Zelda Social Thread

[WhiteLightnin]

Hi Whitelightnin, it's always nice to see another player interested in Zelda. ^ ^

What advanced techniques do you know about already? Because I'd love to tell you any techs you don't already know.

EDIT; oh yeah, I noticed a thread in the marth boards asking about the Zelda MU if any of you wanna go give some input.

Hey thanks BJN! It's nice to meet you.

There's a lot of techniques that come to mind both general/specific so I guess I'll just list out what I can think of: wavedash, waveland, JC grab, JC UpSmash (OoS), c-stick buffered roll/spot dodge/jump, moonwalk (without or with assistance of c-stick with attack button held down), DI, SDI, ASDI, tech (floor/ledge/wall), pivot grab, pivot tilts, pivot smashes (with or without auto c-stick with attack button held down), dash dancing, crouch canceling, dash canceling, L-canceling, SHFFL, shield platform dropping (in place or moving), powershielding, shield angling, shield SDI, RAR, b-reversals (before and after input), AGT

FW grounded cancel (mind games including platforms), FW auto-snap ledge (from on stage and already on ledge to refresh), intangibility on Nayru's, land canceled Nayru's, love jump Nayru's, reverse momentum Nayru's (love jump and momentum properties with FW as well), Din's recovery assistance (both for horizontal movement and to protect point of reentry), Din's timing for explosion (also d-B triggered), Din's refresh timer, Din's fire held on ground for hitbox but stall/no refresh of timer, Din's placement to assist with combos/limiting options/grabs, land canceled Uair, SH two aerials (kicks, neutral, etc.), intangibility on arm for Utilt, tools for combos (grab, d-tilt, f-tilt, Nayru's, Uair, Dair, etc.).

Phew, that's what I can think of right now. I'm sure I'm forgetting some stuff. I've also heard of variations of boost grabbing but I don't know how to perform them or if they are even in PM. Also, not sure if Zelda has a DACUS and how effective it would be. Thanks for taking the time to read all of this! lol

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Well I first encountered PM at an anime convention I went to so that would be November 16. It took me a little bit of time to get set up for it after that. I've started getting involved in a local scene here, and people have been pretty impressed so far mentioning they can't wait to see my continued growth. We're definitely not a well known scene here in NM (as far as I know), but we're hoping to change that very soon coming this February. I've been doing a lot of reading up on any advanced techniques for PM I can find (general and Zelda specific) and am currently in the process of solidly implementing them. I have been playing Smash since its 64 days, but honestly I don't really have that much I can compare myself to so it's hard for me to answer your second question. lol Sorry for such a long-winded response.

That's completely fine, wish I had the ability to do the same, you want to play online? I'm not sure if how your Zelda measures up to mine (or vise versa), but I'm willing to give it a shot!
If that's a yes, let's set up a conversation.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

That's completely fine, wish I had the ability to do the same, you want to play online? I'm not sure if how your Zelda measures up to mine (or vise versa), but I'm willing to give it a shot!
If that's a yes, let's set up a conversation.

Yeah that sounds like a blast! I haven't tried PM online at all yet so I don't know how I will be with some of the differences I've heard about from the full set version and lag and all.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Well I first encountered PM at an anime convention I went to so that would be November 16. It took me a little bit of time to get set up for it after that. I've started getting involved in a local scene here, and people have been pretty impressed so far mentioning they can't wait to see my continued growth. We're definitely not a well known scene here in NM (as far as I know), but we're hoping to change that very soon coming this February. I've been doing a lot of reading up on any advanced techniques for PM I can find (general and Zelda specific) and am currently in the process of solidly implementing them. I have been playing Smash since its 64 days, but honestly I don't really have that much I can compare myself to so it's hard for me to answer your second question. lol Sorry for such a long-winded response.

That's completely fine, wish I had the ability to do the same, you want to play online? I'm not sure if how your Zelda measures up to mine (or vise versa), but I'm willing to give it a shot!
If that's a yes, let's set up a conversation.

Hey thanks BJN! It's nice to meet you.

There's a lot of techniques that come to mind both general/specific so I guess I'll just list out what I can think of: wavedash, waveland, JC grab, JC UpSmash (OoS), c-stick buffered roll/spot dodge/jump, moonwalk (without or with assistance of c-stick with attack button held down), DI, SDI, ASDI, tech (floor/ledge/wall), pivot grab, pivot tilts, pivot smashes (with or without auto c-stick with attack button held down), dash dancing, crouch canceling, dash canceling, L-canceling, SHFFL, shield platform dropping (in place or moving), powershielding, shield angling, RAR, b-reversals (before and after input), AGT

FW grounded cancel (mind games including platforms), FW auto-snap ledge (from on stage and already on ledge to refresh), intangibility on Nayru's, land canceled Nayru's, love jump Nayru's, reverse momentum Nayru's (love jump and momentum properties with FW as well), Din's recovery assistance (both for horizontal movement and to protect point of reentry), Din's timing for explosion (also d-B triggered), Din's refresh timer, Din's fire held on ground for hitbox but stall/no refresh of timer, Din's placement to assist with combos/limiting options/grabs, land canceled Uair, SH two aerials (kicks, neutral, etc.), intangibility on arm for Utilt, tools for combos (grab, d-tilt, f-tilt, Nayru's, Uair, Dair, etc.).

Phew, that's what I can think of right now. I'm sure I'm forgetting some stuff. I've also heard of variations of boost grabbing but I don't know how to perform them or if they are even in PM. Also, not sure if Zelda has a DACUS and how effective it would be. Thanks for taking the time to read all of this! lol

Wow! I might have a thing or two to learn! Also good to know: teledashing, Nayru b reversed fastfall, her taunts, her mindgames... Not that long of a list but still VERY important.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Conversation done, let's see what you got!

Yeah that sounds like a blast! I haven't tried PM online at all yet so I don't know how I will be with some of the differences I've heard about from the full set version and lag and all.

 

[the_irish_dude]

This sounds like 2 Zeldas vs lag.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

This sounds like 2 Zeldas vs lag.

Uh oh, is the online just as bad for PM as it is for Brawl?

 

[Arcalyth]

PM Wifi is pretty laggy but it's tolerable. You get used to it.

Brawl enforces 6 frames of input lag on wifi no matter what so you have that as a baseline, followed by whatever the conditions of your connection are. Better connection == less lag but it will never be as good as offline. That said wifi is still worth it for playing vs actual players. Many players, myself included, and Zhime as a notable example, have seen substantial improvement in their gameplay thanks to wifi.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

PM Wifi is pretty laggy but it's tolerable. You get used to it.

Brawl enforces 6 frames of input lag on wifi no matter what so you have that as a baseline, followed by whatever the conditions of your connection are. Better connection == less lag but it will never be as good as offline. That said wifi is still worth it for playing vs actual players. Many players, myself included, and Zhime as a notable example, have seen substantial improvement in their gameplay thanks to wifi.

Thanks for the info Arcalyth. I had no idea Brawl had an auto 6 frame input lag. I'm excited to try it out.

 

[GKInfinity]

I can't stand the online lag for PM sadly

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I can't stand the online lag for PM sadly

Does it feel better than brawl? I would think without the auto 6 frame input of lag there would be a noticeable difference.

 

[jtm94]

I was watching some other peeps on youtube use Zelda and I got excited again.

I'm just working on refreshing my playstyle. I was beating my buddy today without using Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, OR Lightning Kicks. I can play without Din's Fire, but playing without the kicks opened my mind to all of the moves I never use. I realized I don't use Side Smash that much, Nair is really nifty, UTilt just takes some timing to land, and I still can't get a handle on DTilt. I try to make use of it, but I have yet to use it effectively.

 

[GKInfinity]

Does it feel better than brawl? I would think without the auto 6 frame input of lag there would be a noticeable difference.

It's certainly better than brawl, but it's still laggy enough that it's just frustrating to play

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I was watching some other peeps on youtube use Zelda and I got excited again.

I'm just working on refreshing my playstyle. I was beating my buddy today without using Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, OR Lightning Kicks. I can play without Din's Fire, but playing without the kicks opened my mind to all of the moves I never use. I realized I don't use Side Smash that much, Nair is really nifty, UTilt just takes some timing to land, and I still can't get a handle on DTilt. I try to make use of it, but I have yet to use it effectively.

Hey jtm94, glad to hear you are getting into Zelda again. I've found DTilt can be pretty effective as an edgeguarding tool. If they have any sort of damage on them it's almost a guaranteed kill as you can follow up with either a FSmash, or a Lightning kick. It's nice because it reaches so low.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

It's certainly better than brawl, but it's still laggy enough that it's just frustrating to play

Yeah. It just sucks to have lag after being so used to normal play, especially when it screws up your combos. Also when you know how to deal with something but you just can't because of the lag. Nice to meet you btw.

 

[the_irish_dude]

alright so here is the most recent Zelda action of mine caught on tape. its old but still. here you go. theres more on the youtube page of her as well this is just an actual match and not friendlies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlLCQzmPYQE

 

[Arcalyth]

Does it feel better than brawl? I would think without the auto 6 frame input of lag there would be a noticeable difference.

Sorry I wasn't clear. The same input lag is present in Project M.

wifi salt is real though. you literally can't take wifi seriously at all for the reasons you mentioned above

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Sorry I wasn't clear. The same input lag is present in Project M.

wifi salt is real though. you literally can't take wifi seriously at all for the reasons you mentioned above

Oh wow yeah I totally misinterpreted that. Since PM is a mod on Brawl that makes sense it would have that same input lag. Well darn, that's unfortunate.

 

[GKInfinity]

Yeah. It just sucks to have lag after being so used to normal play, especially when it screws up your combos. Also when you know how to deal with something but you just can't because of the lag. Nice to meet you btw.

Nice to meet you too!

I'm surprised I don't recognize any players in here from melee or brawl. Glad to see people reppin' zelda though!

 

[BJN39]

^ I'm not suprised by that, I talk to the other Zeldas and they wouldn't wanna play her either because she's too different or more often because they don't want to mess up their brawl or Melee zeldas.

Also @ WhiteLightnin, wow, I think you know all the things. :o At least, all the things I could think of.

Also 2, after the frame lag fix from brawl (1-2 frame input lag that existed in ALL parts of the game.) it should have made Wifi a little better if not actually on par with normal play. I can't say for sure though, I'd ask Zhime, he'd probably know considering his extensive play of online.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

^ I'm not suprised by that, I talk to the other Zeldas and they wouldn't wanna play her either because she's too different or more often because they don't want to mess up their brawl or Melee zeldas.

Also @ WhiteLightnin, wow, I think you know all the things. :o At least, all the things I could think of.

Also 2, after the frame lag fix from brawl (1-2 frame input lag that existed in ALL parts of the game.) it should have made Wifi a little better if not actually on par with normal play. I can't say for sure though, I'd ask Zhime, he'd probably know considering his extensive play of online.

Oh that's right! I completely forgot about that 1-2 frame input lag for all of the game. It's not the same as 6 frames but every little bit counts.

 

[jtm94]

Is there any kind of consensus on Zelda's bad matchups right now?
I remember seeing Sonic was one, and my buddy plays Sonic, but I beat him all the time.
He tells me to see how it feels and he has never touched Zelda, and I can't get in. I can barely touch him with Zonic and even when I bait out moves I can't pull off anything from it besides a hit that doesn't combo into anything...

I really think I'm bad at playing against Zelda. If I had to face her as much as they did I would really consider giving up. So I'm putting her on another hiatus to learn other characters to practice my fundamentals.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Is there any kind of consensus on Zelda's bad matchups right now?
I remember seeing Sonic was one, and my buddy plays Sonic, but I beat him all the time.
He tells me to see how it feels and he has never touched Zelda, and I can't get in. I can barely touch him with Zonic and even when I bait out moves I can't pull off anything from it besides a hit that doesn't combo into anything...

I really think I'm bad at playing against Zelda. If I had to face her as much as they did I would really consider giving up. So I'm putting her on another hiatus to learn other characters to practice my fundamentals.

Ivysaur gives her a hard time, ZSS really does damage, and Mario has a close MU.

 

[PrincessAzula]

Is there any kind of consensus on Zelda's bad matchups right now?
I remember seeing Sonic was one, and my buddy plays Sonic, but I beat him all the time.
He tells me to see how it feels and he has never touched Zelda, and I can't get in. I can barely touch him with Zonic and even when I bait out moves I can't pull off anything from it besides a hit that doesn't combo into anything...

I really think I'm bad at playing against Zelda. If I had to face her as much as they did I would really consider giving up. So I'm putting her on another hiatus to learn other characters to practice my fundamentals.

Peach is a pretty bad matchup for Zelda.

 

[the_irish_dude]

Small characters like Ness and Squirtle. Especially squirtle. Hard to stop his momentum. Regular Dfire doesn't work. Need charged ones. neutral B doesn't really stop him. To small to be hit with smashes while he is in shell. Same goes for grabs.

Zelda has a good off stage/edge game IMO. learn how to manuver off the stage and the edge if you feel you are out matched.

 

[BJN39]

Haha, everyone is saying different characters, I always got the impression Ness was a slightly favorable MU myself.

My thoughts on at least some negative MUs would likely be Fox, Falco, Pit, and maybe Sonic. I just haven't seen any 3.0 battles between them. It could actually be less annoying than last demo because of the nerfed homing attack range, but, you don't know till you've played it.

I'm considering starting a MU thing where I ask any of you Zeldas experienced in a MU what you think an MU's number is, and then ask that respective opposite character board as well and compile MUs for zelda off of that. So don't be suprised if I suddenly ask everyone what they think of a MU, or start a thread or something.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Haha, everyone is saying different characters, I always got the impression Ness was a slightly favorable MU myself.

My thoughts on at least some negative MUs would likely be Fox, Falco, Pit, and maybe Sonic. I just haven't seen any 3.0 battles between them. It could actually be less annoying than last demo because of the nerfed homing attack range, but, you don't know till you've played it.

I'm considering starting a MU thing where I ask any of you Zeldas experienced in a MU what you think an MU's number is, and then ask that respective opposite character board as well and compile MUs for zelda off of that. So don't be suprised if I suddenly ask everyone what they think of a MU, or start a thread or something.

That's a great idea. It will be interesting to see if the numbers come up similar or are completely different. This will most likely be a more effective way of getting closer to the actual numbers. It may also bring up more options that have gone largely unnoticed.

 

[jtm94]

Every other char board has at least some MU info.

I don't know how to feel about the Sonic MU. Personally, you cannot whiff ANY attack, because Sonic has such a fast running speed he can get in and grab. HE can spindash under base height dins and his movement is tricky to predict. So you can't force his approach with dins because if you use it and he is anywhere on the level he will get to you before the move ends. I think it would be really awesome if you could cancel dins fire with a waveland earlier than it ends, but make the move so you can't use dins fire after for the same time it would currently take, that way you can use din's as a potentially useful movement option and wavedash cancel it into other different moves.

I do hate Squirtle for similar reasons, super armor can eat dins and he is hard to land a kick on..

I am also not partial to any of the swordsman because swords can eat dins, and yes it causes them to have increased attack lag, or clank, but Zelda isn't always close enough to even begin to capitalize on.

Peach is TERRIBLE sometimes. I don't know what it is... Maybe just her having so many kill options on floaty characters and the type of way she plays that makes it difficult.

I've been having trouble playing a character that sits and waits, but is fast enough to punish any of Zelda's options in the neutral game. I feel as though I'm forced to allow them to attack me and them DI out of their combo while I'm close and then land my attacks. One of my solutions that seems to work, but gets predictable is I'll just throw out a jab and it ends so fast I can jab anyone who tries to approach with a nonranged attack. You can jab then do most any attack like jab dtilt, ftilt, SOMETIMES fair if you're lucky.

I really do like the character, but I feel she has too many weaknesses for SO MANY people to be complaining about her like she's broken. And then my friend has me do the matchup and I hate Sonic so much I'm terrible with him and he beats me with Zelda and gloats about her being broken. That was unnecessary info, just wanted to rant.

 

[the_irish_dude]

def not broken just for the simple fact that she is so slow. slow/floaty does not = broken. sure she is strong. so is ganon, DDD, IKE, ect. she she has Neutral B. ok so does fox and falco. i would even say theirs is better. Dins is good but laggy as hell.
she is def not broken with this many flaws and those many mismatches. she can be a great character if played well but then again...so can all of them. thats what makes this game great.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

def not broken just for the simple fact that she is so slow. slow/floaty does not = broken. sure she is strong. so is ganon, DDD, IKE, ect. she she has Neutral B. ok so does fox and falco. i would even say theirs is better. Dins is good but laggy as hell.
she is def not broken with this many flaws and those many mismatches. she can be a great character if played well but then again...so can all of them. thats what makes this game great.

Agreed I think Zelda is far from broken. Broken implies that a character has techniques that are virtually impossible to deal with or defeat and Zelda is nowhere near such a dangerous point that she should be nerfed. Also other characters have their own ridiculousness and people don't seem to complain as much. Why not Zelda? It's time Zelda has a turn!

 

[Arcalyth]

Is there any kind of consensus on Zelda's bad matchups right now?

I really think I'm bad at playing against Zelda. If I had to face her as much as they did I would really consider giving up. So I'm putting her on another hiatus to learn other characters to practice my fundamentals.

Learn Sheik
I think that this entire game can be explained in terms of Sheik, Marth, Fox, and Falco. So having a good working knowledge of either Sheik/Marth and either Fox/Falco will round you out as a player.

As far as bad matchups I really have a hard time with short characters, especially Squirtle. Low kicks (late lightning kick, dsmash, dtilt), angled ftilt, and turn grab seem to be Zelda's most reliable options at keeping Squirtle away from her. I prefer the matchup as Sheik.

Haha, everyone is saying different characters, I always got the impression Ness was a slightly favorable MU myself.

I also have no concerns with Ness. I think the matchup is pretty even. It could even be in Zelda's favor, as she can use PK Fire against Ness and she combos him hard. She can also Love Jump out of a lot of his combos, you really only have to watch out for uair and nair. I'm not really concerned with most players' anti-Din's game yet because it's pretty much non-existent (interesting note from the Diddy boards, that his evolving meta will be dependent on opponent anti-banana tactics), but it is worthy to note that he can float through Din's Fire with his magnet to heal.

My thoughts on at least some negative MUs would likely be Fox, Falco, Pit, and maybe Sonic. I just haven't seen any 3.0 battles between them. It could actually be less annoying than last demo because of the nerfed homing attack range, but, you don't know till you've played it.

Fox is an easier matchup than Falco, and goes fairly even, perhaps slightly in Fox's favor because he gets more opportunities than Zelda to mess up.
Winning the Fox matchup means maximizing punish - taking away Fox's ability to make repeated mistakes "safely." Luckily, Zelda can pretty much 0-death Fox every time she gets a grab if she's savvy. She can also get a lot of mileage out of any of her reversals.

Beating Falco means developing an anti-laser strategy. Mixing up Nayru's momentum and timing helps. You can hold B while landing to not Nayru's land cancel which gives you more active reflection frames. Mastering powershield is universally effective against Falco. Otherwise the matchup can be played just like Fox. Fast fallers don't like usmash.

There aren't any Pits anywhere in my area so I have no comment there. Sonic is easier now that HA is less broken and he can't waveland out of spin. If you can bait Sonic to attack from afar then you can give yourself enough time to place a mine without him punishing you. Using your shield to bait him only to get kicked OOS works regardless of how fast he is You can combo him pretty hard and you get free kicks out of throws against him. Also Sheik can chaingrab him starting from 0% if you're perfect and he doesn't DI... so there's that. You have two combo whores at your disposal.

I am also not partial to any of the swordsman because swords can eat dins, and yes it causes them to have increased attack lag, or clank, but Zelda isn't always close enough to even begin to capitalize on.

FW/DF combined with ftilt makes swordsmen easier (assuming fire emblem swordsmen, Link is his own animal) but I generally prefer Sheik with them as well. It's not impossible to play vs them as Zelda but I think it makes life harder than it needs to be.

No comment on the Peach MU because I don't know it, a thing to note though is that you can instant AGT rethrow her turnips if she throws them at you.

 

[the_irish_dude]

I find the squirtle matxhup difficult from my perspective is due to wanting to rely on NLove too much. Squritles shell dominates it and i usually too fast to be effected by it. I've found your dash attack will usually over power it If you space it right. Also we will be streaming around 2pm central time. I'm running on no sleep but check us out if you get a chance. I'll be playing Zelda a lot.

http://www.twitch.tv/flashingfire

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I find the squirtle matxhup difficult from my perspective is due to wanting to rely on NLove too much. Squritles shell dominates it and i usually too fast to be effected by it. I've found your dash attack will usually over power it If you space it right. Also we will be streaming around 2pm central time. I'm running on no sleep but check us out if you get a chance. I'll be playing Zelda a lot.

http://www.twitch.tv/flashingfire

Nice Irish. I've read a lot of posts about the squirtle matchup, and I noticed that no one mentioned the dash attack option until now. It's a great option as it covers whether the squirtle decides to approach grounded or jump in the air. Plus it pops him right up leaving him in a perfect spot for a followup. Also IMO, it is an easier option to land as most squirtles are used to the opponent doing a defensive option in place rather than moving towards the approaching shell slide completely throwing off the squirtle's timing.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Zelda has actually BEEN nerfed from 2.5b to 2.6. Fair and bair have a tiny bit more ending lag and dins take more time to send out, but are faster and smaller. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure I'm not.

Agreed I think Zelda is far from broken. Broken implies that a character has techniques that are virtually impossible to deal with or defeat and Zelda is nowhere near such a dangerous point that she should be nerfed. Also other characters have their own ridiculousness and people don't seem to complain as much. Why not Zelda? It's time Zelda has a turn!

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Haha, everyone is saying different characters, I always got the impression Ness was a slightly favorable MU myself.

My thoughts on at least some negative MUs would likely be Fox, Falco, Pit, and maybe Sonic. I just haven't seen any 3.0 battles between them. It could actually be less annoying than last demo because of the nerfed homing attack range, but, you don't know till you've played it.

I'm considering starting a MU thing where I ask any of you Zeldas experienced in a MU what you think an MU's number is, and then ask that respective opposite character board as well and compile MUs for zelda off of that. So don't be suprised if I suddenly ask everyone what they think of a MU, or start a thread or something.

Ivysaur gives Zelda some trouble, as does ZSS.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Oh that's right! I completely forgot about that 1-2 frame input lag for all of the game. It's not the same as 6 frames but every little bit counts.

I could ask him since I'm in conversation with him.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Ivysaur gives Zelda some trouble, as does ZSS.

I've heard there is a type effectiveness element in Brawl. Is it still in PM and if so, does anybody know if that applies with Zelda's Din's against Ivysaur? Also how does it apply (damage, knockback, etc.)?

 

[Deleted member]

Type effectiveness was removed in PM.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Type effectiveness was removed in PM.

Thank you!

 

[DarkStarStorm]

No it doesn't.

I've heard there is a type effectiveness element in Brawl. Is it still in PM and if so, does anybody know if that applies with Zelda's Din's against Ivysaur? Also how does it apply (damage, knockback, etc.)?