Zoroark vs. Lucario... THE FINAL DEBATE

[Frostwraith]

Hey, hey, chill out dude.
He didn't mention on disc dlc. He's saying since its unlikely for all 3 of the humanoid pokemon trio to be on the initial disc, if one of em doesn't make the cut they can be DLC once the development team has enough time to make the character they left out.

Its highly unlikely all will get in from the start~

When he says "on disc" he means if you buty the game, you get them on disc, without DLC. Kay?

I am all for roster expansions via DLC, just don't follow the C(r)apcom way, which is to lock the content on-disc and demanding more money to unlock.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Nah he ain't saying that. He's just saying DLC for things they didn't have enough time to put on disc would be nice.
What?

You don't wanna play Ultimate Super Smash Bro's 4 Arcade Edition Remix? =w=

 

[---]

Going to bet against DLC Characters for obvious reason. Can still see DLC stickers, Trophies, and extra SSE Levels happening.


Anyway looking at this thread, I might as well start off by asking, for what reasons Zoroark should be added? What does it bring to the mix and what makes it stand out?

 

[Aurane]

How about Victini?

He may be small. He may be cute. He may be known as the 'Mew' of Generation 5, but he is very much so a great canidate for the new Pokemon slot. Plus, he's not mirroring Mewtwo, Pikachu, or Jigglypuff, so he's got that fresh feeling.

Oh, and Lucario because I dispise Zoroark on many levels. He's got more attention STILL than Zoroark. God, he's in a mini-anime video for B2W2. Was Zoroark? Nope. In fact, I haven't heard of anything special about Zoroark in awhile. Not meaning to be on offensive bashing of characters here. I just don't like Zoroark.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Lucario's in the mini anime over zoroark because he's meant to represent the player. In the upcoming pokemon black and white 2 a Riolu can be obtained incredibly early. This is because lucario is the only one of the humanoid gen mascots thats truly on the side of justice like the player is suppose to be. Zoroarks more of a neutral. He's easier to obtain in the new game, but definitely not handed to you like Riolu is.

Anywho, I think Zoroark should get in because she completes the Fighting/Dark/Psychic triangle. Despite being bipeds Lucario, Zoroark and Mewtwo are all different in a way that really compliments each other and sets them apart.

-----------

Mewtwo: A highly aggressive omnipotent pokemon that cares for nothing but battling. Values fighting with his mind more then anything else. He'll more then likely be a long range fighter in the next smash if he gets in. Despite genuinely repenting at the end of most his appearances, he's often still portrayed as the bad guy, and despises man kind.

-----------------

Lucario: The aura using jackal with a strong sense of justice. He's the middle man of the 3 and values both his body and mind equally in battle. In brawl, he's considered one of the most balanced characters, being able to fight from almost any range. Is very "main character-ish" if that makes sense.

-----------------

Zoroark: The feral fox that fends for herself. Is portrayed as a fragile speedster in most cases, and will more then likely rely on rushdown more then anything. Doesn't really side for bad or good. Shes more of a chaotic neutral. If something is seen as threatening to her, she'll make sure to take care of it at whatever the cost. Although devious and somewhat of prankster, she doesn't mean anyone harm.

--------------------

They'd all have different playstyles, different alliances and personalities. They also all represent a large part of the pokemon series. Mewtwo reps the beginning of pokemon as one of the most well known, Lucario as the fan favorite, and Zoroark as the current generation.

I'll admit. Zoroarks my least favorite of the 3, but it just wouldn't feel right unless they're all present.

 

[Sage of Ice]

who's to say we can't have mewtwo, lucario, and zoroark? if brawl's unfinished data is anything to go by, we were set to have plusle/minun and mewtwo in addition to the characters we got. that would've been six pokemon reps (eight if you count trainer's team individually). so by adding Mewtwo and GenesectZoroark, that works out the same. it's not too much of a stretch, is it?

if I absolutely HAD to pick between Zoroark and Lucario, i'd go with Lucario:

1) i like Zoroark, but I like Lucario better
2) cutting Lucario would lead to another Mewtwo debacle
3) what better pokemon for a fighting game than a fighting-type?

 

[SmashShadow]

Cut pokemon trainer so we can add Victini, Mewtwo and Zoroark.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Mewtwo

I don't see how the troll face was necessary. Unless it was Project M Lucario or something like that (totally not happening for a number of reasons) I'd take Mewtwo a hundred times over Lucario or Zoroark.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

I don't see how the troll face was necessary. Unless it was Project M Lucario or something like that (totally not happening for a number of reasons) I'd take Mewtwo a hundred times over Lucario or Zoroark.

This was necessary, because this is a Lucario and Zoroark discussion, not a Mewtwo discussion.

 

[Ginamudkipz]

Just stick with mewtwo, or make em different skin colors. Such as wario has his own skins( various brawl hacks can do it so why not)

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Mewtwo doesn't co-exist with inferior beings

 

[Deleted member]

Mewtwo doesn't co-exist with inferior beings

Which is clearly why he associates himself with Jigglypuff and Pichu.

 

[Ferio_Kun]

In my opinion... Pokemon should warrant all of the above and THEN some. Considering it's the best selling Nintendo game of all time. (save Mario, but Mario has like 15 years up on Pokemon, so in the time the games been out, Pokemon has outsold Mario, if you catch my meaning)

Personally I would love to see 1 per gen at least. We already have 5 first gen... So I'm ok with Mewtwo sitting this one out. (or replacing Jigglypuff, but that's just me)

Gen 2 is obvious: Scizor. You can try and argue but everyone knows he's the most popular 2nd gen.

Gen 3: Also obvious, Blaziken. While I don't like him personally nobody can argue his popularity.

Gen 4: Lucario. He's in now so keep him in.

Gen 5: Zoroark. With increasing popularity and a unique ability (Illusion, SO many possibilities) everyone here knows that he would make a really fun addition.

So there you have it!

 

[Sage of Ice]

Just stick with mewtwo, or make em different skin colors. Such as wario has his own skins( various brawl hacks can do it so why not)

...no?

lucario and zoroark being the same person isn't the same as wario and wario being the same person. they have completely different gmmicks, look entirely unrelated, and have basically no overlap with what moves they can do. your line of thinking is like saying zant ought to be a ganondorf reskin.

 

[PMC66]

I want Zorark Lucario and Metwo in so much it's be awesome Mario's got nearly half the roster full of his karting buddies so why not add the main series pokemon

 

[Deleted member]

In regards to personal preference, Lucario by a 100 miles.

That said, while I don't expect a Gen 5 Pokemon, if they were to get one and it turned out o be Zoroark, that doesn't mean Lucario is likely to go. They can definitely co-exist in a Smash game and they are different enough so that it can happen. Fighting style-wise, they are completely different. Not to mention Sakurai has stated that he loves all the characters he worked on, so I doubt he wants Lucario to go.

I think most people would be happy with this scenario:
Pikachu
Pokemon Trainer (Red)
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Lucario
Zoroark/Genesect/6th Gen Pokemon mascot.

 

[SmashShadow]

In regards to personal preference, Lucario by a 100 miles.

That said, while I don't expect a Gen 5 Pokemon, if they were to get one and it turned out o be Zoroark, that doesn't mean Lucario is likely to go. They can definitely co-exist in a Smash game and they are different enough so that it can happen. Fighting style-wise, they are completely different. Not to mention Sakurai has stated that he loves all the characters he worked on, so I doubt he wants Lucario to go.

I think most people would be happy with this scenario:
Pikachu
Pokemon Trainer (Red)
Jigglypuff
Mewtwo
Lucario
Zoroark/Genesect/6th Gen Pokemon mascot.

Pikachu
Mewtwo
Lucario
Zoroark
Victini

This would make me happy. Pokemon Trainer just takes up too many spots. Jigglypuff...meh

 

[Enlong]

whoever gets in, I would really like it if one of their costumes was their Shiny colors.

 

[Pyra]

Chandelure for Sm4sh

But seriously, I prefer Lucario. I just wish he had a black/red color swap, which is where Zoroark trumps.

 

[cloud9]

Neither. Smash 4 will be probably coming out in 2014-2015, by which point the 6th generation will have started. Zoroark will be overlooked in favour of a 6th gen rep.

 

[Deleted member]

Pikachu
Mewtwo
Lucario
Zoroark
Victini

This would make me happy. Pokemon Trainer just takes up too many spots. Jigglypuff...meh

That Pokemon roster is awful.

Jigglypuff and Pokemon Trainer both deserve to be in Smash. They are very popular characters and removing them would result in a massive backlash that even Mewtwo didn't get. I would not buy this game if Pokemon Trainer were cut from the line-up entirely (because doing so is pure stupidity). Also, two reps for Gen 5 is unnecessary; one is good enough.

Drop Zoroark or Victini, add Jigglypuff, and especially add back Pokemon Trainer and you have a great Pokemon roster.

Neither. Smash 4 will be probably coming out in 2014-2015, by which point the 6th generation will have started. Zoroark will be overlooked in favour of a 6th gen rep.

I don't see why Lucario can't co-exist with a Gen 6 (or whoever becomes the possible Gen 5 rep if we're not at Gen 6 by the time Smash is out or close to it)?

 

[VictoryIsMudkipz]

Mewtwo > Lucario > Zoroark
really. srs.
it would really bother me if zoroark was in the next game playable, granted yeah it was the first reveal in Gen 5, but I don't want to feel like everytime a new gen comes out the first thing you see will get in brawl, that was the case with lucario which ultimately removed mewtwo & I would hate to see Lucario Replaced with this thing, because I do enjoy Lucario (not as much as mewtwo though) I don't care for Zoroark, he's pretty cool in compettive battling, but that's about it I find no use in it whatsoever
/thread

 

[Deleted member]

Lucario was never meant as a replacement for Mewtwo. Both were planned to be in the same game, but due to time constraints, Mewtwo was removed. There would be no data for Mewtwo had he been replaced.

But yeah, I would loathe seeing Lucario being replaced by Zoroark (or another 5th/6th gen Pokemon) just because Lucario is from an older generation. People who advocate replacements for Lucario, Ike, Sheik, Ganondorf, Wolf, Falco, Jigglypuff, and other vets subjected to this (and I won't give out names) need to step back and realize that it is impossible to properly replace a character. Replacing a character does nothing but leave fans bitter, frustrated, and angry.

 

[FlareHabanero]

People keep saying that Mewtwo was removed due to time constraints, but I believe that was never stated by Sakurai or any of the staff that worked for Brawl.

Keep in mind that the final roster was completed in 2006 (except Sonic in 2007), so it's possible Mewtwo was cut early in the project along with the other members of the Forbidden Seven. Besides if Mewtwo was cut late in development due to time constraints, we would of found a lot more data of Mewtwo, like a coded moveset or a model.

As for why Mewtwo was cut short, I don't know. One theory may be that Game Freak meddled during the early stages of development.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

That Pokemon roster is awful.

Jigglypuff and Pokemon Trainer both deserve to be in Smash. They are very popular characters and removing them would result in a massive backlash that even Mewtwo didn't get. I would not buy this game if Pokemon Trainer were cut from the line-up entirely (because doing so is pure stupidity). Also, two reps for Gen 5 is unnecessary; one is good enough.

Drop Zoroark or Victini, add Jigglypuff, and especially add back Pokemon Trainer and you have a great Pokemon roster.

If we had to cut an existing Pokemon rep to get Mewtwo back or add Zoroark, I wouldn't mind seeing PT done way with. I'd rather there be minimal cuts, but if one character must be cut, I'd go with PT.

 

[---]

People keep saying that Mewtwo was removed due to time constraints, but I believe that was never stated by Sakurai or any of the staff that worked for Brawl.

Keep in mind that the final roster was completed in 2006 (except Sonic in 2007), so it's possible Mewtwo was cut early in the project along with the other members of the Forbidden Seven. Besides if Mewtwo was cut late in development due to time constraints, we would of found a lot more data of Mewtwo, like a coded moveset or a model.

There was more data of Mewtwo, if I remember correctly there was files for a classic mode ending pic, announcer data, as well as some new voice files that he didn't have in Melee.

Who knows why he didn't have what you're asking for (a model?) for all we know they removed a lot of his data from the final project. But that fact that he has a bunch of new things in his files shows that he was neither replaced and the only real reason that could come of it for his cutting would be time (happened in 64 too).

Sakurai said that Dixie Kong with Diddy was playable at some point. Mewtwo (and Roy) had more data than her, so what does that say? Tough to say if Sonic had any hand in it, but him as a scape goat makes a lot more sense than Lucario (that's not to say that Lucario didn't have first priority).


Either way the fact that Mewtwo had any data, especially new data, at all shows that he was seriously planned and was never intended to be replaced.

 

[Mypantisgone]

There was more data of Mewtwo, if I remember correctly there was files for a classic mode ending pic, announcer data, as well as some new voice files that he didn't have in Melee.

I haven't heard of that,can you tell me where to find some videos or somethings if you know where?

 

[dlbpc]

Keep Lucario, bring back Mewtwo. Zoroark has an ugly design and Lucario is something of a mascot in Japan.

 

[Dexident]

I say drop Jigglypuff so that there is more room for better pokemon.

Jigglypuff is over, she needs to go. She has been a waste of roster space since SB 64

 

[The Real Gamer]

Why exactly is Jiggs a waste of a roster space?

 

[Aurane]

Jigglypuff and Pokemon Trainer both deserve to be in Smash.

This was more revolting to read than the Twilight series, but it is sadly true.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Why exactly is Jiggs a waste of a roster space?

When she got in she was a running gag in the anime series, and had a huge fanbase. Now its like....she has no part in the anime, and nearly no fanbase. Like, seriously, only reason she's kept in is for tradition, because shes part of the original roster.

If she wasn't in the last 3 smash games, and someone suggested her as a character now, it'd be almost as bad as suggesting Dunsparce should get in. Shes just irrelevant now man. No hate. Just saiyan. Honestly, I don't mind her getting in, but i'd be alot happier if she made way for a more popular or demanded character.

 

[SubparSmashBrother]

Lucario

also 6th gen will be out by the time smash 4 is released

 

[Sunnysunny]

Lucario's actually popular though. More so then even Zoroark who IS new. Using the "Its last gen" argument doesn't work in this case. Maybe i'll agree when 6th gen rolls around, and he DOES fall from fame, but that hasn't happened yet. Don't use what you assume will happen as an argument. Look at mewtwo. 1st gen, and he's still incredibly popular.

 

[---]

JIGGS BEAT MEWTWO FOR GETTING INTO A SMASH GAME TWICE. allcaps



And to also quote the words of a certain Champion Speculator:

Pokemon in general: This is a big series with a lot of good-but-not-mandatory choices all over. Frankly, Sakurai could pick a bunch of popular Pokemon out of a hat and still do good here, so long as he included Pikachu and PT. It's certainly been the most flexible series thus far.

So yeah, expect whatever the hell you feel like, you might be right anyway. This is really more of a hunch thread.


*** Regarding cuts ***

First, I endorse the idea that Mewtwo was cut out of necessity and Pichu because meh. Also that Jiggs would've been one of the next out of the door if there were more cuts, though not THE next. Pretty sure most of us have gone over the reasons why, so inquire within if you're still curious.

At this point, any future cuts would be due to time, and Pokemon characters tend to be good choices for cuts on the basis of volume.

Whatever, I'm an Ivysaur fan.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Jiggs got in due too being one of the original 8. A position she claimed when she was still popular. I stand by my claim that Mewtwo/Lucario/Zoroark are more wanted at this point in time. It just bugs me if one of those guys won't get in, yet jiggs will still secure a spot for her self.

I think this was alot of peoples arguments against Zoroark as well. "Expected, but not wanted."

Consider this. If jiggs wasn't present in the last 3 smash bros games, would you guys even consider her?

 

[Deleted member]

Not really.
If he hadn't already, I'd probably be rooting for Meowth instead.

 

[---]

@Sunny: Not really, would prefer her to Meowth though. Also I wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai keeps her around for her playstyle.

Definitely agree with "Expected, but not wanted." It's a good thing that Sakurai knows fanbases a lot more than people give him credit for. Not to mention how he picks characters.


And because I can't resist re-posting the rest:

*** Mewtwo ***

The only character to be planned for all three games and miss two of them due to time, as far as we know anyway. Also overwhelmingly popular, kind of a dying breed by this point.


*** Lucario ***

He's been well-received, I think Sakurai would prefer to have him stay.


*** Jiggs ***

Sure, why not. Now whar's me toothpick?


*** Pokemon Trainer ***

Lots of people suggest changing either the Trainer, the Pokemon, or both. I can't recall a time when someone suggested this without the claim that we need more stuff from anything other than the first generation. I also can't recall a more shallow argument for such a significant change, but maybe I've been ignoring ****** City* for too long. Who knows.


*** 5th Gen Pokemon ***

The only reason I don't have one listed is because I'm not seeing any strong standouts compared to any Brawl characters or Mewtwo. Try to imagine a scenario where Sakurai feels it'd be better to simply bring back those guys and focus on other series. That's what I'm leaning toward, though it's also probably the most likely prediction I'm making about Smash that I'd be wrong about. Meh.

As for which ones... well sorry, I don't care. I'm guessing Sakurai will ask TPC for an idea if he's interested. Actually, something that isn't large and ferocious or small and cute would be nice. More Ivysaurs, yeah.


**** Everything Else ****

Another Trainer: I'd like to think people here realize why a second individual trainer (more or less the same as Red) would be a bad idea. Now a female PT alt costume, THAT'S a keeper.

Previous Gen Pokemon: No indication of interest from Sakurai or TPC, and who would they pick anyway? Your personal favorite, right?

6+ Gen Pokemon: Betting all of my hair in a beautiful Toise wig on the roster being decided well before a new generation shows up.

Pichu: I like him as an alt costume (and yes, he DOES fit). No sign of interest in bringing him back for Brawl, so I'm more than willing to bet against him showing up.

Plusle & Minun: a-hyuck

EDIT: * - Means the old thread. The new forum is ****** Metropolis.

 

[Dexident]

Exactly. Jigglypuff is maybe the lamest character in brawl.

I have (and have always had) the least desire to play as jigglypuff compared to any other character. Why don't we just cut her and add clefairy instead? A way cooler normal - type pink puffball IMO.

It's time to cut one of the original 8, and it should be Jigglypuff. The rest should absolutely retain their holiness as members of the 8, because the rest are in fact, awesome, and will always be.

Jigglypuff... not so much. Just a stepping stone to wigglytuff, which is not as cool as clefable anyway.

Sorry to get off topic.

Anyway, woo Zoroark, I don't even know what that pokemon is.

 

[Deleted member]

I would like to point out, that Genesect may pose a potential threat to Zoroark at this point, especially since it's no longer in the "revealed too late to even consider" category.