. and horizontal if i might add] and you're at 812% [b/c i have no kills moves as ROB >_> ] and then DairSpike me, killing yourself, and my sweet little Robot Buddy in the process... OK gg.

So i very much doubt [even an extremely skilled player such as yourself] could sucessfully gimp a SKILLED rob.. NJ clearly needs to stop worshiping M2K and not play Marth or DDD ;p


Lastly me thinks i shall adress your point about MK..


"MK has huge advantage because he is hard to gimp?"

-You are correct sir..

"Are you serious?"

-Im always serious.. just look at this thread -->

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161345

More on MK later.. for now i am quite tired... i must remind you sir.. even legends sleep.. we just don't dream.... thats for people like you that wish you were us.


Good Evening Sir.

Don't ever affiliate me with M2K ever again. I consider it an insult.

Also Peach and CF are trash. CF more so then Peach. No priority, plus crappy kill moves or lack there of does not a good brawler make. Falco is different and he *****. CF and Peach aren't really different. They just suck.

ROB's kill moves are easy to see coming since he freezes before he does them aside from his f-smash. They aren't anything to write home about.Also I do play ROB and I know he has some easy chains on the ground, but air combos are pretty non-existent. You airdodge and you are out of the combo. Case closed. Now you can bait an airdodge and then retaliate, but that is something else entirely.

ROB's gyro can be used against him and his laser can't be spammed so his camping is limited. Double fair from ROB? Marth can counter or just airdodge. Nope. I won't take any of that aircombo nonsense seriously. Also Marth's fair beats ROB so how can ROB fair Marth back when Marth spaces well?

And what happens when Marth closes? Who has better close range options? Marth does. And Marth can attack ROB pretty easily without fear as I said. You really didn't counter many of my points. All you said was that YOU have never been gimped by Marth. Ok? This means what? Personal experience is moot. Data and the best known strats is the only thing that matters in match-up analysis. The only time personal experience matters is when you discover something new or you are exposed to an enemy tactic.

Also even if Marth doesn't gimp ROB the added damage is a welcome bonus.

Alot of my points still stand. ROB is weak and does little damage while Marth racks up damage easily. ROB has a harder time killing while Marth has aplethora of good kill moves. Also Marth has a more solid moveset overall. He has better close range options as well. ROB gimps better and has some camping and can outspace Marth. Marth is safer, racks up damage faster, kills sooner, and has better options.

Still looks like 50/50 to me.

To start; I do apologize about implying a connection between you and M2K.. however you ARE part of "The Smash AFFILIATES"... but i too feel similarly about M2K as you do.

That being said.. let us continue...

Well sir, as I do consider myself one of the premier ROB players in the US [OverSwarm being another fine player] MY personal experience probably matters a great deal in comparison to that of others... its like comparing high level IC play during the time of melee's reign, and not taking Chu's option's very wholeheartedly... granted the level of play which we are used to is somewhat differing from the common smasher's but it does [a significant amount of the time] hold up in tourneys.

On the topic of Falcon and Peach.. we shall just have to agree to disagree... for now.

I do however think we both can agree that Sonic couldn't brawl his way out of a paper bag <(^_^)b


You sir claim that ROB's killmoves have a large amount of startup lag and that you can see them coming based on ROB's approach... and this sir is TRUE.. with EVERY character >_> however it is in the startup lag that gives ROB's moves such uniqueness and power.. he can really attack from any position [not always sucessfullly ;p] and if you reverse dash so you are moving toward your opponent w/ your back facing them... what is the difference in timing between a reverse Nair, and a Bair... quite a bit actually. Also, even if you get your shield up in time, SideStep, Airdodge, or Roll.. much of ROB's moveset has large disjointed hitboxes, and lasts for an extremely long amount of time... So predictions or not, we both have to admit that ROB is top tier on Japan's list for a reason.. he CAN kill.. he CAN gimp.. and his recovery IS rediculous.

You also claimed that ROB's aircombo's are non-existant.. but sir based on how you hit your opponent, [assuming that your opponent uses airdodge in Brawl the way that it should be] you need should know to anticipate an airdodge, and hit them w/ your Fair [as ROB] just below their knees [on the Marth] this will prevent airdodging, and if they do, you can always perform a falling Uair. Also, please watch a match between myself, and Candy's Wolf. You will note that Utilt-->Utilt-->Utilt-->Uair-->Uair-->Nair/Bair is quite effective.. than again you CAN swap out the last bit there for some mindgamey lazers or Gyros but meh.. personal choices define us all... ROB's Uair is also [like many of his moves] not short lived, and not very punishable [i mean.. not without WaveDashing ;p] so if you're being Uair'd to death.. im using my UpB to "Stair Way to Heaven" you, how to you expect to airdodge your way out of that one?

Against Marths that like to Counter [it seems to be alot these days due to the nature of the game] you can generally airdodge through them [assuming you're actually good enough to see it coming, (much like ROB's "kill moves")] and perform a Dsmash.. also, if you are countering, whilst i am comboing you, then clearly I AM doing something wrong sir. And Mr Lord.. any ROB can spam a lazer.. yes! there is a CD on it, and you do have to wait inbetween shots... but that's what nintendo invented HoverCancelled Nairs for silly *shakes head*

CloseRange combat.. Sir just because Marth has a big knife doesn't mean he is AUTOMATICALLY better in reguards to close range in comparison to ROB... Marth's "jab" is slower, and his tilts have startup lag on the ground just as ROB's aerials do... however in the air, [which is a very large difference] has more Range and Mobility... which i would take anyday over What Marth has... a Big Strong Tip [no homo]. I guess it's like the difference between a tank, and a sniper rifle... except Marth is the tank.. and ROB just killed your driver =0

Also can you explain to me exactly how Marth has better close range options... i cannot continue to debate w/ you about the [obvious] merits of ROB without some more input from a fine debater such as yourself.


Lastly you say "ROB is weak"... are you kidding me... ROB is one of the greatest comboers in the game! Sir.. i have a question for you.. have you ever been "Ken Combo'd" by an ROB... come to Va and ill show you. Also, many of his moves have EXTREMELY powerful knockback, and the one's that don't combo very well into each other... and if Marth is comboing you, and he gets a tip in there... sure it's more damage... but you're out of that combo, and ROB is CLEARLY getting back onto the stage.... assuming he survives of course [which he always does]. I also respectfully disagree w/ your point about ROB having a harder time of killing ROB... ROB can gimp Marth.. something Marth is incapable of reciprocating on ROB. And Marth is VERY easy to edgeguard now. It seems that your ENTIRE argument is based around Marth having "incredible" tippers, and being a combo king.

also note- "Marth is safer, racks up damage faster, kills sooner, and has better options".

Marth is not safer.. ROB is. Camping>CloseRange... what can Marth do to ROB if he is @ 110 and the ROB is @ 20? and i quote--> "ROB gimps better and has some camping and can outspace Marth"... out space Marth.. Camping.. these both seem quite "safe" to me... where as Marth HAS to be in your face inorder to perform any action against his opponent.

Racks up damage faster.. i still disagree sir... this point will not be won by either of us anytime soon.

Kills sooner.. depends entirely on gimpage, and comboing.. Marth relies on Tips.. i'll give this particular attribute a = for now..

Better Options.. hmm... please compare the difference between ROB's options and Marth's.. b/c from where i'm sitting.. Marth is forced into a very predictable approach and a lack of Ariel options.. where many of ROB's moveset, can just as easily be replaced by another one of his moves making him.... VERY UNPREDICTABLE.

I await your well worded response.

Good Day Sir.

wow! this is fun to read lol

ipitydatfu said:

wow! this is fun to read lol

Click to expand...

This.


I'm just gonna throw this out there...

Sudai thinks Marth is a rather easy match up as ROB. I won't give reasons as I don't have the time to get into the debate too, and Chosen has covered most of the points I'd make.

Anyway... ROB > Marth. No doubt in my mind. All it takes is one grab near the edge and Marth should very well be dead..Since no one mentioned that one. >>;

...About the Marth v ROB debate. I think it really depends on how ROB is played.

As far as Marth is concerned, there's only one effective way to play him from what I've seen, super offensively with counters mixed in when he's in trouble.

But ROB can be played agressively (to an extent) and defensively. A well placed gyro will essentially negate Marth's approach. Pin a Marth (or any char) between the gryo and Rob's jabs, you are guaranteed around 30% damage. There are several more reasons, most of which have been touched upon, but in my opinion, A defensive, campy, 'capitalize on mistakes' played ROB will dispatch any Marth with relative ease.

to go ahead and touch on Marth vs. ROB...

Kel's Marth has come very close to gimping me multiple times. He hasn't been focusing on his marth, but I assure you that the possibility is there. Marth has to go real deep for them, but he CAN do it. Considering that ROB nearly always is forced to go for the ledge when he is below the stage, he is also set up for an easy dair. Marth can gimp ROB, which makes him the ONLY character I have ever feared when recovering.

Also, there are combos. Air dodging doesn't even stop ROB combos because you can't change your momentum; ROB can follow you with an up-air easily.


Here are my basic thoughts on matchups, using +, -, and =. These are very general terms, but you get the idea. + means ROB has an advantage, - means a disadvantage, = means it is close enough.

---------

Bowser +
Captain Falcon +
Diddy Kong +
Donkey Kong =
Falco =
Fox +
Game & Watch -
Ganondorf +
Ice Climbers +
Ike +
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby -
Link +
Lucario +
Lucas +
Luigi +
Mario +
Marth =
Meta Knight -
Ness +
Peach -
Pikachu =
Pikmin & Olimar =
Pit =
Pokémon Trainer: Squirtle -
Pokémon Trainer: Ivysaur =
Pokémon Trainer: Charizard +
ROB =
Samus +
Sheik +
Snake =
Sonic =
Toon Link =
Wario +
Wolf +
Yoshi =
Zelda -
Zero Suit Samus +



Feel free to ask me to elaborate; a lot of these are based off limited experience, as one could imagine, so don't take the list to heart if you are a ROB main and just looking to see what you'll find easy or hard.

I mean, if you airdodge through Marth can do the same thing really. His fair recovers fast enough that when his opponent tries to airdodge and they are above him he can just fast fall and hit them. Air-combos don't exist unless you are Lucario. If you force and airoddge and then hit them anyway, that's jsut baiting an airdodge.

ROB's kill moves don't have HUGE start-up. But he does freeze in place for about a split second, which can give a good opponent time to react. Which is why ROB relys on gimping. Hit for hit ROB is fairly weak overall. I already said that f-tilt does 6% and d-tilt does 3%. Which also goes back to his close range options. Marth's are better and you wanted proof. Marth has his up B which is invincible on the first 5 frames, comes out on frame 1, and it can kill around 140 to 150 ish depending on his opponent's weight. Marth has his Dancing Blade which can do anywhere between 16% to 21% AND all 4 attacks count towards attack regeneration. Dancing Blade is etremely fast, but everyone in the smash community knows that at this point. And of coure he has all his powerful smashes at close range as well. ROB has his tilts which are weak, his f-smash which is solid and his d-smash which can be easily DIed out of. Marth win's at close range.

Also Marth can attack ROB safely since he can SH fair and then DI back to stay safe or just abuse his d-tilt cancel to stay safe. I'm not saying ROB can't hit Marth. I'm saying Marth has the tools to stage an offense without putting himself into danger.

Also if you are trying to combo in the air , then why can't I hit you? Also aircomboing Marth can be hard since Shieldbreaker increases his momentum and pushes him forward. So this way he can mess with his opponents spacing and timing. Your not doing anything wrong if Marth counters between your combos. The Brawl engine denies your combo and Marth is taking advantage of it. That is all.

And about Marth's approach. I mean honestly, if ROB can just camp Marth then why can't the same be said of MK. Well, MK can rushdown and still be safe. Marth can do the same. He can rush down mainly with Dancing Blade and d-tilts to stay safe. DB is less safe but racks up more damage. D-tilt is safer and more of a pressure tool. And I already talked about Marth's SH fair.

Overall I will say that Marth is better overall, but ROB has better gimping, recovery, and camping.

Also that japanese list changes on a weekly basis. It's not an actualy tier list. Just a weekly ranking list. Don't take it too seriosusly.

Also it looks like Oversmarm agrees with me. I would love to hear your reasoning.

Emblem Lord said:

I mean, if you airdodge through Marth can do the same thing really. His fair recovers fast enough that when his opponent tries to airdodge and they are above him he can just fast fall and hit them. Air-combos don't exist unless you are Lucario. If you force and airoddge and then hit them anyway, that's jsut baiting an airdodge.

ROB's kill moves don't have HUGE start-up. But he does freeze in place for about a split second, which can give a good opponent time to react. Which is why ROB relys on gimping. Hit for hit ROB is fairly weak overall. I already said that f-tilt does 6% and d-tilt does 3%. Which also goes back to his close range options. Marth's are better and you wanted proof. Marth has his up B which is invincible on the first 5 frames, comes out on frame 1, and it can kill around 140 to 150 ish depending on his opponent's weight. Marth has his Dancing Blade which can do anywhere between 16% to 21% AND all 4 attacks count towards attack regeneration. Dancing Blade is etremely fast, but everyone in the smash community knows that at this point. And of coure he has all his powerful smashes at close range as well. ROB has his tilts which are weak, his f-smash which is solid and his d-smash which can be easily DIed out of. Marth win's at close range.

Click to expand...

ROB wins in close range because the only time ROB will be in close range is when he is going to grab Marth and throw him away

Also Marth can attack ROB safely since he can SH fair and then DI back to stay safe or just abuse his d-tilt cancel to stay safe. I'm not saying ROB can't hit Marth. I'm saying Marth has the tools to stage an offense without putting himself into danger.

Click to expand...

I have one word to any Marth that goes in and out with his fair while thinking he is safe:

Projectiles.

And about Marth's approach. I mean honestly, if ROB can just camp Marth then why can't the same be said of MK. Well, MK can rushdown and still be safe. Marth can do the same. He can rush down mainly with Dancing Blade and d-tilts to stay safe. DB is less safe but racks up more damage. D-tilt is safer and more of a pressure tool. And I already talked about Marth's SH fair.

Click to expand...

MK has a better aerial game than Marth. Marth gets decimated by ROB in the air unless he is approaching ROB from the back or from below, which rarely happens. ROB can combo Marth easily.

Overall I will say that Marth is better overall, but ROB has better gimping, recovery, and camping.

Click to expand...

The matchup is even, but not for any of the reasons you describe. I believe the matchup is even because Marth has good damage dealing attacks and the ability to gimp ROB as well as avoid gimps FROM ROB. Most characters, if they can be gimped, can't avoid it if ROB plays well. Marth, with his counter and good DI, can get out of any possible gimp. This forces ROB to attack for damage and edgeguard Marth with a laser and other such things.

The fact that Marth can gimp ROB is huge, and this is accented by the fact that Marth, with his up+b out of shield, has a good KO move at lower %. Marth goes even with ROB because they can both kill each other at approximately the same rate, although ROB has to shoot a lot more projectiles to rack up the %.

If I had to put money on someone, I'd put it on ROB though.

The reasons you listed wouldn't be enough. How the hell would Marth get ROB off the stage to gimp him if ROB beats anything at close range that Marth has?

Logic error.

Also ROB's laser has a bit of start up time. If Marth is already close then how is ROB gonna laser him? How is MK's aerial game better? It's better for gimping Marth's is better for outright killing and Marth's aerials are stronger. They do different things.

Good spacing with Marth allows him to avoid getting grabbed, since he is outside of grab range, but still be able to avoid ROB's tilts thanks to DI on his SH or cancelling the d-tilt. Also after a SH fair Marth can airdodge. So how can he be hit with a laser? SH Fair DI back airdodge.

Saying that ROB will always be able to throw Marth away is just silly. I mean I could just say that Marth can use Dolphin slash or Dancing Blade to stuff any throw attempt. I don't like hypotheticals. I like data and evidence. Overall Marth is better at close range.

Emblem Lord said:

The reasons you listed wouldn't be enough. How the hell would Marth get ROB off the stage to gimp him if ROB beats anything at close range that Marth has?

Logic error.

Click to expand...

You're working in absolutes.

ROB has a better close range game than Marth because ROB controls when this close range game occurs. WHEN Marth gets inside, he generally knocks ROB off the stage. Marth doesn't combo as well as he just hits people around, and once ROB is off the edge he is in danger.

Also ROB's laser has a bit of start up time. If Marth is already close then how is ROB gonna laser him? How is MK's aerial game better? It's better for gimping Marth's is better for outright killing and Marth's aerials are stronger. They do different things.

Click to expand...

Marth's aerials do not kill ROB.

MK's aerials damage ROB enough to where he can kill him.

Also... have you played a ROB? Hitting anything or anyone with a laser is not exactly the most difficult of tasks.

Good spacing with Marth allows him to avoid getting grabbed, since he is outside of grab range, but still be able to avoid ROB's tilts thanks to DI on his SH or cancelling the d-tilt. Also after a SH fair Marth can airdodge. So how can he be hit with a laser? SH Fair DI back airdodge.

Click to expand...

Wow, you have an answer to everything.

Too bad it doesn't work and you can't hit ROB's shield and land out of range of his f-tilt >_>

Saying that ROB will always be able to throw Marth away is just silly. I mean I could just say that Marth can use Dolphin slash or Dancing Blade to stuff any throw attempt. I don't like hypotheticals. I like data and evidence. Overall Marth is better at close range.

Click to expand...

Your entire post is hypotheticals.

ROB controls when Marth gets inside. Because of this, his defensive options are greater; the best and most obvious choice is to throw marth, which isn't difficult.

oooo you got served!

But seriously, you guys need to throw down and record some matches.

JCaesar007 said:

oooo you got served!

But seriously, you guys need to throw down and record some matches.

Click to expand...

I'd happily do so, but my computer is broken so it is a mite difficult to organize these things. I'm at work right now


Anyone can come up to NKU if they want to play though, I'm a big fan of money matches

Just because you control space doesn't mean you have better close range options.

Marth outranged Shiek and Fox in melee, but they clearly had better options at close range.

I agree that Marth and ROB go even but your reasoning makes no sense to me. Honestly with your reasoning ROB demolishes Marth, since you speak like ROB just shuts him down but then you say they go even which makes no sense.

Close range options is just how effective your moves are at close range and what tools you have to work with. Marth wins at close range. There is no disuputing this. He has more to work with and better moves overall.

Marth's aerials can't kill ROB? That's just...silly. Why wouldn't they be able to kill him exactly? All of Marth's aerials have good knockback so what are you talking about?

Look over what you said again and tell me that makes sense. Basically you are saying that Marth goes even with a character that completely shuts him down according to you and the only thing that Marth can do is edgeguard ROB effectively.

This is completely illogical. So either you have to acknowledge what I'm saying is right, or you have to say that ROB ***** Marth.

Now I think its obvious that ROB does't **** Marth. So then you have to go back and take into account the things I said because that is the ONLY way Math goes even with ROB. Being able to get ROB off the stage and gimp him isn't enough when ROB outranges him and according to you combos the **** out of him, and has better options then him.

Emblem Lord said:

Just because you control space doesn't mean you have better close range options.

Marth outranged Shiek and Fox in melee, but they clearly had better options at close range.

I agree that Marth and ROB go even but your reasoning makes no sense to me. Honestly with your reasoning ROB demolishes Marth, since you speak like ROB just shuts him down but then you say they go even which makes no sense.

Close range options is just how effective your moves are at close range and what tools you have to work with. Marth wins at close range. There is no disuputing this. He has more to work with and better moves overall.

Marth's aerials can't kill ROB? That's just...silly. Why wouldn't they be able to kill him exactly? All of Marth's aerials have good knockback so what are you talking about?

Look over what you said again and tell me that makes sense. Basically you are saying that Marth goes even with a character that completely shuts him down according to you and the only thing that Marth can do is edgeguard ROB effectively.

This is completely illogical. So either you have to acknowledge what I'm saying is right, or you have to say that ROB ***** Marth.

Now I think its obvious that ROB does't **** Marth. So then you have to go back and take into account the things I said because that is the ONLY way Math goes even with ROB. Being able to get ROB off the stage and gimp him isn't enough when ROB outranges him and according to you combos the **** out of him, and has better options then him.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but thems the breaks. ROB can get out of any sticky close range situation and generally controls when they happen, and he does well in the air and can combo Marth effectively.

What Marth can do is rack up damage easily due to his over-b and easily knock ROB off the stage due to the knockback power of his moves. His aerials don't have the KO power to kill ROB; he does, however, have the power to edgeguard ROB. Because of this, they go even. ROB wins when it is an on-stage battle, Marth wins when it is off. Marth has the ability to get ROB off the stage, and thus the matchup is more even than anything.

O Wow...

Chozen's List... OverSwarm's List...

Bowser
+ +
Captain Falcon
= +
Diddy Kong
+ +
Donkey Kong
+ =
Falco
= =
Fox
- +
Game & Watch
- -
Ganondorf
+ +
Ice Climbers
? +
Ike
+ +
Jigglypuff
= +
King Dedede
= +
Kirby
+ -
Link
+ +
Lucario
= +
Lucas
? +
Luigi
=/- +
Mario
= +
Marth
+ =
Meta Knight
- -
Ness
? +
Peach
= -
Pikachu
+ =
Pikmin & Olimar
? =
Pit
+ =
Pokémon Trainer
R.O.B.
= [lol]
Samus
+ +
Sheik
= +
Snake
=/- =
Sonic
+ =
Toon Link
- =
Wario
+ +
Wolf
+ +
Yoshi
+ =
Zelda
= -
Zero Suit Samus
- +

interesting.. we shall have to discuss this...

See now your last paragraph made perfect sense. But it's not what I'm debating.

The debate for me is HOW does Marth get in his damage if ROB can just shut him down. If it's even then Marth must have something right? Otherwise he is just running in blind and HOPING that he can get some hits in. I do agree that Marth's rushdown is what makes this even for him since he racks up damage easily. Also Marth can kill ROB. He doesn't HAVE to gimp him.

Honestly I think Marth has to play a more aggro game with ROB and rely less on aerials, but that's ok since his ground game is strong.

But what you said about close range made no sense. Sorry, but I'm sticking to that.

Saying Marth's aerials can't kill ROB is silly since all his aerials are kill moves. Go to practice mode and hit ROB with tipper aerials when he is at about 140ish. Marth's aerials are kill moves. Why would you say otherwise? Stop saying such nonsense. Now to say they aren't his best kill options because ROB is heavy is another thing entirely. Mostly it's the way you spaek that make it look like ROB destroys Marth. When you talk you give ROB alot of credit and you give Marth very little.

Emblem Lord said:

See now your last paragraph made perfect sense. But it's not what I'm debating.

The debate for me is HOW does Marth get in his damage if ROB can just shut him down. If it's even then Marth must have something right? Otherwise he is just running in blind and HOPING that he can get some hits in. I do agree that Marth's rushdown is what makes this even for him since he racks up damage easily. Also Marth can kill ROB. He doesn't HAVE to gimp him.

Honestly I think Marth has to play a more aggro game with ROB and rely less on aerials, but that's ok since his ground game is strong.

But what you said about close range made no sense. Sorry, but I'm sticking to that.

Saying Marth's aerials can't kill ROB is silly since all his aerials are kill moves. Go to practice mode and hit ROB with tipper aerials when he is at about 140ish. Marth's aerials are kill moves. Why would you say otherwise? Stop saying such nonsense. Now to say they aren't his best kill options because ROB is heavy is another thing entirely. Mostly it's the way you spaek that make it look like ROB destroys Marth. When you talk you give ROB alot of credit and you give Marth very little.

Click to expand...

I'm not going to say Marth's aerials are KO moves because they aren't. I play Marth, I know. The only way they are kill moves is if you intercept someone as they are returning to the stage, whether it be from the sides or above. His best aerial is his tippered second hit of his nair; it isn't a reliable KO move if your opponent has any sense of DI.

Marth racks up damage through his over-b and his over b alone. Everything else is extremely punishable by ROB, but it doesn't matter for Marth since his over-b is self-healing; it can't degenerate if used properly. Since all his aerials have a high base knockback, it takes only a bit of damage to knock them off the edge. From there, Marth can edgeguard. That's how it is equal. If a Marth plays otherwise... he will fail.

I agree more or less, but saying that Dancing Blade is all Marth has is silly.

And saying that ROB wins in close range is silly and false. I'll let this drop now, since I more or less think that rushdown Marth is what allows Marth to go head to head with ROB, so we or less agree on that.

Emblem Lord is a smash master.

Emblem Lord said:

I agree more or less, but saying that Dancing Blade is all Marth has is silly.

And saying that ROB wins in close range is silly and false. I'll let this drop now, since I more or less think that rushdown Marth is what allows Marth to go head to head with ROB, so we or less agree on that.

Click to expand...

I have to play your Marth again Emblem, you were seriously the first Marth player I'd played in Brawl(not melee though) so I didn't really have any kind of strategies to use with ROB or PT. lol

So Mr Swarm..

About our diffences in opions of the matchups between Kirby, Fox, Luigi, and Zamus...

which are as follows...

Chozen-
OS-

Kirby:
+
-

Fox:
-
+

Luigi:
-
+

Zamus:
-
+

Basically i'll give you a quick overview of my reasoning [but im tired so i shall be away soon.. even theomorphic men need their sleep] and then wait for your reasoning my good sir.

Kirby- He's mean, and nasty.. can combo like it's nobody's business.. but...

As you and I both know, when he's off the stage ROB is guaranteed an easy KO [much like Lucario's Recovery].. he's just too easy to kill.. Kirby+Recovering=PREDICTABLE. Also.. it's difficult for him to NOT be combo'd by your aerials OR disrupt them whilst said player is being combo'd you also MASSIVELY outrange him w/ your Fair, and he dies at INCREDIBLY low percents.. a smasher i frequent festage w/ mains a very technical, and very capable Kirby.. so i'm quite certain of this matchup myself... *feels vids coming*

btw.. alittle advice for yall on this one... if Kirby tries to gay you w/ a barrage of Dairs... please don't forget that you CAN use Uair while boasting ;p

Basically once ROB is past 60% Kirby can't really combo him.. AT ALL.


Fox- is a F***ING DOUSH3BAG.

What changed from melee to brawl.. well for starters his Dair has no lag and his Utilt outprioritizes ROB's Utilt [which raps the other 2 spacies]... his Usmash is basically the same, but he can't WaveShine anylonger [thank you jesus]... he also can juggle ROB w/ a Dair-->Utilt-->Repeat several times >_> DI is nice, but Fox's speed is pretty nice too /sigh

Did i mention your gyro doesn't stop his Lazer.. WTF.

Off the stage ROB CAN gay Fox, and his recovery isn't too bad.. you can Dair and Spike his UpB [as seen in the only vid of me up lol] and Fairs [just like the other spacies] wreck them.. comboing is quite easy here, but again.. his moves are quick and have ALOT of priority... you also can't really outspam Fox either, so you really need to fux w/ Uair combos and FairCombos [please stay away from Dsmashes and Utilts here folks.. you WILL be punished].

Fox is though.. but doable.. but i most certainly feel this is in the FOX's Favor


Luigi- the new Jiggs?

Well.. for starters he can gay ROB [or anyone for that matter..] at 61% + on basically any "legal" stage... and he's quite effective at comboing ROB due to the fact that all of his "important" stuffs combo from below.. *i hate Uair.. [that is all]* so you're really f***ed if you try and escape.. b/c you can't >_> his recovery is almost as good as ROB's, and he's bascially untouchable [minis your Gyro and Lazer ofcourse ] throughout it all.. he's also quite floaty aswell, so it is difficult to combo him on the ground sometimes [though i have certainly seen Luigi's pushed away from the target and unable to follow up b/ c of it lmao] b/c he just slides away... gaaayy.

ROB can combo him fine w/ his Fairs, and can kill him [at the top of the stage] quite early.. but it IS difficult to gay a competent luigi.. [btw.. another crew member of mine basically mains Luigi too (lucky me) so this matchup i too am quite confident with.. Nairs/Bairs/Uairs are your friend here.. StairWay to heaven.. even better

By the Way.. for anyone that doesn't know what a stairway to heaven is- you Uair [w/ ROB] many times over and over [going higher and higher] whilst using the gas from your rockets.. then almost at the end of your gas, when you would almost run outof juice [usually when your nearing the zenith of the screen] you Bair/hovering Nair, and it WILL kill them... but it's usually quite hard to do... but it's sexy

You DO outpower Luigi.. but for the most part, if he combos you.. YOU ARE GOING TO TAKE SOME DAMAGE.. except that fact now... you can kindof outlast him.. just be careful of his Nair [when you're around 130+] and his UpB [or his "Ping" as i like to call it..]. Early deaths suck rocks in brawl... and if you're ROB you'll be so shocked you might be mindgamed into checking to see if the game is faulty b/c you think you S'D.. but nope... Luigi is a f@ggot.


Zamus- sexy.. perhaps the cause for the "Teen" rating.. [well... that and Snakes large.. well... Snake?]

Zanus has a very hard time killing ROB.. but that doesn't matter when she can combo him to around 150%.. Uair is insane. I'm not quite sure it is humanly possible to move like that in the air due to tendons and such.. but hey... im a firefighter.... not a doctor.

You can outspam her, but then again.. Her ForwardB kills, and she can spike you [maybe kindof] w/ her UpB.. BTW...

wtf is that... i mean honestly.. is she fricking WonderWomen w/ her "Lasso of Justice"... copyright infringement much >_>

Getting back on track.. ROB can gay her quite nicely w/ Fairs and legdehogging.. and combos come nice w/ Uairs [startup lag on your Dair.. nice try *****] and Fairs "can" work.. but she is trixy.. ish. Her Bairs WILL combo you.. Her Uairs WILL combo you.. Her Dthrow does stuffs.. her Uthrow is nasty too.. i am still slightly unconcerned w/ fighting Zamus players anyway though.. mostly just creepy 15 year olds [sorry Chillin] that need to get laid.

Note- Chillin now plays DDD... which makes him slightly effeminate.. but still a man.

Note^2- M2K also plays DDD.. which makes me wonder why he doesn't play Zamus...

So basically i might have to change my vote to "=" .. or even-ses or what eve.. i can say though, that i do not believe that ROB ***** her... unless your gaying her [lol gaying a chick.. this makes Chozen lewl] at like 30% after Fthrow-->Fair-->Fair-->LedgeHog.. geeze... ROB is pretty gay..

*attempts to think of non-gay rebuttal*

*fails*

*thinks back to player comparison to character*

*insert Ken's Peach Theory Here*

*insert Chozen's ROB Theory Here*

oh NOs.

Good Day Sirs.

Ch0zen0ne said:

So Mr Swarm..

About our diffences in opions of the matchups between Kirby, Fox, Luigi, and Zamus...

which are as follows...

Chozen-
OS-

Kirby:
+
-

Click to expand...

Kirby...

Kirby can combo ROB fairly well at low %, and at higher % still doesn't have an issue getting damage in.

While ROB can effectively edgeguard him, if Kirby simply goes as high as possible and lands on the stage it is difficult for ROB to do anything, especially since most of his aerials are slow enough to allow Kirby to use his down+b: the ultimate slap in the face.

What I believe really sets this matchup at a disadvantage for ROB is that ROB has to extend a large amount of effort against Kirby in all factions. Even when recovering, Kirby can do amazing things against ROB. I've played G-regs kirby and while G-reg's kirby wasn't as polished as his other characters, it was doing a lot of things that could have been drastically improved upon. A good Kirby would give me a ton of trouble! Granted, I don't have as much experience in this matchup as I would like, but it's the beginning of Brawl so that is true for everyone.

Fox:
-
+

Click to expand...

Fox, offensively, is a beast. I originally thought the same as you, until I realized that I can kill Fox every time he's off the stage, period. That just made the matchup cakewalk for me. I don't even rack up damage anymore, I just get him off the stage. Wait for him to start over-b or up+b, then laser. he is now under the stage or going for the ledge. Grab ledge or hit his up+b with gyro or laser, then follow up with fairs off stage. GGs.

Also, ROB can outspam ANYONE.

Luigi:
-
+

Click to expand...

Everything you say is true to a ROB that fights on the stage. I played Tink's Luigi in a friendly and I thought "wow, this guy is tough; I can't trade hits with him but can't approach safely!"

So then I played him in tournament and I grabbed the edge at the start of the match. Then I jumped up and fired a laser. I was winning. He had to approach me, and I just kept getting him off the ledge and going back to the ledge myself. Matchup is a cakewalk then.

Zamus:
-
+

Click to expand...

Zamus gave my brain a bit of trouble at first. She's tether, but you can't gay her like other tether recoveries. She can combo, and has a long range KO move. Why isn't she top tier?!

Then I realized everything good she has was insanely predictable and simply required good spacing, and that you can still edgeguard her well. It just takes a bit more effort.

The clincher for Zamus vs. ROB is that she can't get a KO on ROB unless ROB messes up. That's the ultimate sign of how a matchup goes.

Fox can kill ROB by getting in a u-smash out of the blue.

Zamus has to kill ROB by getting in a forward-b or other such move after ROB messes up.

Whenever a character has to rely on the opponent to get a knockout, the matchup is in their opponent's control.

hmm.. i will have to think about this a tad..

as for something else i've been considering...

Snake is a *******.. and even on flat stages [like FD, or SmashVille] where ROB can drop a gyro on the ground, and prevent mortor sliding, and nade spamming, [imo] Snake can kill ROB ALOT easier than ROB can kill Snake and Snake isn't really that gayable [unless you counterpick FD lol].. Snake's Ftilt also has insane priority, and his Jabby gayness is ********.. and he NEVER dies.

After playing against some more snakage today i [think] my new conclusion for the ROB/Snake matchup is that- when on FD ROB has the advantage.. but basically everywhere else, it's in Snake's favor.

Ch0zen0ne said:

hmm.. i will have to think about this a tad..

as for something else i've been considering...

Snake is a *******.. and even on flat stages [like FD, or SmashVille] where ROB can drop a gyro on the ground, and prevent mortor sliding, and nade spamming, [imo] Snake can kill ROB ALOT easier than ROB can kill Snake and Snake isn't really that gayable [unless you counterpick FD lol].. Snake's Ftilt also has insane priority, and his Jabby gayness is ********.. and he NEVER dies.

After playing against some more snakage today i [think] my new conclusion for the ROB/Snake matchup is that- when on FD ROB has the advantage.. but basically everywhere else, it's in Snake's favor.

Click to expand...

Uphill battel for ROB, yes. But not too bad.

Okay, I'll give some of my thoughts against characters who I have a decent amount of experience against.

Olimar
+

Peach
+

Link
+

Marth
+
*awaits emblem lord to enter and start debating* =P

Dedede
+

Ness
+

Lucas
+

Diddy
=

Pit
=

Snake
=

Pikachu
=

Toon Link
=

Game and Watch
=

MetaKnight
-

Luigi
-

Kirby
-

Jiggly
-

Ike
-

Samus
-

lolz. Everything that can be said about the match-up has already been said.

Nothing to debate.

heh the conversations were fun to read though. XD

I actually would have given Marth vs ROB 60/40 in ROB's favor, but Marth has solid rushdown and he can gimp so I was like ok 50/50.

I enjoyed debating with Chozenone and Overswarm.

They are actually intelligent and made some valid points, although I think OS is on crack when he says that Marth only has like one viable move on the ground vs ROB.

Still, it's nice to debate with intelligent skillful players. Not the ignorant fools I deal with in my Marth match-up thread.

lol.. i feel for you my good sir... and at least in this environment we can all hate M2K together ^_^

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162522

i'm such a doushe.

lol.....


But yes.. Mr Lord is quite the smash debater. As is Mr Swarm, BornFidelity, CommonYoshi, and HonorBound [Wobbles name pre ban lol]. He has earned a spot among Chozen's Respected Smashers list.


ON TOPIC-->

hmm.. i also played w/ my friend's Snake today [don't even think it sirs.. a gentleman never tells...] and once you get past his gay-brokenness.. Utilts, and Uairs work marvelous wonders...

ALSO--> MK is definitly a ROB counter >_>

/dies

Well IMO, its Marth, Ike, Jiggz, and Lucas. Those seem to be the harder or hardest of them all.

But my friend has a crazy DK and Bowser - which can cause more trouble than Marth once in a while.