Q&A Zero Suit Samus- Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread

[BatShark]

Both.

Yep. Great for poking but leads into grabs or dash attack at low %. You can gimp a few people offstage with it too because it's a very unexpected option, but you have to refer to Zair use in this fashion as 'The Ziggler'.

 

[Nate22Hill]

what are some of zss's approaches??

 

[BatShark]

Anyone know if the Side B trump and standard trump are any different in terms of when you can actually pop the opponent up? Are there any particular visual cues or timing tricks people use to get the earliest possible ledge trumps?

 

[Shaya]

side-b ledge grab will technically act out faster than a regular one, but im not sure how many frames we're wasting by run off side-b over a regular trump.

But in general if you can trump someone with the tether, that's the optimal choice.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Anyone know if the Side B trump and standard trump are any different in terms of when you can actually pop the opponent up? Are there any particular visual cues or timing tricks people use to get the earliest possible ledge trumps?

Pop up time is the same but you can act faster out of tether trump.

 

[Muffin!]

Curious as to what people do to practice when they aren't actually playing matches. I had a bit of trouble with precision (tilts when I intend smashes, regular attacks when I wanted reverses) so I used a few drills I go through that seemed to clear things up pretty quickly. I did 10 in a row of each of the following. If I missed one I had to start over:
dsmash to F smashes
reverse boost kicks (grounded)
dashing reverse flip kicks
uair to boostkick combo kills
dsmash to flip kick spikes
rar bairs on a jumping target

I seem to have these things down pretty well, so I'm looking to change things up. Obviously there are more combos and follow ups I can incorporate, but I wanted to see what you all do with your practice time.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

you could add
wavebounce / b reverse / turnaround nSpecial
instant Tether ledge trump
SH airdodge > uAir / bAir / fAir
PP dSmash / dTilt
properly hitting with zAir
OOS JC uSpecial / uSmash
OOS SH instant uAir / fAir / bAir / dAir
All of our combos and their respective percentages

 

[Muffin!]

SH airdodge > uAir / bAir / fAir

I thought I pretty well knew everything but what is this? Just an approaching tool? Tried it in training mode and it seems like you have to be almost frame perfect to pull off the bair of uair.

Also, I never really see the grounded wavebounce used with ZSS. is that something anyone practices or does it just not provide much utility to zss?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I thought I pretty well knew everything but what is this? Just an approaching tool? Tried it in training mode and it seems like you have to be almost frame perfect to pull off the bair of uair.

Also, I never really see the grounded wavebounce used with ZSS. is that something anyone practices or does it just not provide much utility to zss?

It's an approaching tool. Once you get the timing right you will notice that it's fairly easy to do. (Thanks again Shaya)
I don't practice grounded wavebounce at all and I don't remember seeing it anywhere, but that's just me.

 

[X3nostar]

Hello fellow Zss players,

I am currently at a struggle as I really want to main Zss but not doing at all too well in FG with her.
To sum up what I am currently struggling with:
- Shorter characters, SH Nair FF seems to become a very hard problem (and about SH Nair FF, what to do when your opponent back dodges? tried Ftilt or Jab but always get hit in the process?)
- (Yoshi) Rolling players (So far using dash attack to attempt to punish the back rolls but not being all to succesfull with it)
- Down attack?

Overall for a highly agile character like Zss I feel like I am quite slow are there cooldowns and such I need to take into account?
I will leave it at this for now, will be very thankful for any help I can get to get better with her, seeing the streams people are making with her is very exciting.

Regards

X3no

 

[David Viran]

That's just FG being FG. It makes everything harder and zss becomes super difficult to play. If they back roll you can either go for a dash grab or something if you will hit or you can just walk forward and claim the stage control they just gave up.

 

[David Viran]

I thought I pretty well knew everything but what is this? Just an approaching tool? Tried it in training mode and it seems like you have to be almost frame perfect to pull off the bair of uair.

Also, I never really see the grounded wavebounce used with ZSS. is that something anyone practices or does it just not provide much utility to zss?

SH AD Is good for people who try to read and punish your SH on the rise. This is one of zss's bigger weaknesses and it helps to mix it up with SH but try to jump backwards more often than not.

 

[Muffin!]

Would this work well against characters like Marth whose aerials out range us? SH, AD through a fair, uair. Or does it really only work against grounded opponents? Also how significant is this tech? Is it something minor that gives an almost trivial advantage, or is it something significant that can change your neutral?

 

[David Viran]

It's significant against people who know how fight zss because they will punish your SH too easily. Against marth you don't need to AD his aerials because zair outranges everything.

 

[X3nostar]

Hey David

Thanks voor de feedback.
Yeah I try to practise more with punishing rolls althou I feel like Yoshi is super fast with Re-rolling after his initial roll but that might be just me with slow reaction or something (have the same problem with Samus).
Also what do you guys suggest as a better option when someone is below Zss in the air (especially when off stage)?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

FG ruins 80% of her moveset.
I've got an 85% winrate with nSpecial and dSpecial alone and stopped playing FG months ago.
FG will neither teach you proper spacing nor proper matchup knowledge.
I advice you to stick to offline play with friends / bots (bots heavily punish you if your spacing is off or your grab too slow) and the training mode for tech practice.

 

[X3nostar]

Hi Tobi

Thanx for the advise!
Yes a level 9 CPU seems like godmode in this game with it's precision, althou I did see some ways to exploit the AI which is kinda sad but going after the CPU in a real fight is very hard.
I saw some other post where you suggested some tech's to practise I will go for that now to get my musle memory in tact and mix it up with some CPU fighting in between.
Main focus now is to get as fluid in movement as like i said before I do feel like I am kinda slow guess practise mode will help with that.
Anyway Thanks for the tips guys I will report back on progress.

Regards

X3no

 

[Aetheri]

Jab ftilt and dtilt can be effective followups to a SHFF nair if you whiff...with jabs don't hit all three unless the first one connects as it is very punishable when shielded...
You'll need to use dtilts for shorter characters if you space it right it can lead to aerial followup or a dash attack...you also make yourself a smaller target when you crouch which can be handy for those Kirbys and Pikachus that like to use aerials...

sometimes a good mixup when approaching is SH dair they usually expect a dash attack or grab and it catches short characters who crouch...you want to use her dair sparingly though sometimes when going for her dthrow uair combo you'll whiff the uair due to DI or an air dodge her dair can be a decent followup...sometimes baiting a smash attack and a SH into dair can be a decent punish sometimes if you connect it can setup for a bair followup...

One cool thing about her first jab is that it comes out in one frame...this important for disrupting combos and if you get caught in Ness's PK fire as it may prevent them from grabbing you...although her down b can get her out of trouble at times as well...

 

[Pinnacle-eSport]

I try to practice character specific ways to ledge trump. For yoshi I like to be able to do the standard joystick roll but also to space and time a yoshi bomb ledge trump to possibly throw them off timing wise and the fact that it has a hit box

 

[X3nostar]

Hey Bobert77

Thanx for the feedback!
Althou I am a bit skeptical about the Dair thou since the end lag is also serverly punishable but then again you said use it sparingly (and another thing about Dair is sometimes it goes down fast and sometimes it lingers in the air a bit, I guess it has something to do with momentum in the air, if your still in upward momentum it lingers, but when your in downward momentum it goes fast, so far my theory about this)
Didn't know Jab could get me out of PK fire O.o (Althou I did see Take 5's tutorial and saw him get out of some combo's with it as well)
OOh Dthrow -> Uair -> Uair -> Uspecial is something that rarely connects in FD, they always manage to DI so far away, so now I mostly go for Dthrow -> Fair -> Fair -> Dspecial also heavily depends on DI but mostly the first Fair hits.
Wil try various combo's to see how they connect)

Regards

X3no

 

[Aetheri]

Hey Bobert77

Thanx for the feedback!
Althou I am a bit skeptical about the Dair thou since the end lag is also serverly punishable but then again you said use it sparingly (and another thing about Dair is sometimes it goes down fast and sometimes it lingers in the air a bit, I guess it has something to do with momentum in the air, if your still in upward momentum it lingers, but when your in downward momentum it goes fast, so far my theory about this)
Didn't know Jab could get me out of PK fire O.o (Althou I did see Take 5's tutorial and saw him get out of some combo's with it as well)
OOh Dthrow -> Uair -> Uair -> Uspecial is something that rarely connects in FD, they always manage to DI so far away, so now I mostly go for Dthrow -> Fair -> Fair -> Dspecial also heavily depends on DI but mostly the first Fair hits.
Wil try various combo's to see how they connect)

Regards

X3no

Dair lingers if you try to use it too soon after being hit...another reason to use it sparingly, however there were a few times when I'd catch my opponent off guard with it as they don't expect it to descend slowly and they get caught with the spike anyways...

It was pretty hilarious one time a Ness caught me in Pk Fire literally right next to me, and my jabs hit him multiple times because the fire would cancel the end frames of each hit so each jab came out every second frame...of course this won't work if you're not grounded in which case try to escape with a down B...

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I have recently found good practice on Anthers ladder. If you have a wired connection and sort opponents by their distance from you, it works out great.

 

[pichuthedk]

Hmm I suppose I should give it a try I was rather enjoying the online tournament mode despite it's flaws. I was finding less morons on it. Either that or my hiatus has mad me super bad....which is totally plausible xD.

 

[FUEGO!]

So I want to know if this is just Placebo, but does using Side B to activate the tether recovery result in more successful grabs of the ledge? Because it seems A LOT more reliable that just pressing the jump button to turn the Zair into the tether recovery. I mean, I know the benefit of being able to use tether when you are facing away from the ledge, and the only character that can do this because of B reversing, but it feels like it's grabbing the ledge more often and from more angles than Zairing the ledge.

Thoughts?

 

[Shaya]

It's similar interaction I think but always the better/smarter choice.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So I want to know if this is just Placebo, but does using Side B to activate the tether recovery result in more successful grabs of the ledge? Because it seems A LOT more reliable that just pressing the jump button to turn the Zair into the tether recovery. I mean, I know the benefit of being able to use tether when you are facing away from the ledge, and the only character that can do this because of B reversing, but it feels like it's grabbing the ledge more often and from more angles than Zairing the ledge.

Thoughts?

You can do sSpecial recovery out of tumble which is great.

 

[FUEGO!]

You can do sSpecial recovery out of tumble which is great.

That's all i needed. Never using Zair for Tether again unless an absolute necessity. To not have to jump to get out of tumble (or air dodge) and THEN tether is amazing!!

 

[ThrivingIvan]

Is there anyone willing to teach me zss in 3ds? I've been wanting to pick her up but no one in my area can play her.

 

[Muffin!]

Can anyone comment on the grounded wave bounce and pivot F smash? Are they worth worth investing time in to practice? They seem useful, but I never seem to see any ZSS use them.

 

[Remzi]

You can't do a grounded wave bounce for a neutral special since a b-reverse is the only thing that allows you to turn the special around in the first place.

As for the fsmash, I've always been uncertain myself about the difference in inputs for pivot fsmash and pivot ftilt out of run. Like I can do a pivot ftilt 100% consistently, but when I try to pivot fsmash i have like a 50% success rate and I'm not sure why. Any advice on that would be appreciated.

Also, zair is good for recovery if you wanna airdodge first since you can zair directly out of airdodge, but thats pretty much the only time i'll choose zair over side b.

 

[Arcana~]

I like to think the reason pivot Fsmashing seems trickier than Fsmashing normally is simply because when you try to do an Fsmash in the opposite direction you were just dashing in your control stick is positioned all the way over to the left/right side as opposed to being in the neutral position. When you do a normal standing Fsmash, your control stick starts at the neutral position before you input the forward+attack to execute the smash. When you pivot Fsmash, your control stick must go from one side all the way to the other. The difference in the stick positions in correlation to when you press the attack button is slightly throwing off your input sometimes without realizing it. You just need to do a teeny bit of compensation to make up for the extra distance the stick has to be moved before you press attack to do the Fsmash out of the dash. I find it works more consistently if you move the stick just a fraction of a second before pressing attack.

 

[Jaxas]

You can't do a grounded wave bounce for a neutral special since a b-reverse is the only thing that allows you to turn the special around in the first place.

As for the fsmash, I've always been uncertain myself about the difference in inputs for pivot fsmash and pivot ftilt out of run. Like I can do a pivot ftilt 100% consistently, but when I try to pivot fsmash i have like a 50% success rate and I'm not sure why. Any advice on that would be appreciated.

Also, zair is good for recovery if you wanna airdodge first since you can zair directly out of airdodge, but thats pretty much the only time i'll choose zair over side b.

Actually....

(Shoutouts to @TheReflexWonder )

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Looks like you can grounded wavebounce with ZSS, but she moves backwards about... the length of one of her feet? Ish? It's not very much.

I also made an interesting discovery regarding buffered up aerials. It seemed that there was only one way to get consistent short hop buffered aerials, and that was to use tap jump and the "double stick" method. With tap jump on, you can hit the control stick up and the c-stick up (if it's set to attack) and get a buffered up air. Other methods require fast hands, run the risk of getting a full jump, are often not frame perfect due to hand movement requirements, and could not generally produce frame perfect up airs. I have another method here:

First, as a definition, "control stick throw" is in reference to the amount the control stick is tilted in a given direction. This method requires X or Y as jump, and A as attack, or an equivalent setup.

It seems there are three degrees of control stick throw: low throw, mid throw, and full throw. Here's the setup:
Slide your hand from X to A with the control stick at a given throw.

At low throw, you get a short hop buffered neutral air
At mid throw, you get a short hop buffered up air
At full throw, you get a jump cancelled up smash

This aligns with a method described previously, but it adds an element (control stick throw) that allows for frame perfect up airs without tap jump, fast c-sticking, or delicate shoulder button short hop finesse. I'll be giving this a go and seeing how difficult it is to use. Note: for ZSS, this allows her to do a buffered short hop up air... then jump again or land with regular landing lag (2 frames slow land, 4 frames fast fall).

EDIT -

This doesn't seem to work out of shield. I'll look into it more and update.

 

[Muffin!]

You can't do a grounded wave bounce for a neutral special since a b-reverse is the only thing that allows you to turn the special around in the first place.

As for the fsmash, I've always been uncertain myself about the difference in inputs for pivot fsmash and pivot ftilt out of run. Like I can do a pivot ftilt 100% consistently, but when I try to pivot fsmash i have like a 50% success rate and I'm not sure why. Any advice on that would be appreciated.

Also, zair is good for recovery if you wanna airdodge first since you can zair directly out of airdodge, but thats pretty much the only time i'll choose zair over side b.

If you use Direction+A+B to do the pivot smash it comes out very consistently. I struggle with Direction+A as well and usually get a tilt but smashing with A+B fixed that.

Grounded wave bounce is in the video, but I found it's difficult to pull off since you have to hit a shoulder and c stick on the same frame, much more difficult than a joystick and button. Not sure if it's worth investing time into.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

If you use Direction+A+B to do the pivot smash it comes out very consistently. I struggle with Direction+A as well and usually get a tilt but smashing with A+B fixed that.

Grounded wave bounce is in the video, but I found it's difficult to pull off since you have to hit a shoulder and c stick on the same frame, much more difficult than a joystick and button. Not sure if it's worth investing time into.

Interesting. I found the joystick based wave bounce method to be so difficult, I only use the shoulder button + attack stick method of wave bouncing.

 

[T-Loc]

Looks like you can grounded wavebounce with ZSS, but she moves backwards about... the length of one of her feet? Ish? It's not very much.

I also made an interesting discovery regarding buffered up aerials. It seemed that there was only one way to get consistent short hop buffered aerials, and that was to use tap jump and the "double stick" method. With tap jump on, you can hit the control stick up and the c-stick up (if it's set to attack) and get a buffered up air. Other methods require fast hands, run the risk of getting a full jump, are often not frame perfect due to hand movement requirements, and could not generally produce frame perfect up airs. I have another method here:

First, as a definition, "control stick throw" is in reference to the amount the control stick is tilted in a given direction. This method requires X or Y as jump, and A as attack, or an equivalent setup.

It seems there are three degrees of control stick throw: low throw, mid throw, and full throw. Here's the setup:
Slide your hand from X to A with the control stick at a given throw.

At low throw, you get a short hop buffered neutral air
At mid throw, you get a short hop buffered up air
At full throw, you get a jump cancelled up smash

This aligns with a method described previously, but it adds an element (control stick throw) that allows for frame perfect up airs without tap jump, fast c-sticking, or delicate shoulder button short hop finesse. I'll be giving this a go and seeing how difficult it is to use. Note: for ZSS, this allows her to do a buffered short hop up air... then jump again or land with regular landing lag (2 frames slow land, 4 frames fast fall).

EDIT -

This doesn't seem to work out of shield. I'll look into it more and update.

I actually had a discussion on reddit with VABengal about this. It's possible to get full benefits of double sticking and the Auto SH frame perfect UpAirs WITHOUT having the pesky tap jump on.

In my controller set up, I have TJ off, the left trigger set to jump, and the c-stick set to attack. As long as I press both the left trigger and up on the left stick and c-stick at the same time (mimicking the double -sticking tap jump input but with also pressing L), I automatically buffer the SH UAir, regardless of how long I hold the left trigger.

In addition, Tuen, I started using Z as "special" to get more consistent B-Reverses and Wave-Bounces with the Z+C-stick method you brought up a while back. I also am using A+B=>smash to help a little with the PP DSmashes that Shaya talked about(still hard as sh*t though). As it stands, my final controller set up is as follows:

Tap Jump: Off
A+B smash: On
L: Jump
Z: Special
X: Grab
C-Stick: Attack
Everything else is default.

I've gone through like 8 different iterations of it and I think this is FINALLY the optimal setup. I can't think of anything any of the other setups provide that this misses out on, and it's only problem is that it takes a couple hours to get used to the L-Jump Sticking and OoS UpBs and such.

 

[Muffin!]

I think I'm going to steal that controller setup T-loc. Right now mine is the same except I set L to special for the grounded wave bounce. My Z is set to grab but I never use it since I have X. Set Z to special and L to jump and you get the wave bounce and frame perfect Uairs. Thanks!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I have special on r and b now for dem ez wavebounces.

 

[Shaya]

I was practicing the position on the left-stick for a while but reliably doing it out of a dash was much too complicated, so tilt-stick/double stick approach.
(Think Nair that we can usually combo into flip kick, well that same nair should be able to combo into dash up air).

I can buffer up air using X [I'm weird and don't use Y much] + c stick up too and that's what I'm doing half the time anyway still.

Also buffered fast fall up air auto cancels from everything I can see, so that puts our fast fall landing at 24 or 25 frames I believe.
Funnily enough IIRC, Sheik is around the same.

The main sway now for me with tilt stick/double sticking is essentially having down and away already pre-set up on the left while timing aerials with the right. Retreating and fast fall magic.

I also love how buffered up air can land with a second up air (without anything coming out), but you'll get to hear the "whoosh" sound. It's quite enjoyable

 

[FUEGO!]

How could someone go about practicing lamding the spike hitbox of Filp Kick's kick. I seem to always just get the horizontal knockback instead of the spike no matter how on target it feels,