ZeRo's current position on Mii rulings

[Yikarur]

hi guys. I'm a Mii Brawler main from germany and I'm also in charge of the rules of the german community.
I really love the Small Mii Brawler. I think it would be objectively correct to have him allowed in a custom off environment.
But we still use the Guest Mii Size + any set.
Why?
Because a Ruleset must be koherent. A Ruleset must work on every set-up and every set-up must have the same conditions.
As much as I love the Small Mii Brawler (I was able to play him in France and it was by far my most enjoyable tournament experience so far, getting third)
The problem with Mii's is that you have to create them in a different "game" then Smash Bros.
If they just were a size and width toggle in-game when you choose a Mii, then everything would be perfect. (Please Sakurai)

But for now we must accept: Mii's other than the Guest Mii's are not included in the game itself.
For that reason I would never try to push the rules beyond the Guest Mii's.

The first 2 tournaments in germany had 3DS Transfer allowed. But this is absolutely not feasible.
- You need a 200$ advice to compete with one of the best characters in the game
- With this Custom: on tournaments would've never been a problem logistical-wise but we don't do it because of point 1.

So for this reason we dropped the rule and play with Guest Mii's only.

Right now it should priority #1 to get (Guest) Mii's using their specials on tournament.
I know germany, spain, france and norway are using at least the Guest Mii Rule + Moves.
We should spread it.

I've once posted this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...haracter-should-be-allowed-custom-off.398225/
and this reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/31xc3m/how_mii_fighters_should_be_allowed_under_custom/
and we need to spread the world and convince the TO's that are still doing it wrong.

I'm happy to hear that @Mew2King would play him if he was properly treated. I hope people will rise up their voice because the current (US) standard is ridiculous

 

[wizrad]

Guest Miis aren't included in the game. They're included on the system. The TO should require Mii players to come early and set up their Miis on a 3DS if the players don't have one of his/her own.

 

[AEMehr]

imo it really should be up to the mii fighter player to bring their own 3ds system and play as their character. It's not like it's DLC or anything that TO needs to have out there on each system.


I mean we let people alter controls, something not set by TOs. It is quite literally the same thing but with a character. It is unfair to Mii Fighter users to limit the character to the extent where some may argue their character is barely playable. Besides all of the Guest Miis are gross and aren't 50/50 which is what the community continues to demand for so eh. IMO at the very least just have 50/50 Miis based on the ones in the CSS or something. Isn't too long to download a QR code and then players can just make a Mii Fighter with whatever set based on those.

 

[san.]

The first 2 tournaments in germany had 3DS Transfer allowed. But this is absolutely not feasible.
- You need a 200$ advice to compete with one of the best characters in the game
- With this Custom: on tournaments would've never been a problem logistical-wise but we don't do it because of point 1.

So for this reason we dropped the rule and play with Guest Mii's only.

You had problems when you allowed people to use 3DS transfer?

 

[Ian Viola]

Besides all of the Guest Miis are gross and aren't 50/50

?

 

[AEMehr]

?

Gross as in none of the designs really resonate with me and each of them are taller and skinnier than the 50/50 standard people think they should have.

 

[Ian Viola]

Gross as in none of the designs really resonate with me and each of them are taller and skinnier than the 50/50 standard people think they should have.

Do you know the specific size?

 

[AEMehr]

Do you know the specific size?

Impossible to find it out unless you attempt to make a mii for each size (that is of course, containing the exact same head structure and hair style of a Guest Mii) and compare the two of them until they're a perfect match.

Even then, weight comparison will be slightly harder to do but I assume taking a screenshot and comparing pixels for that works. Just making a Guest Mii Fighter and a 50/50 Size one and place them next to each other. You can tell they're not the same.

EDIT: Also I double checked and they may actually be fatter.

 

[AEMehr]

I apologize for the double post, but it appears I was wrong.

Each Guest Mii is in fact 50/50. The way the camera works and varying hairstyles threw me off when I first checked, but I was able to find a new way to compare them through training mode.


So they just look meh in comparison then IMO. I'd like to use Mii Fighters the way they were intended, to let anyone join the battle.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Honestly, at this point it feels like we're wasting our time debating the minority. Why don't we start getting in touch with TOs and ladder hosts to see if we can push for more freedom in Miis, now that we have proof that they're not harmful to the meta and we can keep the logistical concerns under control?

 

[Yikarur]

You had problems when you allowed people to use 3DS transfer?

Yes, like people complaining about the need of a 3DS and unfair advantages.

 

[AEMehr]

The unfair advantages thing never made a lot of sense to me.

I wish my character could set up for kills across the stage.
I wish my character could get kills from a string of up airs from like 20%.
I wish my character had a "crutch" to protect help me in dire situations.

I wish my character had two sets of grounded normals to work with.

These characters are designed like this. It doesn't matter if you find a set completely rigged because of the character chosen. If you legitimately think any of the Mii Fighters are broken if Small, you have another thing coming. If we allow Sheik, Zero Suit, Rosalina, Diddy Kong, and whatever stupid good character that may pop up eventually to be playable even though they generally always have the better match-up, how is it unfair to use a small Mii Fighter? If you want there to be a coherent match-up, fine, standardize the small Mii Fighters then. Y'know, like EVO did?

QR Codes are not hard to create.

These were the sizes used for EVO, with 50/50 being an alternate use for Brawler.

I also know that some people have been experimenting with 0/0 on Swordfighter and Gunner too and saying positive things about them, so BAM

It took 5 minutes to make these, and it'll take another one or two to just get them on a system.

I get the desire for a coherent match-up, but why hinder Mii Fighter players in the process?

 

[Yikarur]

One question by the way.
Why "25/0" ? I have no idea what to think of when I see this number.

 

[AEMehr]

25 height, 0 weight.

Those were agreed to be the probable best height and weight for those two around the time probably so they could keep some range. Brawler doesn't really need it since you're really supposed to be in their face with him.

 

[Yikarur]

I don't recall seeing those numbers in any instance of Mii Creation.

 

[AEMehr]

Oh I see what you mean now.

There are 100 different size increments for height and weight. To get 25 just move the slider to 0 and tap the right arrow 25 times. The Wii U Mii Maker is a lot more reliable for making Miis so I suggest using that one.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Nah, it's kinda more confusing.

There are differing numbers of notches between the 3DS and WiiU versions.

The WiiU has 127 notches. The 3DS I think has either half or 3/4 that.

Since there's an inconsistency between versions, the 0/25/50 numbers are used to state a rough fraction of the available bar. Whether you're off by a notch or so isn't important, and the effects are so miniscule that unless someone felt like doing 127^2 sets of frame data collecting per Mii, nobody could tell you the difference.

Anywho, of the 127 notches, 31 from the left is appropriate for "25/0".

 

[AEMehr]

Nah, it's kinda more confusing.

There are differing numbers of notches between the 3DS and WiiU versions.

The WiiU has 127 notches. The 3DS I think has either half or 3/4 that.

Since there's an inconsistency between versions, the 0/25/50 numbers are used to state a rough fraction of the available bar. Whether you're off by a notch or so isn't important, and the effects are so miniscule that unless someone felt like doing 127^2 sets of frame data collecting per Mii, nobody could tell you the difference.

Anywho, of the 127 notches, 31 from the left is appropriate for "25/0".

I that case, WHA-BOOM

also gonna fix the qr codes above too

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This should be a very clear sign that ZeRo is not to be taken seriously when it comes to rulesets. Seriously, I thought we learned this lesson with M2K in Brawl. -.-

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Of course not. ZeRo has a vested interest in reducing the number of variables he has to track in order to keep his meal-ticket secure. When the #1 player expresses an opinion on some aspect of competitive rule design, our VERY FIRST question should be: "How does the #1 player benefit from this?"

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I apologize for the double post, but it appears I was wrong.

Each Guest Mii is in fact 50/50. The way the camera works and varying hairstyles threw me off when I first checked, but I was able to find a new way to compare them through training mode.


So they just look meh in comparison then IMO. I'd like to use Mii Fighters the way they were intended, to let anyone join the battle.

I'm with you on design and Yikarur on coherence. The guest miis just feel so blah and I'd rather play as Goku or Elsa, but I still think they should be default size just so every console has a standard. Flavor can be transferred in via 3ds but isn't a game changer so it's not a $200 upgrade.

 

[Marrow]

QR Codes are not hard to create.

These were the sizes used for EVO, with 50/50 being an alternate use for Brawler.

I also know that some people have been experimenting with 0/0 on Swordfighter and Gunner too and saying positive things about them, so BAM

It took 5 minutes to make these, and it'll take another one or two to just get them on a system.

I get the desire for a coherent match-up, but why hinder Mii Fighter players in the process?

Can I get those in Nikki?

Flavor can be transferred in via 3ds but isn't a game changer so it's not a $200 upgrade.

That's true, but if the previously quoted QR codes are added with the gamepad, then neither form nor flavor are sacrificed.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

That's true, but if the previously quoted QR codes are added with the gamepad, then neither form nor flavor are sacrificed.

scanning a QR code with my Gamepad is an advanced technique that I have never been able to pull off. I scan with my 3DS and transfer it to my wii u

 

[Marrow]

scanning a QR code with my Gamepad is an advanced technique that I have never been able to pull off. I scan with my 3DS and transfer it to my wii u

Finally a tech I can explain lmao

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Finally a tech I can explain lmao

HOW DO YOU DO IT

edit: I mean I know how to do it, but it's easier on paper than in practice for me. Lining up the code with the gamepad screen doesn't ever end well for me

 

[Yikarur]

Not all consoles have Gamepads so at the actual tournament you won't be able to use your own QRs on every set-up.

 

[Marrow]

Not all consoles have Gamepads so at the actual tournament you won't be able to use your own QRs on every set-up.

I'm just saying the owners of the Wii Us can add in the varied size QRs posted earlier quickly, though perhaps not at the tourney

 

[AEMehr]

HOW DO YOU DO IT

edit: I mean I know how to do it, but it's easier on paper than in practice for me. Lining up the code with the gamepad screen doesn't ever end well for me

Use the TV to see what you're doing.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Alternatively, print the QR code. The Gamepad can read that MUCH more easily.

 

[Raijinken]

Not all consoles have Gamepads so at the actual tournament you won't be able to use your own QRs on every set-up.

How on earth does not every console have a vital component to running the console?

Unless you specifically refer to the tendency for players/TOs/whatever to set the Gamepad aside and turn of its screen during matches.

 

[Yikarur]

How on earth does not every console have a vital component to running the console?

Unless you specifically refer to the tendency for players/TOs/whatever to set the Gamepad aside and turn of its screen during matches.

We tell our players to keep their Gamepad at home. All you need to start the game is a WiiU Pro Controller or a Wiimote.

 

[Raijinken]

We tell our players to keep their Gamepad at home. All you need to start the game is a WiiU Pro Controller or a Wiimote.

Interesting. Still, just in case there is a setup issue that should somehow necessitate accessing the Settings screen (for instance, screen aspect ratio or resolution or anything like that), I think it's worth keeping on hand. Even moreso if you use it for QR scanning.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I will say that most of Ontario is against Customs being on (including myself), however most of Ontario also boards this boat of "ban all the mii moves, 1111 only."

As a response to this, I ran a tournament a few weekends ago, The Great Escape in London Ontario. In this tournament I switched up the rules a little, I swapped Dreamland and Lylat from starter/cp respectively (DL was cp, Lylat was starter), and I also allowed Mii fighter movesets with default guest miis (logistics are honestly a good argument). This was met with some positive responses from people and I received messages on FB, one in particular thanked me for allowing the use of Miis but also said he hadn't practiced his Gunner character in months because "it isn't worth it when I never pick him anyways."

What is happening guys? Why are we all of a sudden messing with Miis movesets and not letting these players enjoy their character? I didn't think it was getting bad enough to see someone tell me they were giving up practicing their character.

I've been a Fox main since 3DS; I have been subject to Greninja U-smash ko's in 3DS, I have lost to tons Diddy Hoo-Hah's (two Diddy's took me out at Apex), I have gotten and still get tossed around by F-air chains from Shiek, have died from countless Luigi cyclone spikes, and yet I've been expected to put up with the same people complaining about Fox's (now removed) jab-lock, and even still people calling him an "easy-mode" character in lieu of the amount of shenanigans Smash Wii U has. But all of a sudden Helicopter Kick exists (yes, I admit it's dumb), and oh ho! ban all the Miis?

I'm going to keep pushing and keep running Mii's movesets in the tourneys here, and I'm not going to change that as long as London has a competitive scene, or until the Miis prove to be problematic.

 

[T0MMY]

I've been a Fox main since 3DS; I have been subject to Greninja U-smash ko's in 3DS, I have lost to tons Diddy Hoo-Hah's (two Diddy's took me out at Apex), I have gotten and still get tossed around by F-air chains from Shiek, have died from countless Luigi cyclone spikes, and yet I've been expected to put up with the same people complaining about Fox's (now removed) jab-lock, and even still people calling him an "easy-mode" character in lieu of the amount of shenanigans Smash Wii U has. But all of a sudden Helicopter Kick exists (yes, I admit it's dumb), and oh ho! ban all the Miis?

This was one of the funniest analyses I've ever seen written about the reasoning of Smashers.
From what I gather, there are a few categories of arguments who fall into this silliness (the following is mostly for humor purposes):

One group are the remnant of the pro-customs zealots who are still attempting to hold the Mii hostage (if we can't have customs, you can't have Mii) in an attempt to use the Mii as a way to get support for turning Custom Fighters ON (ridiculous, and they know it's a failure tactic but it still gets them off on some kind of superiority kick or maybe their bleeding hearts just push them into this kind of corner because they really have nothing better to do with their push to use custom fighters).

Then there are the try-hard scrubs who hate losing and will do anything to get an advantage. You know these people who do the grimiest things like quit out of a match when they lose their first stock in a matter of seconds and then claim their controller wasn't working. To say they lack confidence in themselves is an understatement, they are downright drowning in fear of showing the world just how bad they are in a game they constantly brag they are so good at - when given the chance to ban/limit/restrict ANY character they will mindlessly jump at the chance. You can tell you are dealing with one of these types when they simply just parrot other peoples' reasons to ban a character no matter how much it doesn't make sense.

Spoiler: Click here for a tragic dialogue of common try-hards.

I think Mii fighters should be banned because Helicopter Kick is too good... why not ban just that move instead of banning three different characters? Well, because... because Mii Brawler is ridiculous. What about the other Mii fighters not just the Brawler? Oh, uh, because logistics. What does that have to do with anything? Oh, well, a majority of people want this and I think a tyranny of majority should tell you how to play the game instead of truth, logic, and reasoning... where did I get this data of majority? Because it's not fair to allow Mii to use customs when nobody else can. Am I even listening to you? Well, Mii isn't even a real character anyway, so they should be banned due to tragedy of the commons fallacy...

Then there is the complete dolt who doesn't know what they are talking about. You may have run into this kind who has been playing in the tournament scene for a matter of months and yet thinks they know everything about how the game should be played. This is probably the same person you see around here on Smashboards who has a signup date of about a month and this fact weighs so heavily upon them that they have to publicly announce they've been lurking for a "long time" to make up for their lack of experience - little do they know that wisdom is not judged by the passage of time, people can remain dumb for ages. This person just thinks that everything they say is true and that people will actually listen to them on the merit of them being who they are. They will make vague and general statements much like a try-hard scrub but without the obvious motive to try to win, because to them the true victory is just being superior to everyone else by opening their mouth.

I'm sure there's a few other categories of ulterior motives, but I think these pretty much sum up the major areas.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

One group are the remnant of the pro-customs zealots who are still attempting to hold the Mii hostage (if we can't have customs, you can't have Mii) in an attempt to use the Mii as a way to get support for turning Custom Fighters ON (ridiculous, and they know it's a failure tactic but it still gets them off on some kind of superiority kick or maybe their bleeding hearts just push them into this kind of corner because they really have nothing better to do with their push to use custom fighters).

What? I'm active in the Custom Moveset Project Thread and the Opinions on Customs Thread, where most of Smashboards' pro-customs folks lie, and I don't recall any attempts to hold Miis hostage in those discussions. Talking about Miis boiled down to 1) they should be legal, 2) in (at least) a customs-on environment there would be optimal size variety because of the uploading the Project uses, and 3) they may or may not be a completely different issue from customs altogether.

 

[T0MMY]

What? I'm active in the Custom Moveset Project Thread and the Opinions on Customs Thread, where most of Smashboards' pro-customs folks lie, and I don't recall any attempts to hold Miis hostage in those discussions. Talking about Miis boiled down to 1) they should be legal, 2) in (at least) a customs-on environment there would be optimal size variety because of the uploading the Project uses, and 3) they may or may not be a completely different issue from customs altogether.

It's not an organized attack, it's an overarching reaction from the people I have interviewed who are supporting Mii bans or restrictions. The most adamant ban/restrict supporters are always people who are also adamant about using custom moves and say the usual scrub mantra "it's not fair..." - in this case "it's not fair Mii fighters can use customs and I can't" as though they cannot figure out that Mii fighters are not competitors and they are characters that anyone can use, so yes it is fair that every competitor has access to all characters and are expected to exploit all characters to their potential.
I am not saying there is a concentrated and organized group of people who conspire to hold the Mii hostages, but what I am saying is that there are too many scrubs in the ranks of the pro-custom movement (or at least were... many have probably already deserted the community as I predicted), these scrubs I identify as "custom zealots" who are all supporting banning/restricting Mii by grasping at the straw that maybe enough people are dumb enough to think that 1) Mii use "customs" (without evidence), and 2) Think that somehow their irrational opinion matters more than the designers of the game and the software itself to the point of changing rulesets and hurting the community.

I don't want to blanket all of you customs supporters as those who do this sinful action, of course, which is why I refer to these special types as zealots who seem to have been trying to pull every trick they can to force others to play by their rules; some of these types, I believe, still remain post-EVO2015.

If you are active in the customs circle please let them know many of the Mii mains harbor anti-customs sentiments simply because of how these zealots have treated us (we are also on questionable terms with Palutena mains as well).
If you see any zealots in your customs discussion sayings Miis use "customs" or that they need to be restricted to be "fair" then call them out on it. Simply ask where the game defines them as customs, point out custom fighters does not affect the Mii, and even if they are using "customs" that the developers and the software hold greater authority than that scrub's opinion and that it is competitively more valuable to not place the scrubby rules on them and better for the community as well.

The Mii community has been relatively good to the custom supporters and fully support any competitively viable ruleset so it's good to keep your area in check so we can all come together as Smashers and just play the game we want to play instead of trying to force others to conform to our individual demands.

 

[Jacques Núanáin]

Small mii brawler, 2/2/2/2 (I despise 1/1/1/1) would be lovely to play with in a tournament setting. Unfortunately isn't even allowed in smaller, weekly tournaments... sigh.

 

[Sensane]

I may be a little late to say something, but I just want to say this right now:

Hey ZeRo, if someone beat you with Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Zelda, Bowser, or any other low tier would you call them OP? Also, I'm going to say something similar to what Leffen said when Diddy Kong was controversial: "A person who plays Fox in Melee, MK in Brawl, Pit in PM, and Sheik in Smash 4 did not have to cry 'ridiculous' after losing to one guy who used him". But the real question right now is how much money should I bet that ZeRo will main/use small brawler soon enough?

 

[Ian Viola]

why would he use a character worse than sheik that you can use less often

 

[Sensane]

why would he use a character worse than sheik that you can use less often

Same reason he recently picked up Dr. Mario: he sees something in that character and feels that that character would be top tier.