Official Stage Legality Discussion

Eten · Mar 25, 2008

EDIT: I'm sorry, I was thinking of a different stop than you. The stops aren't always in a set order or pattern, sometimes it skips certain stops. However there is safe areas on the sides on the stop that you are talking about, otherwise some cars are tall enough to hit above those platforms.

Yeah. On the sideways one there is a wall on the left side and then two equal height platforms, and then a third middle higher platform battlefield style. That's the most troublesome spot on all stops, there is no visual warning there as far as I know and only the middle top platform is safe, unless you can stall in the air. All the rest always have safezones on the sides at least, regardless of the platforms.

On the stop with a hole in the middle, the middle platform over that hole is not safe, but the other two are. A common early stop where the course curves a bit, the low platforms are not safe but the sides of the course are. Um... The stop with the dive portion of the course behind you, there are no platforms, but it is wide to the point of walkoffs and there is a lot of open space on each side. There is also almost enough visual warning on that one to be able to dodge cars in the middle if you felt like it. I feel like I'm missing a stop that includes the cars, but I'm just going off the top of my head right now.

FoxMaster77 · Mar 25, 2008

Legal:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium

Counterpick:

Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Mushroomy Kingdom (Ground and Underground)
Mario Circuit
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Frigate Orpheon
Battleship Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Port Town Aero Drive
Castle Siege
The Summit
Skyworld
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Jungle Japes
Onett
Corneria
Rainbow Ride
Green Greens
Brinstar

Banned:

Rumble Falls
Norfair
Spear Pillar
WarioWare
Distant Planet
New Pork City
75m
Mario Bros. (Sakurai said it throws all the basic rules of smash out of the window.)
Flat Zone 2
Pictochat
Temple
Big Blue

BrawlCentral's List of Stage Bans.

Rokk141 · Mar 25, 2008

The_Marooner said:
I would just like to post in support of the Back Room people opening up the discussion for the non-chosen ones. Not to contribute to it, as the sheer volume of useless posts would make it impossible to have an effective discussion, but just to read it, if that's feasible. First, I think that being able to see the collective thought process that goes into the official list would lead to more rapid acceptance of the list in this community (and others), as well as screen out at least 50 "why is X stage banned" threads. Second, any of those "why is X stage banned" threads that remain would be far more focused, since we would know the criteria on which the decision was based in the first place. Finally, this particular topic is of much greater interest to the general smash community than most of what (I imagine) is discussed in the back room, and is fairly unique.

Of course, maybe I'm just trying to satisfy my own curiousity.

I whole-heartedly share your desire to read the backroom's discussion on this matter.

Eten · Mar 25, 2008

Norfair, Distant Planet, Pictochat on the banned list, but Brinstar, Summit, and Port Town are not? What reasoning could they be using?

ZenJestr · Mar 25, 2008

actually none of those should be banned...

supercake · Mar 25, 2008

Mic_128 said:
Feel like saying exactly why it 'makes the game not competative'?

look everyone we cannot help it if some random stage mind****s some smasher somewhere and makes him go ******** and it snowballs into some controversy. also i dont see what is wrong with spear pillar. cant handle the control switch? i am sorry the ******** 4 legged mothman thing gave you the evil eye but it does not take pro to make some new neurons that work backwards.

pretty soon were going to be having ridiculous things being tried, like making lylat a counterpick bc fox has an easteregg or banning final destination because its edges are a little different and the background sent someone into a seizure once.

on that note here is my new improved list of what we would have if some of these peoples posts werent put out of their misery sooner:

Neutral:
Mario Bros.
Jungle Japes
Frigate Orpheon
The Summit
Battlefield
Halberd
New Pork City
Temple
Rainbow Ride

Counterpick:
PictoChat
Lylat Cruise
WarioWare, Inc.
Yoshi's Island
Smashville

Banned:
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2
Bridge of Eldin
Corneria
Mario Circuit
Pirate Ship
Castle Siege
Mushroomy Kingdom
Green Greens
Green Hill Zone
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
Flat Zone 2
Delfino Plaza
75m
Spear Pillar
Onett
Norfair
Big Blue
Brinstar
Luigi's Mansion
Jungle Japes
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Pokemon Stadium
Distant Planet

NintendoTogepi · Mar 25, 2008

Noypi_GjD said:
There is my opinion.

You opinion sucks.

Firestorm88 · Mar 26, 2008

NintendoTogepi, troll elsewhere. You've shown your idea of banning a stage comes out of "it annoys me". Because your ideas conflict with everyone else's so much, you should be working extra hard to give REASONS for all stages you put in the banned list. I didn't list any for mine, though I should, because it seems most people agree with the stages. The only one that most do not is Skyworld, which I admit is something I included due to my own bias. It should probably be tested before being banned.

You're doing something crazy like putting Halberd in Banned when there's a high chance it could be Neutral. You have to justify and be willing to defend your points. Otherwise, you're obviously not making an impact on the discussion so why bother?

Snail · Mar 26, 2008

Flying Dutchman said:
Opinions..

Neutrals:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Battleship Halberd: Some think this should be counterpick but I disagree. The stage hazards are minimalistic, only last a few seconds and don't kill unless you're in the high percentages. The laser can be DI'd out of, the Crane can be dodged and the cannonball.. Well, everybody who played this should know.
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's Island
Smashville

Counterpicks:

Green Hill Zone: No killing hazards, save points give fair warning.
Bridge of Eldin
Brinstar (Melee)
Corneria (Melee): Wall promotes camping.
Distant Planet: Close to Neutral, if it wasn't for random spawning items and the waterfall on the side can be trouble.
Pirate Ship: Slingshot/cannon/whatever doesn't kill. It slings you away, yes, but it's not a killer and it gives fair warning. In fact, every stage change gives fair warning.
Jungle Japes (Melee)
Pokémon Stadium (Melee)
Pokémon Stadium 2
Onett: Camping will be often broken up by the cars coming and driving people over (which also gives fair warning).
Luigi's Mansion: Circle stage is avoided by the fact that the house can break down.
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Norfair: The lava from sides and down give fair warning, seeing how it comes up slowly. The lava from behind can be shielded easily and some characters can jump over it (looking at you Pit).
Shadow Moses Island: Walls can be broken down to prevent wall infinites.
Hanenbow: No killing hazards, no walls, no walk-off stages. Learn the stage a bit to know where the platforms are so you don't get tricked.
Castle Siege: Not a neutral because the warning given off before the change is very slight, and disrupts the flow of play, and sometimes, you can get under the stage edges because of this and not make it back to the stage.
Rainbow Cruise (Melee)
Mario Circuit
Frigate Orpheon: Again, fair warning, it's easy to stay alive with the flip and it doesn't disrupt gameplay too much. No killing hazards either, only problem is, you can get under the stage due to the flip.
Delfino Plaza: Mute City without killing hazards. Platform won't just lift off, the platform forms slowly. Grab-edges make it easier to recover if you do miss it. Close to Neutral, in my opinion.

Banned:

Rumble Falls
75m
Big Blue (Melee)
Hyrule Temple (Melee)
Mushroomy Kingdom
Port Town: Aero Dive
Skyworld
Spear Pillar
WarioWare, Inc.
Flat Zone 2
Mario Bros.
New Pork City

EDIT: 800 posts blabla.

^ This. I completely agree, except I think Delfino should be neutral x)

:034: · Mar 26, 2008

Snail said:
^ This. I completely agree, except I think Delfino should be neutral x)

I am thinking of putting it in Neutral.. After all, it has no killing hazards, the platform gives fair warning before lifting off and the stage itself gives no glaring advantage to certain characters, only thing that could happen is something like this. And who'd pick Ganon anyway?

Deleted member · Mar 26, 2008

supercake said:
look everyone we cannot help it if some random stage mind****s some smasher somewhere and makes him go ******** and it snowballs into some controversy. also i dont see what is wrong with spear pillar. cant handle the control switch? i am sorry the ******** 4 legged mothman thing gave you the evil eye but it does not take pro to make some new neurons that work backwards.

pretty soon were going to be having ridiculous things being tried, like making lylat a counterpick bc fox has an easteregg or banning final destination because its edges are a little different and the background sent someone into a seizure once.

on that note here is my new improved list of what we would have if some of these peoples posts werent put out of their misery sooner:

Neutral:
Mario Bros.
Jungle Japes
Frigate Orpheon
The Summit
Battlefield
Halberd
New Pork City
Temple
Rainbow Ride

Counterpick:
PictoChat
Lylat Cruise
WarioWare, Inc.
Yoshi's Island
Smashville

Banned:
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 2
Bridge of Eldin
Corneria
Mario Circuit
Pirate Ship
Castle Siege
Mushroomy Kingdom
Green Greens
Green Hill Zone
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
Flat Zone 2
Delfino Plaza
75m
Spear Pillar
Onett
Norfair
Big Blue
Brinstar
Luigi's Mansion
Jungle Japes
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Pokemon Stadium
Distant Planet

No at the bolded.

Thinkaman · Mar 26, 2008

Hey guys, time for a list. Introductions suck.

Neutral-And-If-You-Disagree-Quit-Smash:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (New)
Lylat Cruise

These are all obvious.

Neutral-Everyone-Might-Not-Agree-With:

Delfino Plaza (Overall balanced stage, variety balances things out for most the characters; no large sustained advantages.)
Frigate Orpheon (The flip has obvious warning, only screws you if you manage to fail hard, and the edgeless side is manageable. Tethers can ban it to be safe.)
Halberd (Go read Card's thread; no johns for weak hazards that have a TEN SECOND WARNING...)
Pokemon Stadium (Don't like the windmill or the edges? Ban it then, they don't give any character an advantage and it's still a great stage.)
Luigi's Mansion (If you don't think this is a neutral stage, I don't know what to tell you. The point is, any and all camping strategies will break pillars and be temporary.)
Castle Siege (Seems fair by my experience; the open space and walk-off edges of the 2nd part are negated enough by the platforms to warrant Neutral status.

Counterpick-For-Obvious-Reasons:

Jungle Japes (Extremely high ceiling, water, defensive platforms; nothing broken though)
Rainbow Ride (Duh, moving obstacle course.)
Corneria (Extremely low ceiling, Arwings, defensive corner)
Skyworld (Why would anyone ban this? It's the most obvious Counterpick ever, with lots of advantages but no broken strategies.)
Brinstar (Duh.)

Counterpick-And-Questionable:

Distant Planet (Meh... I just don't see a reason to ban it. The water is hardly threatening, and only a fool would be killed by the Bulborb. Both are forecast way ahead of time.)
Norfair (Maybe it's just me, but everything seems really easy to dodge and not that disruptive. It's nice for tethers to have a non-walk-off CP for themselves too.)
Green Hill Zone (It isn't half as big as people think, and if you run into the bumper, that's your own fault. It's a defensive stage, so what? Deal with it or ban it yourself.)
Port Town Aero Dive (Yes, the cars do a lot of damage. However, they are very, very predictable. I don't want to hear johns about anyone getting hit by a car that's in the same place every time you play the stage.)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (People not being used to it should not warrant a ban. We deal with the Pokemon Stadium 1 transformations just fine, and Fire/Rock are pretty awful. I can see this stage being Neutral some day.)
Pirate Ship (The bombs and catapult are heavily forecast and easy to dodge, the latter doing no damage. The water and rare, short gravity changes are no reason to ban a stage. Not a strong enough case to ban.)
Shadow Moses Island (Not too sure about this one... it seems that every time someone comes up with a "inescapable" combo against the walls, someone manages to escape from it...)
Yoshi's Island (Melee) (Higher ceiling, no waveshining makes it potentially legal; can DeDeDe chaingrab up the edge? I confess that I hate this stage with a passion and don't play on it.)
Onett (Ceiling, Cars, and Corners are all easier to deal with now.)

Banned-And-Questionable:

Green Greens (Bombs and to a lesser extent apples are too random and too dangerous.)
Mushroomy Kingdom (Not banned for just 1-2; this stage has an impossibly low ceiling that makes light characters totally unplayable. It can never be legal for that reason alone.)
The Summit (I think this is a much more viable stage than most give it credit for, but not sure if it is conventional enough to ever be legal.)
PictoChat (The stage is truly random and does things with zero warning. People in general don't like it to boot, so I don't see much point in debating it. I mean, would YOU ever counterpick PictoChat?)
Bridge of Eldin (As long as there is DeDeDe...)
Mario Circuit (See above; platform not enough to validate it.)

Banned-And-No-One-Disagrees:

Rumble Falls
Flat Zone 2
WarioWare, Inc.
75m
Spear Pillar
Mario Bros.
New Pork City
Temple
Big Blue

It isn't that these stages suck, it's just that we enter tournaments to play Smash Bros., not the crazy distant cousin of Smash Bros. on these levels. I mean, we might as well play a round of Halo to determine the winner.

Eternal Yoshi · Mar 26, 2008

Why don't we debate one stage at a time? I feel that we will get more done that way. I'll start with Spear Pillar.
I think it should be banned in singles. A lot of the events do have warnings. However, those warnings can be difficult to see when a 1 on 1 match is heated in one of the lower corners or when you are on the bottom part of the stage in general.
Take Dialga's beam attack for example. the warning is a series of tiny lights that start from where the attack is coming from and ends where the beam is going to. If your brawl is on the opposite of that warning, you don't get a lot of time to escape. Most characters don't have enough time to escape the beam if they are on the other side, causing 20-60% damage to both fighters. Also, if you trip, tou are trapped.
I was Peach in All-Star mode when I fought on Spear Pillar. I KO'd Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and the Trainer's Pokemon. I went to KO Lucario off the screen when he went to the bottom of the stage. He dodged into the corner. Then a beam attack was being readied on the other side. When I saw the warning, I tried to jump to the top, but Peach didn't escape in time. Her lower body was caught. You can't hang on the edge to avoid damage either. I tried many times and got zapped every time by the hitbox that has knockback.
This also becomes a problem with Cressida's attacks as they can go through walls and slice both of you.
Another thing to mention is that it's possible to camp down there to prevent vertical KOs and DI upwards unless Palkia destroys the ceiling, which may not happen. It's not as bad as the Temple's Cave of Life though.
The stage hazards are completely random too. Palkia doesn't always do a beam attack. He might reverse the screen or destroy the center section of the board. It's as random as Warioware, but with more events. Seriously.
BTW: It's not the reverse contrrols I am pecking at. It's everything else.
Please respond intelligently.

Thinkaman · Mar 26, 2008

I don't know that anyone wants Spear Pillar to not be banned. There is an active thread devoted to that though, if you want to discuss it.

:034: · Mar 26, 2008

Thinkaman said:
Hey guys, time for a list. Introductions suck.

Neutral-And-If-You-Disagree-Quit-Smash:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (New)
Lylat Cruise

These are all obvious.

Obviously.

Neutral-Everyone-Might-Not-Agree-With:

Frigate Orpheon (The flip has obvious warning, only screws you if you manage to fail hard, and the edgeless side is manageable. Tethers can ban it to be safe.)

The thing is, while there are safe edges, you can sometimes get pwned by the stage while recovering - when you have no chance to put yourself in a good position and get under the stage because of that. Plus, you can get whacked in the face by the stage. :D I don't think it's a neutral because these things are much more apparent than the hazards on Halberd. Counterpick is fine, though.

Castle Siege (Seems fair by my experience; the open space and walk-off edges of the 2nd part are negated enough by the platforms to warrant Neutral status.

Here.

Counterpick-For-Obvious-Reasons:
Skyworld (Why would anyone ban this? It's the most obvious Counterpick ever, with lots of advantages but no broken strategies.)

Skyworld gives a major disadvantage against vertical recovery. The platforms make it hard to recover for vertical characters such as Luigi and Ike. Next to that, if you break the platforms, you can SPIKE PEOPLE THROUGH THE CLOUDS. That's the major gripe with this stage, you can just downthrow with Fox or spam ANY spiking move for that matter.

Counterpick-And-Questionable:
Port Town Aero Dive (Yes, the cars do a lot of damage. However, they are very, very predictable. I don't want to hear johns about anyone getting hit by a car that's in the same place every time you play the stage.)

Cars are now an instant KO. Just punch somebody into it for the win? I mean, what the hell? Some platforms don't even give proper protection against those cars, they just slam right through you. And man, at some points there are NO platforms, letting the cars helplessly drive over you unless you drive to the side and stand on the very edge. It doesn't kill you but it does promote camping and disrupts the flow of battle.

Agreed with the rest, perhaps not my personal preferences but those stages can simply be banned by the few who get a (very very very minor) disadvantage from it.

NintendoTogepi · Mar 26, 2008

Thinkaman said:
Hey guys, time for a list. Introductions suck.

Neutral-And-If-You-Disagree-Quit-Smash:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (New)
Lylat Cruise

These are all obvious.

Neutral-Everyone-Might-Not-Agree-With:

Delfino Plaza (Overall balanced stage, variety balances things out for most the characters; no large sustained advantages.)
Frigate Orpheon (The flip has obvious warning, only screws you if you manage to fail hard, and the edgeless side is manageable. Tethers can ban it to be safe.)
Halberd (Go read Card's thread; no johns for weak hazards that have a TEN SECOND WARNING...)
Pokemon Stadium (Don't like the windmill or the edges? Ban it then, they don't give any character an advantage and it's still a great stage.)
Luigi's Mansion (If you don't think this is a neutral stage, I don't know what to tell you. The point is, any and all camping strategies will break pillars and be temporary.)
Castle Siege (Seems fair by my experience; the open space and walk-off edges of the 2nd part are negated enough by the platforms to warrant Neutral status.

Counterpick-For-Obvious-Reasons:

Jungle Japes (Extremely high ceiling, water, defensive platforms; nothing broken though)
Rainbow Ride (Duh, moving obstacle course.)
Corneria (Extremely low ceiling, Arwings, defensive corner)
Skyworld (Why would anyone ban this? It's the most obvious Counterpick ever, with lots of advantages but no broken strategies.)
Brinstar (Duh.)

Counterpick-And-Questionable:

Distant Planet (Meh... I just don't see a reason to ban it. The water is hardly threatening, and only a fool would be killed by the Bulborb. Both are forecast way ahead of time.)
Norfair (Maybe it's just me, but everything seems really easy to dodge and not that disruptive. It's nice for tethers to have a non-walk-off CP for themselves too.)
Green Hill Zone (It isn't half as big as people think, and if you run into the bumper, that's your own fault. It's a defensive stage, so what? Deal with it or ban it yourself.)
Port Town Aero Dive (Yes, the cars do a lot of damage. However, they are very, very predictable. I don't want to hear johns about anyone getting hit by a car that's in the same place every time you play the stage.)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (People not being used to it should not warrant a ban. We deal with the Pokemon Stadium 1 transformations just fine, and Fire/Rock are pretty awful. I can see this stage being Neutral some day.)
Pirate Ship (The bombs and catapult are heavily forecast and easy to dodge, the latter doing no damage. The water and rare, short gravity changes are no reason to ban a stage. Not a strong enough case to ban.)
Shadow Moses Island (Not too sure about this one... it seems that every time someone comes up with a "inescapable" combo against the walls, someone manages to escape from it...)
Yoshi's Island (Melee) (Higher ceiling, no waveshining makes it potentially legal; can DeDeDe chaingrab up the edge? I confess that I hate this stage with a passion and don't play on it.)
Onett (Ceiling, Cars, and Corners are all easier to deal with now.)

Banned-And-Questionable:

Green Greens (Bombs and to a lesser extent apples are too random and too dangerous.)
Mushroomy Kingdom (Not banned for just 1-2; this stage has an impossibly low ceiling that makes light characters totally unplayable. It can never be legal for that reason alone.)
The Summit (I think this is a much more viable stage than most give it credit for, but not sure if it is conventional enough to ever be legal.)
PictoChat (The stage is truly random and does things with zero warning. People in general don't like it to boot, so I don't see much point in debating it. I mean, would YOU ever counterpick PictoChat?)
Bridge of Eldin (As long as there is DeDeDe...)
Mario Circuit (See above; platform not enough to validate it.)

Banned-And-No-One-Disagrees:

Rumble Falls
Flat Zone 2
WarioWare, Inc.
75m
Spear Pillar
Mario Bros.
New Pork City
Temple
Big Blue

It isn't that these stages suck, it's just that we enter tournaments to play Smash Bros., not the crazy distant cousin of Smash Bros. on these levels. I mean, we might as well play a round of Halo to determine the winner.

I disagree with your neutral stages. Also, after most play I have decided to ban Green Greens as well. Those bombs are deadly.

...

No, I'm just joking. My whole list was a joke. The fact that I was taken seriously proves how ridicolous this whole thing is...

Really though, in all honestly, I don't see why Big Blue is banned? Maybe I'm crazy but....what's the issue here? I see nothing to prevent it being counterpick is even neutral.

If Big Blue is banned, how can Port Town Aero Dive, which is a gazillion times worse, be counterpick?

And PictoChat should be counterpick or even neutral, its fine. I would definitely counterpick it, if only because I love the stage.

BTW, I sort of really do think FD should be a counterpick. It heavily favors people with a good ground and projectile game.

P.S. 5 neutral stages is ridicolous

Seifersythe · Mar 26, 2008

NintendoTogepi said:
P.S. 5 neutral stages is ridicolous

Melee had six

NintendoTogepi · Mar 26, 2008

Seifersythe said:
Melee had six

Yes, but Melee has 29 stages, Brawl has 41

King Zeal · Mar 26, 2008

I completely agree with Dutchman about Port Town. In fact, there are segments of the map where you can't even see the cars coming.

MysticKenji · Mar 26, 2008

Here's what I think...

Neutral:
Battlefield
Battleship Halberd
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Rainbow Cruise (Doubles Only)
Smashville
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]

Counterpick:
Bridge of Eldin
Brinstar
Castle Siege
Corneria
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon
Green Greens
Green Hill Zone
Hanenbow
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit
Norfair
Onett*
PictoChat
Pirate Ship
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rainbow Cruise (Singles Only)
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Skyworld
Yoshi's Island [Melee]

Banned:
75m
Big Blue
Flat Zone 2
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Port Town Aero Dive
Spear Pillar
Summit
Temple
Warioware

Eten · Mar 26, 2008

There HAS to be some framework to base these stage groupings on. We simply can not go on "I don't like it".

My argument for Neutral stages- They are all simple(low amount of stage elements/shifts/hazards) and if you got one of the neutral stages randomly it would never give you that much of a significant advantage or disadvantage of getting another one. This is why I think *only* Battlefield, Final Destination, Lylat Cruise, Smashville, Yoshi's Story(new), and Pokemon Stadium 1 can receive neutral stage status. No matter how simple courses like Halberd and Delfino plaza are, they still have hazards or moveing stage shifts/walls/water/walk offs that don't keep them simple enough or can be a noticable difference from the rest of neutral.

This should really not be controversial anymore. As good as some of the other courses are, like Castle Siege, they just are not truly neutral to fit in. Pushing for them to be neutral is just asking much too much.

What should be grounds for banning is NOT hazards, or if it includes even the smallest element of randomness. Hazards and randomness can fit in easily if they are avoidable, manipulatable, etc. We exclude items because the level of effect randomness can have equates to too much luck for competitive play(even though over many matches the randomness of items can be said to even out, but w/ a small sample size, such as a few matches of a tournament, it's much more likely to end up favoring one or the other). An example of something that is both random and a hazard and is perfectly fine is the claw/cannon/laser of Halberd. It's all predictable(ie. gives warning), manipulatable(even if laser focuses you, grab someone and hold them as the beam comes and blasts you both.), and most of all, avoidable(all sorts of dodging works). An example of something that is random and is not fine is Warioware, where even if both manage to complete a mini-game, one may be rewarded minor % recovery while the other gets invincibility. Banning also goes for forced scolling platformer stages, stages that throw the rules of smash out the window(Mario Bros.), and stages that have a circular path/huge that allow infinite stalling.

Given the neutral, and the banned then are: Mushroomy Kingdom, Rumble Falls(scroll), Mario Bros.(even sakurai said this throws the usual rules of smash out the window), Wario Ware(randomness), New Pork City, Temple, 75m, and then Spear Pillar(all have the stalling issues, either circular path size or the combination of the two). Crazy or not, that actually leaves everything else as counterpick- even things like Big Blue.

Instead of disagreeing on the individual stages(so one can avoid the "I don't like the stage" garbage), tell me what you would add or remove from the aspects that would get a stage banned.

MysticKenji · Mar 26, 2008

There's nothing wrong with scrolling stages -_-

Eaode · Mar 26, 2008

Eten said:
There HAS to be some framework to base these stage groupings on. We simply can not go on "I don't like it".

My argument for Neutral stages- They are all simple(low amount of stage elements/shifts/hazards) and if you got one of the neutral stages randomly it would never give you that much of a significant advantage or disadvantage of getting another one. This is why I think *only* Battlefield, Final Destination, Lylat Cruise, Smashville, Yoshi's Story(new), and Pokemon Stadium 1 can receive neutral stage status. No matter how simple courses like Halberd and Delfino plaza are, they still have hazards or moveing stage shifts/walls/water/walk offs that don't keep them simple enough or can be a noticable difference from the rest of neutral.

This should really not be controversial anymore. As good as some of the other courses are, like Castle Siege, they just are not truly neutral to fit in. Pushing for them to be neutral is just asking much too much.

What should be grounds for banning is NOT hazards, or if it includes even the smallest element of randomness. Hazards and randomness can fit in easily if they are avoidable, manipulatable, etc. We exclude items because the level of effect randomness can have equates to too much luck for competitive play(even though over many matches the randomness of items can be said to even out, but w/ a small sample size, such as a few matches of a tournament, it's much more likely to end up favoring one or the other). An example of something that is both random and a hazard and is perfectly fine is the claw/cannon/laser of Halberd. It's all predictable(ie. gives warning), manipulatable(even if laser focuses you, grab someone and hold them as the beam comes and blasts you both.), and most of all, avoidable(all sorts of dodging works). An example of something that is random and is not fine is Warioware, where even if both manage to complete a mini-game, one may be rewarded minor % recovery while the other gets invincibility. Banning also goes for forced scolling platformer stages, stages that throw the rules of smash out the window(Mario Bros.), and stages that have a circular path/huge that allow infinite stalling.

Given the neutral, and the banned then are: Mushroomy Kingdom, Rumble Falls(scroll), Mario Bros.(even sakurai said this throws the usual rules of smash out the window), Wario Ware(randomness), New Pork City, Temple, 75m, and then Spear Pillar(all have the stalling issues, either circular path size or the combination of the two). Crazy or not, that actually leaves everything else as counterpick- even things like Big Blue.

Instead of disagreeing on the individual stages(so one can avoid the "I don't like the stage" garbage), tell me what you would add or remove from the aspects that would get a stage banned.

Big Blue was Banned in Melee because the layout and distribution of the cars, and I think the platforms (?) are random, and the fact that the road makes KO's extremely stupid. If you're hit into the road (unless to the right), even if you Tech, you still die.

Eten · Mar 26, 2008

Big Blue was Banned in Melee because the layout and distribution of the cars, and I think the platforms (?) are random, and the fact that the road makes KO's extremely stupid. If you're hit into the road (unless to the right), even if you Tech, you still die

I'm gonna tell you up front that, except for the music, I don't like big blue much. But I have to play devil's advocate here.

Layout and distribution of cars- Since the stage doesn't have any circular paths and even shifts preventing an easy course for running away, I don't know what context the layout and distribution of cars is being used to consider it ban-worthy.

Randomness- Is the randomness of platforms that big of an issue? It isn't like a bob-omb falling in your face or getting invincibility. Since the platforms still shift only so fast and otherwise never just screw somebody over like getting invincibility out of wario ware, is the randomness really grounds for banning it? There is randomness in the order of stops on Delfino Plaza, which makes the platform arrangement random throughout time- if the randomness of the platforms here are a problem, what about Delfino Plaza?

The road- You say KO's are "extremely stupid". Isn't that subjective? Couldn't it just be considered to have a really really close blastline, except on the right side? How would this be bannable?

wWw Dazwa · Mar 26, 2008

Eten said:
I'm gonna tell you up front that, except for the music, I don't like big blue much. But I have to play devil's advocate here.

Admirable and understandable.

My biggest issue with the stage is just how close the kill zone is. You can shield an attack, be pushed off the car due to shield knockback, onto the road, TECH, and STILL DIE. While this is manipulatable by both players...it becomes very dangerous to fight in that area, to the point where the only safe way to play the stage is to be excessively campy. I can imagine matches being pushed to the time limit because both players refuse to approach the other unless they're fighting on the Falcon Flier.

However, this is all theory and not something I've tested personally, or seen tested (mostly because players are going with the "Banned in Melee, Banned in Brawl" mentality).

cloakblade5 · Mar 26, 2008

Flying Dutchman said:
Cars are now an instant KO. Just punch somebody into it for the win? I mean, what the hell? Some platforms don't even give proper protection against those cars, they just slam right through you. And man, at some points there are NO platforms, letting the cars helplessly drive over you unless you drive to the side and stand on the very edge. It doesn't kill you but it does promote camping and disrupts the flow of battle.

Cars an instant KO. I've been knocked into them a lot and hardly ever die.

BTW, FIRST POST

Eaode · Mar 26, 2008

Although me saying "extremely stupid" is subjective, It was just me expressing my opinion. With the road behaving how it is, if you are hit onto it at any %, its a kill. This makes KO's less based on skill than they should be, and can encourage camping on the right side of the stage, which sometimes may cause problems. Overall, the stage just makes the match less skill based and more based on constant avoidance and getting a hit on your opponent to knock them into the road.

Its like saying Play FD, but if you get knocked downon this half of the stage, you die. Or like the parts of Soul Calibur II where you automatically die if you fall. Not to mention sometimes the moving cars and platforms can potentially create scenarios where you were killed by luck. For instance, imagine we were fighting on Big Blue, and I Forward smash you. You shield, and all is right with the world. But let's say that the car behind you decides to start falling behind on the track, and you end up tumbling onto the road instead and die. If the car didnt randomly change position, you wouldn't have lost the stock.

Eten · Mar 26, 2008

Not to mention sometimes the moving cars and platforms can potentially create scenarios where you were killed by luck. For instance, imagine we were fighting on Big Blue, and I Forward smash you. You shield, and all is right with the world. But let's say that the car behind you decides to start falling behind on the track, and you end up tumbling onto the road instead and die. If the car didnt randomly change position, you wouldn't have lost the stock.

THIS works in defining why Big Blue should be banned.

All stages need to be considered very carefully in this manner, I think. This actually ties back into the original settings I tried to come up to define what stages are banned.

Pieman0920 · Mar 26, 2008

Hitting the track of Big Blue is something that's rarely fatal once you've played on the stage enough. Unfortunately, most people don't do this, and don't see how easy it is to get the feel of the stage. =/

the_judge · Mar 26, 2008

Neutrals
FD
Battlefield
Lylat
Smashville
New Yoshi's Island
Delfino Plaza (maybe)

I'm not gonna post counterpicks, but I say Frigate Orpheon, Halberd and Bridge of Eldin are completely legal. (except for D3 and Falco players)

Firestorm88 · Mar 26, 2008

Eten, I don't think a neutral stage has to be completely simple. I think that as long as a stage has a very low amount of hazard (next to none), does not heavily favor one character over another, and supports fighting each other instead of the stage, they should be considered for neutral. I think Halberd, Delfino Plaza, and Castle Siege could fit in there.

Fearmy · Mar 27, 2008

Port Town should be banned...

- No protection against cars

-random air gaps when on moving platform, there are too many

- Tether Recoveries can't latch on moving platform (why is this bad? see above)

waffu · Mar 27, 2008

Fearmy said:
Port Town should be banned...

- No protection against cars

-random air gaps when on moving platform, there are too many

- Tether Recoveries can't latch on moving platform (why is this bad? see above)

1) Move out of the way or find a good platform.

2) They're not random at all.

3) Wouldn't this suggest making it a counter pick?

MzNetta · Mar 27, 2008

As long as hanenbow is banned I will be satisfied.
No main, or decent sized platform to fight on = bfg
Those electroplankton should have never left my ds.

Eten · Mar 27, 2008

Eten, I don't think a neutral stage has to be completely simple. I think that as long as a stage has a very low amount of hazard (next to none), does not heavily favor one character over another, and supports fighting each other instead of the stage, they should be considered for neutral. I think Halberd, Delfino Plaza, and Castle Siege could fit in there.

I do. I really think that, for example, Castle Siege strongly influences projectile based defensive game with the transitions, and statues and sides on the second portion, to the degree that there is a major difference from getting the rest and getting Castle Siege. And while I really really like Halberd and Delfino Plaza, a hazard and the changing locations distracts from what makes a neutral stage a neutral stage. It's a different classification entirely- if we included halberd because the hazard was only minor, why not Pirate ship too? You'd have to decide a really fine line on what makes a hazard too much of a hazard, and the same with Delfino Plaza. All of the neutral stages currently are all extremely consistent with their layout- one main platform w/ a ledge on each side, bottom platform can not be passed through, and then some possible combination of passthrough platforms on the top, and then that's it. I think that constancy belongs to the neutral grouping, greater variety fits in the counterpick grouping.

wWw Dazwa · Mar 27, 2008

Eten said:
It's a different classification entirely- if we included halberd because the hazard was only minor, why not Pirate ship too? You'd have to decide a really fine line on what makes a hazard too much of a hazard, and the same with Delfino Plaza.

From the Halberd topic:

Lazer Beam:
Warning: A gigantic targeting reticule appears over a player at random.
Duration of Warning: 5 seconds
Hazard Strikes: Lazer Locks on the 5th second, and Fires on the 6th second
Hazard Duration: Beam lasts 4 seconds (10 seconds total)

Cannon Ball:
Warning: The Cannon in the background flashes bright red in color and launches a Cannonball upwards
Duration of Warning: 6 seconds
Hazard Strikes: The Cannonball strikes the level after 10 seconds
Hazard Duration: The Cannonball falls from the top of the screen for 4 seconds (10 seconds Total)

Crane Arm:
Warning: A loud Sound-effect cue. The Crane also begins to move erratically while pointing at a player.
Duration of Warning: 8 seconds
Hazard Strikes: Crane strikes at the 10th second
Hazard Duration: 2 seconds (10 seconds total)

Each hazard has a warning of 5 seconds or more, has a very predictable attack trajectory, only 10 seconds of the game are actually spent with that hazard in play, on average, in a 6 minute match, and the hazards don't favor particular characters at all, to a point where if the stage was a counterpick, there'd be no point to pick it.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156874

That thread is a good read and I feel he makes a strong case for Halberd being neutral.

Firestorm88 · Mar 27, 2008

Eten said:
I do. I really think that, for example, Castle Siege strongly influences projectile based defensive game with the transitions, and statues and sides on the second portion, to the degree that there is a major difference from getting the rest and getting Castle Siege. And while I really really like Halberd and Delfino Plaza, a hazard and the changing locations distracts from what makes a neutral stage a neutral stage. It's a different classification entirely- if we included halberd because the hazard was only minor, why not Pirate ship too? You'd have to decide a really fine line on what makes a hazard too much of a hazard, and the same with Delfino Plaza. All of the neutral stages currently are all extremely consistent with their layout- one main platform w/ a ledge on each side, bottom platform can not be passed through, and then some possible combination of passthrough platforms on the top, and then that's it. I think that constancy belongs to the neutral grouping, greater variety fits in the counterpick grouping.

I think the difference between Halberd and Pirate Ship is that Halberd takes little to no thought at all. Pirate Ship requires a much more heightened sense of awareness of the surroundings. For Halberd, you don't even have to pay attention to the laser or the moving ball as there's really no chance of it hitting you. Halberd's stage layout is actually very similar to Yoshi's Island.

I like Castle Siege and Delfino for a reason similar to Pokemon Stadium's status in Melee. Due to the changing terrain, no one character has an advantage the entire map. First level has a platform. Second level has statues to block projectile spam. Third level is completely flat. Delfino is more varied, but same concept.

Eten · Mar 27, 2008

Noo I'd counterpick it as ZSS. The bottom of the stage can be passed through, meaning I can come up from under with a uair, and it's short enough from side to side that I can go underneath the whole stage and just tether back up the other.

I.T.P · Mar 27, 2008

ok, after reading most of the thread, and playing more of the levels in my own copy of the game, I've decided on the following list for our next tourney.

Neutral:

Smashville
Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium 1
Lylat Cruise
Yoshi's new island
Frigate Orpheon
Delfino plaza
Castle Seige

Counter Pick:

Hanebow
Great Sea
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise
Luigi's Mansion
The Halberd
Norfair
Brinstar
Pokemon Stadium 2
Corneria.

Banned: the rest, because of wall infinites, D3 chains, sheer size or randomness -> this covers allmost all of them, the rest are just overexaggerated hazards.

Cynan Machae · Mar 27, 2008

About castle siege being neutral... I was more in that camp, but yesterday I encoutered some kind of a bug with the last transformation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ycj1OUdUEs (at the end of the video)

I'm not saying it should be banned, I'm not even sure if this kind of glitch is reproducicble or if it has already been shown and people know how to avoid it. But would it happen in an important match, it would be quite bad.

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