Zelda Edgeguarding/Offstage Discussion!

[zeldspazz]

~Zelda's Edgeguarding/Offstage Discussion!~​

Yup, you read it right. I decided we need this kinda of thread. This is the place you can talk about anything pretaining with edgeguarding with Zelda! This is really a whole new way to step up her metagame. Unexplored territory, and I think it's time to start seeing what we she can do! ​

Here you can suggest anything having to do with edgeguarding options. Dont be afraid! Step up and suggest something. YOU WILL NEVER KNOW UNTIL YOU TRY!! I will update the OP with anything thats viable and worth mentioning, and hopefully we can prove to people that Zelda can do some wonderful things off the edge!​

To start off, I have been doing a ton of research with Zelda's nair, and later today I will be posting some pictures and strategies that may be worth experimenting with!​

Here's to start:​

~Nair uses while opponent is on the edge~

This was really fun. I NEED PEOPLE TO HELP ME RESEARCH THIS! So many things can happen when you nair someone while they are on the edge, depending on if you fastfall, your movement during the move, characters weight/height, etc. It's really cool! Let me give you an example of one that works a lot.​

Ok, you are starting in the neutral condition​

​

Walkoff nair (I know its not DK, I did DK to show what I meant by "neutral position xD)​

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If executed at the proper time, this is the position the character should be in​

​

Then, simply DJ Fair for good chunk of damage. Note that this was done at 0% when all hits connected. In order for this to be done at higher percentages, the last hit cannot connect! This is still a work in progress, so I need help testing this!​

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Also on some characters, this same method works, but instead you must not DJ and immediately fair (so far I've gotten this to work on Pikachu and a few other smaller characters)​

Thats it for right now, discuss and have fun with this!!! ​

 

[mountain_tiger]

So basically this is like the Fairy Fountain except explicitly for edgeguarding rather than general Zelda stuff? Sounds good to me.

Zelda's actually a pretty good edgeguarder if you can learn her tactics well enough. I'm sure she must has some stuff pertaining to Nayru's, (considering that it briefly) halts her downwards momentum. I might look into this a bit tomorrow.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

isn't this more ledge traps as opposed to edge guarding? If my opponent is hanging on the ledge till his invicibility wears out wouldn't dtilt be be better?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

this is not that helpful since it only works if the opponent stays on the edge and then does not say you coming to get them. you might as well put that if someone is on the edge and you dair them while they are still on the edge or right when they are jumping off free spike, it works but it will almost never happen. and AIMoS guy is right this is ledge traps not edge guarding.

sorry if this sound mean but this is something that would almost never work on a competent human player only on cpu's.

mountain tiger: Nayru's sucks in the air it is only useful for momentum canceling and reflecting often it leaves u in a bad spot if you try to attack with it. I tried that stuff i while back.

Zelda's edge guard is pretty weak over all, u could try lighting kicks but it often wont work, u can try spiking but that is situational and also often will be beaten. you can din's which can be beaten and dodged but at least its no risk to zelda and can put your opponent in a bad spot if they air dodge it. And then she has nair which is disjointed so in the air it is your best choice and i made a thread which explains how to use that (it is a high risk to slightly less high reward: like a 10 out of 10 risky to a 7-8 reward). Also what you should do is character based.

 

[zeldspazz]

isn't this more ledge traps as opposed to edge guarding? If my opponent is hanging on the ledge till his invicibility wears out wouldn't dtilt be be better?

Depends on how you look at it. We dont know if dtilt unless we try this. This method can kill some characters at 0% if my second example works. Which is why we should look into it, because this isnt really territory we've been trying to crack.

this is not that helpful since it only works if the opponent stays on the edge and then does not say you coming to get them. you might as well put that if someone is on the edge and you dair them while they are still on the edge or right when they are jumping off free spike, it works but it will almost never happen. and AIMoS guy is right this is ledge traps not edge guarding.

sorry if this sound mean but this is something that would almost never work on a competent human player only on cpu's.

mountain tiger: Nayru's sucks in the air it is only useful for momentum canceling and reflecting often it leaves u in a bad spot if you try to attack with it. I tried that stuff i while back.

Again, ledgetraps, edgeguarding, Ive just been doign some research. Maybe Ill change it to Offstage Game. And no, this can be done on competant players, how that's like saying ZSS's Dsmash wont work when the opponent is on the edge.

Zelda's edge guard is pretty weak over all, u could try lighting kicks but it often wont work, u can try spiking but that is situational and also often will be beaten. you can din's which can be beaten and dodged but at least its no risk to zelda and can put your opponent in a bad spot if they air dodge it. And then she has nair which is disjointed so in the air it is your best choice and i made a thread which explains how to use that (it is a high risk to slightly less high reward: like a 10 out of 10 risky to a 7-8 reward). Also what you should do is character based.

Which is why I made this thead. Nobody has done any extensive research on all the options Zelda has offstage. If you dont wanna contribute fine, but Im going to continue to try and improve her metagame whether you do or not.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

first off zss d-smash is different it hits while someone is recovering and is far more useful do to its spacing and properties.

2nd it does not work on competent players all i played when i used zelda was competent player and no one would fall for this. I have played some good tourney level players to some of the best and even the best in the world and none of them fell for this stuff. i have tried it it does not work if the player is good.

I did contribute i in my first post gave a quick overview of all of zelda's edge guarding possibilities and if thats not contributing then i don't know what is.

 

[zeldspazz]

Yeah, because you defidently cant hit anyone with nair while they are recovering *sarcasm*. Lightning Kicks, spiking, and Dins are what we already know. I wanna find out what we dont know.

You do know you can start nair before invincibility frames end and still have parts of the move hit. Or you can do this before they get to the edge. Which is why we can research this. Anything is worth researching. Look at Saviorslegacy. He gets down to every single AT in the game and tries to find a use for it. Thats what Im going to do too.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

now from what i can tell in you pictures the guy is on the ledge and then u jump off and nair him. that wont work. now trying to nair someone who is recovering can work but is dangerous (in fact thats what the thread i made was about). and the reason its not worth looking into is b/c it already was a long time ago. For months we worked on what she can do in different situations and since her game play has not really changed it all still holds true.

 

[zeldspazz]

Obviously Im not gonna crack you. You dont have to post here if you dont want to help. Its ok.
And you dont jump. You walk off the edge.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yeah, because you defidently cant hit anyone with nair while they are recovering *sarcasm*. Lightning Kicks, spiking, and Dins are what we already know. I wanna find out what we dont know.

You do know you can start nair before invincibility frames end and still have parts of the move hit. Or you can do this before they get to the edge. Which is why we can research this. Anything is worth researching. Look at Saviorslegacy. He gets down to every single AT in the game and tries to find a use for it. Thats what Im going to do too.

Cool you want to advance her metagame. But you have to crawl before you walk how about you discuss solid options Zelda has while an opponent is on the ledge before you start nair, bair stage spiking people. Build a foundation then improve upon that.

 

[zeldspazz]

Cool you want to advance her metagame. But you have to crawl before you walk how about you discuss solid options Zelda has while an opponent is on the ledge before you start nair, bair stage spiking people. Build a foundation then improve upon that.

Of course of course. This was to get the ball rolling, because me and Xfading have both been doing nair research and its just something I noticed last night and I wanted to get this out there to see what we can do.

How is dtilt->fair/dair? Susa also post some grab release stuff in the Fairy Fountin that could be useful. Suggestions are always welcomed and wanted

Edit: Also hoping to get some kill percentages using fair/bair offstage, could be useful so you know when to start going out for the kill.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Just a couple of question.

How'd you get your opponent on the edge at zero. Do you have any vids of this and have you done this against an actual person?

 

[zeldspazz]

Nah dude this is just some random testing by myself. Nothing huge yet. I did test it at higher percentages though, the second nair trick works at any percentage, and the 1st one works if the last hit of nair doesnt connect. Im gonna try corresponding these into some friendlies soon though, try to work it out. I just found this at 10pm last night xD

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Nah dude this is just some random testing by myself. Nothing huge yet. I did test it at higher percentages though, the second nair trick works at any percentage, and the 1st one works if the last hit of nair doesnt connect. Im gonna try corresponding these into some friendlies soon though, try to work it out. I just found this at 10pm last night xD

Hmmm still doesn't seem worth it IDK i'll try some different edgeguarding stuff the next time I get a chance to play.

 

[zeldspazz]

I honestly have hardly even looked into it. Im not even completely sure if it will turn out to be useful. But, considering theres been like no research into, I thought Id post it and see what others can do with it. Im thinking might work if you intercept a recovery opponent with nair too. IDK, just pitching ideas.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

=/ this isn't going to be cool neither are nair edgeguards.

 

['V']

N-air is just about the best option for this, but try not to go for too much, because SDI varies A LOT, especially on multi-hit moves like that. Missing will put her in a very bad position and could result in her getting edge-guarded/hugged herself. It leaves for a good surprise option though.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

N-air is just about the best option for this, but try not to go for too much, because SDI varies A LOT, especially on multi-hit moves like that. Missing will put her in a very bad position and could result in her getting edge-guarded/hugged herself. It leaves for a good surprise option though.

Na it doesn't surprise anyone. You're better of dtilting or standing outside the range of their get up attack and just read that. If you come to close to the ledge some characters can ledge drop > aerial while they still have invincibilty frames. Marth will fair you luigi will uair you for example. It's better to read your opponents response then proceed to act accordingly.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Na it doesn't surprise anyone.

Either I'm reading this horribly wrong or you're just saying that doing something completely unusual, out-of-character and against odds doesn't surprise anyone, which is just an absurd statement. Will it work often? Hellz no. Is it the best option? Maybe, maybe not. Will it be surprising when done suddenly? Hellz yeah.

Besides, I think you are missing the point of this thread. As far as I see it isn't meant to be: "Hey everyone look at this amazing new technique!" -thread but rather like "Let's start researching and listing her options in certain situations" -thread, only using this one tech as an example of what she can do to start some discussion. If you think this is useless don't waste your time writing million posts about how useless it is but rather go out there and find something that works better and write a post about that. That helps much more in evolving the metagame.


Otherwise, now that my computer's working again, I'll try to post something here soon alongside with updating my own threads. I actually have something in mind that might belong here.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Either I'm reading this horribly wrong or you're just saying that doing something completely unusual, out-of-character and against odds doesn't surprise anyone, which is just an absurd statement. Will it work often? Hellz no. Is it the best option? Maybe, maybe not. Will it be surprising when done suddenly? Hellz yeah.

Besides, I think you are missing the point of this thread. As far as I see it isn't meant to be: "Hey everyone look at this amazing new technique!" -thread but rather like "Let's start researching and listing her options in certain situations" -thread, only using this one tech as an example of what she can do to start some discussion. If you think this is useless don't waste your time writing million posts about how useless it is but rather go out there and find something that works better and write a post about that. That helps much more in evolving the metagame.


Otherwise, now that my computer's working again, I'll try to post something here soon alongside with updating my own threads. I actually have something in mind that might belong here.

I know the point of the thread. However, this isn't going to surprise no one. For the reason I already stated. If anyone is allowing you to walk past them while they're on the edge is a bad player. I tried this last night also and my opponent was like why aren't you dtilting or something along those lines. This is a situational move that will not work unless you're playing against a bad opponent or a level 1 comp. But it's like I said if you want to start a discussion about zelda's options on the ledge let's start with something practical and build a foundation then improve upon this. However walk off nair > bair is just a silly notion or concept that will not work unless the opponent is bad. Same goes for B reversed Nayru's love. You can't imrpove her metagame or advance it if there's no base for her to improve upon. The thread show look more something like this

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=200150

Not how he started. I'm not trying to be harsh just saying we need a starting point before we go off on these tangents. His heart is in the right place however, he's going about it the wrong way.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Edgeguarding with zelda is almost ALWAYS high risk.

remember that.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Edgeguarding with zelda is almost ALWAYS high risk.

remember that.

That's what din's fire is for.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Using Din's alone in edgeguarding will get you nowhere. It's easy to dodge, easy to defend against and easy to see coming. Sure, it's her safest option and can force airdodges, but it still isn't something you could call good edgeguarder. Many characters can even punish it so it would be pointless at best to rely purely on it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Using Din's alone in edgeguarding will get you nowhere. It's easy to dodge, easy to defend against and easy to see coming. Sure, it's her safest option and can force airdodges, but it still isn't something you could call good edgeguarder. Many characters can even punish it so it would be pointless at best to rely purely on it.

Punish Din's how so? Especially if we consider the knock back on the move. Also yeah it can be easy to dodge. However that's where it falls on the Zelda player to be able to make it hit their opponent. Depending on how they Air dodge they will just air dodge into the ****. Depending on how low they are it can also cause them to just end up killing them self because they're afraid of the kill powering. It also open up gimp possibilities depending on their recovery. Din see how they respond. If they do an attack to cancel then explode it earlier or later. If they airdodge towards the stage up smash/ dash attack to punish the air dodge. If their recovering low din will either screw their recovery or they take they attack. If they take the attack follow up accordingly. I usually send din at them after every move that knocks them off stage.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Punish Din's how so?

Zelda vs. Pit: Pit shoots an arrow as soon as you activate Din => you lose control of the move, take some damage and Pit doesn't suffer at all.

Zelda vs. MK: MK activates tornado and attacks you. Since you're using Din's you can't defend or dodge and will get hit.

Zelda vs. Sheik: Sheik will FF to avoid the move and DACUS.

The list goes on, but my point is this: many characters have ways to punish Din's fire when Zelda is controlling the fireball. Some are more reliable and versatile while others are just gimmicky things without real practical usages, but the move can still very well be punished.

Depending on how they Air dodge they will just air dodge into the ****.

It's true that you can time Din so that they'll not airdodge correctly but that's it. If you're talking about punishing them after their airdodge they'll have to practically land on you with their airdodge (at least close enough for hyphen smash to hit) which can be avoided by landing further away or grabbing the ledge instead. I'm not saying it'll never happen as I've done it myself quite a lot too, but most of the time you can't punish after Din.

Depending on how low they are it can also cause them to just end up killing them self because they're afraid of the kill powering.

If they're enough low and far away from the stage for you to aim Din there they're either dead anyway or MK. If it's the first you'll just save them, if it's the latter Din doesn't do a squat.

If they do an attack to cancel then explode it earlier or later.

Except that this doesn't work against anyone with a sex kick.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Zelda vs. Pit: Pit shoots an arrow as soon as you activate Din => you lose control of the move, take some damage and Pit doesn't suffer at all.

Zelda vs. MK: MK activates tornado and attacks you. Since you're using Din's you can't defend or dodge and will get hit.

Zelda vs. Sheik: Sheik will FF to avoid the move and DACUS.

The list goes on, but my point is this: many characters have ways to punish Din's fire when Zelda is controlling the fireball. Some are more reliable and versatile while others are just gimmicky things without real practical usages, but the move can still very well be punished.

I don't see how any of this is possible. Especially if you're start din's while their in hit stun. The FF to dacus doesn't even make sense to me.

It's true that you can time Din so that they'll not airdodge correctly but that's it. If you're talking about punishing them after their airdodge they'll have to practically land on you with their airdodge (at least close enough for hyphen smash to hit) which can be avoided by landing further away or grabbing the ledge instead. I'm not saying it'll never happen as I've done it myself quite a lot too, but most of the time you can't punish after Din.

I normally do din on the edge of the stage or closer to it leaving them very little options to escape with.

If they're enough low and far away from the stage for you to aim Din there they're either dead anyway or MK. If it's the first you'll just save them, if it's the latter Din doesn't do a squat.

Except that this doesn't work against anyone with a sex kick.

Depends on the character but a lot of characters recover low because it's safe. If they recover low to sweet spot the ledge any action of than their Up will most likely lead to death for them. If they cancel it you can also go for the edge hog depending on the character.

 

[mountain_tiger]

OK, I think I've got a (situational) technique that might help with edgeguarding, known as 'The Nayru Edge Glide'. You knw how when you use Nayru's after being hit, you travel rapidly in the direction of your current momentum. Well, I've been able to find a pseudo- Nayru's Jump which can be done on command, without being hit, using a ledge. Here's what you do:

1) Run towards the edge
2) The instant you run off the edge, input Nayru's.
3) If you did it right, you should be travelling in a downwards arc, whereas if you did it wrong you simply end up fallign straight down.

This could be useful against someone recovering from low down, and you can usually force this via the use of DSmash. Through this technique, you can launch yourself straight into them, and pop them away slightly, and follow up. When I did it, they usually ended up slightly above me for a Uair, though they can also end up away from you for a LK as well. You can then usually recover safely, since Zelda's recovery is actually quite long distance.

So yeah. Thoughts on this?

 

[zeldspazz]

Haha, lots of stuff today I see.

HSS is completely right, this is just to get people minds thinking. You know, think outside the box? If you want a starting point then come up with one :\ I started this thread for you guys, not me. Im not going to sit around and do all this research alone. This should be a community project.

Dins is a bad option for edgeguarding, it really is. The only plus to it is that it surprises some people at long range and they die, but a good opponent will know when to airdodge.

Also on my technique, I was thinking maybe you can follow up with nair after you dtilt them on the edge, not certain on this its just a thought.

@MT: Sounds weird, do you have any pics I dont think Im following it right.

 

[mountain_tiger]

@MT: Sounds weird, do you have any pics I dont think Im following it right.

No pics or vids due to lack of a camera.

Imagine Zelda is falling, and she use's Nayru's. She stalls briefly then continues to fall. With Nayru's Edge Gliding, she runs off the edge, ues her running momentum to propel her NAyru's forward slightly while falling. Imagine an ant on a vertically inclined plate falling onto the right hand side.

Try it out and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

1) Run towards the edge
2) The instant you run off the edge, input Nayru's.
3) If you did it right, you should be travelling in a downwards arc, whereas if you did it wrong you simply end up fallign straight down.

Works on the exact same physics as Mario's cape glide (or as some call it, ACE). It might be useful as a surprise move but I didn't find it too useful when I was playing around with it. Not to say it still couldn't be.

I actually have quite a lot of Zelda's ledge tricks recorded on my hard drive (thank god I had backups) and I might compile a vid about them and post it here or GFF.

 

[zeldspazz]

Sounds Great HSS!

MT: Nice experimenting, Im sure that could be useful in some situations, try puting into some friendlies and see how it goes

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i was trying to find the old video of the nayru's edge glide u guys are talking about sadly i could not find it. But i would like to say no one found a use for this back in the day but i am not sure how hard we tried since it is very risky (side B to death) so it would be cool if someone found a use for this.

Also i found a old video and its kinda cool just wait for the edit so i can post it.
video 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=mk97cjCxylg

video 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfNbcRBR-0M&locale=en_US&persist_locale=1

video 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LRXRkVs3S0

we know now these jumps are caused by a special giving more momentum when u r hit but its still cool and might have a use

 

[zeldspazz]

Are you talking about Love jumping NAGACE?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i know what they are talking about the thing which is like mario's cape glitch. i just found these old videos and decided to post them since they are kinda AT for zelda.

 

[zeldspazz]

Ok I understand

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

tried the nair thing again and just totally went past my opponents character lol.

 

[zeldspazz]

nairobi???

What lol?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

meant nair my fault

 

[zeldspazz]

Oh ok. Yeah its a bit difficult to do in the heat of battle. Im wondering if you set it up with dtilt or somethin

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Oh ok. Yeah its a bit difficult to do in the heat of battle. Im wondering if you set it up with dtilt or somethin

Na when he grabbed the ledge i went for it.