Zelda's throws: Uses + discussion

[Pika_thunder]

So I feel like with the Zelda "combos" thread we need a Zelda throws thread. The purpose of this thread is to have people's various throw questions answered so I'm going to post a basic overview of each throw then explain it.


Thank you to the Zelda frame data thread for the Gifs and data!



Forward throw

no Gif

Frame Total: 60
Thrown: Frame 33
Angle: 60°
Knockback Growth: 42%
Damage: 12
The use of this throw seems limited to me. Others have other opinions of this throw, but I think it's her least useful throw. I know that this throw counters up-DI as it will combo to uair. I also believe with inward DI it combos to Nair on certain characters.
Overall 1/5 (there are pretty much always better options.)

Back throw

Frame Total: 60
Thrown: Frame 29
Angle: 45° (Actually 315° since it is a back throw)
Knockback Growth: 87%
Damage: 11
This throw kills at ~120% in most people that don't DI. It will kill a little later on people who DI this throw up. But grab someone at around 150% and just start laughing because they're dead and there is nothing they can do about it.
5/5 epic kill throw

Up throw

Frame Total: 60
Thrown: Frame 30
Angle: 90°
Knockback Growth: 60%
Damage: 9
Used for chain grabbing spacies. That's about it. Sometimes, if your opponent is a heavy character and doesn't jump, this can lead to Nair/ Uair.
3/5 situational but great against spacies.

Down throw

Frame Total: 75
Hitboxes: Frames 25-26, 31-32, 37-38, 43-44
Thrown: Frame 51
IASA: Frame 68
Angle: 60°
Knockback Growth: 36%
Damage: 3(*4), 3(*1)
My personal favorite, even though it is not the best. 15% off of a throw with combo options off of wrong DI? (forward, up, down, and no DI) I'll take it! But this throw has some glaring issues, it's slow, is un follow up-able off of correct DI + tech roll, and each type of DI calls for a different follow-up.
3/5 good for damage/ combos against ignorant opponents.



But writing this has got me thinking. I am thinking in "what if" so this might just be stupid. But I don't see why this wouldn't work, so explain to me why I am a moron below.

What if Zelda's Fthrow + Dthrow were sped up + changed into a DI mix-up. DI the wrong war and you get Naired at high percentage and ftilted at low percentage.

Just my thought, feel free to post yours below.​

 

[BJN39]

The idea sounds pretty interesting, but sadly, it would likely not happen. At least, that's what I expect. I mean, we're talking Zelda. People (read: whiny john-ers) definitely don't want it to be HARDER to fight Zelda. < _ <

Don't let that stop you from purposing the idea, it's been rumored zelda is getting changes anyways, maybe this could be added. ^ ^

 

[Arcalyth]

I think of Zelda's throws in contrast to Sheik's throws. Sheik's DI mixup between dthrow and bthrow is really obvious, whereas messing up your opponent's DI with Zelda has quite a bit more nuance. When I'm choosing which throw to use, I'm considering momentum, percentage, and Din's Fire. For example, you can often you can catch people off guard with a fast bthrow which they will DI downward expecting uthrow or fthrow, leading to very salty low-percent kills. Similarly, you can train people to DI away from dthrow, then do a fast fthrow (her fastest throw) and get a free ftilt/aerial (edit: lol isn't this pretty much what your suggestion is?). I've found success in comboing some characters like Sonic with uthrow, including uthrow>kick.

Zelda's grab game changes significantly when augmented by Din's Fire, and her grabs are integral to her traps. The obvious: throwing people into mines, pummeling them to time out an explosion. Slightly less obvious: multi-din traps where each fireball covers a different DI/throw option, forcing the opponent to make a decision QUICKLY while they are receiving pummel damage and have ticking fireballs around them, which often ultimately leads to incorrect DI and/or a free kick/explosion.

Research into her grab combos is something I've been meaning to do but have had very little time for... curse real life for dipping into my Smash time

 

[Justbngoode]

Zelda, or at least my Zelda, works heavily off of her throw game. Her throw to kick game is so strong that I feel as though rivaling falcon.
This also means that i think that these are guaranteed.
http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/1u57q8/database_project_m_30_database/
(PM Database to check fall speeds).
http://imgur.com/yKLmy9G
(Weight list, higher tier means a heavier character)

- Fthrow is by far the most useful combo throw on floaties, and Fthrow to fair is my bread and butter, since it leaves them in a fair amount of hitstun.

Works from Snake/2.12 fall speed and lower, can combo heavier characters at increased percentages.
​

- Uthrow is the go-to spacie destroyer, and once the chaingrab stops working at ~30%, you get to do what you do to all characters at 2.14 fall speed and above,

Make them feel helpless.
If they DI to any horizontal direction, you kick them in the face.
Should they surrender to the almighty power of your Zelda and not DI, at low percent you Nair them for damage and at higher percents you jump to the side and kick them in the face.​

- Dthrow is actually Zelda's worst throw right now. Should your opponent be floaty and DI like a potato you might be able to back air them,

but as Zelda's most damaging throw, it's only good as a setup into pre-placed dins and a getting people off stage to get stage-control.
If you really want stage control though, there's a far better throw.
which brings me to...​

- Bthrow is so good that it's not even funny. Giving Zelda smart option for killing, relieving space, and setting dins in one solid option.

You were saying it won't kill until 120%, but were you testing on some high weight character, like Bowser or something? I usually kill earlier then that.
Either way that doesn't matter, as if they do live, you should have a maze of dins set up anyways.
Giving Zelda space to set up dins is something that people try to stop in the matchup, so this throw is so relieving in that you can camp them out if you still want to.
​

Zelda's throws are a consistent tool that I throw (no pun intended) into my game frequently since there's a large amount of followups and uses for them.
It would be pretty hard for me to imagine Zelda with differing throws in any way, as i feel like it's one of her strongest tools right now.
All in all i'm pretty good where the throws are now.

 

[Pika_thunder]

Sadly Fthrow fair is NOT a combo. while with no DI on select characters it works, as stated by you, it requires your opponent DIs like a potato.

Good idea, but does not work. Also, Dthrow, RUN!, then jump to Fair might mix up well with Fthrow Fair.
Tested with human DI that combo does not work.

 

[Garde Noir]

I think you have an idea-- but why does every throw have to lead into a combo? Why can't it just be a throw-- a kill move, or a strong move that doesn't combo? I like Back throw best because I don't always need to combo, but if I'm facing the ledge with their back to the end of the screen, I'm pummel twice and forward throw because Back throw isn't a well kept secret. But I will just use throws as a kill most of the time because most people facing Zelda expect up-smash or an aerial for the kill. It's really easy to use standard B or a grounded Din's to stun them and dash grab-- then just throw them offstage, and get some distance. Then it's about edge-guarding: which is a different conversation. Either of the side throws can be used, it just happens that Back-throw is better, but don't diss forward throw. It may not combo all the time, but it shuffles them up, and keep the opponent off stage. I'd say it's as situational as any of the other throws.

 

[Justbngoode]

Sadly Fthrow fair is NOT a combo. while with no DI on select characters it works, as stated by you, it requires your opponent DIs like a potato.

Good idea, but does not work. Also, Dthrow, RUN!, then jump to Fair might mix up well with Fthrow Fair.
Tested with human DI that combo does not work.

I play every Friday against the same group of people who have gotten VERY good at DI'ing most of Zelda's... everything.
Fthrow to Fair IS however character dependent, as both weight, fall speed, and DI take factor into if it works.
I'm moderately confident that it is fairly (I'm back to puns) optimal on a number of the cast.

As far as Dthrow works I can't see it be used unless they DI towards Zelda giving follow ups, a trap into dins, or forcing your opponent to tech, and techchasing is not one of Zelda's strong points imo.
On some floaties they do not need to tech, and can influence their horizontal trajectory even further away from Zelda, and can even do attacks out of it if they are float enough.
Zelda's run speed is not really compatible with this throw so follow ups are limited, and Teledashing in takes too much time for fast fallers and is susceptible to punish by floaties.

 

[Pika_thunder]

D throw to Bair/ fair works on all DI but behind. You just have to know their angle

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I play every Friday against the same group of people who have gotten VERY good at DI'ing most of Zelda's... everything.
Fthrow to Fair IS however character dependent, as both weight, fall speed, and DI take factor into if it works.
I'm moderately confident that it is fairly (I'm back to puns) optimal on a number of the cast.

As far as Dthrow works I can't see it be used unless they DI towards Zelda giving follow ups, a trap into dins, or forcing your opponent to tech, and techchasing is not one of Zelda's strong points imo.
On some floaties they do not need to tech, and can influence their horizontal trajectory even further away from Zelda, and can even do attacks out of it if they are float enough.
Zelda's run speed is not really compatible with this throw so follow ups are limited, and Teledashing in takes too much time for fast fallers and is susceptible to punish by floaties.

Hey Justbngoode check your messages. You've got an invite for something I think you might be interested in.

(Sorry for not being related to the topic.)

 

[Deviljho]

read: whiny john-ers

ohmygoshihatezeldasheonlyneedslightningkickandnaryusluvandshewinsomygoshlighningkickissodumbnerfzeldaplswhensmarvelzeldaplssuchlighningkickznerfplszeldaisbrokenstahpwithlighningkicksdataintfalcozeldaisnofuntofightsogladzeldaisbeingnerfedallheraerialsarekneesnerfplsneuterallbissodumbzeldaneedznurfstupidlightningkickzeldaisnofuntoplayagainstichooseyoupikachuihatezeldaplschangehalpzeldaissobrokennowaytolearnthematchupplshalpusfromfoxsonlybadmuneedsnerfcuzmeleeyoshiyoshiskrewzeldacuzshessospammytoomanylighningkicksihatezeldashessodumb

 

[Pika_thunder]

ohmygoshihatezeldasheonlyneedslightningkickandnaryusluvandshewinsomygoshlighningkickissodumbnerfzeldaplswhensmarvelzeldaplssuchlighningkickznerfplszeldaisbrokenstahpwithlighningkicksdataintfalcozeldaisnofuntofightsogladzeldaisbeingnerfedallheraerialsarekneesnerfplsneuterallbissodumbzeldaneedznurfstupidlightningkickzeldaisnofuntoplayagainstichooseyoupikachuihatezeldaplschangehalpzeldaissobrokennowaytolearnthematchupplshalpusfromfoxsonlybadmuneedsnerfcuzmeleeyoshiyoshiskrewzeldacuzshessospammytoomanylighningkicksihatezeldashessodumb

I read your post top to bottom. I now know what it's like to be inside of a headache.

 

[Wavebuster]

If you're against someone who is susceptible to grabs but isn't really a character who's Fthrow combo bait, the damage of pummels + Dthrow shouldn't be underestimated. 1/2 Pummels + Dthrow is 19/22 damage. Eventually they'll be wondering "when did I take so much damage?"

I also like it to get floaties offstage behind me if they're not in Bthrow kill range, as Bthrow launches too high and too far for Zelda to pressure floaty recoveries.