Zelda Balance and MU Learning

[drsusredfish]

i played a new test version of zelda.

it was amazing. felt much more like zelda and much less like DBZ

What they do to teleport

 

[drsusredfish]

Your din idea

Your idea is pretty much the way snake plays with his c4 in that he can dorp the c4 then then quickly detonate it then quickly react out of the detonation animation. Also the sped up casting animation is reminiscent of demo 1 Zelda if not that a middle ground between current casting speed and demo 1 casting speed. while that does sound tempting wouldn't this make zelda want to spam more dins like in demo 1? except now the dins have a long lasting hit box.

I mean the casting is faster i react out of my animation faster and detonate the dins whenever i want while at the same time placing another one. Id just throw a din teleport to that din then throw another one. the explosion would protect my already short casting time and give me another din to teleport to. that sounds like a worse problem than the current dins and gives her more options to run and spam.

 

[CyberZixx]

i played a new test version of zelda.

it was amazing. felt much more like zelda and much less like DBZ

Are you a PMBR tester now? So I guess this confirms that Zelda is indeed changing. How much are you able to say?

 

[Zerudahime]

i played a new test version of zelda.

it was amazing. felt much more like zelda and much less like DBZ

lol.

 

[BJN39]

i played a new test version of zelda.

it was amazing. felt much more like zelda and much less like DBZ

You mean unviable besides 3 moves?

Honestly, if you're gonna say something like that, then give us a little tease of the changes. > _ >

 

[otheusrex]

Your idea is pretty much the way snake plays with his c4 in that he can dorp the c4 then then quickly detonate it then quickly react out of the detonation animation. Also the sped up casting animation is reminiscent of demo 1 Zelda if not that a middle ground between current casting speed and demo 1 casting speed. while that does sound tempting wouldn't this make zelda want to spam more dins like in demo 1? except now the dins have a long lasting hit box.

I mean the casting is faster i react out of my animation faster and detonate the dins whenever i want while at the same time placing another one. Id just throw a din teleport to that din then throw another one. the explosion would protect my already short casting time and give me another din to teleport to. that sounds like a worse problem than the current dins and gives her more options to run and spam.

Maybe, i wonder about this too, but if it were possible to spam dins this way, it doesn't mean a zelda would want to do that for the whole match, or that a quick acting opponent couldn't stop her by either punishing her casting a dins at short range, or clanking the dins. Also, a lot of characters can hang back and spam projectiles relatively safely, and while some people do from time to time, it's not the most efficient way to win so you see more people shooting out a few projectiles and then trying to capitalize on the situation. Back when the land cancel of nayru's love was a little faster, I saw Zhime spam the move doing nothing but land cancel nayru's and grounded nayru's just to be snarky cause someone complained about the move during the match. The move functioned well enough to reward spamming it this way, but obviously in real play, zhime only used land cancel nayru as a tool to a means like starting a combo into an edge guard. I think my dins idea would be similar, except punishing the casting start up or clanking the mines are far more intuitive ways to deal with dins fire than figuring out where and what angle you need to punish nayru's love. Plus, 30 frames is much much quicker than 83 frames, but still long enough to be very risky if you're opponent is near you, so the casting time would still be punishable, while the 19 frame detonation is just the soonest time someone could detonate it by just throwing out a dins anywhere. Most of the time a zelda is going to take a bit longer to place the new dins just where they want it, which gives people even more time to clank. Finally, 19 frames is still pretty unsafe to wait for a hitbox at short range, and since the explosion is only going to be 1.5 times the size of the mine, an opponent who's in danger of the explosion in neutral would always have ample time to clank the mine. If anything, the detonation might be in need of being a little sooner during the casting animation.

...anyways, after I compared the new dins idea to the old nayru land cancel, it made me realize that being completely fair and well designed wouldn't keep the move from being hated. People seem to have a real issue with moves that function really well without obvious weaknesses (although, like I said, clanking the mines is pretty obvious and not that risky to do)

 

[drsusredfish]

Maybe, i wonder about this too, but if it were possible to spam dins this way, it doesn't mean a zelda would want to do that for the whole match, or that a quick acting opponent couldn't stop her by either punishing her casting a dins at short range, or clanking the dins. Also, a lot of characters can hang back and spam projectiles relatively safely, and while some people do from time to time, it's not the most efficient way to win so you see more people shooting out a few projectiles and then trying to capitalize on the situation.

The way you are describing the balance of your din idea is the balance the current dins has already. the main difference, and problem, is the opponent will have a harder time punishing zelda since she can move quicker.

Back when the land cancel of nayru's love was a little faster, I saw Zhime spam the move doing nothing but land cancel nayru's and grounded nayru's just to be snarky cause someone complained about the move during the match. The move functioned well enough to reward spamming it this way, but obviously in real play, zhime only used land cancel nayru as a tool to a means like starting a combo into an edge guard. I think my dins idea would be similar, except punishing the casting start up or clanking the mines are far more intuitive ways to deal with dins fire than figuring out where and what angle you need to punish nayru's love.

so your're saying you want dins to be as spamable and combo friendly as a land canceled nayru? So i assume that means you'd take away the utility of land canceled nayru so she won't have two ways to spam you into a combo. If thats not what you want to do then you just made zelda OP. If that is what you want to do you just made her nayru game into a melee nayru game which is just bad.

Plus, 30 frames is much much quicker than 83 frames, but still long enough to be very risky if you're opponent is near you, so the casting time would still be punishable, while the 19 frame detonation is just the soonest time someone could detonate it by just throwing out a dins anywhere. Most of the time a zelda is going to take a bit longer to place the new dins just where they want it, which gives people even more time to clank.

If its still risky to use while the opponent is near you then...use it when they are not near you. She has alot more tools than din. "Most of the time a zelda is going to take a bit longer to place the new dins just where they want it" You say that like thats the main thing the zelda is going to do. If i can get free damage from you not trying to hit me ima go for the free damage and just have a small din created while i'm at it.

...anyways, after I compared the new dins idea to the old nayru land cancel, it made me realize that being completely fair and well designed wouldn't keep the move from being hated. People seem to have a real issue with moves that function really well without obvious weaknesses (although, like I said, clanking the mines is pretty obvious and not that risky to do)

Clanking your dins is alot more risky than clanking the current dins since i control the detonation. I can either come right at you and make you decide whether to deal with zelda or the din or i can just detonate the din while seting another din then come at you again. In The time it takes the opponent to decide what to do with the din zelda can already be doing somthing else.

Finally, 19 frames is still pretty unsafe to wait for a hit box at short range, and since the explosion is only going to be 1.5 times the size of the mine, an opponent who's in danger of the explosion in neutral would always have ample time to clank the mine. If anything, the detonation might be in need of being a little sooner during the casting animation.

If zelda players, my self include, found a way to make 83 frames of casting time safe its going to be over powering if i only have to deal with 30 frames of casting time. then instead of a minimum 160 frames till detonation you're going to change it to a minimum 19 frames detonation and its my choice to detonate. that's the biggest buff I've ever seen. sure they wont KO but the damage would still be significant. You're thinking of making dins a close range move by making it that fast but Just because the zelda can use it at close range doesn't mean she has too or should. The current zelda has to use it long range or in a situation where the opponent is occupied with something else. zelda is not made to be a close range fighter. You'd have to change more than dins if you go this closer range fighting direction. And drastic changes aren't warranted right now given her placing and use in tourneys.

 

[Deleted member]

The version I played was like melee Zelda but was't completed. Here's what I asked them to buff as a test start:

- weight increased to match mewtwo
- run speed increased to match luigi
- able to act slightly sooner out of upthrow

I was looking for creative ways that could increase her offensive capability so she doesn't get camped out as hard, and i think being able to close ground and have a better CC grab is going to go a long way. I'm not a PMBR tester but I'd still like to respect their policy of privacy so I'm not putting anything specific from the version I played. That said, just on general feel when I played her she was basically just a more buffed and fluid melee zelda. I had no problems getting in on talented players. It just felt good.

 

[drsusredfish]

Melee zelda. Sooo possibly no multy din no land canceled nayru, you already said less DBZ like, so no teleport cancels?

 

[Deleted member]

i asked about the possibility of changing din's and i was told it pretty much isn't going to happen. mostly because it would be a PR nightmare. i'm not certain on it but my guess would be that din's gets little or no changes.

 

[jtm94]

I think the PMBR is too much of a vacuum.

And I am really sad to see no changes to Dins, but I do like upthrow.

We'll be playing whatever they give us, so letsa go!

 

[drsusredfish]

Forget dins I want my teleports . but really I like that they are keeping them the same but not at the cost of the teleports.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Hey guys Im trying to create an updated tier list since Apex and 3.0 being out for 2 months, I am putting in tourny results as before and trying to make a community tier list that reflects the most recent of opinions so if you guys could help and vote in the survey thatd be great! Im posting in a lot of threads so there can be more more opinions as that will reflect more accurately so please vote!

The first one has you rank each character individually 1-41, I arranged it to what I think so it can be easier but itll still take a little time.
<a href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GDPZ53B">Click here to take survey</a>

If you dont care as much and/or dont wanna spend as much time then this one is just rankings based on tier.
<a href="https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GD3NDM9">Click here to take survey</a>

Please dont just destroy it with joke rankings. Thanks!

 

[otheusrex]

The way you are describing the balance of your din idea is the balance the current dins has already. the main difference, and problem, is the opponent will have a harder time punishing zelda since she can move quicker.

Yup, they will

So i assume that means you'd take away the utility of land canceled nayru so she won't have two ways to spam you into a combo. If thats not what you want to do then you just made zelda OP. If that is what you want to do you just made her nayru game into a melee nayru game which is just bad.

Yes, I would change or even take away how land cancel nayru because I agree it would be overpowering with this din's buff. I've also just always hated the idea of nayru being used to attack. I'd rather have nayru just be a safer way of avoiding attacks and reflecting projectiles than it was in melee.

If its still risky to use while the opponent is near you then...use it when they are not near you. She has alot more tools than din. "Most of the time a zelda is going to take a bit longer to place the new dins just where they want it" You say that like thats the main thing the zelda is going to do. If i can get free damage from you not trying to hit me ima go for the free damage and just have a small din created while i'm at it.

It's not free damage. Any novice player can easily attack someone who's starting a move that comes out on frame 19. If they couldn't reach and clank the dins before frame 19, then they weren't close enough to be hit by the explosion anyways. The detonation mechanic wouldn't really work in neutral because of this, but would be more for extending combos and catching someone who's off their guard.

Also, I resist the idea that for a move to be balanced, it needs to have an immediate way to circumvent it's utility. Being able to camp with this move is suppose to give Zelda a way to go even with players like m2k who will laser camp all day because it's the safe thing to do. It would do this by either hitting the opponent with the explosion, or placing another dins in the same vicinity. Thus, in this situation, it's utility would be real and indisputable. The way for the opponent to deal with it would be to weave through the projectiles she's firing and place yourself in a position to punish her if she does it again.

Clanking your dins is alot more risky than clanking the current dins since i control the detonation. I can either come right at you and make you decide whether to deal with zelda or the din or i can just detonate the din while seting another din then come at you again. In The time it takes the opponent to decide what to do with the din zelda can already be doing somthing else.

You're right it would be more risky to clank the new dins, that's my intent. Sure it's riskier to clank, but that's a fair reward for giving up the ability to control so much space with 3 dins, you'd want the one that she has to be more reliable for her to use. Also, you make it sound like spamming the dins would give her all options at once but that wouldn't be the case. For me to come at you after placing a dins, I'm giving up the ability to detonate the dins, whereas if I decide to catch you with the explosion, then I've given up the ability to move for another 30 frames.

You're thinking of making dins a close range move by making it that fast.... ...The current zelda has to use it long range or in a situation where the opponent is occupied with something else. zelda is not made to be a close range fighter. You'd have to change more than dins if you go this closer range fighting direction. And drastic changes aren't warranted right now given her placing and use in tourneys.

Like I said, the amount of frames total for the move would be a very fine line between too fast and too slow, so maybe it should be a little more, maybe not. Even so, 30 frames does not by any means make it a close range or even a medium range move. Look at Farore's Wind, you don't disappear until frame 33 and it's terribly unsafe to start a teleport if your opponent is anywhere near you. The only reason why you can teleport at close range sometimes is by hitting them with the start up hitbox, which is frame 8. The new dins would come out soonest on frame 20, and would be very disjointed from her, which would leave her more open than she is for teleports now.

But you're right about it calling for some more drastic changes to go a long with this idea, but I've always been open to that. I'm unhappy with nayru, her normals and smashes look cool but her poor mobility limits the way they can be used, her throws aren't all that rewarding for how risky and difficult it is to grab, and her punish game is too polarizing in regards to the skill of your opponent, i.e. she destroys newbies to the point of it being unfair and unfun for both players, whereas in high level play and equal mu knowledge she has so many weaknesses to every move and attribute that it's horribly unfair and frustrating.

So, Ideally, what I want is a smoother difficulty curve for zelda, with a better and more versatile combo game made possible through the use of dins and teleport and grabs, warranting a less urgently powerful buffet of kill moves. And as far as drastic changes go, it's already apparent that she's in for an overhaul.

 

[Zerudahime]

lmfao. If you think the dins PR changes are a concern then NOBODY has any idea what they are dealing with.

hence the resignation.

Thats all I am going to say about this entire situation.

I wished them luck, just as I wish the best of you luck with zelda in the future. Creative design decisions were the reason for my departure from the pmbr, but regardless of the outcome I will absolutely hold true to that.

 

[Squii The Fish]

Been reading this thread, not sure how to feel about the proposed Zelda changes. Could be good, but I think I have to play the new version first to really form a opinion though.

lmfao. If you think the dins PR changes are a concern then NOBODY has any idea what they are dealing with.

hence the resignation.

Thats all I am going to say about this entire situation.

I wished them luck, just as I wish the best of you luck with zelda in the future. Creative design decisions were the reason for my departure from the pmbr, but regardless of the outcome I will absolutely hold true to that.

This may be a silly question but if the new version comes out will you still be attending P:M tournaments? Not like I enjoy watching your zelda matches.... or anything... Baka.

#NoHomo #StealingYourDinSetups

 

[jtm94]

If they really take away Wavedashing out of Teleport I'm gonna be kinda salty. I don't see why they would because she can't even react out of it instantaneously like Mewtwo for example. And she's limited to the ground.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

The version I played was like melee Zelda but was't completed. Here's what I asked them to buff as a test start:

- weight increased to match mewtwo
- run speed increased to match luigi
- able to act slightly sooner out of upthrow

I was looking for creative ways that could increase her offensive capability so she doesn't get camped out as hard, and i think being able to close ground and have a better CC grab is going to go a long way. I'm not a PMBR tester but I'd still like to respect their policy of privacy so I'm not putting anything specific from the version I played. That said, just on general feel when I played her she was basically just a more buffed and fluid melee zelda. I had no problems getting in on talented players. It just felt good.

Melee Zelda was considered a disaster by most though. This is really concerning.

 

[Pika_thunder]

Melee Zelda was considered a disaster by most though. This is really concerning.

Not most, ALL.


Those who played her were just detirmined and the people changing her back/ needing her are ruining her.

 

[jtm94]

Umbreon said his appeal to Melee Zelda was that she was so bad you couldn't feel bad about anything that she did, but he said it as if playing PM Zelda instills guilt in those who use her because she is significantly better.

Maybe the current issue is something along the lines of a few moves are REALLY good, but the character as a whole isn't that decent. While we should strive towards a character who has a lot of very decent moves, that add up to a greater whole.

Or I could be completely wrong and nothing matters and our character is doomed.

 

[Squii The Fish]

Umbreon said his appeal to Melee Zelda was that she was so bad you couldn't feel bad about anything that she did, but he said it as if playing PM Zelda instills guilt in those who use her because she is significantly better.

Maybe the current issue is something along the lines of a few moves are REALLY good, but the character as a whole isn't that decent. While we should strive towards a character who has a lot of very decent moves, that add up to a greater whole.

Or I could be completely wrong and nothing matters and our character is doomed.

Well we all have our own opinions here but I feel as if she is fine in her current form, sure i would like some more options as far as infiltrating the opponent goes but I feel she is a balanced character that destroys new players and has a tough time getting around experienced ones. Honestly I am fine with that.

I feel the P:M community should let the community develop her playstyle and metagame before scrapping this zelda completely.

 

[jtm94]

You could also view it as changing her before it is too late.

I would rather change her now than postpone imminent changes, but that is assuming changes are in fact needed, which may not be the case.

All I'm trying to say is I'd rather them change her sooner than later if they plan to.

 

[Pika_thunder]

No changes, please god no!

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Well we all have our own opinions here but I feel as if she is fine in her current form, sure i would like some more options as far as infiltrating the opponent goes but I feel she is a balanced character that destroys new players and has a tough time getting around experienced ones. Honestly I am fine with that.

I feel the P:M community should let the community develop her playstyle and metagame before scrapping this zelda completely.

I am in full agreement with this, and I think you have a very accurate picture of her currently. She has to work HARD to be played at a competitive level but she can be very successful. I hope the PMBR doesn't actually intend to redesign her as I feel we would be losing a very fun and interesting character. Even with some of the elements people complain about she is still not considered top tier by a lot of the community (as best I can tell), and reliable, universal options to counter them exist. Most of the people who have posted in this thread have expressed they are perfectly happy with how she currently is including Zeldas (including people who faced Zhime at a competitive level and feel she is fine).

 

[Deleted member]

To clarify, most people are NOT fine with the current Zelda. My only aim is to make her MORE viable and LESS gimmicky.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

To clarify, most people are NOT fine with the current Zelda. My only aim is to make her MORE viable and LESS gimmicky.

Umbreon, I was only pointing out that I noticed most people that have posted in this thread have said they are fine with the current Zelda. That's not to say there weren't any recommendations as well from some of those people. Many people HAVE expressed that moves that have been considered gimmicky are in fact not. That is really going to come down to people's opinion. Since she is not a replica of her melee form, there is going to be lots of differences in opinion on that. I also pointed out that most people who played Zhime at the competitive level expressed that Zelda was the fine. In fact there was only one exception unless I missed something. I appreciate you wanting to act in Zelda's best interest and that is all I am trying to do as well. My main suggestion was just to give her more time as opposed to rushing to some redesign when there is clearly a large number of people who feel she is fine. The main concern that I generally hear is that she will become weaker in time. The only way to actually know that is to actually give her more time. At this point in time she can't be justified as OP as there isn't substantial evidence tournament wise (I know you feel she needs buffs), as well as many competitive players not having a problem with her supposed gimmicks, and there is evidence to suggest she can function fine as demonstrated by Zhime. No one at this point in time can know for sure if she does need buffs. Once again, that is why I am proposing we give her some more time before concluding she needs changes.

 

[Pika_thunder]

To clarify, most people are NOT fine with the current Zelda. My only aim is to make her MORE viable and LESS gimmicky.

Most people are not fine with the current fox in my experience. And I love my gimmicks!

I feel the P:M community should let the community develop her playstyle and metagame before scrapping this zelda completely.

Listen to this, time heals all wounds. Maybe even butthurt.

Just learn the matchup, you're all *****es

Thank god. Some advice everyone should follow! If you (PMBR) are changing her drastically, RUN THE CHANGES BY THE (Zelda) COMMUNITY! Not that she needs changes any way... it's just that any one change could tear the character and the community and the metagame apart. If Zelda gets nerfed/ changed to be a different character, I might quit PM (until final release) because drastically changing someone's character is seriously stupid. Like brawl stupid. An example I would like to use for what this would be like is Falco in brawl. He was still top tier. He was still good, but he felt and played different! So the community from melee hated him. Same with many melee characters in brawl, still good, but they felt off. And that's exactly what you will do to the zelda.

lmfao. If you think the dins PR changes are a concern then NOBODY has any idea what they are dealing with.

You better be bullsh*tting me. If you are trolling me... STAHP!
It hurts my feelings.

If you implement such drastic changes.... I will lay down and try not to cry, then cry a lot.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't disagree with your stance, per se, but I don't agree with it either. I don't think that Zelda's viability is an issue. I think the original 3.0 zelda with no teleport cancel and melee nayru's/kicks is still quite viable. The issue with Zelda is unlike prior problem characters because it's not that people hate her for being too good, people hate her because they hate her design (and by extension, interacting with her, i.e. playing against her). You don't want to have 1 character that everyone hates and 40 that are fine. Giving the character more time might raise/lower her viability but it won't make anyone hate her less.

And to be clear, I think Fox is a little silly too.

 

[jtm94]

I don't think the teleport cancel needs to be taken away at all. That's all I have to say, and if anyone is asked about it, it will not be what is most complained about or hated.

 

[otheusrex]

Umbreon said his appeal to Melee Zelda was that she was so bad you couldn't feel bad about anything that she did, but he said it as if playing PM Zelda instills guilt in those who use her because she is significantly better.

These are my thoughts, stop stealing them from my brain, it's creepy!

Part of what I liked about playing zelda in melee is that she was such an underdog and it was obvious so people routed for you. But now, I feel that she's secretly at a disadvantage, so you have to work really hard and play amazing to win at top level play but people hate you cause they've seen the zelda punish game **** so many low level players. That's probably not what other people are thinking, but it's what I feel inside. I can't take pride in my wins cause I know I got them because my opponent made mistakes, and if I'm destroying the opponent, then it's cause they suck and it's a walk in the park to punish bad players with zelda for me. I hear the people I'm beating complain about her moves being too powerful, or unconventional and there's no easy retort to that. I want to argue but technically they're right that she has abnormally good properties to her moves, and it's just too complicated to explain why she still sucks and needs them to win. This is just my own experience with myself and the other smash players in my group. I don't find her very fun to play when I'm always walking that thin line between OP and disadvantaged, and I'm very sure most of the group doesn't find her fun to play against either, even though they're nice enough to not complain too much about her around me.

Maybe the current issue is something along the lines of a few moves are REALLY good, but the character as a whole isn't that decent. While we should strive towards a character who has a lot of very decent moves, that add up to a greater whole.

This is kinda like what I've been saying about how she's a character with crappy capabilities and awesome moves. If she had some better general capabilities, then it wouldn't be so dire that all her attacks remain so good; we could afford to pick and choose what moves remain as powerful and what ones get nerfed.

Also, I think it's a distinct possibility that the pmbr will create a more normalized zelda that isn't very good, and that they might just fall back on the current zelda. And if they create a normalized zelda that's good, then we still win. I'd rather they take the chance to explore new options before the game is finalized than just leave her how she is never knowing if she's already optimized or if there's something better.

I really do have faith that the pmbr wants to create a good zelda even if it's not what I envision for her, and I'm willing to wait through a build or two for them to perfect their idea before I judge whether it's better or worse than the current one. I also have faith that whatever happens, the pmbr will not finalize pm with a zelda that they aren't proud of.

 

[the_irish_dude]

what i would like to know is what part of zeldas current body of work is something that, when you look at it...makes you say "hey we need to change this cuz its just not working out"

 

[TimeSmash]

When is PM's plan to go gold anyway? If Zelda gets changed once, it could happen again in following updates

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I don't disagree with your stance, per se, but I don't agree with it either. I don't think that Zelda's viability is an issue. I think the original 3.0 zelda with no teleport cancel and melee nayru's/kicks is still quite viable. The issue with Zelda is unlike prior problem characters because it's not that people hate her for being too good, people hate her because they hate her design (and by extension, interacting with her, i.e. playing against her). You don't want to have 1 character that everyone hates and 40 that are fine. Giving the character more time might raise/lower her viability but it won't make anyone hate her less.

And to be clear, I think Fox is a little silly too.

I understand what you are saying about hating the design rather than hating her being too good. I personally like the design because I feel it adds more variety to the game and more depth but I realize people are going to have mixed emotions on this topic. How do we know though that so many people actually hate her? I mean I've heard small talk about it but I think we would want to be sure that that is indeed the case before we would act upon such a notion for working with her design, you know? I mean take this thread for example. There has been far more favorable comments about her than negative. I do realize the post is in the Zelda threads so that could be a factor but it does have quite a few views already. I would think that if there were that many people who have a problem with her for any reason they would be more vocal about it. Just some stuff to consider.

 

[Deleted member]

I'll be pissed if they get rid of her teleport cancel. Like, super pissed. Don't do it.

I've always been open to changes that are meant to make her a more effective character overall. The concern I have is people who don't really give two sh*ts about the character having an influence on how she plays. All this ******** about her terrible design is mostly coming from people who haven't put a significant amount of time into the character and probably never will.

We're already at version 3.0. The PMBR had better do an incredible job if they plan on changing her this late in the game, and they need to do it in a way that won't alienate her current mains.

 

[JCOnyx]

Hearing this news is extremely depressing. I know a couple people who would probably just stop playing if something this drastic change occurred to Zelda after all this time. Probably my girl most likely, and she only plays PM with me because it's the only one she enjoys anymore (FYI Zelda sucks in everything else). I hope you really, REALLY think about how these changes will impact those who came in around the 2.0 time period who have invested an enormous amount of time and patience in learning the character. Hell, the changes from her older design were warranted, but completely changing everything the they've done to Zelda would just be stupid. Plain and simple.

If this is seriously just because of all of the flack she's been getting from people who don't have the match-up knowledge to tackle her or are just plain haters then I'm sure there are a couple other characters that should be getting this sort of treatment (cough *furries* cough).

I'm really not happy to hear about this, I don't even main her and have a blast playing against her. Chill out people.

 

[Squii The Fish]

what i would like to know is what part of zeldas current body of work is something that, when you look at it...makes you say "hey we need to change this cuz its just not working out"

I cannot speak for everyone here obviously.

Well despite having a teleport-cancel I often have to work around Zelda's movement and how its bodes with her attacks, trying to use side-tilt or up-tilt while managing movement (disregarding OTG's, wake-up and punishes) can be a bit difficult aside from using them out of Tele-cancels, and neutral A links. She really doesn't move or behave like much of the project M roster. Her game is more of a effort to control the opponents zoning options while having the ability to inflict heavy damage up close.

Fighting zelda without having any match-up knowledge can be quite brutal, a big part of her playstyle revolves around din traps and the fact that Nayru can be both used offensively and defensively throws many players off. I remember watching Zhime vs Chillan and it was like watching the Seahawks vs The Broncos, zelda DESTROYED wolf.

However higher tier players can cause trouble for many problems for zelda and reveal her vulnerable movement speed, the start up on teleport, and can outsmart the dins and fair/bair game. For high level play Zelda CANNOT be gimmicky or else she gets predictable, you have to play every match-up smart because her vulnerabilities do shine through.

I actually think this is more then ok. You do have to work at controlling your opponents despite the tools you have been given and yes some of them are way sharper then others. I do not share the opinion that this needs to fixed, she offers a interesting playstyle that makes the player work at both a up-close and ranged game while having some flaws and yes that can come off as gimmicky-easy-mode at times. Ce la vie.

3'000 edit because im tired and hate spelling errors:
In regards to what I would change irish_dude (sorry didn't mean to dodge that second part of your question) I really wouldn't change much. I just wish teleport cancelling would give a little push to zelda's momentum so I could jump and have a better chance of Dair-ing them, because I like Dair. And because I like it so much it leaves me oh so horribly vulnerable. But I don't care, because Dair-ing feels good mang.

These are my thoughts, stop stealing them from my brain, it's creepy!

Part of what I liked about playing zelda in melee is that she was such an underdog and it was obvious so people routed for you. But now, I feel that she's secretly at a disadvantage, so you have to work really hard and play amazing to win at top level play but people hate you cause they've seen the zelda punish game **** so many low level players. That's probably not what other people are thinking, but it's what I feel inside. I can't take pride in my wins cause I know I got them because my opponent made mistakes, and if I'm destroying the opponent, then it's cause they suck and it's a walk in the park to punish bad players with zelda for me. I hear the people I'm beating complain about her moves being too powerful, or unconventional and there's no easy retort to that. I want to argue but technically they're right that she has abnormally good properties to her moves, and it's just too complicated to explain why she still sucks and needs them to win. This is just my own experience with myself and the other smash players in my group. I don't find her very fun to play when I'm always walking that thin line between OP and disadvantaged, and I'm very sure most of the group doesn't find her fun to play against either, even though they're nice enough to not complain too much about her around me.

I can understand where your coming from. I do. Maybe its just the level I am (I am KNOWHERE near the top or ever relevant players please do mistake me for that) or the competition around me but for me I feel zelda is the most rewarding when working around her frame cool down and terrible movement.

I personally did not like the Zelda in melee. It wasn't bad, I just wasn't feeling it. Brawl is when I actually started maining the girl and she felt the fun to me, P:M simply extended that and I enjoy her current build.

 

[Deleted member]

Just some stuff to consider.

Man you are alarmingly well-spoken. And convincing. Personally I think we need to test a lot of stuff out to see what combination of items works best. I admit that my ideas are experimental, but I would still rather have the character be done properly than not at all. My personal stance on melee Zelda is that she's a flawed character. I do not want to see Zelda end up like Mewtwo where she's improved but none of her key weaknesses are really addressed. But I also don't like the idea of using extra strengths to counteract a flawed design (Nayru's).

 

[the_irish_dude]

@sqii that was my point...any character can be difficult till you "learn the matchup" if anything i feel she needs a buff on ground speed and thats it. once players learn how to punish zelda (after a few matches of playing her) then the whole game is turned around and it becomes a long cat and mouse game. its not like she is this character who is top tier.


regardless tho...unless the next zelda comes out and her movements are improved and not nerfed as it seems the consensus is...i will be disappointed. ive been disappointed only once by pmbr so far.. and that was the ICs. lets just hope.

 

[StarshipGroove]

You don't want to have 1 character that everyone hates and 40 that are fine. Giving the character more time might raise/lower her viability but it won't make anyone hate her less.

I think this makes the game way more hype actually. The role of a heel in wrestling is that of a villain, opposed by the crowd favorite character. The heel employs dirty tactics and plays to his/her own beat, in order to take the heat and in turn hype the crowd waiting for the heel's defeat.

Zelda is like a wrestling villain in Project M, she fights dirty, she is the character you love to hate. She is the one you want to see LOSE.
People at tournaments would be cheering for the non-Zelda player, holler when Zelda gets down a stock, hold in their breaths when the high ranked Zelda player punishes the other guy's mistake.

It also fits her character. She's a unapproachable stone cold queen in TP and she's the same in this game. If someone tries to combo her royal ass, she will be all like "don't touch me you filthy peasant" and take flight surrounded by a beautiful sparkling maelstrom of blue crystals

 

[the_irish_dude]

her blue crystals give a whole new meaning to PMsing