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ZSS General Discussion
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ThreeSided
Smash Ace
ThreeSided
Smash Ace
Heh. I think those of us that want a xat should just use the jiggly xat if it's that empty then.
ZSS mainers: the internet scavengers of brawl.
ZSS mainers: the internet scavengers of brawl.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
So apparently blogs on SWF are linked to a forum because a someone smart though that would be a good idea. So now, each post I make gets about 100 comments from random idiots asking me why it isn't posted on the ZSS boards. Since I'm getting sick of explaining it and really don't care where it goes, I'll be updating at http://zsstech.blogspot.com/ from this point out. Last time I'm posting about it, promise.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Not like I care that much but this is a good way to keep all our secret stuff secret.
ThreeSided
Smash Ace
I was never big on character boards' secrecy. I mean, going into a matchup, your opponent should know what you can do instead of you having to resort to the opponent not knowing the matchup as well as he thought. Just my opinion on it.
And I'm with Threesided, xat > IRC IMO. Chatzilla sucks.
And I'm with Threesided, xat > IRC IMO. Chatzilla sucks.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Ya but MU discussion is different than advertising. If people ask sure tell them, and if they happen to check our boards and find our threads cool but don't go posting elsewhere about our stuff, and when we're developing new stuff it's proly smart to keep it somewhere off these boards.
Wait... there are people that like all that bull****? Words aren't enough?
Seriously, if the lack of stupid nonsense is the reason you dislike IRC, then you need to reexamine your priorities.
For the record, if you're not using Pigdin for your instant messaging, you should go d/l it now. It's easy to use, and it does most of the IRC stuff for you. And really, all you need to know as a user in IRC is /me. And you don't even need to know that.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
i duno what people are talking about, I haven't done **** on the IRC, all I do is type... I didn't even have to register lol
Smeh
Smash Cadet
I can't say I'm too fond of Lylat =\ The slanted stage really bugs me.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Lylat actually makes the Falco MU decent in my opinion, it messes with his lasers and recovery.
Timbers
check me out
lolol
this post pretty much made it worth lurking ZSS boards once every like 4 months.
Cake probably likes #lucario more though.
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
Only sometimes. And Stauffers doesn't like me very much. Every time I make a joke he kicks me out.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
You can flipstool edgehoggers with invincibility frames so I'd assume the answer is "yes..." but can anyone confirm?
That's all I needed to know, thanks Sfp.
Buffered runs make our new developments possible.
What else can we do with buffered runs?
Dash Attack -> Upward angled F-Tilt -> Buffered Daz Attack -> Upward angled F-Tilt is something I recently discovered, and it works pretty well. Note that this isn't a lock when they're knocked down, it's a Daz Attack lock with more damage across the stage.
It's escapable at some points, but it's fun to mix up your game. Just buffer the dash attack and they won't be able to jump out of the F-Tilt. Confimed on only Pikachu for the time being, I'll find out percentage data soon...
What else can we do with buffered runs?
Dash Attack -> Upward angled F-Tilt -> Buffered Daz Attack -> Upward angled F-Tilt is something I recently discovered, and it works pretty well. Note that this isn't a lock when they're knocked down, it's a Daz Attack lock with more damage across the stage.
It's escapable at some points, but it's fun to mix up your game. Just buffer the dash attack and they won't be able to jump out of the F-Tilt. Confimed on only Pikachu for the time being, I'll find out percentage data soon...
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Charby actually said once that he thinks buffering will break her as well.
Well Actually with buffer system you can
double your accuracy after 2xdsmash, impossible to miss... you can even run and pivot buffered fair after 2xDsmash (If bair is stale )
DA, buffered Utilt is nice
Double Bair
Killing Fair
SH Dodge Uair ( New approach i discovered )
DA lock? it's actually in testing i guess
Chain Grab
New out of Shield ? Buffered Nair?
Basicely we have to buffer every attack to gain speed
double your accuracy after 2xdsmash, impossible to miss... you can even run and pivot buffered fair after 2xDsmash (If bair is stale )
DA, buffered Utilt is nice
Double Bair
Killing Fair
SH Dodge Uair ( New approach i discovered )
DA lock? it's actually in testing i guess
Chain Grab
New out of Shield ? Buffered Nair?
Basicely we have to buffer every attack to gain speed
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I "discovered" buffered nair OOS during my nair experiments. It's OKAY vs. tall characters like Snake and Marth but not that great (I kinda overhyped it). SH dodge uair is ridiculously good haha
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
how do you guys not know about double aerials yet?
ZSS's shorthop is so high you can do any of the following in a single short hop:
u-air u-air - good for pressure
u-air n-air - good for retreating
u-air b-air - good for cross overs
b-air b-air - good for WoPing
And I guess you could throw in air dodges instead of u-airs, cuz they're about the same length iirc.
ZSS's shorthop is so high you can do any of the following in a single short hop:
u-air u-air - good for pressure
u-air n-air - good for retreating
u-air b-air - good for cross overs
b-air b-air - good for WoPing
And I guess you could throw in air dodges instead of u-airs, cuz they're about the same length iirc.
noradseven
Smash Lord
Also if I think some could break the game you should watch out, heh, because I'm horrible pessimistic. Because to tell you the truth I was the most worried about IC when brawl came out, double characters terrify me, probably because they are historically top tier.
I can you can normal tap jump invulnerable people too, I abuse this for huge jump heights in doubles all the time.
Because that is like saying you can d-smash after a d-smash its p. obvious.
ThreeSided
Smash Ace
Going to a tourney tomorrow morning guys. Wish me luck/give me last minute tips. =\
noradseven
Smash Lord
Quote yipes the entire time you are playing.
Wenis of Lore
Smash Cadet
sort of a noob question, i know how to buffer specific ZSS techniques like multiple DA's and the chain grab, but in general how do you "buffer every attack" to gain speed? is there a formula i'm missing here? i'm particularly interested in the DA + buffered ^tilt, since i love ^tilts to start juggles on low damage enemies. sorry for the dumb questions.
Wenis of Lore
Smash Cadet
sorry one more question, what is a Daz attack?
......and good luck in your tourny 3sided
......and good luck in your tourny 3sided
noradseven
Smash Lord
d-smash loop. OH OH OH OH OH OH.
and d-smash to spike, not yipes quote but still awesome= ARE YOU OKAAYYY, BUSTA WUULF!!
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
GL and if you have any problem matchups let us know so we can discuss what was givin you a hard time
Advice:
Peppy says:
Do a Barrel Roll! Don't mess up that Arwing! Be careful it's a trap! Aim for the open spots.
Wolf says:
Don't get too cocky Fox.
Train guy on MacBeth says:
Here ya go!
Just take it easy and don't try anything fancy to look cool.
Don't fear people/characters, because they should fear you for playing a character that isn't played much. It's like "surprise bet you didn't think I could do that did you?" That and, even if they have fought a ZSS, no two of us play the same.
Idk
Good luck and make us proud!
Edit:I almost forgot!
James McCloud says:
Never give up, my son. Trust your instincts.
I have a feeling I know which tourney you're going to, sorry I can't make it
Tell everyone I said hi!
Are you positive about this? Like 100% sure it's been proven? Because I swore you could usmash OoS with tap jump off by buffering it as the shield drops.
(I know about the press jump to OoS usmash directly with no tap jump, but I find buffering usmash OoS easier - but...now I don't even know if that's the right term)
ThreeSided
Smash Ace
http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=6211I have a feeling I know which tourney you're going to, sorry I can't make it
Tell everyone I said hi!
Will do. If this was the one... in CT? Were you there at the last one?! Because I was... <.<
Yup, that's the one.
As for attending the last one...if it's inside New England, outside of Maine, and it's not Mass Madness, I'm generally not there
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I'm going to pose a question, and I ask that you guys not laugh, but rather think critically and seriously to answer. Also, I love being provocative and making people defend their status quo, so take this question for what it is:
Could ZSS be S tier?
I think she could be, and is at the very least at the top of A-tier. I spoke about this with a few people on the IRC last night. The issue as I see it is that while ZSS has a few problematic matches, she doesn't have any that are unwinnable. She also does very well against the high and top tier characters despite some of her weaknesses. ZSS also breaks one or two characters pretty bad (she destroys ROB, is very strong against ICs, and GAW doesn't do so well against her either). In short, ZSS is just south of being broken from a matchups standpoint.
From my perspective, you need to be successful against three characters to be tourney viable: Dedede, Meta Knight and Snake. Snake and Dedede are widely considered to be in our favor, if at least by slight margins. Meta Knight isn't that bad; it's winnable, but we are disadvantaged. Because of this, we are at least more tourney viable than most of A tier, most notably Marth.
Our "bad" matchups are typically overblown. Falco, Luigi, and Sheik are undoubtedly the worst, but how bad are they really? Is Falco really a hard counter? The answer is that he isn't; The Link and Falco boards agreed that he goes 30:70 with Link, a character he can chaingrab to the edge and spike before 50% with no repercussions or risks and without even performing the technique perfectly. Compared to Link, ZSS stands a much better chance. The matchup is at worst, 35:65 or perhaps even a little better, but I often get the impression that we lose perspective when talking about Falco sometimes. He is annoying, but he is not a "hard counter."
Luigi is another one that probably isn't as bad as we used to think; just three-four months ago, ZSS' best moves were thought to be side-b and bair. We've opened up a world of new options, and many are saying Luigi is even.
Sheik is probably our worst matchup, in my opinion, and Sheik is rare. The shield pressure he is capable of can be devastating for ZSS because her OOS options are sparse and situational at best. With that said, many ZSS and Sheik mains agree that the match is even. So perhaps I'm wrong.
Other close matches, like Diddy Kong and Pit, are roughly even, and you don't need a secondary for these. Sheik, Pit, and Luigi are pretty rare at tournaments.
It is my belief that ZSS is one of few characters that could potentially win a tournament alone and without a secondary. She is, in my opinion, a better character at the top end than ROB, Kirby, Ice Climbers, and even Game and Watch or King Dedede; her matchup spread is better both from a metagame standpoint, and from an overall standpoint than most of the above characters and maybe even a few I'm forgetting.
So I'm going to put it out there: I think ZSS is a potential candidate for top tier. I didn't used to think so, so this is not blind fanboyism; this is me looking at our matchups and character, understanding her strengths and weaknesses, and drawing a conclusion I feel any objective person should.
Could ZSS be S tier?
I think she could be, and is at the very least at the top of A-tier. I spoke about this with a few people on the IRC last night. The issue as I see it is that while ZSS has a few problematic matches, she doesn't have any that are unwinnable. She also does very well against the high and top tier characters despite some of her weaknesses. ZSS also breaks one or two characters pretty bad (she destroys ROB, is very strong against ICs, and GAW doesn't do so well against her either). In short, ZSS is just south of being broken from a matchups standpoint.
From my perspective, you need to be successful against three characters to be tourney viable: Dedede, Meta Knight and Snake. Snake and Dedede are widely considered to be in our favor, if at least by slight margins. Meta Knight isn't that bad; it's winnable, but we are disadvantaged. Because of this, we are at least more tourney viable than most of A tier, most notably Marth.
Our "bad" matchups are typically overblown. Falco, Luigi, and Sheik are undoubtedly the worst, but how bad are they really? Is Falco really a hard counter? The answer is that he isn't; The Link and Falco boards agreed that he goes 30:70 with Link, a character he can chaingrab to the edge and spike before 50% with no repercussions or risks and without even performing the technique perfectly. Compared to Link, ZSS stands a much better chance. The matchup is at worst, 35:65 or perhaps even a little better, but I often get the impression that we lose perspective when talking about Falco sometimes. He is annoying, but he is not a "hard counter."
Luigi is another one that probably isn't as bad as we used to think; just three-four months ago, ZSS' best moves were thought to be side-b and bair. We've opened up a world of new options, and many are saying Luigi is even.
Sheik is probably our worst matchup, in my opinion, and Sheik is rare. The shield pressure he is capable of can be devastating for ZSS because her OOS options are sparse and situational at best. With that said, many ZSS and Sheik mains agree that the match is even. So perhaps I'm wrong.
Other close matches, like Diddy Kong and Pit, are roughly even, and you don't need a secondary for these. Sheik, Pit, and Luigi are pretty rare at tournaments.
It is my belief that ZSS is one of few characters that could potentially win a tournament alone and without a secondary. She is, in my opinion, a better character at the top end than ROB, Kirby, Ice Climbers, and even Game and Watch or King Dedede; her matchup spread is better both from a metagame standpoint, and from an overall standpoint than most of the above characters and maybe even a few I'm forgetting.
So I'm going to put it out there: I think ZSS is a potential candidate for top tier. I didn't used to think so, so this is not blind fanboyism; this is me looking at our matchups and character, understanding her strengths and weaknesses, and drawing a conclusion I feel any objective person should.