Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

Inkslinger · Apr 13, 2007

bah, others have stated stuff that's good to consider, but wiseguy is too stubborn. i would love to get into specifics, but no time at the moment.

freeman123 · Apr 13, 2007

Wiseguy
I'll try to explain this in the simplest possible terms.

I don't know anything you don't. I'm just making educated guesses based on the available facts. Let's look at those facts.

Ganondorf was included as a Captain Falcon clone in Melee. This made no sense, given that the two charcaters have nothing in common other than that they are roughly the same size and shape, but including the character was so important and time was so valuable that Sakuarai chose to include him as a clone rather than not at all.

I don't know whether Midna will be included or not. All I'm saying is that Sakuarai may be forced to make a similar decision and include Minda as a clone rather than not at all. It's just a guess. Don't bite my head off.

Look, I don't know how else to explain this to you. I'm not arguing with the idea of Midna being a clone, I'm telling you that they aren't going to add Twili Midna & not add Midna. They could very well add Twili Midna, but that'll only happen if they add Midna first.

Wiseguy
Black Mage didn't appear on Sakuarai's poll.

Who cares? Those aren't the only people that can be in the game.

Wiseguy
And you might like Final Fantasy best, but in Japan other series like Dragon Quest are more popular.

I don't like Final Fantasy at all. I don't play any Square Enix games, so that gives me the least biased perspective on them.

Wiseguy
*Sigh*. In my original post. I said that since Twilight Princess was not released until Brawl was already in development, she was probably not part of Sakurai's original plan. That's why all things aren't equal and he may have to put in Midna as a clone if at all.

Wasn't TP in deveolpment for like 3 or 4 years before they even started on Brawl? And I don't think they plan all the characters before they start making the game.

Wiseguy
As soon as POSSIBLE. That doesn't mean now, it as soon as they can get the game finished.

If they wanted it ASAP, they could have rushed it & had it done by now. It might not have been good, but if they're in a hurry like you think then they could have done it.

Thrillhouse-vh. · Apr 13, 2007

Chief Mendez said:
Man, I haven't been this entertained since...well, I've never been this entertained, actually.

Me neither.

Wiseguy said:
Your not going to let this go, are you?

how ironic

Chief Mendez · Apr 14, 2007

I'm with freeman123: opposed to the idea that TP's development timetable had/has a bearing on Midna being in Brawl. It's simply not true.

The world was introduced to Midna back in '05, and if they started production on Brawl that same year, then I don't see why they wouldn't've at least looked over Midna as a possible candidate. And you can bet they would go look again after all the positive reception the character's gotten since November (assuming they hadn't already decided for her).

Inkslinger and hemightbegiant: don't hate the player, hate the game.

Wiseguy · Apr 14, 2007

freeman123 said:
Look, I don't know how else to explain this to you. I'm not arguing with the idea of Midna being a clone, I'm telling you that they aren't going to add Twili Midna & not add Midna. They could very well add Twili Midna, but that'll only happen if they add Midna first.

Fair enough. You think that because Imp Midna was the form Midna took through the entire game, its the form that people most associate with the charcater and therefore the form that Sakuurai would consider, above all others, putting in Brawl. I don't diasagree.

However, you seem to admit to the possibility that she may have to be included as a clone, due to time constraints. Obviously, we don't know if this is the case, but supposing it was how could this be done?

Personally, I think including Twili Midna would be a great way of paying tribute to the charcater, with or without Imp Midna. Time will tell, but my guess is that since Twili Midna would be easier to clone than her Imp form, that is the more likely scenario.

freeman123 said:
Who cares? Those aren't the only people that can be in the game.

You're right. Being absent from the poll does not rule out that a charcater will appear. However, I think that Square Enix games deserve a representative of some kind and Sora's presence on the poll indicates that he was at least considered, however briefly, for Brawl. I don't really know enough about either Black Mage or Sora or determine whether one is better with the other, so I'm going with the one on the poll.

freeman123 said:
I don't like Final Fantasy at all. I don't play any Square Enix games, so that gives me the least biased perspective on them.

Sorry, my mistake. Ironically, I don't play Square Enix games either.

freeman123 said:
Wasn't TP in deveolpment for like 3 or 4 years before they even started on Brawl? And I don't think they plan all the characters before they start making the game.

That sounds about right.

But for planning, I would imagine that Sakuarai must have had some idea when he was starting out which potential charcaters were on the table. All I'm saying is if Sakurai mistook Midna for just another Navi-like-sidekick before the release of the game and the full importance of the charcater wasn't revealed to him until after the game was released, Midna may find herself left out of the game or cloned.

freeman123 said:
If they wanted it ASAP, they could have rushed it & had it done by now. It might not have been good, but if they're in a hurry like you think then they could have done it.

Maybe, maybe not. We just don't know how far along the game is in development. All I'm saying is that with all game development, there must be a balancing act between making the best game possible and preasure by the suits to release as soon as possible. Nintendo is a bussiness, first and foremeost, so they will take the course that makes them the most money.

Chief Mendez said:
I'm with freeman123: opposed to the idea that TP's development timetable had/has a bearing on Midna being in Brawl. It's simply not true

The world was introduced to Midna back in '05, and if they started production on Brawl that same year, then I don't see why they wouldn't've at least looked over Midna as a possible candidate. And you can bet they would go look again after all the positive reception the character's gotten since November (assuming they hadn't already decided for her).

Inkslinger and hemightbegiant: don't hate the player, hate the game.

I'm not positive how much development studios within Nintendo communicate on their games. Maybe Sakuarai was fully aware of Midna's importance in TP from the begginning. Or maybe he only knew that she was going to be Link's sidekick and assumed that she was another minor character like Navi. If the later is true, then Sakuarai might have elimated Midna as a possibility early on and only reconsidered her after the release of TP revealed her to be the most important character in the game.

If that's the case, then it could have a bearing on whether Midna gets in Brawl or not.

Johnknight1 · Apr 14, 2007

I agreed with the first part Wiseguy, but here are some things I disagree on.

Missing:

Wolf: He's been in SF longer than Krystal, and is a staple in the series. SF has done well with Fox and Falco, and I see 4 SF characters happening (Fox, Falco, Krystal, and Wolf). You can disagree with me, but watever.

Dixie: Simply one of the most desired character, and probably one of the ten most wanted SSBB characters. DK franchise is the #8 selling franchise of all-time, so 4 characters (DK,
Diddy, K Rool, Dixie) isn't out of the question.

Bomberman: IDC about Simon, plus he's better. He doesn't have too good of chances though.

Wolf Link w/t Midna: Simple TP revolves around this a lot. Minda (Twili-form) doesn't stand a chance if Wolf Link w/t Midna isn't in SSBB. Also note Zant has a good shot, much better than Midna's.

Staffy: Probably one, if not the only Japan only character with a great shot. I don't know much about him, but watever.

Paper Mario: He's got 3 (4 if you include Super Mario RPG) games out, and is one of the most wanted characters, easily.

Should be dropped from your list:

Simon: I don’t give a care about this fool, and as much as I like the Castlevania series, he's got littte hope. Sakurai's SSBB website even states that 2-3 3rd party characters are expected. Bomberman is wanted way more than this guy, and is far more popular. Plus the Blue Bomber himself could bump Simon easily.

Midna: She’s in like 10 seconds of the game in that form! Wolf Link w/t Midna and Zant are far mor wanted than this character by a gigantic margin, and if there is clones in SSBB I'll be mad as hell! Change all clones to originals/make all newcomers originals!

Sora is not going to happen (my inner KH fan in me isn’t happy, even if Roxas owns him), considering Square is still with Sony. Plus I wouldn't see him work, considering all the powers and stuff he gets in KH 1, 2, and CoM. Then again, I never really expected Mewtwo.

Poo: He isn’t in it, Lucas is, so kick him out. He's got little hope, and Lucas has all the hope in the world (hopefully without dropping Ness).

Black Knight: Him as a clone (or anyone for that matter), I would not see them at all when it comes to SSBB! Try Hector instead, who is a bigger and more important character. Still, BK has some chance, but there are Sooooo many wanted FE characters, it is crazy, and you never know.

Cut From the SSB Series On Wiseguy's List:

Doc: He's probably gone, though I would like it if Nintendo added him as a Mario costume, preferably with Vacinnes instead of Fireballs (but still do the exact same thing).

G&W: Retro and original and saying he is too old=retarted. I am next to positive he is in, and if he would in SSBB that would make many people very happy. Not too many people main off him, but he is still good and is in tons of games, including Wario Ware and G&W Gallery (which is for both GBC and GBA).

IC: You would be surprised with this one. Saying they have no shot of returning (not saying anyone did) is pretty stupid. they are simply very retro, original, and I think they are actually the most original characters to come to the series.

You would be surprised how many people would be upset with their removal, and how many pros main off them, even if they are considered low-tier characters most of the time.

Mewtwo has two movies, and is simply the most important Pokemon next to Pikachu. He just sucked in SSBM, that’s all. Also expect 5 Pokemon characters. Pokemon=#2 selling series of all time (only behind Mario). Two movies, 2nd most popular Pokemon (probably), and is simply a staple in the Pokemon series.

Mewtwo and Mew are probably the two most powerful Pokemon, and there is next to no chance of their removal. Nintendo probably bagged a few $10-$25 million dollars off the two movies easily, and that with his popularity and power (which he lacked in Melee) should and most likely will keep him in for good.

Marth will go when hell freezes over, him and Falco were top tier. Plus he’s in two FE game, and only Ike himself did that. Dumping him would leave most pros without their best charater, and Japan absolutely loves him, from animes, to a show I believe.

Japan would go nuts without him, as would the rest of us. Dumping him all in all would be a extremely idiotic move by Sakurai and Nintendo. Considering the two are genius as oppose to stupid, expect to see Marth return.

Roy could go either way, and I really don't know about this one. The FE fans I know don't like him that much as many other FE charaters. The SSBM fans like him a lot (despite being a clone), and many would like to see him return.

He's basically in the middle, but will he return or go? Saying he has a 100% chance to return/leave (not saying anyone in specific) is just plain retarted, period.

Shiek is a little bit more towards the door then Roy. She's not important to the entire LOZ series, but considering OOT's popularity, you never know. She definitely has a better chance than Twili-form Midna (almost anyone does, she is about as important as the mailman), but again same thing that happened with Roy.

I don't think it is wise to say she is 100% gone/returning, but she's definetely leaning more towards leaving.

Pichu: Most hated SSBM character by a long shot! If it returns (i heavily doubt it though), hopefully it won't be a clone at all! But even more importantly it will stop killing itself with self-damage, and actually fight good. It is basically a weaker Pickachu (no offense) that hurts itself, and as little chance as it has to return, if it does expect drastic redoing.

YLink: Probably changed to WW Link, considering I doubt any 2-D Link has any chance. Also YLink from OOT and MM is a bit old, and WW Link is also going to be in Phantom Hourglass. Also anyone who says the graphic styel (cel-shaded) won't work, you are idiots!

Check out Kirby, he looks cel-shaded, now doesn't he? So with that said, I jsut destroyed anyone who doesn't want him in because of graphic style. If anyone doubts his originality, I'll own them too, and show them how wrong they are.

All in all here is what I have to say. 7 characters gone=no chance! If that happens so many SSB fans will be mad, and Nintendo would have massive problems. Saying 7 characters are gone isn't smart at all, and thinking 7 characters are gone is stupid, especially Mewtwo (no offense).

As much as I would like to see everyone return (the clones decloned, which returning clones decloned would own), I don't see it happening. Still, strictly speaking Sakurai said that SOME characters might not return! Some characters probably will be removed, but that definely gives us something to think about.

Still 7 removals, god that would be stupid. Do I have to go oveer the fanbase issues Nintendo would have? 5 removals has a slight chance of happening, any more has no chance in hell, unless Nintedeno and Sakurai want to drown themselves (sarcasically, but true).

Nintendo would virtual lose any hope of even being 12 steps behind Microsoft (or even Sony) this gen of gaming, and would blow their top selling last gen game out of the water, with little chance of a 4th SSB game.

5 cut has little, if any chance, 4 cuts has a bit of chance, 2 or 3 cuts have the best chances, 1 has quite a chance, 0 has well more than 5, lol. Seriously, 7 cuts is not going to happen, ever, zilch chance!

Other than that (and Simon or Sora, in which they would ruin the SSB formula), I agree with Wiseguy. I give you a well hmm...a 80% accuracy. I agree with most, but some of the cuts were just illogical, and don't make sense.

Good thread, and good ideas, but I also think the roster can be bigger (fingers crossed, just as long as quality above quanity). IMO 40+ is to be expected, 45+ has a good chance, and well anything less has little or no chance. 50+ characters has a minimal chance, but you never know (just as long as they all own)!

Good work Wiseguy!

Wiseguy · Apr 14, 2007

Thanks for taking the time to go through my charcater predictions, Johnknight1. I may sound a bit stubborn in my views sometimes, but I do value constructive criticisms.

However, I'm sure you won't be surprised to learn that I repectfully disagree with some of your points:

Johnknight1 said:
I agreed with the first part Wiseguy, but here are some things I disagree on.

Missing:

Wolf: He's been in SF longer than Krystal, and is a staple in the series. SF has done well with Fox and Falco, and I see 4 SF characters happening (Fox, Falco, Krystal, and Wolf). You can disagree with me, but watever.

Dixie: Simply one of the most desired character, and probably one of the ten most wanted SSBB characters. DK franchise is the #8 selling franchise of all-time, so 4 characters (DK,
Diddy, K Rool, Dixie) isn't out of the question.

Bomberman: IDC about Simon, plus he's better. He doesn't have too good of chances though.

Wolf Link w/t Midna: Simple TP revolves around this a lot. Minda (Twili-form) doesn't stand a chance if Wolf Link w/t Midna isn't in SSBB. Also note Zant has a good shot, much better than Midna's.

Staffy: Probably one, if not the only Japan only character with a great shot. I don't know much about him, but watever.

Paper Mario: He's got 3 (4 if you include Super Mario RPG) games out, and is one of the most wanted characters, easily.

1) I appreciate that Starfox is a popular potential character on Smashboards, but I just can't see it happening. The Starfox series is great and all, but does it deserve the same level of representation as the Pokemon and Metroid series? I don't think so.

Giving that there is unlikely to be more than 45 charcaters in Brawl, I think 3 Starfox charcaters is fair. Wolf may have been in one more game than Krystal, but I don't see him bringing anything new to Smash Bros. that Fox and Falco don't. Krystal is guaranteed to have a uniquw moveset.

2) Dixie is a fine charcater choice, but once again, I think 4 DK charcaters is a bit optimistic. I don't particularily like K. Rool, but he is still far more deserving than Dixie.

3) Bomerman will not be in Brawl bacause he is incredibly boring. Link, Young Link, Samus and Snake already have movesets with explosives. Simply put, Bomerman brings nothing new to the game.

4) Wolf-link is an interesting choice. I would like to see him included as a transformation of Link, but I somehow doubt it will happen. Still you never know.

5) Staffy is Japanese only, so he is unworthy. How would Japanese gamers feel if John Madden was included in Brawl?

Paper Mario rocks! I would love to include him, but 6 mario charcaters (not including Yoshi, Wario and Geno) would be pushing it, in my view.

Johnknight1 said:
Should be dropped from your list:

Simon: I don’t give a care about this fool, and as much as I like the Castlevania series, he's got littte hope. Sakurai's SSBB website even states that 2-3 3rd party characters are expected. Bomberman is wanted way more than this guy, and is far more popular. Plus the Blue Bomber himself could bump Simon easily.

Midna: She’s in like 10 seconds of the game in that form! Wolf Link w/t Midna and Zant are far mor wanted than this character by a gigantic margin, and if there is clones in SSBB I'll be mad as hell! Change all clones to originals/make all newcomers originals!

Sora is not going to happen (my inner KH fan in me isn’t happy, even if Roxas owns him), considering Square is still with Sony. Plus I wouldn't see him work, considering all the powers and stuff he gets in KH 1, 2, and CoM. Then again, I never really expected Mewtwo.

Poo: He isn’t in it, Lucas is, so kick him out. He's got little hope, and Lucas has all the hope in the world (hopefully without dropping Ness).

Black Knight: Him as a clone (or anyone for that matter), I would not see them at all when it comes to SSBB! Try Hector instead, who is a bigger and more important character. Still, BK has some chance, but there are Sooooo many wanted FE characters, it is crazy, and you never know.

1) You may not like Belmont, but I would say his chances are greater than any other third party charcater. He starred in the first Castelvania game, he's own by Konami (just like Snake) and he appeared on Sakurai's poll. His use of medieval weaponry would also make him far more unique than Bomerman.

Blue Bomber? Oh yeah, you mean Megaman right? he's on my list too.

2) Join the club. Everyone seems to prefer Imp Midna. But, as I'm growing tired of pointing out, Twili Midna would be far easier to include as a Zelda clone.

3) Square Enix is not "with" Sony. If so, how do you explain Dragon Quest IX exclusively on the DS (DQ is the most popular series past or present in Japan) or how about Mario Basketball being made by Square Enix, which included Final Fantasy charcaters?

I'm not sure how Sora would behave in Brawl (never played his games) but his presence on the poll was enough for me to include him as the Square Enix rep.

4) I've never played Earthbound, but Poo seems like the likeliest candidate. As for Mother 3 characters, I hope none are included. It would just be rubing salt in the wounds of non-Japanese gamers who will likely never get to play it.

5) If they have time, then yes Sakurai's team will likely include a more unique character like Hector. But, time being of the esense, I'm going to predict he will go with the charcater that can be more easily cloned from Ike's moveset. That would be BK.

Johnknight1 said:
Cut From the SSB Series On Wiseguy's List:

Doc: He's probably gone, though I would like it if Nintendo added him as a Mario costume, preferably with Vacinnes instead of Fireballs (but still do the exact same thing).

G&W: Retro and original and saying he is too old=retarted. I am next to positive he is in, and if he would in SSBB that would make many people very happy. Not too many people main off him, but he is still good and is in tons of games, including Wario Ware and G&W Gallery (which is for both GBC and GBA).

IC: You would be surprised with this one. Saying they have no shot of returning (not saying anyone did) is pretty stupid. they are simply very retro, original, and I think they are actually the most original characters to come to the series.

You would be surprised how many people would be upset with their removal, and how many pros main off them, even if they are considered low-tier characters most of the time.

Mewtwo has two movies, and is simply the most important Pokemon next to Pikachu. He just sucked in SSBM, that’s all. Also expect 5 Pokemon characters. Pokemon=#2 selling series of all time (only behind Mario). Two movies, 2nd most popular Pokemon (probably), and is simply a staple in the Pokemon series.

Mewtwo and Mew are probably the two most powerful Pokemon, and there is next to no chance of their removal. Nintendo probably bagged a few $10-$25 million dollars off the two movies easily, and that with his popularity and power (which he lacked in Melee) should and most likely will keep him in for good.

Marth will go when hell freezes over, him and Falco were top tier. Plus he’s in two FE game, and only Ike himself did that. Dumping him would leave most pros without their best charater, and Japan absolutely loves him, from animes, to a show I believe.

Japan would go nuts without him, as would the rest of us. Dumping him all in all would be a extremely idiotic move by Sakurai and Nintendo. Considering the two are genius as oppose to stupid, expect to see Marth return.

Roy could go either way, and I really don't know about this one. The FE fans I know don't like him that much as many other FE charaters. The SSBM fans like him a lot (despite being a clone), and many would like to see him return.

He's basically in the middle, but will he return or go? Saying he has a 100% chance to return/leave (not saying anyone in specific) is just plain retarted, period.

Shiek is a little bit more towards the door then Roy. She's not important to the entire LOZ series, but considering OOT's popularity, you never know. She definitely has a better chance than Twili-form Midna (almost anyone does, she is about as important as the mailman), but again same thing that happened with Roy.

I don't think it is wise to say she is 100% gone/returning, but she's definetely leaning more towards leaving.

Pichu: Most hated SSBM character by a long shot! If it returns (i heavily doubt it though), hopefully it won't be a clone at all! But even more importantly it will stop killing itself with self-damage, and actually fight good. It is basically a weaker Pickachu (no offense) that hurts itself, and as little chance as it has to return, if it does expect drastic redoing.

YLink: Probably changed to WW Link, considering I doubt any 2-D Link has any chance. Also YLink from OOT and MM is a bit old, and WW Link is also going to be in Phantom Hourglass. Also anyone who says the graphic styel (cel-shaded) won't work, you are idiots!

Check out Kirby, he looks cel-shaded, now doesn't he? So with that said, I jsut destroyed anyone who doesn't want him in because of graphic style. If anyone doubts his originality, I'll own them too, and show them how wrong they are.

1) As much as I would like Doc to appear in sme form, I can't see it happening. Too time consuming for such a minor charcater.

2) G&W is cool, but why include him at the expense of new charcaters? Remeber, 45 is the maximum.

3) Yeah, ICs are the most original charcater in the series to be sure. But IC fans can always try new original charcaters like Olimar.

4) I don't care about the Pokemon Movies friend. I suppose Mewtwo could return at the expense of someone like Lucario, but would you really want that? Personally, I want more newcomers in Brawl.

5) Then I hope the devil knows how to skate, because Marth most definitely deserves to be cut. He hasn't appeared in a Fire Emblem game in over a decade and he has yet to appear in a single internationally released FE game. His appearance and fighting style are just too similar to Ike's (who definitely deserves to return) so I don't see why they would both be included with unique movesets. Marth may be cool beans in Japan, but Ike was in the most recent games as was ranked number one on the Japanese poll. Sorry, but he's as good as gone.

6) Ditto on Roy.

7) No, there is no reason to include Sheik, whatsoever. She has not appeared in a single game since OoT.

Everything else, we are in complete agreement.

Johnknight1 said:
All in all here is what I have to say. 7 characters gone=no chance! If that happens so many SSB fans will be mad, and Nintendo would have massive problems. Saying 7 characters are gone isn't smart at all, and thinking 7 characters are gone is stupid, especially Mewtwo (no offense).

As much as I would like to see everyone return (the clones decloned, which returning clones decloned would own), I don't see it happening. Still, strictly speaking Sakurai said that SOME characters might not return! Some characters probably will be removed, but that definely gives us something to think about.

Still 7 removals, god that would be stupid. Do I have to go oveer the fanbase issues Nintendo would have? 5 removals has a slight chance of happening, any more has no chance in hell, unless Nintedeno and Sakurai want to drown themselves (sarcasically, but true).

Nintendo would virtual lose any hope of even being 12 steps behind Microsoft (or even Sony) this gen of gaming, and would blow their top selling last gen game out of the water, with little chance of a 4th SSB game.

5 cut has little, if any chance, 4 cuts has a bit of chance, 2 or 3 cuts have the best chances, 1 has quite a chance, 0 has well more than 5, lol. Seriously, 7 cuts is not going to happen, ever, zilch chance!

I understand what you're saying, but I couldn't disagree more. Unless Sakurai has the corage to axe as many charcaters as he possibly can, Brawl will be nothing more than Melee with a new paint job. If all the charcaters from Melee returned, then it will be at the expense of adding new charcaters like Captain Olimar and Geno.

I think you are grossly overreacting when you say that fans would revolt if their favorate charcater is cut from Brawl. My all time favorite character id Dr. Mario, but there is no way I could boycott Brawl when he is inevitably inlcuded. I'm too excited about the new charcaters that will be included.

What you seem to want is Super Smash Bros. Melee 2.0 while I'm looking forward to an entirely new Smash Bros. experience.

Johnknight1 said:
Other than that (and Simon or Sora, in which they would ruin the SSB formula), I agree with Wiseguy. I give you a well hmm...a 80% accuracy. I agree with most, but some of the cuts were just illogical, and don't make sense.

Good thread, and good ideas, but I also think the roster can be bigger (fingers crossed, just as long as quality above quanity). IMO 40+ is to be expected, 45+ has a good chance, and well anything less has little or no chance. 50+ characters has a minimal chance, but you never know (just as long as they all own)! Good work Wiseguy!

While I'm not a fan of Castelvania or Kingdom Hearts, I disgree that they would ruin the "formulae" of Smash Bros. Conventional wisdom would never have expected Snake to appear, but look how that turned out. I think it would be best if gamers of all tastes could enjoy Brawl.

Anyway, sorry if I sounded too heavy handed. I really enjoyed hearing your comments. I too hope for as many charcaters in Brawl as possible and no doubt the end produt will defy both our expectations. Glad you enjoyed my thread.

Thrillhouse-vh. · Apr 14, 2007

Wiseguy said:
5) Staffy is Japanese only, so he is unworthy. How would Japanese gamers feel if John Madden was included in Brawl?

That point is irrelevent due to obvious reasons.

Johnknight1 · Apr 14, 2007

Wiseguy said:
While I'm not a fan of Castelvania or Kingdom Hearts, I disgree that they would ruin the "formulae" of Smash Bros. Conventional wisdom would never have expected Snake to appear, but look how that turned out. I think it would be best if gamers of all tastes could enjoy Brawl.

Anyway, sorry if I sounded and no doubt the end produt will defy both our expectations. Glad you enjoyed my thtoo heavy handed. I really enjoyed hearing your comments. I too hope for as many charcaters in Brawl as possible read.

KH has little, if any chance of having a rep. If any Square character was to make it, they would be from FF 1-6, or the new Dragon Quest games (the series is headed to the DS and Wii), which probably won't happen since they'll probably come out after Brawl.

Sora would ruin the formula for SSBB, unless they totally weakened him down like they did to Mewtwo. Then again, Mewtwo sucked so that isn't a good idea. My b when I accidentally included Castlevania characters in it.

Intresting, you want to cut the characters from older games and Japan only games primaraly, I just noticed that. Is that conisidense or is for other reason?

As for the Staffy deal, many Western people want Staffy as the only Japan only character. You would be surprised how many I've seen, and Sakurai only said something along the line of it is most likely there won't be many (if any) Japan only characters.

For the 45+ character deal, it is possible, but 40+ (maybe like 40-44) is probably going to be the number of characters in SSBB. I think 40+ is easily possible, considering:

-disks for the Wii are normal sized (finally Nintendo makes normal sized disks)

-SSBB will be a Wii exclusive, unless a DS version of the game is made

-SSBM added 14 characters, why can't SSBB do about as much?

-Wii has way more memory than GC memory cards

-Time is not limited, only evidence we have with time is "Prepare to Brawl 2007". With that said, LOZ TP was soooo many months delayed! Miyamoto is supervising it and he doesn't care when the games he overlook is done, just if they are perfected.

Time is not of the essense, but perfection is. As Miyamoto says ""A delayed game is eventually good; a bad game is bad forever" I think that sums it up, and since SSBM was the GC's best seller, you get the point, Nintendo won't be afraid to delay it. Thus 40+ high quality characters isn't so crazy.

-The game is still in the BETA form. Needless to say anything can be changed, updated, or totally redone easily.

-Keeping and redoing characters is easier than getting new ones. That could fit more characters.

Now considering FE 1 & 3 are the only FE games Marth is in, he is the star of them, and they are Japan only, I bet my money that Nintendo will have them available in the West for the Virtual Console. That is wat will also probably happen to most of the FE to never reach the West, if not all of them.

Roy has a better shot because the FE game he stared in was a internationally released game. That puts him about 50/50 IMO of leaving/returning.

Popular characters are going to stay just because they are popular. Out with the old and in with the new isn't a great strategy. Instead, the SSSBB team is taking the out with the crap, redo and remake the old into brand new, and in with the new approach that most agree with (though I say redo the crap as well into good new stuff ie: Pichu).

The reason Shiek has a chance at returning is she is original, she is used a lot on the pro circuit and her removal would probably hurt the SSBB tourney circuit a bit. The same thing with Roy and Marth, in which pros will not be happy, and thus hurting the SSBB toruney circuit, thus the SSBM tourney circuit would be played more.

If Shiek, Roy, IC, and Marth were removed, all that would be left for pros are Fox, Falco, and a few others that are minorly used. Thus the SSBB major tourney circuit won't as big as it could be, and the SSBM major tounrey cicuit could rival in size. So if all 4 were to leave, most pros would be mad, (or happy if they hate using them/get owned by them).

I'm no expert on the SSBM major tourney circuit (only been to a few major tourneys), but I know that Fox, Falco, Shiek, Roy (not as much), Marth, and IC is wat the majority of the big players main off. With only Fox and Falco, well the Fox vs. Falco matchup could get old fast, and we wouldn't want that.

These are definitely some factors to considering when making SSBB that I am sure Sakurai and the SSBB project team are working on to keep the ginat tourney circuit running. You would be surprised how big the pro tourney circuit is (any of us would be), the only bigger console game tourney circuit I think is Halo 2 itself.

That is how big it is, and that is why Sakurai can't forget about people who are heavily dedicated to getting better at Smash, for Sakurai has to consider the pros, hardcore fans (me=yae!), moderate fans, newer players, and future ssb in developing the game. All Sakurai has to do is do that, keep the pressure off, and we'll see the best Smash yet!

DJ Napps · Apr 14, 2007

Im pretty much with u on the list both opinion and probably, but

WHERE IS BOMBERMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

his popularity is good in the US and Japan. He has an incredible movest (look at the Bomberman thread) and an interesting item (Sickness Skull). And he is not boring, so plz dont rate him on ur opinion.

Otherwise u have a good opinion and ur list will mostly likely come tru

Fawriel · Apr 15, 2007

Johnknight, I don't think Nintendo will pay attention to the characters people use in tournaments. I understand that Sheik players will be like "I wants my chainthrows back!", but didn't Nintendo say that they want to make the game more balanced... they are going to mess around with the movesets and everything anyway. It's been rather explicitly implied in a mail by Sakurai, that "some moves will be weaker".
Besides, the whole tier list was turned upside-down when Melee came out. Pikachu, Kirby and Ness suddenly went to the bottom, Jigglypuff went higher, and basically most characters handled a lot differently. In fact, the whole game was pretty different.
So... I don't think they will pay attention to who's strong and who isn't. Would be unfair anyway. The possibility of inclusion must not depend on power.. otherwise, they could just make Mewtwo and Ganondorf as strong as they logically WOULD be and thus enable them to kill stuff in one or two moves.

Chepe · Apr 15, 2007

Very fun and interesting to read, but I cant agree with some of your choices for cuts:

Mewtwo: Holds a title in the series as "most powerful Pokemon". Is also the closest character to a villain in the Pokemon franchise. He has an original moveset that only needs to be buffed, and if you really believe Jigglypuff would make it in before Mewtwo (the original 12 shouldnt be a reason to exclude Mewtwo). Im a Pokemon fan myself, and Im very sure that Mewtwo would have in over Jigglypuff should one of them be cut...

Ice Climbers and Game & Watch: I havent read the whole thread, but Im sure that you have gotten a lot of complaints about these. Im pretty sure they will return. Why? Original and unique, thats why. Ice Climbers presents something different, and Game & Watch's moveset is just ridiculously perfect for him. Sakurai must have put much thought into these two, and you act like their being retro characters means they cant remain. Well, if Sakurai thought that, then he wouldnt have brought back Pit. Would he really create an original like Pit knowing he would be removing him later? Sakurai likes oddball characters, he said it himself...

I wont get into your additions, I like most of them, but very few show that youre not following the series, like saying Poo would get in over Lucas. All in all a great read, props!

Wiseguy · Apr 15, 2007

Another day, another round of questions and complaints (mostly complaints) so let's get to it:

hemightbegiant said:
That point is irrelevent due to obvious reasons.

I was exagerating with the John Madden thing, but I think my point is valid. There are plenty of awesome charcaters who have been released in Nintendo's two biggest markets (Japan and North America) so it is unnecesary to include characters that are only popular in one region or another. Remember, Sakurai already expressed resevations about including Japanese only charcaters in Brawl.

Johnknight1 said:
KH has little, if any chance of having a rep. If any Square character was to make it, they would be from FF 1-6, or the new Dragon Quest games (the series is headed to the DS and Wii), which probably won't happen since they'll probably come out after Brawl.

Sora would ruin the formula for SSBB, unless they totally weakened him down like they did to Mewtwo. Then again, Mewtwo sucked so that isn't a good idea. My b when I accidentally included Castlevania characters in it.

Why do FF or Dragon Quest deserve a rep more than KH? In those game series, every game is usually self contained, so it would be difficult to find a clear representative.

As for Sora, remember that Samsh is not at all realistic. Do you think Pikachu or Kirby would stand a chance against Samus in a fair fight?

Johnknight1 said:
Intresting, you want to cut the characters from older games and Japan only games primaraly, I just noticed that. Is that conisidense or is for other reason?

As for the Staffy deal, many Western people want Staffy as the only Japan only character. You would be surprised how many I've seen, and Sakurai only said something along the line of it is most likely there won't be many (if any) Japan only characters.

No and Yes. I actually included plenty of new retro charcacters (Geno, Megaman, and Simon Belemont) to replace the ones I removed. As for Japanese only charcaters, I routed them out with extreme prejustice.

Yeah, but how many western gamers want Staffy at the expense of a localized character like Captain Olimar.

Johnknight1 said:
For the 45+ character deal, it is possible, but 40+ (maybe like 40-44) is probably going to be the number of characters in SSBB. I think 40+ is easily possible, considering:

-disks for the Wii are normal sized (finally Nintendo makes normal sized disks)

-SSBB will be a Wii exclusive, unless a DS version of the game is made

-SSBM added 14 characters, why can't SSBB do about as much?

-Wii has way more memory than GC memory cards

-Time is not limited, only evidence we have with time is "Prepare to Brawl 2007". With that said, LOZ TP was soooo many months delayed! Miyamoto is supervising it and he doesn't care when the games he overlook is done, just if they are perfected.

Time is not of the essense, but perfection is. As Miyamoto says ""A delayed game is eventually good; a bad game is bad forever" I think that sums it up, and since SSBM was the GC's best seller, you get the point, Nintendo won't be afraid to delay it. Thus 40+ high quality characters isn't so crazy.

-The game is still in the BETA form. Needless to say anything can be changed, updated, or totally redone easily.

-Keeping and redoing characters is easier than getting new ones. That could fit more characters.

I don't follow, Johnknight1. One the one hand you say that there will most likely be as few as 40 charcaters, on the other you say that you want all of the old charcaters to return and even more new charcaters tham what I am predicting. Please explain how this is possible.

I agree that the game won't be released until Sakurai is convinced it is perfect. But given that Brawl would be the Wii's biggest system seller to date, I think they want to arrive at perfection ASAP.

Please explain how keeping or redoing old charcaters is quicker than adding new charcaters. The game engine is an entirely new one, is it not?

Johnknight1 said:
Now considering FE 1 & 3 are the only FE games Marth is in, he is the star of them, and they are Japan only, I bet my money that Nintendo will have them available in the West for the Virtual Console. That is wat will also probably happen to most of the FE to never reach the West, if not all of them.

Roy has a better shot because the FE game he stared in was a internationally released game. That puts him about 50/50 IMO of leaving/returning.

Popular characters are going to stay just because they are popular. Out with the old and in with the new isn't a great strategy. Instead, the SSSBB team is taking the out with the crap, redo and remake the old into brand new, and in with the new approach that most agree with (though I say redo the crap as well into good new stuff ie: Pichu).

The reason Shiek has a chance at returning is she is original, she is used a lot on the pro circuit and her removal would probably hurt the SSBB tourney circuit a bit. The same thing with Roy and Marth, in which pros will not be happy, and thus hurting the SSBB toruney circuit, thus the SSBM tourney circuit would be played more.

If Shiek, Roy, IC, and Marth were removed, all that would be left for pros are Fox, Falco, and a few others that are minorly used. Thus the SSBB major tourney circuit won't as big as it could be, and the SSBM major tounrey cicuit could rival in size. So if all 4 were to leave, most pros would be mad, (or happy if they hate using them/get owned by them).

I'm no expert on the SSBM major tourney circuit (only been to a few major tourneys), but I know that Fox, Falco, Shiek, Roy (not as much), Marth, and IC is wat the majority of the big players main off. With only Fox and Falco, well the Fox vs. Falco matchup could get old fast, and we wouldn't want that.

These are definitely some factors to considering when making SSBB that I am sure Sakurai and the SSBB project team are working on to keep the ginat tourney circuit running. You would be surprised how big the pro tourney circuit is (any of us would be), the only bigger console game tourney circuit I think is Halo 2 itself.

That is how big it is, and that is why Sakurai can't forget about people who are heavily dedicated to getting better at Smash, for Sakurai has to consider the pros, hardcore fans (me=yae!), moderate fans, newer players, and future ssb in developing the game. All Sakurai has to do is do that, keep the pressure off, and we'll see the best Smash yet!

If Marth and Roy's games were released on virtual console, I might reconsider including them. Unfortunately, they have been available in Japan since launch and Nintendo has made no indication that they will release them anywhere else.

Again, I don't see the issue with cutting old charcaters - even original ones. Including old charcaters will happen at the expense of new charcaters (assuming you are right about the 40-45 character roster). If Smash Bros. is going to grow as a series, then Brawl needs to be more than a remake. It needs to be its own game.

I also don't agree that Sakurai should hold back the series in order to cater to the tastes of fans of high tier charcaters. In order to make a more balanced game, Fox and Falco need to be nerfed into the next century, Marth should be replaced by Ike (who is slower, likely more balanced and certainly less girly) and Sheik should be banished from existance to make way for more worthy charcaters (aka: Midna).

DJ Napps said:
Im pretty much with u on the list both opinion and probably, but

WHERE IS BOMBERMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

his popularity is good in the US and Japan. He has an incredible movest (look at the Bomberman thread) and an interesting item (Sickness Skull). And he is not boring, so plz dont rate him on ur opinion.

Otherwise u have a good opinion and ur list will mostly likely come tru

I read the moveset on the Bomberman thread, and he still seems to rely exclusively on bombs. There are already plenty of characters who already use bombs, so why would we need another?

Thanks for the compliments, glad you enjoyed my predictions.

Chepe said:
Very fun and interesting to read, but I cant agree with some of your choices for cuts:

Mewtwo: Holds a title in the series as "most powerful Pokemon". Is also the closest character to a villain in the Pokemon franchise. He has an original moveset that only needs to be buffed, and if you really believe Jigglypuff would make it in before Mewtwo (the original 12 shouldnt be a reason to exclude Mewtwo). Im a Pokemon fan myself, and Im very sure that Mewtwo would have in over Jigglypuff should one of them be cut...

Ice Climbers and Game & Watch: I havent read the whole thread, but Im sure that you have gotten a lot of complaints about these. Im pretty sure they will return. Why? Original and unique, thats why. Ice Climbers presents something different, and Game & Watch's moveset is just ridiculously perfect for him. Sakurai must have put much thought into these two, and you act like their being retro characters means they cant remain. Well, if Sakurai thought that, then he wouldnt have brought back Pit. Would he really create an original like Pit knowing he would be removing him later? Sakurai likes oddball characters, he said it himself...

I wont get into your additions, I like most of them, but very few show that youre not following the series, like saying Poo would get in over Lucas. All in all a great read, props!

Mewtwo: I'm no Pokemon fan, but how would you feel if you bought Brawl and there was only one new Pokemon charcater? Four charcaters is likely the maximum number of Pokemon that will be put in a roster of 40-45, so which would you rather play as: Mewtwo of Deoxys?

ICs & G&W: Yeah, everyone has been up and arms over these two. Yeah, they were fun as original charcaters, but is playing as them so important to you that you would like them to be included over newer retro charcaters like Geno?

And yeah, Pit deserves to be cut in SSB 4 if he doesn't we don't see a Kid Icarus revival before then.

Lucas: What's so great about Lucas anyway?

Glad you enjoyed reading my thread. all the best.

EDIT: Hey, just a message to all you fine people reading this: I'm tired of hearing "don't cut this charcater" and "why haven't you included this charcater?" I want to hear how you would arrange a 45 charcater roster different than I would. Let's see how many of you are up to the challenge.

FSLMJM · Apr 15, 2007

@Wiseguy

Dude you need to stop always countering other people's opinions on why they don't agree with you. I mean, I just saw a whole bunch of quotes that you had and there were like 6 or 7 in one post. You treat it as if its the end of the world sometimes when someone disagrees and you treat your character list as if it were the most perfect list in the world. It won't kill you if you just accept other peoples opinions. They're just harmless words to you but you overreact all the time. If I made a list, I wouldn't be overreacting if only ONE person didn't agree with it, but it is the other way around in your case.

Owned.

And I am "amazed and astounded" of how junk your list is. You'd probrably counter that one too.

So, I'm just saying that you should just ignore people who disagree with it and maybe edit it if a lot of people want changes in it.

FSLMJM · Apr 15, 2007

Oh, I see that you want other people to make a 45-character list. Here's mine

Mario-8

Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Bowser Jr.
Yoshi (I just put him in there)
Wario (same as Yoshi)
Petey Piranha (very unlikely but I wish...)

Pokemon-4

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Lucario

Kirby-3

Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede

Star Fox-4

Fox
Falco
Wolf
Krystal

DK-3

DK
Diddy Kong
King K. Rool

Zelda-4

Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Vaati

F-Zero-2

Captain Falcon
Deathborne

Metroid-2

Samus/Zero Suit
Ridley

Other Characters-9

Ness
Ice Climbers
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth
Pit
Captain Olimar
Geno
Ike
Felix

3rd Party-3

Snake
Sonic
Crono

Total of 42

K4M1K4Z3 · Apr 15, 2007

good list overall, but i doubt marth and roy will be cut ,seeing as they are very popular in Japan

Johnknight1 · Apr 15, 2007

My 45+ character list

Mario Series (6)

-Mario
-Luigi
-Peach
-Bowser
-Wario (I guess is considered Mario, watever)
-Yoshi (I'll just leave him here in the Mario series)

DK Series (4)

-Donkey Kong
-Diddy Kong
-Dixie Kong
-K. Rool

LOZ Series (5)

-Link
-Wind Waker Link
-Ganondorf (with his sword so he'll stop taunting us!!!

)
-Zelda (with or without Shiek I dunno)
-Wolf Link w/t Midna

Metroid Series (4)

-Samus
-Zamus (two diffrent characters)
-Dark Samus
-Ridley

Kirby Series (3)

-Kirby
-Meta Knight
-King Dedede

Star Fox Series (4)

-Fox
-Falco
-Wolf
-Krystal

Pokemon Series (5)

-Pickachu
-Mewtwo
-Jigglypuff
-Deoxys
-Lucario

Earthbound/Mother Series (2)

-Ness
-Lucas

Fire Embelm Series (3)

-Marth
-Ike
-Black Knight or Roy (I prefer Roy, but watever I'm trying to be realistic)

F-Zero Series (2)

-Capt. Falcon
-Samurai Goroh

Retro Characters (4)

-Mr. G&W
-Pit
-Ice Climbers
-Staffy
-Captain Olimar

3rd Party Characters (3 or 4, one might not make it which one=?, except Snake who is guarenteed)

-Snake
-Sonic
-Megaman
-Geno (he is actually owned by Square Enix)

So here is what I got
Mario (6)
DK (4)
LOZ (5)
Metroid (4)
Kirby (3)
Star Fox (4)
Pokemon (5)
Earthbound/Mother (2)
Fire Emblem (3)
F-Zero (2)
Retro (4)
3rd Parties (3 or 4)

That is 46/47 characters, unless Zamus and Samus are considered the same, in which case it is 45/46 characters. I think most, if not all of my character selections are logical, and I think this is what the final list will end up looking like.

My guess is at most there will be 8 characters on my list not there/diffrent, but it will be very close. Other than that, this list will be pretty accurate IMO. I have other noticable characters with some shot as well as listed below in order by series

Mario (3)

-Bowser Jr./Shadow Mario
-Waluigi
-Daisy (Toad could be included, I like him and all, but his moveset would be hard to make.)

DK (0)

LOZ (2) (not including Shiek, who has about a 30-40% chance to return at best IMO)

-Zant
-Vatti

Metroid (1)

-Sylux

Kirby (0)

Star Fox (0)

Pokemon (1)

-Blazekein

Earthbound/Mother (1)

-Flint

Fire Emblem (1)

-Hector

F-Zero (1)

-Black Shadow (I would consider Blood Falcon, but Blood Falcon is alrdy a Capt. Falcon outfit)

Retro (2)

-Mach Rider
-Balloon Fight

Third Party (a lot)

-Pac-Man (Namco and Nitendo are on good terms, so he has a fair shot)
-Issac
-Simon (proves I'm not being biased right now even if I am biased, lol.)
-Mallow
-Felix
-Other Sonic characters (Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow)
-Crono (he is owned by Square Enix)
-Any new Dragon Quest characters
-Sora (only if Square Enix moves KH III to the Wii or something, otherwise=no chance)

Those are all the logical choices I can think of (there could be a few I forgot, but watever) and few characters (if any) that are not on this list will most likely nbot make it.

Also note that Sakurai is probably just using the same game engine, he just plans on redoing the game completely. Needless to say, looking at SSBM's battle system, it is near perfect, so Sakurai will probably just overall n00bify it, make the ground fighting gameplay a bit slower, and make wavedashing easier.

Hopefully Sakurai also adds more cool advanced fighting/dodging methods. Overall all that is being done is the same thing as was done from SSB 64 to SSBM.

That is, that there were changes in the characters looks/graphics, changing their moves/tweaks, balancing out the characters, add more diversity (hopefully no more clones!), add a few new modes, more heloful and intresting options, more cool features, brand new maps, add new battle features/improved combat system (not much I can think of), add cool new items, and most important, add new, awsome, and well-balanced (by that I mean tiers) characters! That is basically everything that is going to be added to SSBB.

digifreak642 · Apr 15, 2007

The absence of Mewtwo is the largest problem with the list....

Johnknight1 · Apr 15, 2007

digifreak642 said:
The absence of Mewtwo is the largest problem with the list....

I am next to 95% positive Mewtwo will return. No, the bigger problem with Wiseguy's list is there are too many cuts, but even worse is too many 34rd party characters. Simply remove half the cuts, and half the 3rd party characters and you get a very accurate list with just a couple of other flaws. But hey, that is just his two cents on how it should look.

Wiseguy · Apr 15, 2007

FSLMJM said:
@Wiseguy

Dude you need to stop always countering other people's opinions on why they don't agree with you. I mean, I just saw a whole bunch of quotes that you had and there were like 6 or 7 in one post. You treat it as if its the end of the world sometimes when someone disagrees and you treat your character list as if it were the most perfect list in the world. It won't kill you if you just accept other peoples opinions. They're just harmless words to you but you overreact all the time. If I made a list, I wouldn't be overreacting if only ONE person didn't agree with it, but it is the other way around in your case. Owned. And I am "amazed and astounded" of how junk your list is. You'd probrably counter that one too.

So, I'm just saying that you should just ignore people who disagree with it and maybe edit it if a lot of people want changes in it.

Wow man, did I insult your mother without realizing it or something?

Look, I'm not upset that people disagree with my list. I'm enaging in what we in the Brawl character discussion forum like to call "discussion". I'm not intemidated or annoyed by people who disagree with me, I just genuinely enjoy debating the finer points of Smash Bros with people who love the series as much as I do.

Sorry you didn't like my suggestions. I can't please everyone.

And I won't edit the list just becasue people disagree. However, I will consider it if someone gives me a good argument for why I should do so.

FSLMJM said:
Oh, I see that you want other people to make a 45-character list. Here's mine

Mario-8

Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Bowser Jr.
Yoshi (I just put him in there)
Wario (same as Yoshi)
Petey Piranha (very unlikely but I wish...)

Pokemon-4

Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Lucario

Kirby-3

Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede

Star Fox-4

Fox
Falco
Wolf
Krystal

DK-3

DK
Diddy Kong
King K. Rool

Zelda-4

Link
Zelda/Sheik
Ganondorf
Vaati

F-Zero-2

Captain Falcon
Deathborne

Metroid-2

Samus/Zero Suit
Ridley

Other Characters-9

Ness
Ice Climbers
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth
Pit
Captain Olimar
Geno
Ike
Felix

3rd Party-3

Snake
Sonic
Crono

Total of 42

Oh, a Sheik fan. No wonder you hate my guts.

Normally, I would offer an opinion, but you have made it clear that you want everyone on Smash Boards to keep their opinions to themselves.

Good day sir.

K4M1K4Z3 said:
good list overall, but i doubt marth and roy will be cut ,seeing as they are very popular in Japan

Johnknight1 said:
My 45+ character list

Mario Series (6)

-Mario
-Luigi
-Peach
-Bowser
-Wario (I guess is considered Mario, watever)
-Yoshi (I'll just leave him here in the Mario series)

DK Series (4)

-Donkey Kong
-Diddy Kong
-Dixie Kong
-K. Rool

LOZ Series (5)

-Link
-Wind Waker Link
-Ganondorf (with his sword so he'll stop taunting us!!! )
-Zelda (with or without Shiek I dunno)
-Wolf Link w/t Midna

Metroid Series (4)

-Samus
-Zamus (two diffrent characters)
-Dark Samus
-Ridley

Kirby Series (3)

-Kirby
-Meta Knight
-King Dedede

Star Fox Series (4)

-Fox
-Falco
-Wolf
-Krystal

Pokemon Series (5)

-Pickachu
-Mewtwo
-Jigglypuff
-Deoxys
-Lucario

Earthbound/Mother Series (2)

-Ness
-Lucas

Fire Embelm Series (3)

-Marth
-Ike
-Black Knight or Roy (I prefer Roy, but watever I'm trying to be realistic)

F-Zero Series (2)

-Capt. Falcon
-Samurai Goroh

Retro Characters (4)

-Mr. G&W
-Pit
-Ice Climbers
-Staffy
-Captain Olimar

3rd Party Characters (3 or 4, one might not make it which one=?, except Snake who is guarenteed)

-Snake
-Sonic
-Megaman
-Geno (he is actually owned by Square Enix)

So here is what I got
Mario (6)
DK (4)
LOZ (5)
Metroid (4)
Kirby (3)
Star Fox (4)
Pokemon (5)
Earthbound/Mother (2)
Fire Emblem (3)
F-Zero (2)
Retro (4)
3rd Parties (3 or 4)

That is 46/47 characters, unless Zamus and Samus are considered the same, in which case it is 45/46 characters. I think most, if not all of my character selections are logical, and I think this is what the final list will end up looking like.

My guess is at most there will be 8 characters on my list not there/diffrent, but it will be very close. Other than that, this list will be pretty accurate IMO. I have other noticable characters with some shot as well as listed below in order by series

Mario (3)

-Bowser Jr./Shadow Mario
-Waluigi
-Daisy (Toad could be included, I like him and all, but his moveset would be hard to make.)

DK (0)

LOZ (2) (not including Shiek, who has about a 30-40% chance to return at best IMO)

-Zant
-Vatti

Metroid (1)

-Sylux

Kirby (0)

Star Fox (0)

Pokemon (1)

-Blazekein

Earthbound/Mother (1)

-Flint

Fire Emblem (1)

-Hector

F-Zero (1)

-Black Shadow (I would consider Blood Falcon, but Blood Falcon is alrdy a Capt. Falcon outfit)

Retro (2)

-Mach Rider
-Balloon Fight

Third Party (a lot)

-Pac-Man (Namco and Nitendo are on good terms, so he has a fair shot)
-Issac
-Simon (proves I'm not being biased right now even if I am biased, lol.)
-Mallow
-Felix
-Other Sonic characters (Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow)
-Crono (he is owned by Square Enix)
-Any new Dragon Quest characters
-Sora (only if Square Enix moves KH III to the Wii or something, otherwise=no chance)

Those are all the logical choices I can think of (there could be a few I forgot, but watever) and few characters (if any) that are not on this list will most likely nbot make it.

Also note that Sakurai is probably just using the same game engine, he just plans on redoing the game completely. Needless to say, looking at SSBM's battle system, it is near perfect, so Sakurai will probably just overall n00bify it, make the ground fighting gameplay a bit slower, and make wavedashing easier.

Hopefully Sakurai also adds more cool advanced fighting/dodging methods. Overall all that is being done is the same thing as was done from SSB 64 to SSBM.

That is, that there were changes in the characters looks/graphics, changing their moves/tweaks, balancing out the characters, add more diversity (hopefully no more clones!), add a few new modes, more heloful and intresting options, more cool features, brand new maps, add new battle features/improved combat system (not much I can think of), add cool new items, and most important, add new, awsome, and well-balanced (by that I mean tiers) characters! That is basically everything that is going to be added to SSBB.

I have to say I'm impressed. I wasn't expecting you to produce a realistic Brawl roster, but that's exactly what you did. Props.

Personally, I don't consider Yoshi or Wario to be Mario characters, but it's not unreasonable.

I'm intrigued by your inclusion of Wolf-Link. Although I would love to him as a playable character , I can't see him being included over Midna. Still, I would actually to see wolfy as he would bring more originality to the roster.

Overall, you've made a good case for how most of Melee's characters could return and still have a refreshingly new roster. Personally, I think your a little generous with Starfox and Fire Emblem charcaters, but I don't want to nitpick. You did include Olimar and Black Knight after all. simply put, I think this a roster most peopl, including myself, could live with. 8.5/10

Still, I'm sure you're aware that cutting more characters would open the door to more new ones. As much as I enjoy playing as Ice Climbers , I would be more excited at the prospect a new characters like Bowser Jr., Crono, or Balloon Fighter. I also think that Animal Crossing fans would feel a bit cheated without a representative in Brawl. I realize not everyone feels that way, but I stand by my prediction that we will see a lot of Melee characters cut.

digifreak642 said:
The absence of Mewtwo is the largest problem with the list....

There are a lot more Mewtwo fans out there than I originally thought. I'm giving serious consideration to cutting Deoxys and putting back Mewtwo. Four Pokemon is the maximum we can expect, in my view.

Black/Light · Apr 15, 2007

Humm, coo looking list for the most part.

I, as I have said on the Midna thread, think Midna should be in her Imp form but be able to transform into her Twili form like Samus into Zero (a one shot transformation). And Twili Midna should have her trident and wouldn't be a clone of Zelda (why would she be a Zelda clone if Zelda uses er TP Sword?).

I don't think Sakurai would have to play TP in order to know how important Midna is. . . he only has to talk to TP's dev (who was the person who, more than less, pushed him to do brawl according to Sakurai's dojo site). According to Sakurai he started playing TP in Nov. . . but he already knew that TP Link doesn't use magic (as seen with Link's new B^ (no magic used in it)).

And Mewtwo is the only real pokemon villian. . . he will be back.

Edit- Pokemon is the 2nd highest selling series ever. . . . only behind Mario. There will be more than 4 pokemon.

FSLMJM · Apr 15, 2007

@ Wiseguy

Look at you overreacting again. Are you saying that just because I don't mind having Sheik back in Brawl that I hate your guts? And go ahead and tell your opinion on why Sheik shouldn't be in. Just to let you know that I'm no Sheik fan. Gosh, some people jump to conclusions so quickly its amazing. It seems that the Miis have a better chance of making it in... It's obvious that you have issues with Sheik or something. And it seems that you're are noob for again quoting every message that disagrees with you. Like your last post had like 5 quotes in it. Sounds to me like you're protecting your list from something like it was the end of the world.

"I'm engaging in what we in the Brawl character discussion forum like to call discussion".

Doesn't seem like that to me. I saw you going after this one guy just because he didn't agree with a number of things on your list.

"Sorry you didn't like my suggestions."

And a whole lot of other people don't.

digifreak642 · Apr 15, 2007

Now I may not agree with a lot of wiseguy's picks (axing mewtwo, Mii, no Toad) but its no reason to attack him. He may not have a very popular list, but neither does McFox (Paras? jk.). Let's not become enemies. Why don't you too agree that you have different ideas and that either of you could be right.

FSLMJM · Apr 15, 2007

digifreak642 said:
Now I may not agree with a lot of wiseguy's picks (axing mewtwo, Mii, no Toad) but its no reason to attack him. He may not have a very popular list, but neither does McFox (Paras? jk.). Let's not become enemies. Why don't you too agree that you have different ideas and that either of you could be right.

Ok sorry bout that.

But you may have to look both ways on this one, look at his post against me.

Johnknight1 · Apr 15, 2007

Wiseguy said:
I have to say I'm impressed. I wasn't expecting you to produce a realistic Brawl roster, but that's exactly what you did. Props.

Personally, I don't consider Yoshi or Wario to be Mario characters, but it's not unreasonable.

I'm intrigued by your inclusion of Wolf-Link. Although I would love to him as a playable character , I can't see him being included over Midna. Still, I would actually to see wolfy as he would bring more originality to the roster.

Overall, you've made a good case for how most of Melee's characters could return and still have a refreshingly new roster. Personally, I think your a little generous with Starfox and Fire Emblem charcaters, but I don't want to nitpick. You did include Olimar and Black Knight after all. simply put, I think this a roster most peopl, including myself, could live with. 8.5/10

Still, I'm sure you're aware that cutting more characters would open the door to more new ones. As much as I enjoy playing as Ice Climbers , I would be more excited at the prospect a new characters like Bowser Jr., Crono, or Balloon Fighter. I also think that Animal Crossing fans would feel a bit cheated without a representative in Brawl. I realize not everyone feels that way, but I stand by my prediction that we will see a lot of Melee characters cut.

There are a lot more Mewtwo fans out there than I originally thought. I'm giving serious consideration to cutting Deoxys and putting back Mewtwo. Four Pokemon is the maximum we can expect, in my view.

Ty but I just noticed I forgot Tom Nook as a retro/other character possiblity, but he wouldn't be in my final roster, lol! Bowser Jr. isn't as poopular as he should be, and I actually originally had him on the list, but I took him off out of wanting Olimar more).

If I added someone else (only if all 4 3rd party characters made it), Bowser Jr. would have made it, followed by Ballon fight and Mach Rider, who were also originally on that list, but removed for better characters.

I don't expect any Animal Crossing characters (I am a Animal Crossing fan), but a course would be nice and pretty kick but! All I would want is a AC course and I would be happy, but hey I understand where some of the AC fans are coming from, but it doesn't really have a fighter, other than Mr. Resetti who I would prefer, lol but he is a mol=ya.

I might again want to remind you that Mewtwo is probably the second most popular Pokemon (why not Blastoise???=

=

). Considering the whole Pokemon is the #2 selling series of all time, with Mewtwo as the second most popular character=ya.

Crono would get in as a Square Enix 3rd party rep (never played any Crono games, but they look pretty good), but I think that Geno is the most wanted Sqaure Enix owned character. If Geno wasn't owned by Square, I could actually see Crono happening, but because of this I doubt he'd make the final roster.

Plus the fact I doubt any 3rd party company will get two reps. That is why Simon, Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow have low chances on my list, because Konami already has Sanke, and Sega will probably have Sonic, and Nitendo will want to have room for other 3rd party companies to have reps, instead of favoring just one 3rd party company over all the others.

I still have to disagree, because SSBB can't be a totally orignial game because it could throw the series off. It can however, have a tons of new and highly original content, make attack speeds generally more even (ie: Marth attacks super fast, Bowser attacks slowly=no offense), add easier ways to get out of grabs, and add new combos on seemingly endless amount of combos.

Also the wavedashing and waveshining will probably be n00bified, and air combat will become a lot more important, and really required almost as much as ground combat, were Melee was mainly ground based combat.

The tier list balanced could be worked a bit, and hopefully no uber powerful chcaracters this time. There weren't uber powerful characters in SSBM, and I think fear of uber powerful characters is why Sakurai made Mewtwo so weak. Then again, I bet even Sakurai didn't exppect the tournies to be so big now (2nd biggest console tourny game only behind Halo 2), or the skill levels to reach anywhere near what it is.

With Sakurai now aware of how high skill levels and SSBM toruney are, he'll definitely work on the balance more, so you can cross that problem off=no true uber powerful characters. Hopefully Sakurai looks at SSBM tourneys and see which characters are big, why, and who needs to be worked on, and were they need to be worked on.

While I agree the game needs to be changed, you seem to want the game to be more drastically changed, while I just want some tweaks here and there and a bit better tier balance. I don't mean to sound rude, but I would love keeping the IC and G&W, and we should respect the classic characters. But hey, that is just my two cents. :joyful:

Chief Mendez · Apr 15, 2007

Where is this "Mewtwo=2nd most popular PKMN" crap coming from, huh? There's no worldwide census out there asking which Pokemon is more popular than the others.

You might think that he's cool (so do I), but don't place made-up labels where they don't belong...please.

Eratangos · Apr 15, 2007

I think Bomberman should be in and here is why:
1. Have appeared in over 25 titles on nintendo consoles and appearing on new games on wii and ds.
2. one of few 3rd party character to appear in a nintendo game (wario blast)
3. Is an unique character that will have a unique moveset. There are a large number of different bombs in bm universe and anyways basically we are looking at four unique bomb moves. Check movesets for creative uses . Bomb usage will be a lot more varied than Link's and Snake's usage. All its A attacks will not not be bombs, but like usual kicks, jabs, and a (big fat) headbutt. In this way, he is better than the FE characters which have sword, sword, sword, sword and sword as all their A and B attacks. So having link have one attack with bombs should not hold bomberman off. Link having arrow and sword attacks didn't stop Pit from coming in, nor would his sword stop the FE characters from being in the game.
5. Hudson has good relations with Nintendo. This is an understated factor. Hudson is laying one golden egg for Nintendo after another with its mario party games so if Hudson asks or "begs", Nintendo will find it hard to reject.
6. Character has made an impact in early gaming history and is one of the more well known icons of gaming.

Btw....Great list Wiseguy. I think I agree with everything else about who should be in other than twili midna just imp midna would be good for me.

Chief Mendez · Apr 16, 2007

You've got some strong points, but...is Bomberman popular at all? When you think of Bomberman, most probably imagine a 2D grid/maze with lots of bombs. What you don't think of is characters, plot, and setting. Bomberman has always lacked any character depth, and Hudson's still looking. They have not succeeded.

Case in point...Bomberman: Act Zero.

Eratangos · Apr 16, 2007

Yes, I do believe you are right. I just didn't put in the equation of character development into the argument. But then Mr. G&W, Ice climbers made it into SSBM. Maybe their lack of character development is part of reason they might be going? It was an exaggeration on my part that it was one of most popular gaming icons, but I do believe if you pick 1000 people out of street on random around 10 years ago when popularity was highest and see if he/she recognizes a pic of bomberman, bomberman will score higher than most video game characters.

Chief Mendez · Apr 16, 2007

Eratangos said:
...Mr. G&W, Ice climbers made it into SSBM. Maybe their lack of character development is part of reason they might be going?

...I do believe if you pick 1000 people out of street on random around 10 years ago when popularity was highest and see if he/she recognizes a pic of bomberman, bomberman will score higher than most video game characters.

Then the question becomes: will those people who recognize him recall fond memories and good times...or just know who he is?

I still don't know how Ice Climbers, of all things, got into Melee. Game & Watch is a Nintendo artifact...in a good way, and was included mainly for his historical significance, however unknown.

It's just, with only 3 or so spaces for non-Nintendo characters...I don't see Bomberman squeezing out the other, bigger names like Sonic, Megaman, and someone from Namco.

Also, Hudson isn't the biggest company...and it doesn't hold enough influence over companies like Namco and Capcom.

Sculelos · Apr 16, 2007

Chief Mendez said:
Then the question becomes: will those people who recognize him recall fond memories and good times...or just know who he is?

I still don't know how Ice Climbers, of all things, got into Melee. Game & Watch is a Nintendo artifact...in a good way, and was included mainly for his historical significance, however unknown.

It's just, with only 3 or so spaces for non-Nintendo characters...I don't see Bomberman squeezing out the other, bigger names like Sonic, Megaman, and someone from Namco.

Also, Hudson isn't the biggest company...and it doesn't hold enough influence over companies like Namco and Capcom.

I dunno, Bomberman would gain a spot on the smash brothers list simply based on his retroness if It where me, and Hudson and Nintendo are really tight so he's almost a 2nd party char, thats why I think he is a possible characture.

As for the characture himself he would be able to do many unique things with Bombs, and he could have a great moveset.

^B= Tornado Bomb, Bomberman chucks a bomb that when exploded would suck Bomberman and any other nearby into it, would work as a recovery move and would be controllable like Yoshi's.

B>= Quickly Throws a Bomb forward.

B= Pulls out a Bomb, could be pumped more massive damage (45%)

Down B = Does a rapid forward kick that would turn people and objects into rolling projectiles, if holding a bomb while the move is performed he would kick it instead, wouldn't be able to kick fully pumped bombs though.

AAA= Punch, Punch, Kick.
A> Smash = Forward punch, would shoot a very small amount of fire out of his hands.
A^ Smash = Headsmash, hits enemies up with his huge head.
Av Smash = Does a Twirly on his head that knocks enimies to the side.
A> = Standard forward kick
A^ = Uppercut similar to Mario's
Av = Does a short kick.
Forward Tilt = Slide on his belly

Ariel A = Kick
Ariel AUp = Backflip
Ariel ADown= Downkick
Arial A Foward = Headsmash

**** I think I like this moveset enough to post it in the Bomberman thread.

Fawriel · Apr 16, 2007

For some reason, I take the challenge. 45 is rather unrealistic, though, so... here's 42 for you.

In the beginning, I've cut 4 characters:
-Doc: For obvious reasons; he can return as a costume.
-Pichu: Too unimportant, was possibly just added for symmetry to go with the other clones (sorry, I like him myself).
-Sheik: Zelda will most likely be TP'd, so no Sheik for her.
-Roy: Unlike Marth, he does not have the benefit of super-popularity.

Now the actual list:

Mario universe:
Mario: Well, yeah.
Luigi: He's pure awesomeness. Leave him unchanged, Nintendo!
Bowser: In fact, I think he should be even slower and even much more powerful, so mindgames will actually pay out. ^^
Peach: nerf plz?
Paper Mario: This was a tough choice. The Mario universe is important, but only has so many important characters. Excluding sub-universes, they'd be left with fewer characters than others... Paper Mario seems different enough to be a valid choice, considering Doc was considered separate from Mario as well.
(sub-universes: )
Yoshi: I tell you, there are at least, say, THREE Yoshi players.
Wario: So, like, will he still be available as a Mario costume?

Pokemon:
Pikachu: Pika pi, pipipi!
Jigglypuff: She was one of the first indeed, so too many people would end up missing her... hm.
Mewtwo: After years of residing in the rock bottom of the tier list, it occurs that he should start taking the battles seriously... and he wants your blood...
Lucario: I hear this fella is popular, and he seems important, so he's a likely contender.
Gardevoir: Yeah, I know. But she was on the poll, she's popular, a third-generation representative, and would really add something, I believe...
( Poor little second generation. )

Legend of Zelda:
Link: Now at least they have an excuse for focussing on the adult one. Children rock, dammit! *shakes fist*
Zelda: I hear she plays an important role in the series. ( And she's SO PRETTY in TP. And they might actually make her usable this time! Wow! )
Young Link/Wind Waker Link: This is why I didn't say they'd remove Young Link. Honestly, do you think they'd actually call him "Wind Waker Link" in the game? That would be beyond weird.
Ganondorf: They are dreads, dreads I say!
Midna: Everybody loves Midna. I forecast the imp-form, too, since she's simply the form associated with Midna.

Kirby:
Kirby: Make him more like Jigglypuff, Nintendo! We all know who's the TRUE king of the air!
Metaknight: The eyes... the eeeeyyyyeeees...
King DeDeDe: Oh HELL YES!!!

Donkey Kong:
Donkey Kong: Best taunt in history.
Diddy Kong: I think he should suffice as a sidekick for the DK. Sure, it's a popular franchise, but there's a reason why it's called "Donkey Kong", most other characters just aren't important enough. But! I can really see him working out as an Ice Climbers type of character with Dixie, since their game relies on cooperation and Diddy alone seems rather frail...

Metroid:
Samus: Pssst.

She's a GIRL! O_O

Zero Suit Samus: Why do I even comment on the confirmed ones?
Ridley: Now here's a character who's important and would really ADD something to the game. Sakurai would do good to add him.

Star Fox:
Fox: I don't care about Pikachu, this guy's up-smash is just unrealistic.
Falco: Yeah, no real reason to cut him. Although, maybe Fox's new design implies something...?
Krystal: Sex sells, and she's bought.

Earthbound:
Ness: I hope our little friend's going to notice that he equipped the wrong Yoyo last time.
Lucas/Flint: Yaaaaay! Well, one of these. Lucas seems too much like Ness, and Flint is Lucas' father... Anyway, I heard that they added Roy partially in order to advertise a game of his. Who knows, maybe they'll decide to bless our Western lands with Earthbount goodness after all?

Fire Emblem:
Marth: Masses of people cry out towards the skies in agony, crying tears of blood, in an alternate universe where Nintendo cut Marth.
Ike: Everybody seems to want him. Why not.

F-Zero:
Cap'n: The most popular serial rapist ever to remain un-imprisoned will continue his exploits, hopefully with a more obvious weakness this time.
Samurai Goroh: He seems popular enough, I gave every other major franchise at least two reps, and he definitely seems cooler than the Cap'n.

retro/others:
Icies: No reason to cut them, I'd say. We love our Icies!
Game&Watch: You can't get more old-school and representative than him.
Pit: \o/
Olimar: I don't know much about Pikmin or this guy, but he seems plausible and interesting enough.
Balloon Fighter: I really don't know about this guy, but they seem to seriously have considered him, so who knows.

third partyyyyyyyyyy:
Snake: Durrrrrrrrh.
Sonic: According to Wikipedia, some Nintendo person said that it wasn't planned to include Sonic. But he was European, so don't trust him.
Crono: The one character I'm the least sure about. Will Square be repped at all, and if so, is Crono the best choice? I really don't know, but he seems to be a plausible candidate. I still hope for Terra, though. Or maybe Klonoa ( not Square-Enix )?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that's it. Whew.

Icetrash · Apr 16, 2007

WHy would you take out G&W, IC's and Mewtwo Wiseguy? They are all unique characters and I dont think they should be taken out.

Chief Mendez · Apr 16, 2007

Icetrash said:
WHy would you take out G&W, IC's and Mewtwo Wiseguy? They are all unique characters and I dont think they should be taken out.

Try reading the first post before asking that.

Wiseguy · Apr 16, 2007

Hello all. Miss me?

Black/Light said:
Humm, coo looking list for the most part.

I, as I have said on the Midna thread, think Midna should be in her Imp form but be able to transform into her Twili form like Samus into Zero (a one shot transformation). And Twili Midna should have her trident and wouldn't be a clone of Zelda (why would she be a Zelda clone if Zelda uses er TP Sword?).

I don't think Sakurai would have to play TP in order to know how important Midna is. . . he only has to talk to TP's dev (who was the person who, more than less, pushed him to do brawl according to Sakurai's dojo site). According to Sakurai he started playing TP in Nov. . . but he already knew that TP Link doesn't use magic (as seen with Link's new B^ (no magic used in it)).

And Mewtwo is the only real pokemon villian. . . he will be back.

Edit- Pokemon is the 2nd highest selling series ever. . . . only behind Mario. There will be more than 4 pokemon.

Hey Black/Light, thanks for taking a break from agruing with Mendez on the Midna Thread to read my predictions. (Joke. That was a joke.)

As much as I would love to see both versions of Midna in the game, I just don't see it happening. If they have time for a unique moveset, I'm expecting Imp Midna. If not, Twili Midna as a Zelda clone. You are correct about the sword thing. For Midna to be her clone, Zelda would have to use exclusively light magic.

You could be right about Sakurai and Twilight Princess. I was just hypothisizing. Although, I don't recall any magic in Link's up-b in Melee.

Maybe Mewtwo will return. Maybe he won't. Personally, I've played enough of the Melee charcaters to last a lifetime.

FSLMJM said:
Ok sorry bout that.
But you may have to look both ways on this one, look at his post against me.

Don't worry about it. I have tough skin.

In all fairness, maybe I was a bit too overzealous in expressing myself before. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Johnknight1 said:
Ty but I just noticed I forgot Tom Nook as a retro/other character possiblity, but he wouldn't be in my final roster, lol! Bowser Jr. isn't as poopular as he should be, and I actually originally had him on the list, but I took him off out of wanting Olimar more).

If I added someone else (only if all 4 3rd party characters made it), Bowser Jr. would have made it, followed by Ballon fight and Mach Rider, who were also originally on that list, but removed for better characters.

I don't expect any Animal Crossing characters (I am a Animal Crossing fan), but a course would be nice and pretty kick but! All I would want is a AC course and I would be happy, but hey I understand where some of the AC fans are coming from, but it doesn't really have a fighter, other than Mr. Resetti who I would prefer, lol but he is a mol=ya.

I might again want to remind you that Mewtwo is probably the second most popular Pokemon (why not Blastoise???== ). Considering the whole Pokemon is the #2 selling series of all time, with Mewtwo as the second most popular character=ya.

Crono would get in as a Square Enix 3rd party rep (never played any Crono games, but they look pretty good), but I think that Geno is the most wanted Sqaure Enix owned character. If Geno wasn't owned by Square, I could actually see Crono happening, but because of this I doubt he'd make the final roster.

Plus the fact I doubt any 3rd party company will get two reps. That is why Simon, Tails, Knuckles, and Shadow have low chances on my list, because Konami already has Sanke, and Sega will probably have Sonic, and Nitendo will want to have room for other 3rd party companies to have reps, instead of favoring just one 3rd party company over all the others.

I still have to disagree, because SSBB can't be a totally orignial game because it could throw the series off. It can however, have a tons of new and highly original content, make attack speeds generally more even (ie: Marth attacks super fast, Bowser attacks slowly=no offense), add easier ways to get out of grabs, and add new combos on seemingly endless amount of combos.

Also the wavedashing and waveshining will probably be n00bified, and air combat will become a lot more important, and really required almost as much as ground combat, were Melee was mainly ground based combat.

The tier list balanced could be worked a bit, and hopefully no uber powerful chcaracters this time. There weren't uber powerful characters in SSBM, and I think fear of uber powerful characters is why Sakurai made Mewtwo so weak. Then again, I bet even Sakurai didn't exppect the tournies to be so big now (2nd biggest console tourny game only behind Halo 2), or the skill levels to reach anywhere near what it is.

With Sakurai now aware of how high skill levels and SSBM toruney are, he'll definitely work on the balance more, so you can cross that problem off=no true uber powerful characters. Hopefully Sakurai looks at SSBM tourneys and see which characters are big, why, and who needs to be worked on, and were they need to be worked on.

While I agree the game needs to be changed, you seem to want the game to be more drastically changed, while I just want some tweaks here and there and a bit better tier balance. I don't mean to sound rude, but I would love keeping the IC and G&W, and we should respect the classic characters. But hey, that is just my two cents.

Interesting points of view. I particularily agree on modifying the combat and balancing the tier list. No matter what the final roster looks like, it will be no doubt be incredible.

Eratangos said:
I think Bomberman should be in and here is why:
1. Have appeared in over 25 titles on nintendo consoles and appearing on new games on wii and ds.
2. one of few 3rd party character to appear in a nintendo game (wario blast)
3. Is an unique character that will have a unique moveset. There are a large number of different bombs in bm universe and anyways basically we are looking at four unique bomb moves. Check movesets for creative uses . Bomb usage will be a lot more varied than Link's and Snake's usage. All its A attacks will not not be bombs, but like usual kicks, jabs, and a (big fat) headbutt. In this way, he is better than the FE characters which have sword, sword, sword, sword and sword as all their A and B attacks. So having link have one attack with bombs should not hold bomberman off. Link having arrow and sword attacks didn't stop Pit from coming in, nor would his sword stop the FE characters from being in the game.
5. Hudson has good relations with Nintendo. This is an understated factor. Hudson is laying one golden egg for Nintendo after another with its mario party games so if Hudson asks or "begs", Nintendo will find it hard to reject.
6. Character has made an impact in early gaming history and is one of the more well known icons of gaming.

Btw....Great list Wiseguy. I think I agree with everything else about who should be in other than twili midna just imp midna would be good for me.

You make a compelling case for Bomberman. I never doubted his status as a gaming icon. As a charcater, he ranks up there with Mario and Megaman. My problem with him is that with competition being so stiff in the third party department, Bomberman's moveset wouldn't bring anything new to the series.

In addition to three charcaters that already use Bombs, there will undoubtibly be bomb items and exploding stage hazzards.

However, there is hope. My predictions were compiled under the assumption that Sega, Square Enix and Capcom could be convinced to sign off on including their characters in Brawl. We have no evidence to support this.

The one company that we know will include their charcaters: Konami. And, wouldn't you know it, Hudson is owned by the very same company. If the only third party charcaters Sakurai has to work with are Nintendo's, Konami's and Hudson's then Sonic, Megaman, Sora and even Geno are off the table. That means the final third party roster could be: Snake, Simon Belmont, Bomerman and Bonk.

Sculelos said:
I dunno, Bomberman would gain a spot on the smash brothers list simply based on his retroness if It where me, and Hudson and Nintendo are really tight so he's almost a 2nd party char, thats why I think he is a possible characture.

As for the characture himself he would be able to do many unique things with Bombs, and he could have a great moveset.

^B= Tornado Bomb, Bomberman chucks a bomb that when exploded would suck Bomberman and any other nearby into it, would work as a recovery move and would be controllable like Yoshi's.

B>= Quickly Throws a Bomb forward.

B= Pulls out a Bomb, could be pumped more massive damage (45%)

Down B = Does a rapid forward kick that would turn people and objects into rolling projectiles, if holding a bomb while the move is performed he would kick it instead, wouldn't be able to kick fully pumped bombs though.

AAA= Punch, Punch, Kick.
A> Smash = Forward punch, would shoot a very small amount of fire out of his hands.
A^ Smash = Headsmash, hits enemies up with his huge head.
Av Smash = Does a Twirly on his head that knocks enimies to the side.
A> = Standard forward kick
A^ = Uppercut similar to Mario's
Av = Does a short kick.
Forward Tilt = Slide on his belly

Ariel A = Kick
Ariel AUp = Backflip
Ariel ADown= Downkick
Arial A Foward = Headsmash

**** I think I like this moveset enough to post it in the Bomberman thread.

Hmm... assuming the conditions I just mentioned were met, this moveset could work. But with competition like Simon Belemont and Sonic, I'm not sure he has a prayer.

Fawriel said:
For some reason, I take the challenge. 45 is rather unrealistic, though, so... here's 42 for you.

In the beginning, I've cut 4 characters:
-Doc: For obvious reasons; he can return as a costume.
-Pichu: Too unimportant, was possibly just added for symmetry to go with the other clones (sorry, I like him myself).
-Sheik: Zelda will most likely be TP'd, so no Sheik for her.
-Roy: Unlike Marth, he does not have the benefit of super-popularity.

Now the actual list:

Mario universe:
Mario: Well, yeah.
Luigi: He's pure awesomeness. Leave him unchanged, Nintendo!
Bowser: In fact, I think he should be even slower and even much more powerful, so mindgames will actually pay out. ^^
Peach: nerf plz?
Paper Mario: This was a tough choice. The Mario universe is important, but only has so many important characters. Excluding sub-universes, they'd be left with fewer characters than others... Paper Mario seems different enough to be a valid choice, considering Doc was considered separate from Mario as well.
(sub-universes: )
Yoshi: I tell you, there are at least, say, THREE Yoshi players.
Wario: So, like, will he still be available as a Mario costume?

Pokemon:
Pikachu: Pika pi, pipipi!
Jigglypuff: She was one of the first indeed, so too many people would end up missing her... hm.
Mewtwo: After years of residing in the rock bottom of the tier list, it occurs that he should start taking the battles seriously... and he wants your blood...
Lucario: I hear this fella is popular, and he seems important, so he's a likely contender.
Gardevoir: Yeah, I know. But she was on the poll, she's popular, a third-generation representative, and would really add something, I believe...
( Poor little second generation. )

Legend of Zelda:
Link: Now at least they have an excuse for focussing on the adult one. Children rock, dammit! *shakes fist*
Zelda: I hear she plays an important role in the series. ( And she's SO PRETTY in TP. And they might actually make her usable this time! Wow! )
Young Link/Wind Waker Link: This is why I didn't say they'd remove Young Link. Honestly, do you think they'd actually call him "Wind Waker Link" in the game? That would be beyond weird.
Ganondorf: They are dreads, dreads I say!
Midna: Everybody loves Midna. I forecast the imp-form, too, since she's simply the form associated with Midna.

Kirby:
Kirby: Make him more like Jigglypuff, Nintendo! We all know who's the TRUE king of the air!
Metaknight: The eyes... the eeeeyyyyeeees...
King DeDeDe: Oh HELL YES!!!

Donkey Kong:
Donkey Kong: Best taunt in history.
Diddy Kong: I think he should suffice as a sidekick for the DK. Sure, it's a popular franchise, but there's a reason why it's called "Donkey Kong", most other characters just aren't important enough. But! I can really see him working out as an Ice Climbers type of character with Dixie, since their game relies on cooperation and Diddy alone seems rather frail...

Metroid:
Samus: Pssst.

She's a GIRL! O_O

Zero Suit Samus: Why do I even comment on the confirmed ones?
Ridley: Now here's a character who's important and would really ADD something to the game. Sakurai would do good to add him.

Star Fox:
Fox: I don't care about Pikachu, this guy's up-smash is just unrealistic.
Falco: Yeah, no real reason to cut him. Although, maybe Fox's new design implies something...?
Krystal: Sex sells, and she's bought.

Earthbound:
Ness: I hope our little friend's going to notice that he equipped the wrong Yoyo last time.
Lucas/Flint: Yaaaaay! Well, one of these. Lucas seems too much like Ness, and Flint is Lucas' father... Anyway, I heard that they added Roy partially in order to advertise a game of his. Who knows, maybe they'll decide to bless our Western lands with Earthbount goodness after all?

Fire Emblem:
Marth: Masses of people cry out towards the skies in agony, crying tears of blood, in an alternate universe where Nintendo cut Marth.
Ike: Everybody seems to want him. Why not.

F-Zero:
Cap'n: The most popular serial rapist ever to remain un-imprisoned will continue his exploits, hopefully with a more obvious weakness this time.
Samurai Goroh: He seems popular enough, I gave every other major franchise at least two reps, and he definitely seems cooler than the Cap'n.

retro/others:
Icies: No reason to cut them, I'd say. We love our Icies!
Game&Watch: You can't get more old-school and representative than him.
Pit: \o/
Olimar: I don't know much about Pikmin or this guy, but he seems plausible and interesting enough.
Balloon Fighter: I really don't know about this guy, but they seem to seriously have considered him, so who knows.

third partyyyyyyyyyy:
Snake: Durrrrrrrrh.
Sonic: According to Wikipedia, some Nintendo person said that it wasn't planned to include Sonic. But he was European, so don't trust him.
Crono: The one character I'm the least sure about. Will Square be repped at all, and if so, is Crono the best choice? I really don't know, but he seems to be a plausible candidate. I still hope for Terra, though. Or maybe Klonoa ( not Square-Enix )?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that's it. Whew.

I have to admit, your predictions are actually more realistic than mine (sadly, 3 third parties is likely all we can expect) and yeah, 42 is probably more likely.

While I agree that the Metroid and DK series could potentially get as few charcaters as you predicted, I don't think it quite does them justice (although that doesn't mean it won't happen.)

Interesting and witty comments as well. I'll give your roster 8.7/10

Still, just because Melee's charcaters are fun charcaters doesn't mean I want to play as them for another 7 years. I want as many gone as possible, and hopefully Sakurai feels the same way. The more new characters the better.

Icetrash said:
WHy would you take out G&W, IC's and Mewtwo Wiseguy? They are all unique characters and I dont think they should be taken out.

Do me a favor. Visualize your all time favorite charcater for Brawl. I don't care if it' realistic or not, just do it.

O.k. Well, let's suppose that Sakurai is going to include the character, complete with an awesome moveset and a taunt that infuriates your opponent to tears whenever you beat them in a match.

Sakuarai has a team dream up, and begin to design a move set for your character. Everything is proceeding smoothly until...

THE HORROR! The suits at Nintendo say they want Brawl realeased pronto. Time is running out. They don't have the time to include all the Charcaters they wanted. What to do?

It comes down to either including your favorite character or Mr. Game & Watch. Sure, he hasn't starred in a significant game since, well, ever and we've all played him to death in Melee, but he was in Melee so he must return. Sure he's unique, but so your favorite charcater. What to do.

Fast forward to Brawl's release. Mr. Game & Watch is in. Your favorite isn't.

That's why.

i8waffles612 · Apr 16, 2007

Wait...arent Zamus and Samus two seperate characters.. Look you can choose to play with either one? iN other worrds, arent they NOT like Zelda and Sheik?

Wiseguy · Apr 16, 2007

Runners Up: Part 1

Although you’ve already heard my best guess as to what the final roster will be, I’ve only touched on the multitude of possible characters that could make the cut. Here’s my take on the rest of the contenders out there:

Mario Series:

1) Waluigi

Status: Not Impossible

Comments: In an odd sort of way, I can see the appeal of having Waluigi playable. For a generic combination of Luigi and Wario, he has quite a bit of personality and he brings some humor to the Mario Party and Sports games.
But let’s be realistic: the only games that Waluigi has appeared in are spinoffs of the main series (ie: party games, sports games, kart racing, etc.) not a single one of which is part of the main series cannon. Until we see Wario and Waluigi: Partners in Crime, this character has “Assist Trophy” written all over him.

2) Toad

Status: Most Likely Deconfirmed

Comments: Sorry fungus lovers, but being a part of Peach’s moveset bodes poorly for his being a playable character – which is hardly surprising considering his diminished importance to the series in recent years. Nothing is 100% until it is officially stated by Sakurai, but I think it’s safe to say that Toad’s spot in the graveyard thread is well deserved.

3) Paper Mario

Chances: Probable

On Sakurai's Poll: No

Comments: Paper Mario is, in my humble opinion, the definitive Mario. He stared in the
some of the greatest Mario games to date (Paper Mario 64, Paper Mario 2: The Thousand
Year Door and Super Paper Mario) all of which blended brilliant writing with addictive
gameplay.

With the iminent removal of my personal favorite character in Melee, Dr. Mario, I think
adding another Mario clone in his place would be a great idea. Paper Mario's cape would
likely be replaced by his signature hammer attack and he would likely be far more of a
light weight. They could also go even farther and give him the ability to transfrom
into a paper airplane as a triple jump and the like. Regardless, including PM would
carry on the tradition of spoiling Mario players such as myself.

4) Shy Guy

Commander Blitzkrieg said:
Status: Not impossible

A famous enemy of the Mario series, Shy Guy has made many appearences throughout the years. Shy Guy's many occupations (spear thrower, helicoptor man, interpretive dancer, fat guy, pickle, etc), he seems to have potential for a very nice moveset. Shy Guy's chances lay somewhere at about a 35% chance.

Zelda Series:

1) Skull Kid

Status: Possible

Comments: Twilight Princess is the greatest Zelda game ever, no question. But story wise,
Majora's Mask is still my favorite Zelda. Rather than recycle the same tired storyline
about Zelda, Gannon and the Triforce (as most of the other games have been content to
do...) Majora's Mask stands out from the pack with a mind-blowing, ultra-bizarre plot
worthy of an episode of the Twilight Zone. The evil moon, the Groundhog's Day-esque
time travel mechanic, the brilliantly original side quests (ALIENS ABDUCTING COWS!!!!)
and Termania's many creepy and memorable inhabitants - not the least of which being the
main villian: Skull Kid.

Casting the obscure side quest character from OoT as Link's nemesis was a brilliant move,
to say the least. A character shrouded in mystery and oozing personality, Skull Kid
added a lot to the game. He may not be as evil as Ganondorf, but after he seemingly
killed my horse and turned me into a useless Deku Scrub I never felt more motivated to
hunt down and kill a videogame character. His role in Twilight Princess was also
memorable and is one of my favorite parts of the game.

Sadly, I wouldn't bet on Skull Kid appearing as a playable character. Majora's Mask is
among the most under rated Zelda games ever and it's not exactly a recent release. They
could go with the character's Twilight Princess version, but it just doesn't have the
same potential for a killer moveset as the Majora's Mask wearing villain he once was.
However, a Skull Kid assist trophy is a definite possibility.

2) Vaati

Status: Possible

Comments: Technically, Vaati is the second most prominent villain in the Zelda series after Ganon himself. However, this title is pretty dubious considering the three games to his name are Four Swords (a mini game in the GBA version of ALttP), Four Swords Adventures (the least popular game in the series as it required the Gamecube game, four GBAs and four link cables to play. Lame.), and Minish Cap (which is excellent). Throw in the fact that he doesn’t appear at all in the newer, more popular Phantom Hourglass or Twilight Princess and I eriously doubt the character’s chances.

3) Tingle

Status: Most Likely Deconfirmed

Comments: Sorry Tingle fans, but when your trophy is depicted alongside a Bulborb, a Nintendog and a Bannana things don’t look too good. I hope, at least, to see the character return as a stage hazard in a Windwaker themed stage, at least.

4) Zant

Comments: And the award for most hilarious boss fight goes to…
You could argue that Zant is actually the main villain in Twilight Princess.
You could argue it, but you’d be wrong. Anyway, Zant may be unlikely as a playable
character but he’s just well known enough to qualify as an AT.

5) Happy Mask Salesman

Status: HMS’s chances about equal to that of Numa Dude and Sakurai being the same
person.

Comments: We all have weird character choices that we would love to see if Brawl. A
character that makes us think “Brawl would be perfect if [insert character] were
included.” Of course, more often than not, even suggesting such a character often makes
one’s peers question your sanity. Whether it be Paras, King Trode or Master Chief we all
harbor one of these dream characters that we would love to see appear, but have roughly
zero chance. The Happy Mask Salesman is such a character.

HMS is probably the most unique, eerie individual in the entire Zelda series. Where did
he come from? Why does he have a Mario mask? Why doesn’t he EVER stop smiling? Is it
true that he was inspired by Shigeru Miamoto? Undoubtedly, HMS would have an incredibly
unique moveset, though his chances are next to nil.

There you are Numa Dude. Now please release my family unharmed.

6) Fierce Diety Link

Status: Not impossible

Comments: Personally speaking, Fierce Diety Link represents one of my all time favorite
moments in gaming. I would love to see him included as a playable character - but
truthfully there is almost zero chance of that.
However, when Nintendo follows my advice and creates a Twilight Princess/Majora's Mask
crossover sequel where TP Link has to save Termania from the tyranical grip of the
dreaded Fierce Diety (aka: the Hero of Time) he
will basically be a shoe in for SSB4. Hey, it could happen.

Pokemon Series:

1) Lucario

Status: Possible

Comments: I’m not the best person to argue for or against Lucario, but he must have some merits because he has been the most requested Pokemon for the playable roster for some time. The reason I decided to cut the character from my list is simple: with three characters probably returning and Pokemon Trainer confirmed the series already has four spots on character selection screen and a whopping six unique playable characters (taking into account the Pokemon Trainer’s three movesets). Throw in the dozens of Pokeball characters and it becomes clear the series is bound to have the most representation in Brawl out of all the franchises. I don’t think yet another playable Pokemon can be justified in a 40 character roster.

Pokeball Predictions: http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2477025&postcount=760

Kirby Series:

1) Everyone other than King Dedede

Status: Unlikely

Comments: The fact that Kirby was the lone representative of his series for the last two games demonstrates how modest and unself-serving the guy is when it comes to his series. I suspect that beyond Dedede, the only other Kirby newcomers that appear in the game will be in the form of Assist Trophies.

Starfox series:

1) Peppy & Slippy

Status: Most Likely Deconfirmed

Comments: It turns out that Slippy has the same likelihood of being playable as Snake’s cardboard box. That’s a better likelihood than I would have given him.

2) General Scales

Not Impossible: Not Impossible

Comments: No way in a million years will he be playable, but I’ll keep hope that he could have a slim chance of being an Assist Trophy.

Honestly, is there anyone else who doesn’t hate Star Fox Adventures?

Anyone?

*Crickets chirping*

3) Andross:

Status: Deconfirmed

Comments: Don’t get me wrong, I really like the Andross AT. But I was kinda hoping for the much cooler N64 Andross, personally. I hope we see the real Andross as a boss, but I wouldn’t get my hopes up.

Metroid Series:

1) Dark Samus:

Comments: Contrary to popular belief, Dark Samus is not just an evil copy of Samus in
the same way that Dark Link and Dark Mario are copies of their respective heroes.
Rather, Dark Samus is the form taken by Metroid Prime after the deadly boss is defeated
at the end of the game of the same name. She also served as the main villain in my favorite single player game ever (In your faces haters!) Metroid Prime 2: Echoes and the recently released masterpiece: Metroid Prime 3: Corrupton.

I would love to see DS playable, but given how unpopular the Prime games are in Japan (apparently, Nintendo isn’t even going to bother released Prime 3 in the country) I seriously doubt it will happen. However, I’m hopeful that she will appear as a Assist Trophy or perhaps a Boss battle.

2) Mother Brain

Status: Impossible

Comments: What? Mother Brain would be the perfect playable character.
Okay, maybe not. But Samus’ archrival would make the ultimate boss battle. Much better than a certain Space dragon, who is destined to be playable.

i8waffles612 · Apr 16, 2007

Wiseguy said:
Sadly, no. Check out Zamus' profile in Sakurai's own words:

http://www.smashbros.com/en/characters/chara3/index.html

Hopefully they won't mess up Samus like they did Zelda/Sheik.

Wow that sucks.. my brother wont like this one bit!!

FSLMJM · Apr 16, 2007

Hey Wiseguy sorry for all the trouble I've caused you. We're cool right?

Wiseguy · Apr 16, 2007

FSLMJM said:
Hey Wiseguy sorry for all the trouble I've caused you. We're cool right?

Yeah, don't sweat it.

Sorry if I came off as arogant before. I just feel strongly about some of my opinions and didn't mean to offend. Hopefully, in the future we can disagree without being disagreeable

Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

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