Zelda Balance and MU Learning

[DarkStarStorm]

Din's fire is the least of my problems. It's just a chore and disappointment for me to fight her. Course, that's why I'm trying to learn the matchup. I've tried to follow this but
1) Most of this has been for the Ness matchup, and Ness and Yoshi aren't similar.
2)I can't provide a vid for WhiteLightning so yeah.

I tried using egg lay to throw Zelda off... It worked miserably. Other then getting luck started combos in (Which the Zelda player will promply get salty at) I've hit a dead end with my Zelda MU. I'm calming down and reducing the salt in my system but I still need to learn this MU.



Pls, Zelda don't need nurf. I agree. I just don't like the chore involved with fighting her. That's why I'm learning the match up. (Don't make me Eggstinct pls).

Peace out Zelda's.

~Deviljho

Then let's all go to JCaesar's page and tell him.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Din's fire is the least of my problems. It's just a chore and disappointment for me to fight her. Course, that's why I'm trying to learn the matchup. I've tried to follow this but
1) Most of this has been for the Ness matchup, and Ness and Yoshi aren't similar.
2)I can't provide a vid for WhiteLightning so yeah.

I tried using egg lay to throw Zelda off... It worked miserably. Other then getting luck started combos in (Which the Zelda player will promply get salty at) I've hit a dead end with my Zelda MU. I'm calming down and reducing the salt in my system but I still need to learn this MU.



Pls, Zelda don't need nurf. I agree. I just don't like the chore involved with fighting her. That's why I'm learning the match up. (Don't make me Eggstinct pls).

Peace out Zelda's.

~Deviljho

Hey, if you're looking to learn the Zelda match up, go on over to this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/tips-for-fighting-a-zelda.350917/
I tried to center most of my tips around what Zelda's like to do and some of their techniques that you should watch out for.

 

[Deviljho]

Hey, if you're looking to learn the Zelda match up, go on over to this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/tips-for-fighting-a-zelda.350917/
I tried to center most of my tips around what Zelda's like to do and some of their techniques that you should watch out for.

I did, and it helped some, but half of the ways you said to counter it were Gannon exclusive. Yoshi can't Wizards Foot or Arty Vortex.

 

[ShadowGanon]

I did, and it helped some, but half of the ways you said to counter it were Gannon exclusive. Yoshi can't Wizards Foot or Arty Vortex.

lol. I tried. If I could play Yoshi, I would totally try to help you out, but I HATE playing as Yoshi (No offense. Just not my character).

 

[Deviljho]

lol. I tried. If I could play Yoshi, I would totally try to help you out, but I HATE playing as Yoshi (No offense. Just not my character).

Haha, It's all good. The lil Dinosaur isn't for everyone. And thanks for trying! Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the help I did get out of what you supplied.

 

[Pika_thunder]

(And by on top, I mean 3rd. It's still pretty unanimous that Fox and Falco are better in most situations, and no one is calling for them to get nerfed either).

Fox and Falco are complained about alot... With good reason, they are actually overpowered!

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I did, and it helped some, but half of the ways you said to counter it were Gannon exclusive. Yoshi can't Wizards Foot or Arty Vortex.

I read that as Wizard's Footy lol.

Fox and Falco are complained about alot... With good reason, they are actually overpowered!

And Zelda isn't overpowered. (not being sarcastic) She really isn't OP.

 

[The_NZA]

Just going to go ahead and point out that I don't think anyone has claimed Zelda is overpowered in recent memory in this thread. Also, Overpowered isn't/shouldn't be the threshold of whether a character deserves or doesn't deserve changes. Overpowered is simply the most extreme threshold to justify changes to a character design.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Haha, It's all good. The lil Dinosaur isn't for everyone. And thanks for trying! Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the help I did get out of what you supplied.

I haven't forgotten about you Deviljho! I'm just trying to gather a lot of information for you that is matchup specific before I post. I'll post it over in the tips for fighting a Zelda thread when I have enough on hand to make it worthwhile for you.

 

[Pika_thunder]

And Zelda isn't overpowered.

Of course! I must have given you the wrong impression. Fox and Falco = OP, Zelda = balenced... Unless you are a nub

 

[Deviljho]

I haven't forgotten about you Deviljho! I'm just trying to gather a lot of information for you that is matchup specific before I post. I'll post it over in the tips for fighting a Zelda thread when I have enough on hand to make it worthwhile for you.

Sweeeet! Thanks a ton WhiteLightnin! I can't wait. :D

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Of course! I must have given you the wrong impression. Fox and Falco = OP, Zelda = balenced... Unless you are a nub

That's why we need to complain to @JCaesar. Zelda doesn't need changes, she's fine as is. Don't change her! The only reason why people complain is because they don't know the MU and a lot of them are newbs.

 

[Deviljho]

...a lot of them are newbs.

T_T *sigh* Well, in our defense Zelda IS a hard MU to learn... But yes. I agree with learning the matchup. When I learn from you guys I'll teach the rest of the Yoshi boards the MU. Or direct them to you guys. One person at a time. I don't feel like complaining is your answer.

 

[flying_tortoise]

T_T *sigh* Well, in our defense Zelda IS a hard MU to learn... But yes. I agree with learning the matchup. When I learn from you guys I'll teach the rest of the Yoshi boards the MU. Or direct them to you guys. One person at a time. I don't feel like complaining is your answer.

lolol calling yourself a noob. Gl man with the learning.

 

[Deviljho]

lolol calling yourself a noob. Gl man with the learning.

I assumed he was calling everyone who didn't know the matchup a noob. lolol Thanks for the luck!

 

[Prynne]

My Friend, who mains Lucas is absolutely convinced that Zelda is OP. In his defense, he hasn't beaten me yet, but I don't know how to explain to him that she's balanced. He says she's easy to pick up, and that anyone can use her, which is somewhat true, but also not at the same time. I don't know how to describe it. I'm still pretty new to this.
I feel your (plaural) pain. If they nerf her, I'll be sad.

 

[foxygrandpa]

zelda isnt OP, but she requires specific matchup experience, more so than the other characters. Im a sheik main and have just played around with zelda, and I think that she is far more fun to play with than to play against. One thing I would be up for changing is making the din's explosion range more predictable. Not necessarily smaller, but the huge explosions are just too weird to be able to get used to.

 

[Prynne]

I agree, wholeheartedly. Minor tweaks such as that would be welcome in my opinion. I like a bit of a challenge, anyway, so even of they do nerf her, I'll stand by Zelda anyhow. Plus, there's always Sheik. Sheik and I are buds too.
The Zelda matchup is a tough one at first, but I feel like it can be overcome, just like any matchup. But that's about all I have to say.

 

[Garde Noir]

My Friend, who mains Lucas is absolutely convinced that Zelda is OP. In his defense, he hasn't beaten me yet, but I don't know how to explain to him that she's balanced. He says she's easy to pick up, and that anyone can use her, which is somewhat true, but also not at the same time. I don't know how to describe it. I'm still pretty new to this.
I feel your (plaural) pain. If they nerf her, I'll be sad.

If he thinks it's easy, switch characters. See if you do better against him than he does against you. If it's better (which I guess it will be) then congrats, it's easy to basically pick up. But then you can show him that what he does with Zelda needs to be what he predicts against her.
That's what I did against my friends. As soon as they spent a week playing Zelda, the competition got a lot harder-- they knew Din's Fire a lot better, Nayru's was a lot more predictable, and they countered better-- they expected lightning kicks, and DI'ed throws correctly.

If he refuses, then ignore him-- he just wants to complain.
Plus, if you keep destroying him-- its a good time to pick up a secondary.

 

[Prynne]

@ Garde Noir Thanks for the help! I've already told him to try her out, but he's really just convinced that she's simply broken. He wouldn't try her out. I switched to Sheik and then Mewtwo to show that I wasn't a one-trick pony with only Zelda, and I won with them. So there's little I can do now, but with this advice, I may be able to get him to try Zelda out for the sole purpose of knowing the character from the inside, as you suggested. It'll be a bit more of a challenge, which I do enjoy. We're still in a battle between who can be better at their main in melee, me with Sheik and him with Marth. If he follows your suggestion, though, in project M, it should be more balanced.

 

[drsusredfish]

@ Garde Noir I've already told him to try her out, but he's really just convinced that she's simply broken. He wouldn't try her out.

This would annoy me to no end.

 

[EmptySky00]

My Friend, who mains Lucas is absolutely convinced that Zelda is OP. In his defense, he hasn't beaten me yet, but I don't know how to explain to him that she's balanced. He says she's easy to pick up, and that anyone can use her, which is somewhat true, but also not at the same time. I don't know how to describe it. I'm still pretty new to this.
I feel your (plaural) pain. If they nerf her, I'll be sad.

I don't understand how being easy to pick up equates to being broken or is a legitimate balance complaint in the slightest. It shouldn't matter how easy a character is to pick up, you should be focusing on the match, not the practice your opponent had to put into it prior. None of that is relevant at all to how he's playing in the present.

People yo.

 

[Garde Noir]

I don't understand how being easy to pick up equates to being broken or is a legitimate balance complaint in the slightest. It shouldn't matter how easy a character is to pick up, you should be focusing on the match, not the practice your opponent had to put into it prior. None of that is relevant at all to how he's playing in the present.

People yo.

I can understand people saying that only because I've seen it.

But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about Zelda balance and match-up learning!

I no longer find match-up against fox to be a problem. In fact, they're a lot easier than Falco match-ups. Every Fox I go against charges in, and then I just Up-smash combo into Up-air on a small stage (as a lot of them like small stages) and I've 3 stocked every fox so far. Anyone else finding it this easy?

 

[ShadowGanon]

I can understand people saying that only because I've seen it.

But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about Zelda balance and match-up learning!

I no longer find match-up against fox to be a problem. In fact, they're a lot easier than Falco match-ups. Every Fox I go against charges in, and then I just Up-smash combo into Up-air on a small stage (as a lot of them like small stages) and I've 3 stocked every fox so far. Anyone else finding it this easy?

lol. @ DarkStarStorm . Point proven. #BoomRoasted

 

[DarkStarStorm]

lol. @ DarkStarStorm . Point proven. #BoomRoasted

Fox's need to play counter offenive to Zelda. Wait, kill dins, defeat teledash, bait Nayru's, combo. That's Zelda's weakeness.

Gentlemen! I present, the Diamond Dive!

 

[Garde Noir]

Fox's need to play counter offenive to Zelda. Wait, kill dins, defeat teledash, bait Nayru's, combo. That's Zelda's weakeness.

Gentlemen! I present, the Diamond Dive!

lol. @ DarkStarStorm . Point proven. #BoomRoasted

Just to make it clear, the reason it isn't hard is because all fox's play the same, and they're predictable and easy to punish.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Just to make it clear, the reason it isn't hard is because all fox's play the same, and they're predictable and easy to punish.

If they played it well then they would slaughter Zelda.

 

[TimeSmash]

Any advice on a Dr. Mario matchup? Those pills are killer.

 

[Garde Noir]

Any advice on a Dr. Mario matchup? Those pills are killer.

Nayru's to deflect them, so he's pressured not to use them

If they played it well then they would slaughter Zelda.

I trust you, as I assume I have yet to play a competent one. I was just stating what I aim for when I've battled them so far

 

[ShadowGanon]

Nayru's to deflect them, so he's pressured not to use them

I trust you, as I assume I have yet to play a competent one. I was just stating what I aim for when I've battled them so far

Well, he hasn't fought any (if at all) competent Foxs either. You know what, I know a guy you guys could fight... Hey, @ Kunichan , do you think you could fight these guys sometime? You're the only competent Fox that I can think of that plays wifi.

 

[Garde Noir]

Well, he hasn't fought any (if at all) competent Foxs either. You know what, I know a guy you guys could fight... Hey, @ Kunichan , do you think you could fight these guys sometime? You're the only competent Fox that I can think of that plays wifi.

I'd love to play a real fox!

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Any advice on a Dr. Mario matchup? Those pills are killer.

Teledash past them, all I can do. Mario I think is even with Zelda. So, good luck.

 

[Kunichan]

Well, he hasn't fought any (if at all) competent Foxs either. You know what, I know a guy you guys could fight... Hey, @ Kunichan , do you think you could fight these guys sometime? You're the only competent Fox that I can think of that plays wifi.

Oh man the pressure iss reeeaalll! But thanks dude I really appreciate the shoutout lol I could recommend a few other Spacie players if ya'll were interested. Some good Falco's I've played are @Tails_Glados_Puff , @JDavisR (NIX) and Fox's i'd say @jaedong and @Mattchu have pretty decent Fox's even though they don't main him. There's also this on Fox I played @Bearedman8 , who has an incredibly well rounded technical Fox, but unfortunately I don't believe he's able to play until he's home from college.

I'd love to play a real fox!

I'd love to play you dude! But I won't be able to till Thursday so I'll make sure to let you know when I get on.
Just a heads up, I literally have zero knowledge on how the Zelda/Fox MU goes so it'll give me a few games to figure it out. Lol I'll throw every trick up my sleeve at you and hopefully we'll have some good games!

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Oh man the pressure iss reeeaalll! But thanks dude I really appreciate the shoutout lol I could recommend a few other Spacie players if ya'll were interested. Some good Falco's I've played are @Tails_Glados_Puff , @JDavisR (NIX) and Fox's i'd say @jaedong and @Mattchu have pretty decent Fox's even though they don't main him. There's also this on Fox I played @Bearedman8 , who has an incredibly well rounded technical Fox, but unfortunately I don't believe he's able to play until he's home from college.


I'd love to play you dude! But I won't be able to till Thursday so I'll make sure to let you know when I get on.
Just a heads up, I literally have zero knowledge on how the Zelda/Fox MU goes so it'll give me a few games to figure it out. Lol I'll throw every trick up my sleeve at you and hopefully we'll have some good games!

Zelda is a counter-offensive character, eliminate those options by camp-killing dins with nair. Punish the telegame with nair (up smash at high percent). Punish Diamond Diving with up-smash/up air. Be careful with up-throw, up air combos when she's at high percent, she might Diamond Dive/FFL Nayru's.

 

[Kunichan]

Zelda is a counter-offensive character, eliminate those options by camp-killing dins with nair. Punish the telegame with nair (up smash at high percent). Punish Diamond Diving with up-smash/up air. Be careful with up-throw, up air combos when she's at high percent, she might Diamond Dive/FFL Nayru's.

Thanks DSS, i'm gonna watch your video and learn up some Zelda stuff lol and thanks for the nair to kill dins fire info I appreciate it.
I noticed when I played against Mewtwo's, they usually have similar area's they like teleport to when they're on stage, in order to get back into neutral. But it's so predictable and short that it can be covered.
Compared to Zelda, are there scenarios where I should be expecting a tele? Should I just stay in shield whenever she teleports and just shine oos if she's in range?

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Thanks DSS, i'm gonna watch your video and learn up some Zelda stuff lol and thanks for the nair to kill dins fire info I appreciate it.
I noticed when I played against Mewtwo's, they usually have similar area's they like teleport to when they're on stage, in order to get back into neutral. But it's so predictable and short that it can be covered.
Compared to Zelda, are there scenarios where I should be expecting a tele? Should I just stay in shield whenever she teleports and just shine oos if she's in range?

Never be in your shield when she teleports! She'll just grab you or anything you, best place to be when she teleports is in the air. One hop is enough, don't come in from above because she has a 50-80 damage up-smash combo on you. If you defeat din she'll go in for the teledash, if you defeat the teledash she'll use dins. If one thing fails expect another. Never go to Battlefield, always try to go to a semi-flat stage. If she goes normal-type on you, expect after she tries to SH bair you that she'll follow up with a LCed Nayru's, it's very safe. Or she'll do another bair. This can't happen with fair. She can do a SH double fair but just jump after the first one and nair. Fox's biggest fear is that she goes normal-type on you. She has combos like a boss so be very careful and don't invest to much.

 

[ShadowGanon]

Thanks DSS, i'm gonna watch your video and learn up some Zelda stuff lol and thanks for the nair to kill dins fire info I appreciate it.
I noticed when I played against Mewtwo's, they usually have similar area's they like teleport to when they're on stage, in order to get back into neutral. But it's so predictable and short that it can be covered.
Compared to Zelda, are there scenarios where I should be expecting a tele? Should I just stay in shield whenever she teleports and just shine oos if she's in range?

Actually, for Fox, it's not a bad idea to go Battlefield. The platforms help stop the u-throw/u-smash combos. I just normally don't go there because most Zeldas feel pretty comfortable there. Whatever you do, DON'T GO TO FINAL DESTINATION OR SMASHVILLE AS FOX. One grab and you're dead. Oh, and watch out for Nayru's Love in general. There are a lot of things that Zeldas can do with it and they like to use it when they feel pressured (panic button).

 

[Kunichan]

Actually, for Fox, it's not a bad idea to go Battlefield. The platforms help stop the u-throw/u-smash combos. I just normally don't go there because most Zeldas feel pretty comfortable there. Whatever you do, DON'T GO TO FINAL DESTINATION OR SMASHVILLE AS FOX. One grab and you're dead. Oh, and watch out for Nayru's Love in general. There are a lot of things that Zeldas can do with it and they like to use it when they feel pressured (panic button).

What percent can Fox shine / jump out of her chaingrab @ DarkStarStorm ? or does it not matter because she can get a kill move off before i'm able to do anything? ughh this MU sounds just as bad as Fox vs Pika :'[[[

 

[ShadowGanon]

What percent can Fox shine / jump out of her chaingrab @ DarkStarStorm ? or does it not matter because she can get a kill move off before i'm able to do anything? ughh this MU sounds just as bad as Fox vs Pika :'[[[

Umm.... You might just want to go somewhere with a lot of platforms. Because I don't think you'll be escaping the u-throw/u-smash chains...

 

[Garde Noir]

What percent can Fox shine / jump out of her chaingrab @ DarkStarStorm ? or does it not matter because she can get a kill move off before i'm able to do anything? ughh this MU sounds just as bad as Fox vs Pika :'[[[

as a lovable pika player, it does my heart good to know this matchup is just as terrifying