Oh gosh, lol. It never occured to me to use BAir when screwing around in turbo. O 3 O
Turbo Zelda for 2 gud tire.
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Zelda Social Thread
- Thread starter Muhti
- Start date
Oh gosh, lol. It never occured to me to use BAir when screwing around in turbo. O 3 O
Turbo Zelda for 2 gud tire.
Zerudahime
Smash Apprentice
Transform detonation is something I specifically designed to be in the build.
I had no part in the rest of the alterations except partially the ftilt.
The reasons:
-- Shielda now exists.
-- Zelda and Sheik are NOT separate characters. They never were separate by design. They were separate because there were no situations in which zelda was better to use than sheik in melee, therefore that has been addressed.
-- Sheilda/Zheik players should receive a proper reward for using them BOTH intelligently.
-- The detonation is more aesthetically pleasing and requires an immense amount of precision and timing.
This tactic isnt used to FORCE people to play Zelda/Sheik, it's simply there for those that do play them co-op because they have that unique ability. I believe that utility needed to be emphasized to illustrate the diversity of the characters. Also, If you play Zelda in tournament and you use this down-B detonation, note that you wont be considered a Zelda placing in the bracket...you will be Sheilda. So, the pride thing us zelda mains have...yes, that is very real.
The transform detonation is extremely useful, and i have a low quality clip against a cpu during development stages of how it should be done if youd like to take a gander. It functions equally as well in real time if you do it right. We all know how situational zelda is, so, again more situations = some new options.
dont mind the quality...it was during a stream and my net was lagging.
This was originally a clip during development stages.
have fun
Transform comboing from ledge.
I had no part in the rest of the alterations except partially the ftilt.
The reasons:
-- Shielda now exists.
-- Zelda and Sheik are NOT separate characters. They never were separate by design. They were separate because there were no situations in which zelda was better to use than sheik in melee, therefore that has been addressed.
-- Sheilda/Zheik players should receive a proper reward for using them BOTH intelligently.
-- The detonation is more aesthetically pleasing and requires an immense amount of precision and timing.
This tactic isnt used to FORCE people to play Zelda/Sheik, it's simply there for those that do play them co-op because they have that unique ability. I believe that utility needed to be emphasized to illustrate the diversity of the characters. Also, If you play Zelda in tournament and you use this down-B detonation, note that you wont be considered a Zelda placing in the bracket...you will be Sheilda. So, the pride thing us zelda mains have...yes, that is very real.
The transform detonation is extremely useful, and i have a low quality clip against a cpu during development stages of how it should be done if youd like to take a gander. It functions equally as well in real time if you do it right. We all know how situational zelda is, so, again more situations = some new options.
dont mind the quality...it was during a stream and my net was lagging.
This was originally a clip during development stages.
have fun
Transform comboing from ledge.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Video is private! Let us see!! .-.
Zerudahime
Smash Apprentice
sry. fixd ittttt
jtm94
Smash Lord
Ooooh, that is REALLY nice looking. Computer or not.
Zerudahime
Smash Apprentice
dins fire will detonate on the last frame of downb where zelda is tangible, so there is no secondary input required.
just good timing of your downb...approx 45 frames before you want the fireball to explode, that's why it's hard to connect with. =p
just good timing of your downb...approx 45 frames before you want the fireball to explode, that's why it's hard to connect with. =p
jtm94
Smash Lord
I think I can use it a bit in my MU against Link because I will place them all around him on the ledge and he'll just ledge stall a bit, but I can punish by detonating dins prematurely.
Does anyone else have anything to offer for the MU? My buddies Link keeps getting better, and I can keep up, but it's more on an instinctual basis with me having consistent punish game. I just can't kill him sometimes, Link can recover from so far away and I'm landing strong kicks, but if you DI them on moderate levels they aren't deadly until like 130% I swear. I go to ledgehog and he can hit me with his special jump or use clawshot. I've been able to land fair on his upB if he takes it right to the ledge, but it's difficult to land the kick in the level.
Does anyone else have anything to offer for the MU? My buddies Link keeps getting better, and I can keep up, but it's more on an instinctual basis with me having consistent punish game. I just can't kill him sometimes, Link can recover from so far away and I'm landing strong kicks, but if you DI them on moderate levels they aren't deadly until like 130% I swear. I go to ledgehog and he can hit me with his special jump or use clawshot. I've been able to land fair on his upB if he takes it right to the ledge, but it's difficult to land the kick in the level.
Transform detonation Din's is something I wholly agree with and like.Regardless of how hard it is to use, it IS way more visually appealing.
It also seems great for a one last try at the opponent if you KNOW you can't make the ledge, just send one near em' and transform detonate it as you die.
Unfortunately, I probably wouldn't use it if I entered a tourney, because that Zelda pride thing, yeah, it's very real for me...
and my sheik sucks. > . >
EDIT; Oops, I had a little color error when typing this. XD
It also seems great for a one last try at the opponent if you KNOW you can't make the ledge, just send one near em' and transform detonate it as you die.
Unfortunately, I probably wouldn't use it if I entered a tourney, because that Zelda pride thing, yeah, it's very real for me...
and my sheik sucks. > . >
EDIT; Oops, I had a little color error when typing this. XD
otheusrex
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2013
- Messages
- 342
that's pretty cool, but I thought in turbo mode you couldn't cancel a move into the same move?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh-u_zRj4hg
I think you can. At least, for some moves.
In this video though, they may be jump cancelling it. > _ >
I think you can. At least, for some moves.
In this video though, they may be jump cancelling it. > _ >
Try killing him off the top with utilt or uair if he's surviving your kicks. Uair is godlike
A well placed Din's mine will beat the clawshot, and you can probably stall with Farore's to refresh your invincibility long enough to beat his Up-B. If you drop under him, jump, then bair him, he only has clawshot and bomb jump left as potential recovery options if you don't outright kill him.
jtm94
Smash Lord
I find it really hard to time utilt right or somehow combo into it. I know it's super potent, but it's slow. And it's hard to to beat out Link's dair with uair.
If I put a Din's on the edge he can't clawshot to the edge? I will try to beat out his recovery I guess. Are you talking about being on the ledge, then as he grabs the ledge fall off the ledge, jump and bair? He's really good at bomb jumping and if I don't KO him he can recovery from pretty much anywhere.
If I put a Din's on the edge he can't clawshot to the edge? I will try to beat out his recovery I guess. Are you talking about being on the ledge, then as he grabs the ledge fall off the ledge, jump and bair? He's really good at bomb jumping and if I don't KO him he can recovery from pretty much anywhere.
utilt has intangibility on her raised arm which gives the move disjoint and the late hit can be followed with an aerial. If Link is like directly on top of you I think his sword will hit past her arm, but if he's slightly to the side you'll be safe.
For recovery I'm imagining a scenario where he's trying to sweetspot the ledge with Up-B from mid-low to low heights, all you have to do is get below his sword and hit him away and you will gimp him. For Din's you can put a mine directly on the ledge but it will probably get eaten by invincibility. Like with all tether recoveries you can put a mine at the length of the tether below the ledge and the opponent won't be invincible so they'll get gimped by the fireball.
For recovery I'm imagining a scenario where he's trying to sweetspot the ledge with Up-B from mid-low to low heights, all you have to do is get below his sword and hit him away and you will gimp him. For Din's you can put a mine directly on the ledge but it will probably get eaten by invincibility. Like with all tether recoveries you can put a mine at the length of the tether below the ledge and the opponent won't be invincible so they'll get gimped by the fireball.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Yeah, I know about the tether scenario. I use that against Ivy.
I just can't imagine the situation where I can get below Link's UpB?
I got some REALLY good experience playing high level Foxes/Falcos today and it was... interesting. As long as I can get a grab or land UpSmash I can take an entire stock... if only it was that easy.... Fox is manageable in how his a pretty close/combo oriented character and I can get out of them "sometimes," but this guy waveshine/dair/multishined me accross the level and back with me trying to get out of it and ended with upsmash everytime KOing me. You have to zone him super hard and stop approaches, without taking significant laser damage... easier said than done... Falco on the other hand, has an amazing neutral game just because HIS LASERS ARE SUCH BS. All 3 times I played this guy in tournament he took me to Final Destination and camped hard just putting out more lasers than I have EVER seen. I wasn't thinking about the flatness and went Dreamland, but it didn't help me as I died to dair almost every time. I played him in another match and took him to Fountain of Dreams and this guy was so thrown off that I didn't understand. I almost 3 stocked the same Falco. I think I like him on small stages so he can't wall of laser me out so easily.
All in all, good day of experience.
I just can't imagine the situation where I can get below Link's UpB?
I got some REALLY good experience playing high level Foxes/Falcos today and it was... interesting. As long as I can get a grab or land UpSmash I can take an entire stock... if only it was that easy.... Fox is manageable in how his a pretty close/combo oriented character and I can get out of them "sometimes," but this guy waveshine/dair/multishined me accross the level and back with me trying to get out of it and ended with upsmash everytime KOing me. You have to zone him super hard and stop approaches, without taking significant laser damage... easier said than done... Falco on the other hand, has an amazing neutral game just because HIS LASERS ARE SUCH BS. All 3 times I played this guy in tournament he took me to Final Destination and camped hard just putting out more lasers than I have EVER seen. I wasn't thinking about the flatness and went Dreamland, but it didn't help me as I died to dair almost every time. I played him in another match and took him to Fountain of Dreams and this guy was so thrown off that I didn't understand. I almost 3 stocked the same Falco. I think I like him on small stages so he can't wall of laser me out so easily.
All in all, good day of experience.
drsusredfish
Smash Ace
It seems i can only do that multi kick thing online. Glitch?
Heero Yuy
#sweg
I just got back into playing P:M yesterday and am using my Sheik a lot more these days.
What is everyone's opinion on 3.0 Zelda?
What is everyone's opinion on 3.0 Zelda?
PrincessAzula
Smash Apprentice
She hasn't changed much. A little more lag after a Love Cancel but it's not that noticeable once you get used to it. The change to ftilt is nice as it's usually easier to continue a combo or finish it with a lightning kick.
otheusrex
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2013
- Messages
- 342
She's pretty much the same, just don't try to shield pressure with land canceled nayru, but that wasn't that safe before either. I was a little salty about them nerfing her critical kicks but that was more on principle because it doesn't affect how she's played at all. Ftilt is a good fix cause before it lost it's utility at mid percents except as a gtfo move.
I feel that Zelda is a bad character with excellent moves, which makes her viable overall but kind of mid to low tier. I'm kinda glad that they nerfed the LC Nayru a little, cause it still functions but now it's less cheap. That move kinda does do everything for her. I think for the long run she could use some minor buffs, not to individual moves per se, but to the general abilities that individual moves like nayru's love and farore's wind try to counterbalance, such as her ground mobility, specifically, her dash dance. I'm not suggesting making her as fast as sonic or anything, but maybe improve her dash dance from awful to average. This would give her another approach option to mix up between LC nayru and FW air dodge for when your opponent has studied the MU as hard as you have and understands that both those moves have very reliable ways to deal with themt. It also fits with her theme of being a defensive character since it's more of an indirect approach. They could do this by lengthening and speeding up her initial dash slightly. This would have the added benefit of making up for the small hit she took to her already poor approach when they nerfed LC nayru, and would be less cheap than LC nayru was before.
Secondly, make her grab hitbox bigger. It's big for the average character, sure. but for it's weaknesses, it actually isn't that big. It's quite slow for a grab, especially her shield grab, which really hurts her OoS options, and it's slowness combined with her lack of mobility make attempting a grab particularly risky, especially against fast, mobile characters. And once you have them grabbed, her throw options aren't all that rewarding since the opponent can escape a followup with good DI AND her throws are super easy to DI even on reaction. The normal trade off with this type of thing seems to be A) throws are super rewarding, so let's B) make it harder to grab, but Zelda has both limitations. Other characters have greater rewards for grabbing with less limitations, look at Marth. His grabbox is ludicrous and the reward for grabbing someone is tremendous for fast fallers and floaties alike, but people for the most part accept this because of history and say that 'yes it's ridiculous, but he needs those grabs'. But Zelda also needs her grabs to get things started. It makes more sense for her to have a grabbox as big as Marth's than it does for Marth to have them, lol. I mean, she's a psychic character with magic sparkles illustrating her grabbox.
Anyways, I picked these two buffs because they make sense for Zelda to have, they improve Zelda but don't break her because she already has pretty strong weaknesses in opposition to these buffs (big grab=slow start up+easy to escape throw options; viable dash dance=slow start up moves with lengthy cool down), and they increase Zelda's ability to get things started, which I foresee as being a huge weakness when the metagame gets more developed and you won't be playing people who don't know the Zelda MU. When that inevitably happens, you'll need some better tools to make things happen yourself, rather than rely on your opponent to make a mistake. Look at Zhime vs M2K. Zhime knew the MU much, MUCH better than m2k, but he still lost because m2k takes full advantage of characters who have abilities that are just outright superior. If m2k can beat an excellent, knowledgeable Zelda who's playing their all, without even knowing the mu, then what does that forecast when top players get familiar with the zelda metagame?
So thoughts, guys? Am I wrong? Do you think Zelda is perfect how she is? What would change? Nerf or make better? And where in the tier list do you think she'll be 2 or 3 years down the road?
I feel that Zelda is a bad character with excellent moves, which makes her viable overall but kind of mid to low tier. I'm kinda glad that they nerfed the LC Nayru a little, cause it still functions but now it's less cheap. That move kinda does do everything for her. I think for the long run she could use some minor buffs, not to individual moves per se, but to the general abilities that individual moves like nayru's love and farore's wind try to counterbalance, such as her ground mobility, specifically, her dash dance. I'm not suggesting making her as fast as sonic or anything, but maybe improve her dash dance from awful to average. This would give her another approach option to mix up between LC nayru and FW air dodge for when your opponent has studied the MU as hard as you have and understands that both those moves have very reliable ways to deal with themt. It also fits with her theme of being a defensive character since it's more of an indirect approach. They could do this by lengthening and speeding up her initial dash slightly. This would have the added benefit of making up for the small hit she took to her already poor approach when they nerfed LC nayru, and would be less cheap than LC nayru was before.
Secondly, make her grab hitbox bigger. It's big for the average character, sure. but for it's weaknesses, it actually isn't that big. It's quite slow for a grab, especially her shield grab, which really hurts her OoS options, and it's slowness combined with her lack of mobility make attempting a grab particularly risky, especially against fast, mobile characters. And once you have them grabbed, her throw options aren't all that rewarding since the opponent can escape a followup with good DI AND her throws are super easy to DI even on reaction. The normal trade off with this type of thing seems to be A) throws are super rewarding, so let's B) make it harder to grab, but Zelda has both limitations. Other characters have greater rewards for grabbing with less limitations, look at Marth. His grabbox is ludicrous and the reward for grabbing someone is tremendous for fast fallers and floaties alike, but people for the most part accept this because of history and say that 'yes it's ridiculous, but he needs those grabs'. But Zelda also needs her grabs to get things started. It makes more sense for her to have a grabbox as big as Marth's than it does for Marth to have them, lol. I mean, she's a psychic character with magic sparkles illustrating her grabbox.
Anyways, I picked these two buffs because they make sense for Zelda to have, they improve Zelda but don't break her because she already has pretty strong weaknesses in opposition to these buffs (big grab=slow start up+easy to escape throw options; viable dash dance=slow start up moves with lengthy cool down), and they increase Zelda's ability to get things started, which I foresee as being a huge weakness when the metagame gets more developed and you won't be playing people who don't know the Zelda MU. When that inevitably happens, you'll need some better tools to make things happen yourself, rather than rely on your opponent to make a mistake. Look at Zhime vs M2K. Zhime knew the MU much, MUCH better than m2k, but he still lost because m2k takes full advantage of characters who have abilities that are just outright superior. If m2k can beat an excellent, knowledgeable Zelda who's playing their all, without even knowing the mu, then what does that forecast when top players get familiar with the zelda metagame?
So thoughts, guys? Am I wrong? Do you think Zelda is perfect how she is? What would change? Nerf or make better? And where in the tier list do you think she'll be 2 or 3 years down the road?
D
Deleted member
Guest
I have Zelda lower-mid tier right now on my personal tier list, but unfortunately, I don't think current Zelda has much room to move up without some buffs. As more people get used to playing against her, she's going to drop.
Zelda's mantra has always been the same: "Don't screw up or you'll eat a Lightning Kick to the face."
That's awesome, but that alone doesn't make for the best Smash character. Zelda relies too much on the opponent making mistakes. She's obviously much better at forcing and capitalizing on mistakes than she ever was before, but that still comes with the price of the same glaring weaknesses that she's always had. Smart opponents can play around her. Fast characters and characters who outrange her don't give her the opportunity to set up traps or to bait and punish like she wants, and she's too slow to attempt to play any differently. She might seem passable now, but I honestly think if we want Zelda to be a real contender in the long run, some things have to change. Her buffs so far have been great, but they're just not enough. Why should be satisfied with the way she is now when there are simply much more effective characters out there? We Zelda mains have a lot of pride in our character, but we also need to face the reality that she has a lot of limitations, perhaps too many limitations.
I really think she needs some better mobility, even if it comes at the cost of some of her power (not all of it, though!) I would definitely like to see Zelda have noticeably faster air speed and slightly faster running speed. Maybe a small increase in weight too since she gets killed sooo easily. I would like to see some experimentation with a faster Din's Fire (although other aspects of the move will probably be have to be altered, but I think speed is very important and worth some nerfs in other areas.) I think we should look into speeding up her grab too. And, dare I ask - what would happen if she was ever-so-slightly less floaty?
Zelda's mantra has always been the same: "Don't screw up or you'll eat a Lightning Kick to the face."
That's awesome, but that alone doesn't make for the best Smash character. Zelda relies too much on the opponent making mistakes. She's obviously much better at forcing and capitalizing on mistakes than she ever was before, but that still comes with the price of the same glaring weaknesses that she's always had. Smart opponents can play around her. Fast characters and characters who outrange her don't give her the opportunity to set up traps or to bait and punish like she wants, and she's too slow to attempt to play any differently. She might seem passable now, but I honestly think if we want Zelda to be a real contender in the long run, some things have to change. Her buffs so far have been great, but they're just not enough. Why should be satisfied with the way she is now when there are simply much more effective characters out there? We Zelda mains have a lot of pride in our character, but we also need to face the reality that she has a lot of limitations, perhaps too many limitations.
I really think she needs some better mobility, even if it comes at the cost of some of her power (not all of it, though!) I would definitely like to see Zelda have noticeably faster air speed and slightly faster running speed. Maybe a small increase in weight too since she gets killed sooo easily. I would like to see some experimentation with a faster Din's Fire (although other aspects of the move will probably be have to be altered, but I think speed is very important and worth some nerfs in other areas.) I think we should look into speeding up her grab too. And, dare I ask - what would happen if she was ever-so-slightly less floaty?
PrincessAzula
Smash Apprentice
Unfortunately, I don't see them giving Zelda any major buffs in the near future. There is so much salt surrounding Zelda as a character right now that I feel like the PMBR giving her any buffs would just cause major backlash.
I agree with the added mobility though, especially in the air.
jtm94
Smash Lord
I am against buffing any characters right now. As it is, the meta needs to develop for some time before we can TRULY see if Zelda only wins based on lack of MU experience, or if she may be fine as is. Too many characters get overbuffed(Ike, Sonic, Ivy) and a lot of characters are still too good(some melee characters). We need things to calm down a bit before meta calls are made.
That being said, Zelda is far too slow. I've said this ever since I started playing her months ago. Her strength is punishing mistakes, but when you play a higher level opponent... The matchup becomes excessively harder. At this point the game becomes reliant on zoning, Din's traps, and following up on the din's traps to hopefully get some % on or the KO. There have been SO MANY TIMES where I am playing my friends and my spacing is on point to be just out of their range, and they WHIFF any attack, and I literately have no option to punish because my character is too damn slow. It works against close range characters alright, but characters who have range Nayru's is the only way to close the gap and I feel like I'm relying on the move too much. jab has no reach, ftilt has meh reach, kicks have meh reach, Nayru's reaches the farthest. There are times where I find it necessary to put myself in harms way to take a stock just because I can't punish well enough, whether it be teleporting in and shielding blindly hoping to get a shield grab(her grab is indeed sorta slow, but not bad), or throwing out Up Smash or Nayru's and hope to get the tech chase.
I'm not even asking for buffs, the moves are all fine and I think some may be near too good, her grab range is also deceptively far and reaches both low and high + grabs from behind her sometimes which I love. I don't use her pivot grab enough which is amazing. The only thing I really consistently dislike is that I will see a character whiff an attack or grab and I just can't get there to punish sometimes because her movement is terrible. Teleport is good because it's unpredictable and she can act out of it. You can also use it for mind games and make the opponent attack preemptively, but as people learn the matchup and they just don't approach me I don't know what to do. People always say just use dins, but I have tried it and against faster characters they will take advantage of how slow placing dins is, and other characters can literately just eat them up.
Her grab followups are pretty decent imo. Forward throw is garbage, but I use it if I set a dins trap at the ledge and they roll through it, I grab and pummel then throw into dins as they explode. upthrow chaingrabs space animals hard + sets up for uthrow into kick. I use to think BThrow was good, but as everyone has learned to DI it I rarely get the kill off of it ever... I find myself backthrowing into dins traps on ledge if I can't reach the ledge in time to hog it. And then I try to kick them if they hit the trap or grab into another backthrow into more dins + ledgehog if possible. Downthrow on average falling characters sometimes sets up for immediate bair which feels SO GOOD. But if they DI right and roll away there is no way to get to them to punish in any way.
That being said, Zelda is far too slow. I've said this ever since I started playing her months ago. Her strength is punishing mistakes, but when you play a higher level opponent... The matchup becomes excessively harder. At this point the game becomes reliant on zoning, Din's traps, and following up on the din's traps to hopefully get some % on or the KO. There have been SO MANY TIMES where I am playing my friends and my spacing is on point to be just out of their range, and they WHIFF any attack, and I literately have no option to punish because my character is too damn slow. It works against close range characters alright, but characters who have range Nayru's is the only way to close the gap and I feel like I'm relying on the move too much. jab has no reach, ftilt has meh reach, kicks have meh reach, Nayru's reaches the farthest. There are times where I find it necessary to put myself in harms way to take a stock just because I can't punish well enough, whether it be teleporting in and shielding blindly hoping to get a shield grab(her grab is indeed sorta slow, but not bad), or throwing out Up Smash or Nayru's and hope to get the tech chase.
I'm not even asking for buffs, the moves are all fine and I think some may be near too good, her grab range is also deceptively far and reaches both low and high + grabs from behind her sometimes which I love. I don't use her pivot grab enough which is amazing. The only thing I really consistently dislike is that I will see a character whiff an attack or grab and I just can't get there to punish sometimes because her movement is terrible. Teleport is good because it's unpredictable and she can act out of it. You can also use it for mind games and make the opponent attack preemptively, but as people learn the matchup and they just don't approach me I don't know what to do. People always say just use dins, but I have tried it and against faster characters they will take advantage of how slow placing dins is, and other characters can literately just eat them up.
Her grab followups are pretty decent imo. Forward throw is garbage, but I use it if I set a dins trap at the ledge and they roll through it, I grab and pummel then throw into dins as they explode. upthrow chaingrabs space animals hard + sets up for uthrow into kick. I use to think BThrow was good, but as everyone has learned to DI it I rarely get the kill off of it ever... I find myself backthrowing into dins traps on ledge if I can't reach the ledge in time to hog it. And then I try to kick them if they hit the trap or grab into another backthrow into more dins + ledgehog if possible. Downthrow on average falling characters sometimes sets up for immediate bair which feels SO GOOD. But if they DI right and roll away there is no way to get to them to punish in any way.
drsusredfish
Smash Ace
Just for fun lets unnecessarily categorize the gradation of the way players play zelda and/or sheik .
Zelda - Zeliek - Ziek - Wisdom - Shelda - Shieda - Shiek
Zelda - player who only plays zelda and takes their pride as a zelda player seriously.
Zeliek - player who plays zelda and only uses sheik to get a quick finishing blow after the opponent is at high damage. this player really just uses sheik's fair or throw to fair.
Ziek - Player chooses zelda or sheik depending on the match up. They aren't as good with sheik as they are with Zelda but the match up choice helps mask that problem.
Wisdom - player can play any match up with either zelda or sheik. This player is proficient at transform tricks and combos.
Shelda - Player chooses sheik or zelda depending o the match up. They aren't as good with zelda as they are with shiek but the match up choice helps mask that problem.
Shieda - player plays Shiek and only uses zelda to get a quick finishing blow after the opponent is at high damage. this player likes going for zelda's Utilt, Bthrow, and bair
shiek - player who only plays sheik and takes their pride as a shiek player seriously.
I am a Zeliek player.
Zelda - Zeliek - Ziek - Wisdom - Shelda - Shieda - Shiek
Zelda - player who only plays zelda and takes their pride as a zelda player seriously.
Zeliek - player who plays zelda and only uses sheik to get a quick finishing blow after the opponent is at high damage. this player really just uses sheik's fair or throw to fair.
Ziek - Player chooses zelda or sheik depending on the match up. They aren't as good with sheik as they are with Zelda but the match up choice helps mask that problem.
Wisdom - player can play any match up with either zelda or sheik. This player is proficient at transform tricks and combos.
Shelda - Player chooses sheik or zelda depending o the match up. They aren't as good with zelda as they are with shiek but the match up choice helps mask that problem.
Shieda - player plays Shiek and only uses zelda to get a quick finishing blow after the opponent is at high damage. this player likes going for zelda's Utilt, Bthrow, and bair
shiek - player who only plays sheik and takes their pride as a shiek player seriously.
I am a Zeliek player.
Heero Yuy
#sweg
I'm a Ziek. Zelda is way better at killing than Sheik is so I don't know why you would transform into the latter just to get a good kill, unless you love her Fair.
Sheik is also my 2nd best character so she is more help to me than usual, but my Zelda is still better than her by a large gap.
ALSO, onto the other discussion...I don't ever see PMBR buffing Zelda ever again (and in fact I see them nerfing her hard in the future) ever since Zhime made Mango look ridiculous.
Sheik is also my 2nd best character so she is more help to me than usual, but my Zelda is still better than her by a large gap.
ALSO, onto the other discussion...I don't ever see PMBR buffing Zelda ever again (and in fact I see them nerfing her hard in the future) ever since Zhime made Mango look ridiculous.
I guess I would be a Zelda player.
@HeeroyYuy; While do too kinda believe she won't getting many/any buffs that will fundamentally help her in the long run. But your reason involving Mang0 is not the reason they wouldn't. When Zhime played mang0, you could tell that he was sorta screwing around a little. He even purposely SD'ed to keep the stocks even once. Not to say Zhime couldn't take him on at maximum seriousness.
Also PMBR FIX THE DSMASH ARM GLITCH IN 3.0b! PLZ. >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P70jHIod0Bs
That would be a major buff for Zelda IMO.
@HeeroyYuy; While do too kinda believe she won't getting many/any buffs that will fundamentally help her in the long run. But your reason involving Mang0 is not the reason they wouldn't. When Zhime played mang0, you could tell that he was sorta screwing around a little. He even purposely SD'ed to keep the stocks even once. Not to say Zhime couldn't take him on at maximum seriousness.
Also PMBR FIX THE DSMASH ARM GLITCH IN 3.0b! PLZ. >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P70jHIod0Bs
That would be a major buff for Zelda IMO.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
The wifi codeset can repeat moves during turbo. This is because of where we hooked the code into not working the same way in wifi buffering.
Heero Yuy
#sweg
Also I'll note that Salem has been achieving super high tourney results. If they keep paying attention to Ryoko, Zhime, and Salem rather than us average Zeldas then they're certainly note that Zelda's already a high-tier character and needs no buffs at all.@HeeroyYuy; While do too kinda believe she won't getting many/any buffs that will fundamentally help her in the long run. But your reason involving Mang0 is not the reason they wouldn't. When Zhime played mang0, you could tell that he was sorta screwing around a little. He even purposely SD'ed to keep the stocks even once. Not to say Zhime couldn't take him on at maximum seriousness.
PrincessAzula
Smash Apprentice
I really don't see any major nerfs in the near future for her though. I mean, every character has people that play as them that are just simply amazing. PMBR isn't going to make significant changes to Zelda just because Ryoko and Zhime are so great with Zelda. It'd be like nerfing Ivy just because Reflex is good with him/her. No. They nerfed Ivy because she was pretty ridiculous, not because people were good with him/her.
otheusrex
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2013
- Messages
- 342
Just because a 2 players place high with a character doesn't mean that that character is high-tier. It could be that other players don't know the MU as well, which is why I think zelda is placing higher right now. Characters like Sheik and Fox remain good even when people learn their match ups because their combos require a mix-up and a read to escape, meaning, if sheik hits an opponent and they do 'option A' to escape, Sheik can do 'followup A' to continue the combo string, while if the opponent does 'option B' to escape, sheik can do 'followup B' to continue. Almost all Zelda's options have simple 1 method escapes, so even if the metagame is in a young stage right now, you can still foresee that she'll be at a distinct disadvantage when people learn the MU. I'd like things to be equal or near equal when two people know the MU equally well, not be that someone has muchh greater advantages just because their character is superior.
jtm94
Smash Lord
I hard a loooonngggg discussion with an old time Melee player who also plays PM about Zelda and I really am starting to doubt the direction they took her in. Zelda in Melee also lacked approach options, but basically what he said was that in the neutral game it wasn't advantageous for Zelda to to camp OR approach, so you could do whatever. With all the new things they gave Zelda it is now significantly more advantageous to play a more campish playstyle and it was decided that if you truly take the best route when playing Zelda in PM the game stops being fun for either player.
As I'm getting better at placing dins at ideal times, DDing into grabs/shield grabbing the game just becomes let me toss you into the air with ftilt, kick you... I landed weak kick you aren't dead place dins on ledge hard, as they get back on try to kick again, repeat until strong kick is landed. We felt like she would be better off if the entire kick hitbox was the same and KOd at 90% instead of a tinyy hitbox KOing at 60% or lower and another not KOing until 110-130%. If you DI bthrow up it isn't a kill move for quite some time, making it not that useful as it just resets the neutral game, where she is already bad at approaching, enforcing more camping(you can say to ledgehog which is an option, but because bthrow sends so high they can recover to stage anyways).. upthrow is only good on fastfallers and REALLY low %s on others, dthrow can lead into bair "sometimes" if they DI up for bthrow, but it is super telegraphed. Fthrow is useless always. As she is now, when I play my better friends at the game and just better people in general my playstyle is getting less and less fun to BOTH play and play against, but I'm being rewarded for it...
I think the problem is Zelda lacks mobility entirely. She can't punish from moderately close distances, you can just space moves and throw them out while Zelda has no option besides dins and Nayru's(which is also not fun to play against). If she had somewhat speed whether it be aerial or grounded she could at least rush to get in or dash dance more effectively. She has the new Din's which rewards a campy playstyle and solves her need for approaching slightly. She gets KOd incredibly early also making it so you want to interact as little as possible with the opponent because damage tacks on fast for her.
And I'm not even talking about buffs... I'm talking about balance. They do so many little things to the game and other characters and leave characters like Fox unhindered where he has well above average skills in every category. Lucario lacked approaches they just outright gave him an aura level from the start(which I think is too good). As it is and as I'm getting better with Zelda I'm starting to learn other characters so I can have more fun with the game because I feel she's too limited to go in the direction I want.
This isn't to be taken "dead" serious, but these are all things I have observed and talked about with a number of players, both Melee and PM, Zelda players and otherwise.
As I'm getting better at placing dins at ideal times, DDing into grabs/shield grabbing the game just becomes let me toss you into the air with ftilt, kick you... I landed weak kick you aren't dead place dins on ledge hard, as they get back on try to kick again, repeat until strong kick is landed. We felt like she would be better off if the entire kick hitbox was the same and KOd at 90% instead of a tinyy hitbox KOing at 60% or lower and another not KOing until 110-130%. If you DI bthrow up it isn't a kill move for quite some time, making it not that useful as it just resets the neutral game, where she is already bad at approaching, enforcing more camping(you can say to ledgehog which is an option, but because bthrow sends so high they can recover to stage anyways).. upthrow is only good on fastfallers and REALLY low %s on others, dthrow can lead into bair "sometimes" if they DI up for bthrow, but it is super telegraphed. Fthrow is useless always. As she is now, when I play my better friends at the game and just better people in general my playstyle is getting less and less fun to BOTH play and play against, but I'm being rewarded for it...
I think the problem is Zelda lacks mobility entirely. She can't punish from moderately close distances, you can just space moves and throw them out while Zelda has no option besides dins and Nayru's(which is also not fun to play against). If she had somewhat speed whether it be aerial or grounded she could at least rush to get in or dash dance more effectively. She has the new Din's which rewards a campy playstyle and solves her need for approaching slightly. She gets KOd incredibly early also making it so you want to interact as little as possible with the opponent because damage tacks on fast for her.
And I'm not even talking about buffs... I'm talking about balance. They do so many little things to the game and other characters and leave characters like Fox unhindered where he has well above average skills in every category. Lucario lacked approaches they just outright gave him an aura level from the start(which I think is too good). As it is and as I'm getting better with Zelda I'm starting to learn other characters so I can have more fun with the game because I feel she's too limited to go in the direction I want.
This isn't to be taken "dead" serious, but these are all things I have observed and talked about with a number of players, both Melee and PM, Zelda players and otherwise.
Heero Yuy
#sweg
I hope you acknowledge that if you read my entire post that's what I was hoping the PMBR WOULDN'T do.
I'm trying to put more emphasis on my teleport game. My mindgames on my friends really seem to work and I outplay them in addition with some well-placed Dins. Idk though, I feel like I play a lot different from you guys.
Blondie.
Smash Journeyman
I'm in a pretty similar situation as some of you guys. IMO, Zelda is a bottom 5 character, and only getting worse as time goes on. She can win some match ups, and will take you decently far due to her fraudulence, but in the long run, she is not a viable character.
If you want to do well with her, you need to play major campy and major lame. It won't be fun for you or your opponent. As people get better at fighting her, and learn all her dumb tricks, it gets harder and harder to win matches. I had some pretty good success early on, but I've been realizing lately that Zelda just isn't worth my time. She won't be able to keep up with the rest of the cast as the meta game progresses.
I quit maining Zelda, switching to Samus. Samus isn't exactly the best character ever, but I see potential for her in the future meta game. With Zelda, I just see people learning how to deal with her, and Zelda becoming one of, if not the worst character in the game. I'll still secondary her for matchups I like though (like Peach).
It sucks, because I loved playing as Zelda for a long time, but I just can't bring myself to doing it anymore. She is just too fraudulent. Sorry for my rant. Some of you may not feel this way, but it's just what I've been feeling and why I dropped her as my main.
If you want to do well with her, you need to play major campy and major lame. It won't be fun for you or your opponent. As people get better at fighting her, and learn all her dumb tricks, it gets harder and harder to win matches. I had some pretty good success early on, but I've been realizing lately that Zelda just isn't worth my time. She won't be able to keep up with the rest of the cast as the meta game progresses.
I quit maining Zelda, switching to Samus. Samus isn't exactly the best character ever, but I see potential for her in the future meta game. With Zelda, I just see people learning how to deal with her, and Zelda becoming one of, if not the worst character in the game. I'll still secondary her for matchups I like though (like Peach).
It sucks, because I loved playing as Zelda for a long time, but I just can't bring myself to doing it anymore. She is just too fraudulent. Sorry for my rant. Some of you may not feel this way, but it's just what I've been feeling and why I dropped her as my main.
Honestly, I feel a little sorry for Ryoko. Being known as Zelda's designer is probably tough. I was reading on the bowser boards when I read about cmart getting whined at staight to the face about bowser changes, and it's barely better here.
And then factor in all the hate she gets from every other player group... *sigh* Oh the life of a Zelda main.
What is to be done about it now though? We just reached 3.0, where character change will be at its most stagnant. Golly, even I can tell I'm being pessimistic.
On the actual "getting stuff done" note though, what can be done to really encourage a little more going in? (Offensive play) What can be done to make her more fun to play as/against? Can it be done without alienating P:M Zelda mains? Or is that already happening?
And then factor in all the hate she gets from every other player group... *sigh* Oh the life of a Zelda main.
What is to be done about it now though? We just reached 3.0, where character change will be at its most stagnant. Golly, even I can tell I'm being pessimistic.
On the actual "getting stuff done" note though, what can be done to really encourage a little more going in? (Offensive play) What can be done to make her more fun to play as/against? Can it be done without alienating P:M Zelda mains? Or is that already happening?
jtm94
Smash Lord
I fully respect every amount of effort put into designing the characters. I don't want to come off as complainy or whiny. The fact is that just a handful of people alone can't design a game on a caliber such as this and they've done a hell of a job thus far. Playtesting needs to be done and it just turns out that Zelda is uncharacteristically campy where as other characters can make the decision to camp or not and benefit from both Zelda has a hard time going in period.
I really feel like a lot of it is movement based, and part of it is her true lack of moves that link together. A lot of her stuff just leads into usmash nair and then nair sends away and that's that, or instead of nair you just kick and that's that. Chars like Marth, Roy, Lucas, Mario, Sheik all have multiple tilts that can juggle or set up combos if chained together. Zelda's utilt is a kill move, usmash isn't a kill move, but it sends far enough away where you can only react with uair. Even Nayru's doesn't really combo unless landcancelled or you get a tech read off of it, imo. ftilt is really nice, jab is "ok", you can only start to combo by linking weak uairs or weak kicks into other kicks. At high %s every move is a GTFO move. dtilt feels not that useful, dair is slow, and nair just sends away. Her throws also don't help, dthrow does damage but leads nowhere, fthrow I never use, uthrow for chain grabs or into uair and maybe you can link that with more uairs, bthrow can be DI'd so high into the sky it doesn't kill and resets neutral game. Even if it didn't kill and at least sent fairly low with less power to set up for true edgeguards it could have more uses.
BASICALLY, in short, I'm saying that a lot of her moves just reset the neutral game instead of maintaining interaction.
I really feel like a lot of it is movement based, and part of it is her true lack of moves that link together. A lot of her stuff just leads into usmash nair and then nair sends away and that's that, or instead of nair you just kick and that's that. Chars like Marth, Roy, Lucas, Mario, Sheik all have multiple tilts that can juggle or set up combos if chained together. Zelda's utilt is a kill move, usmash isn't a kill move, but it sends far enough away where you can only react with uair. Even Nayru's doesn't really combo unless landcancelled or you get a tech read off of it, imo. ftilt is really nice, jab is "ok", you can only start to combo by linking weak uairs or weak kicks into other kicks. At high %s every move is a GTFO move. dtilt feels not that useful, dair is slow, and nair just sends away. Her throws also don't help, dthrow does damage but leads nowhere, fthrow I never use, uthrow for chain grabs or into uair and maybe you can link that with more uairs, bthrow can be DI'd so high into the sky it doesn't kill and resets neutral game. Even if it didn't kill and at least sent fairly low with less power to set up for true edgeguards it could have more uses.
BASICALLY, in short, I'm saying that a lot of her moves just reset the neutral game instead of maintaining interaction.
otheusrex
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2013
- Messages
- 342
sorry, I guess I still kinda don't know what you mean
Zelda is pretty much powerless without a fireball on the field. That said, putting a fireball out after hitting with many of her moves is generally a Good Idea(tm). Especially kick>dins, nair>dins, dsmash>dins. All of her moves that you say are useless because they only reset are made far more useful when incorporated with din's fire, which sets up DI traps for her throws (DI low, get gimped; DI high, die to din's explosion in the case of bthrow, other scenarios for other throws).
Din's fire covers most of the holes in Zelda's moveset...
jtm94
Smash Lord
Personally I don't find it effective at all to preemptively place a dins offstage just to hope I get the grab to bthrow into it. I've seen it in combos, I've done it to people, I've done more elaborate things worthy of a combo video, but they aren't consistent and all and are quite gimmicky. I do not feel compelled to try to set up something that elaborate in a match when I can just camp with it and cut off access to other parts of the stage so I maintain control. Intended use and how it actually gets used are quite different. I can try it out, but it doesn't fix her playstyle. It's super flashy and gimmick reliant.
I also don't see how Dins helps her punish at moderately close distances. Dins is still an incredibly slow move. IT solves problems across stage because the farther you take it the more exponentially faster it is than actually taking Zelda there. It just seems entirely roundabout to fix the "holes" that are acknowledged in her playstyle with dins alone. It's like slapping a bandaid on and ignoring it.
I still don't hate Zelda, just how I'm advancing with her. She doesn't feel legitimate and controlling the board so hard with dins really isn't fun for anyone unless I really want to beat someone and could care less if they hate me/Zelda. In friendlies I just discourage people from wanting to play against her ever.
I also don't see how Dins helps her punish at moderately close distances. Dins is still an incredibly slow move. IT solves problems across stage because the farther you take it the more exponentially faster it is than actually taking Zelda there. It just seems entirely roundabout to fix the "holes" that are acknowledged in her playstyle with dins alone. It's like slapping a bandaid on and ignoring it.
I still don't hate Zelda, just how I'm advancing with her. She doesn't feel legitimate and controlling the board so hard with dins really isn't fun for anyone unless I really want to beat someone and could care less if they hate me/Zelda. In friendlies I just discourage people from wanting to play against her ever.
The whole point of Din's fire is to preemptively cut off options. If you end up in a situation where you won't get the throw>explosion, you can simply replace the fireball to a position where it'll work for you. I don't understand how Din's Fire is "gimmicky" when you can reliably combo and kill with them and when they reliably open up both offensive and defensive options for Zelda such as using the fireball as a "safe zone" to approach with or cutting off your opponent's spacing , mobility, and attack options. Additionally, even if you do have that one fireball ticking down, waiting for that bthrow, then you still have two others to work with and you can leave the throw fireball there as long as you want if your opponent is trying to get through the other two by swatting them away (free timer reset means another 3 seconds of stage control, AND you can potentially punish the hitlag).
Anyway, you have all of the options I listed at moderately-close distances. You want to keep the opponent away so you can safely deploy fireballs, which open up Zelda's options immensely. The opponent can't approach a fireball without getting hit by it, getting exploded, ending up in hitlag or shield, or ending with no positional advantage (in the case of projectiles).
I'm so confused by this decree of Zelda's "fraudulence" because I honestly don't see what everyone is getting so worked up about. Zelda is tons of fun for me, I'm sorry you don't think she is
Anyway, you have all of the options I listed at moderately-close distances. You want to keep the opponent away so you can safely deploy fireballs, which open up Zelda's options immensely. The opponent can't approach a fireball without getting hit by it, getting exploded, ending up in hitlag or shield, or ending with no positional advantage (in the case of projectiles).
I'm so confused by this decree of Zelda's "fraudulence" because I honestly don't see what everyone is getting so worked up about. Zelda is tons of fun for me, I'm sorry you don't think she is
Heero Yuy
#sweg
I read the discussion above and I feel like I'm losing faith in Zelda, too. Even though she's the most awesome (and most beautiful) female character in Smash, I may just have to keep her as at the most a secondary.
Will focus on Sheik for a while and will see how it goes. Zelda I feel like does do better than Sheik against some characters like Falco and Jigglypuff, but that's just from my experience.
Will focus on Sheik for a while and will see how it goes. Zelda I feel like does do better than Sheik against some characters like Falco and Jigglypuff, but that's just from my experience.
jtm94
Smash Lord
The solution to all of her issues being dins is part of what takes away from her fun. I find myself just sitting and placing dins for most of the match. I will still be playing her, and practicing, but maybe not as much as I was using her before. She is still my best character and one of my favorite.