Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[Kataefi]

I have a feeling Zelda's going to eventually be a hard counter vs d3. Here's for high hopes

 

[GreyFox86]

I have a feeling Zelda's going to eventually be a hard counter vs d3. Here's for high hopes

I hope so too, cause my friend is a Dreamland main. His D3 is VERY defensive and I end up getting grabbed by him.

I'm getting off topic here >.<

 

[-Mars-]

To be honest, I don't really mind playing this matchup at all.

One of the few matchups where I can actually use Dins Fire to maintain spacing. Pikachu's projectile is crap, it's so slow moving I can easily powershield, Naryu's, or cancel it with an attack. I don't connect that much with Dins, but it keeps Pika from their normal methods of approach. Dins also cancels out his side b recovery move, so you can then set up for some nice edgeguards. Dsmash at high percentages, then Dins to cancel the side b, then edgeguard. Keep in mind that Pika has a very good ledge stalling game though and he is better then you offstage. Be aggressive but be very wary and play smart offstage.

Fsmash is so good in this matchup, Pika DI'ing out of it doesnt really concern me either since I don't use this for kills. Outranges everything he has on the ground and is hard to punish if whiffed. Fair and bair kill at ridiculous percentages, it's hard to land these OoS, but when you do Pika usually won't be coming back.

Also if Pika tries his grab combos on you, I think Naryus breaks it. I'm not sure if it's 100% guaranteed, but it always works for me. I've actually been using Naryus as a combo breaker a lot recently............anyways back on subject.

Dtilt should flat out be spammed in this matchup. Cancels out thunderjolts, gets you 3-4 hits every time(more if your near the edge), and leads into low utilt kills. Stops his running usmash and other various approaches as well.

Of course usmash beats anything he has, but i'd rather use fsmash and save usmash. It can be hard to land the KO on Pikachu and you don't need usmash as much as you do in other matchups.

 

[Kataefi]

Thats the thing - Zelda keeps all her kill moves. Whereas she limits a lot of pika's kill choices because of the spacing she fights at. His FSmash outranges and it's his only move to cut through her range, but it will stale and hit at its tipper where it is most weak. This is just not enough to kill her. Plus, it's not lingering and is around 5 frames slower. His aerials are outprioritised by usmash and some by nair, he's insanely light and will die around anything over 80% (possibly 40% if uair, bair or fair connect near edge). She limits his thunder, plus nair and din's for edgeguarding blah blah blah ^^ (feel like I'm a broken record)

I think she has a teeny tiny advantage but only slight because of pika's versatility and movement. He can adapt easily to difficult situations whereas Zelda can't really adapt as well if she's facing difficulty.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

its looking like 55:45 Zelda then?

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

I'd say so, but what do the Pikas think on a final number?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i completely agree with it, though i will get to play hedgedawg when i get home after finals this week, and hopefully play with a little less lag. regardless i have a feeling this is 55-45 zelda

 

[RoyalBlood]

I'll update the front page then ^_^

 

[SinkingHigher]

its looking like 55:45 Zelda then?

I would have originally said 60:40 to Zelda, but yeah I could see that being a bit more accurate.

 

[RoyalBlood]

So any good stages to take Pikachu to? D=

 

[Stealth Raptor]

bf and mansion. the platforms on bf really hinder some of our approaches, and force us into your attacks, and mansion is just plain bad for us, expect most of usto ban mansion everytime.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

waht about the opposite. where does Pika want to take zelda?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

an open place, as well as small. i like FD, SV, Norfair, and corneria. pika though is a lot about personal preference. you could see any stage from us.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

even, the hannenbow if it was legal? lol
i like SV as pika

 

[Stealth Raptor]

lol i dont mind hanenbow too much. the qac possibilities are great, and thunder is always good there.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Dtilt should flat out be spammed in this matchup. Cancels out thunderjolts, gets you 3-4 hits every time(more if your near the edge), and leads into low utilt kills. Stops his running usmash and other various approaches as well.

eh... if you misspace it, you're gonna get Fsmashed by pika.

bf and mansion. the platforms on bf really hinder some of our approaches, and force us into your attacks, and mansion is just plain bad for us, expect most of usto ban mansion everytime.

clearly both of those stages are great. both are bad for pika and both are good for zelda. Luigi's mansion is the better of the two. but it's SO much better that it'll normally be banned

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

oops. double post!

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

clearly both of those stages are great. both are bad for pika and both are good for zelda. Luigi's mansion is the better of the two. but it's SO much better that it'll normally be banned

haha, thats what I thought as soon as he said BF and LM were pikas bad stages.


This discussion hasn't really been that heated, people got together, played some games, and no one has thoughts that are completely different from what has been generally agreed upon.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

to clarify bf is not that bad of a pika stage, it is just too good for zelda.

 

[ZxChrono]

U-tilt is used in combos, often after fairs or grabs.
9.5 times out of 10 you won't see the u-tilt coming when a good Pikachu hits you with it.
Even when you do, you can't DI outside of the thunder's range once you're at the higher %'s. And this is true on all characters, anything but exclusive to Zelda.
I completely agree with Anther and would (again) call this match-up 50/50.

I have a tournament tomorrow so I can play some Zeldas here on Sunday night or Monday.

I dont think its 9.5 times( a bit too much) out of 10 if you play someone who knows the matchup. Zelda was my main until I picked up DK and all the pikas I play try to get me in different variations of getting hit by thunder while I am in the air. Yes it is true that you can't fully DI out of the thunders range at high % but you can DI enough to be at the edge of the range and then air dodge out of it. I do agree though that it's a good way to get someone in the thunder but don't expect it to work everytime, the thunder takes a bit of time to execute so if they don't DI the utilt then expect them to be hit by it regardless of what they do. Unless of course they do down b, but then it could be countered depending on how well you time your next thunder attack.

 

[NinjaLink]

Sorry i was out for the weekend so i couldnt do any more input for the matchup. I wanted to add that pikachu has the LONGEST trip animation. U have alot of time to do an uptilt or fair or whatever. Its about a 1.5 seconds i think. Not too sure on that.

 

[Brinzy]

Pikachu, of all characters? Jesus.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Kirby. He's a good character, but I don't have a lot of problems with him.

he has a hard time killing us, he's light and he's easy to outprioritize.

I've yet to play a chudat or anything, but I've yet to lose to the kirbys I have played.

Also. I tend to spike kirbys more often than other charcters. dunno if that's just me.


As for the pikachu matchup. Sure you'll PROBABLY have to play on battlefield because pikachu is likely to ban mansion. But technically mansion is the best stange in which to fight pika. it's a VERY easy win there.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Yes but then Pikachu bans Battlefield and we get Luigi's Mansion or either he bans Mansion's and we get Battlefield ^_^

 

[DarkThundah]

If we're discussing Kirby then DM has some good vids that can give people an idea of how to play:

Him winning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EaBqJ42kAI&feature=related

Him loosing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAUxqMpUNAQ

I really think spacing, while always important in a zelda fight, is even more so in this match up.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Spacing is always important for zelda perhaps moreso with kirby though... that's true.

Yes but then Pikachu bans Battlefield and we get Luigi's Mansion or either he bans Mansion's and we get Battlefield ^_^

well then if we pick whichever one is left, then why not be honest about which is preferable? <.<

 

[GreyFox86]

I would like to hear more about this match-ups cause we have a lot of Kirby's here in SA.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Okay. so luigi's mansion then BF for pikachu... and, to reopen an old matchup, TBQH, I'd choose jungle japes for ike. opinions?

 

[-Mars-]

Okay. so luigi's mansion then BF for pikachu... and, to reopen an old matchup, TBQH, I'd choose jungle japes for ike. opinions?

Japes sounds great against Ike. We can avoid vertical KO's until extremely high percentages and if he tries to avoid the left side and stay completely on the right.......we get low percentage KO's off of lightning kicks.

We can also move better around the stage than he can. This means that a lot of the time we can harass with Dins with no fear of being punished with a fair.

I also like Frigate a lot vs. Ike, but that may just be me.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Japes sounds great against Ike. We can avoid vertical KO's until extremely high percentages and if he tries to avoid the left side and stay completely on the right.......we get low percentage KO's off of lightning kicks.

We can also move better around the stage than he can. This means that a lot of the time we can harass with Dins with no fear of being punished with a fair.

I also like Frigate a lot vs. Ike, but that may just be me.

Japes:
Ike also has more trouble getting out of the water than even zelda. That's a big plus.

ike kills us easier off the top than we do, so the massive ceiling hurts him more than us.

ike can't camp us, so the camper friendliness of the stage only hurts him. makes it easier for us to force his hand.

Dsmash kills better for us than normal because he can't drift toward the stage and up+B because of water.



Orpheon:
why? if anything I wouldn't like it because it makes it hard for us to get away from him, and the nongrabbable lege leaves us susceptible to punishment for farore's landing lag. I wouldn't chose it given the option. I'd say japes and FD are better choices normally.

 

[-Mars-]

Orpheon:
why? if anything I wouldn't like it because it makes it hard for us to get away from him, and the nongrabbable lege leaves us susceptible to punishment for farore's landing lag. I wouldn't chose it given the option. I'd say japes and FD are better choices normally.

The main reason Ike has an advantage on Zelda is because of his spacing. On the starting part of Frigate, the stage is incredibly small so he can't space as well with his fair and such. I'd rather only have to deal with his jabs, then fairs, ftilts, and nairs. Aside from his jab, we completely outspeed him up close. I don't know why everyone thinks we should be running away from Ike, what advantage does that give us? I like to be in fsmash range at all times. Jabs are bad, but not too safe on block.........bair OoS is great.

I actually think the ledge on Frigate hurts him more than us. At least with Farore's he has to predict somewhat where we will end up, whereas with Aether you know where the recovery will land.

Also has a nice little platform in there for lightning kicks and uairs.

Probably just me, but I personally like this stage.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The main reason Ike has an advantage on Zelda is because of his spacing. On the starting part of Frigate, the stage is incredibly small so he can't space as well with his fair and such. I'd rather only have to deal with his jabs, then fairs, ftilts, and nairs. Aside from his jab, we completely outspeed him up close. I don't know why everyone thinks we should be running away from Ike, what advantage does that give us? I like to be in fsmash range at all times. Jabs are bad, but not too safe on block.........bair OoS is great.

I actually think the ledge on Frigate hurts him more than us. At least with Farore's he has to predict somewhat where we will end up, whereas with Aether you know where the recovery will land.

Also has a nice little platform in there for lightning kicks and uairs.

Probably just me, but I personally like this stage.

that seems more a personal style thing. but I think we can all agree Japes is good for the matchup?

that still leaves the captain falcon matchup and the pikachu matchup <_<

for some reason, we all said "luigi's mansion is a COMPLETE counterpick to pikachu" and battlefeild gets put up.

and for captain falcon, just like Ike, some stage got arbitrarily put up. I don't really see corneria as a good stage against him at all. the way the stage is built allows him to approach easier than normal and the RIDICULOUSLY close blast zones lets him edgeguard kill us with uair when he shouldn't. We get earilier kills here, but that's it. It'll certainly make the match go much quicker, but not in the most advantageous fashion. nothing's wrong with playing a slower stage that increases the chances of victory.

I also don't rememeber how much we actually discussed the peach stage, but since peach doesn't have a campy game and we normally kill peach vertically, I can't imagine mansion does better for us than battlefield or some other stage.

 

[DarkThundah]

Wow, this is a pretty heated pit/zelda debate, well I guess we'll get some fairly accurate match up numbers then.

And this:

simple : our aerial game is that much better as we do not need to worry about theese things your better off spamming dins and waiting for us to come back and kill us with upsmash. Pit's recovery is very good even without the upB. i would say zeldas recovery is worse and pits edgeguarding is better.

You see, this is exactly what they dont want us to do. They want us to just sit their far away and spam dins, because their scared. So go my warriers, jump off that edge and kick him square in the face.

 

[GodAtHand]

^ You are like... a month too late for that (Pit) discussion. Sorry!



As for Zelda/Kirby I am just going to throw up my opinion. 60-40 Zelda, why?
Because everything he can do we have an answer for. Most of his hit boxes are attached to his body and if not attached they are very close, this makes it difficult for him to get close enough to attack. Our smashes pretty much stop everything he can try... besides maybe the brick attack, but who does that? For his small size he is surprisingly easy to lighting kick, I think it might be because of his bad ariel maneuverability. He is light so he dies at early percents. The only thing to watch out for is a sneak attack hammer, and maybe him suiciding with you...

 

[Kataefi]

Also... Zelda's dtilt seroiusly eliminates the use of his fsmash. It clashes, is faster, and locks him, plus leads into utilt for a clean 80% kill.

Kirby's 4th lightest in the game.

 

[MK26]

Also... Zelda's dtilt seroiusly eliminates the use of his fsmash. It clashes, is faster, and locks him, plus leads into utilt for a clean 80% kill.

Kirby's 4th lightest in the game.

4th vertically because he falls so slowly
8th horizontally

Other than that, nobody disagrees with 60-40 Zelda

Zelda is basically Kirby's low tier counter...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Zelda is basically Kirby's low tier counter...

Low tier?

Since when? Zelda ranks Mid tier, and at about the true middle of the tier list.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

4th vertically because he falls so slowly
8th horizontally

Other than that, nobody disagrees with 60-40 Zelda

Zelda is basically Kirby's low tier counter...

Zelda's not low teir <.<

but anyway yeah.

Kirby's Fsmash and rock are about all that'll get through Zelda's sparkly fortress, and both of those are punishable if he does them and we counter. Dtilt wreck Fsmash as does spotdodging it. Zelda has an eaier time hitting kirby out of rock than most. she can just fsmash it a little before she thinks he's going to come out and the stone will hold out the hitboxes. chances are, kirby won't avoid all of them.

Our USmash rejects most of his normally reliable aerial approaches.

his poor aerial mobility makes him an easy target for zelda's power aerials and her spike off the edge.

he's still got his juggles on us, though zelda doesn't stay juggled for too long due to her floatiness and weight, but I'd say this is zelda's matchup to lose.

60:40 sounds right.

let's dicuss stages next?

 

[GodAtHand]

Battlefield for all the usually reasons...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

he doesn't have a projectile and his aeiral approach against zelda is bad anyway, so luigi's mansion doesn't seem a good choice in this case. IT'll hamper our vertical KO ability, but it'll also hamper his aerial combo ability. I would keep this one in your back pocket in case his aerial comboes are totally wrecking you, but otherwise, I'd shy away.

Battlefield still excells for all the regualr reasons.

Smashville and FD don't do anything to help or hurt either of you really.

I'd probably shy away from yoshi's island. I think the stage layout slightly favours kirby. IT's still not something significant, but it's something.

Delfino, halberd and Lylat have their usual problems, though delfino allows us for water spikes if we get a chance.

I've heard brinstar is a really good kirby stage and the non-solid main platform gives us the same problems as we have on lylat, delfino and halberd as far as sweetspotting the ledge with farores. if it's as good as I've heard for kirby, then I'd say a BIG NO here.

Japes' water is harder for kirby than it is for us. hard for him to approach us if we stand on a side platform though.

neither pokemon stadium seems to help zelda much.

frigate orpheon has he sweetspotting trouble that the other stages mentioned earlier do.

castle seige doesn't seem to be a bad idea at all really.

norfair seems only to give kirby more options for approach and zelda still can't sweetspot.

Rainbow cruise is easier for him to prgress through than us.

Distant planet seems about neutral... not much to say


I think I've covered enough and, from this, it seems that Battlefield is, indeed, the best option.