Zelda and Sheik - a relation with a troubled past. Can it be saved?

[Fawriel]

Since there seems to be no topic about this yet, I'll go ahead and start it.

In Super Smash Bros. Melee...
Zelda was said to be a powerful, defensive KO character.
Sheik was said to be her quick, damage-dealing combo-racker.


But for some reason, Sheik got all the power and then some, and Zelda got nothing except for two unreliable KO moves. What happened there? Apparently Sakurai couldn't figure out how to properly make them rely on each other... or how to properly make them independent enough.

So now that Sheik is back, let's try to do what he wasn't able to before, keeping in our hearts the hope that he shall do better this time.

In Brawl, we have such diverse characters as Metaknight, with extreme combos and very few KO moves, and Ike, who has only killers.

So how should Zelda and Sheik be designed now?
Should they rely on one another? Should they be independent? How much of both worlds should both incorporate?

There's a lot to be taken into account there, so I think this topic has a lot of potential for discussion.

I'll go ahead and quote these posts from another topic to kick it off:

One can hope that Sheik is nerfed into the role that she was allegedly intended for: combos.
If Sakurai actually manages to focus his ADHD mind on such a clean division of roles this time, making Zelda the KO character, there are some things to discuss:

HOW should Zelda be improved? You can make her an almost Ike-type character, except not as extreme, of course. She should be able to actually GET some KOs after all.
But then, how extreme should the division be? Should Zelda still have some combo potential to be able to stand on her own legs? Should her tilts be turned into combo moves so she can start two-hit combos into her new monstrous fsmash? Should her fair and bair be nerfed to allow/force a more varied style? And so on...

Ideally I would like the two of them to be equally good, powerful characters, but weaker/stronger than the other in certain situations. Making them truly interdependent on one another only serves to nerf them both where they can't do anything by themselves. One example of this being, Sheik has all the speed and combos but no KO power, Zelda has all the KO power but no speed, and thus no reliable way to land a KO against a fast character.

 

[Igneous42]

Sheik should be like Meta Knight, very few good KO moves.

 

[Melphyr]

It would be funny to see things reversed now! Sheik as a slow powerful ninja and Zelda as fast magic-combo user!!

Not that I see that happening...

 

[Cranberry Rogue]

Sheik is ridiculously fast, and doesn't look like she has a ton of brawn. It'd make more sense for Sheik to retain her combo-crazy moveset, but have her kill moves nerfed down. If you really want to make a kill, then you'd have to switch over to Zelda, who would have some slow'n'powerful magic attacks with some serious knockback.

That's the way I'd like it to be, anyway. I just don't see the point of having the secondary character dominate while primary character sits out on the sidelines. It'd be nice if they were each utilized.

 

[Fawriel]

Quick reply before I finally go study: Sheik should be similar to Young Link in Melee, with, like, one decent but slightly risky kill move. That would allow her to still get out of a pickle if your opponent has too much pressure on you to allow you to transform.
Similarly, Zelda needs combo starters. Her ftilt and utilt should be made much more powerful so they can KO, as they're not really good for anything right now. So make her dtilt a reliable combo starter. Same goes for Din's Fire, her nair and possibly dair while grounded. Otherwise, we'll see Zelda Ike'd.

 

[Urser]

Zelda really needs a buff up. She should have stronger, easier to control attacks, with great knockback. Sheik should mainly be used for moving around and escaping tight situations. Sheik should have her moves nerfed a bit though. They should be far less powerful than Zelda's and many other character's.

But if Sakurai really ended up making one character better overall, it should be Zelda. She IS the main character of the two.

But in my opinion, make them dependant on each other. It would show much more skill among the players who use her and stop this "SHEEK IZ BETTAR THAN ZELDAR"/"ZELDAR IS LEIK WAY BETTAR" nonsene.

 

[otter]

I'm down wih cranberry rogue.....The goal should be that you have to use both character.

 

[Wiseguy]

I say give Zelda's attacks great knockback but zero (I'm serious) damage and give Sheik attacks great damage but NO knockback at all.

 

[Tristan_win]

Wiseguy that's just plan crazy

What they need to do is to remove the invulnerably for transforming and cut the time down the transformation time drastically.
Another good idea would be to make Zelda up B have very little landing lag or with the new system even air would be acptectable choice.
They need to nerf Zelda lighting kick and increase the hit box of all her tilts.
They should make dim fire have less start up and leg afterwords
Her normal "B" (Nevada's love?) it would be nice if it had some super armor at the very begin or when the crystal is still whole.
Sheiks good but make her Fair have lower knock back and make them fly more upward.
Have a option to remove the chain as of right now I can't see anyway they can fix that without drastic change.

 

[Luthien]

I've posted regarding this topic a lot. I look forward to seeing what they've fixed.

 

[Aki-toriko]

I agree totally. Sheik was powerful enough to not have to rely on Zelda at all in Melee, and Zelda despite supposedly having the more powerful attacks of the pair she simply didn't have enough of it to make it worthwhile switching between them. Keep Sheiks trademarked speed but lower her attack a bit and just give Zelda a bit more power, or at least make it so that her attacks aren't so ****ed reliant on sweetspots. And as Fawriel said, give her some combo potential as well.

 

[Arean]

Do true... if they want them to be interdependent.. sheik must have a magic stamina something... heck who knows what will happen...

 

[GameAngel64]

I would like each of them to be more independent and viable characters on their own. Which character identity you assume in any given match would depend on your opponent's playstyle - and of course, your own. Sometimes it's better to have a powerhouse, sometimes it's better to have a fast character. I think the transform should only be there so you can counter your opponent's playstyle (or satisfy your own preferences), not so that you're forced to change from one to the other in order to combo/knock-out. In order to make this dichotomy not broken (is it fair to have both excellent power and great speed?), Zelda should not necessarily be the strongest character in the game, and Sheik should not necessarily be the fastest - but just enough of these extremes so that the player can assume a speed-or-power-oriented playstyle on the fly.

ALSO, a thought: if the idea is that Sheik is supposed to build up damage and Zelda is supposed to come in for the final knock-out move... Well let's hope your Sheik didn't take any damage getting your opponent to a high percentage, because sadly Zelda is very easy to knock out... so isn't it somewhat of a risk to bring her in for the final KO move? At that point, where your opponent is at a high percentage, isn't it possible or even likely that you too would be at too high of a percentage to safely switch over to Zelda who especially can't escape speedy attacks?

 

[SuperLink9]

I want them to be able to have an important relationship in battle, like they were supposed to, and I'm quite certain it'll be a lot closer to that in Brawl to that than in was in Melee.

Although I'm doubtful it'll be anywhere near perfect.

 

[Kips]

I think they should nerf Sheik in the way that Mario played in SSBM. Good damage and combos but awful killing power. I seriously spat on my computer monitor when I learned Sheik was back. I hate Sheik. I hate the fact that she was more powerful, the fact that despite a minor role she got a part over several other more preferable characters and the fact that she's a potato. I hate her.

Aside from my Sheik-Flame, I didn't like Zelda either. She was just... pitiful, I guess. No power, no nothing. I hope she's a lot better because I like her as a character and I hope she gets to wear the pants in this new relationship with Sheik.

/HatredofSheik

 

[freeman123]

Wouldn't it be ironic if Sheik ended up being terrible in this game and Zelda ended up being really good? Then Sheik would be the one no one uses.

 

[Arean]

I just hope they balance things out... they had enough time already finishing the game.... also... they should reveal all stuff by January 31...

 

[PwnyRide]

Wouldn't it be ironic if Sheik ended up being terrible in this game and Zelda ended up being really good? Then Sheik would be the one no one uses.

This would be the case in an ideal world.

 

[Fawriel]

Interesting note: this commercial for Brawl shows Zelda in action. Her down Smash seems to have more range, and apparently, her ftilt was changed into a multi-hit attack with forward knockback.
Looks like Zelda might be even heavier on multi-hits this time around...

Now, it's been said that DIing is far more effective in Brawl, however, I think I also remember that moves like Link's up-smash were harder to escape from this time as they sort of "suck you in".
And I also heard that most multi-hit moves like Pika's fair seem to deal more damage per hit than in Melee.
Good news for Zelda, maybe?

 

[rageagainst]

yes i believe that multi hit moves tend to "suck" players in. Where did you see ftilt, are you talking about neutral a?

the sucking ppl in of multi hits is VERY good news for zelda, since its easier to sweetspot as people don't fly out of it that easy anymore. Even if this isn't the case, the sweetspots for her smashes are atleast 2x bigger if anyone noticed

 

[Fawriel]

yes i believe that multi hit moves tend to "suck" players in. Where did you see ftilt, are you talking about neutral a?

...ahaha, oh yeah. I forgot that move existed. Nevermind that part, then.

 

[Kips]

Well if Zelda has more multi-hits and can suck people in, it's going to mean a hard time for people to mount a counter offensive. Remember that their shield won't go down if being hit, so she potentially could be an excellent shield breaker. OR she could just beat people up a lot. Either would be fine for me.

 

[Crescendolls]

I think the problem was you could play as either and win the match, but you couldn't really play as both. Making them more dependent and lessening the transform time would create one cohesive character. They were just too separate in Melee.

 

[Melphyr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUyZOBIOmwc

That could work :D

 

[hungrybum]

i hate sheik, i hope she gets nerfed everywhere (exept in the jump section) she should have less speed, power and knockback + she should be lighter than zelda

 

[Illyasvel]

If nerfing Sheik would automatically mean buff Zelda, then I agree with the nerfing. If it's going to be some senseless nerfing, then I'm not sure if I'm with that. I like Sheik, and I like her a lot, not as much as Zelda, but I still like her. So I'd be sad if they made things the other way around, making 1 super crap, and the other one super good. All we want is balance !

 

[OrlanduEX]

I would like each of them to be more independent and viable characters on their own. Which character identity you assume in any given match would depend on your opponent's playstyle - and of course, your own. Sometimes it's better to have a powerhouse, sometimes it's better to have a fast character. I think the transform should only be there so you can counter your opponent's playstyle (or satisfy your own preferences), not so that you're forced to change from one to the other in order to combo/knock-out. In order to make this dichotomy not broken (is it fair to have both excellent power and great speed?), Zelda should not necessarily be the strongest character in the game, and Sheik should not necessarily be the fastest - but just enough of these extremes so that the player can assume a speed-or-power-oriented playstyle on the fly.

ALSO, a thought: if the idea is that Sheik is supposed to build up damage and Zelda is supposed to come in for the final knock-out move... Well let's hope your Sheik didn't take any damage getting your opponent to a high percentage, because sadly Zelda is very easy to knock out... so isn't it somewhat of a risk to bring her in for the final KO move? At that point, where your opponent is at a high percentage, isn't it possible or even likely that you too would be at too high of a percentage to safely switch over to Zelda who especially can't escape speedy attacks?

I thoroughly agree with this man. Also, nothing says that Sheik and Zelda even need to be balanced or interdependent. Sheik needs to be nerfed somewhat, like Fox was, and Zelda just needs to not suck.
Problem solved.

 

[Luthien]

I would like each of them to be more independent and viable characters on their own. Which character identity you assume in any given match would depend on your opponent's playstyle - and of course, your own. Sometimes it's better to have a powerhouse, sometimes it's better to have a fast character. I think the transform should only be there so you can counter your opponent's playstyle (or satisfy your own preferences), not so that you're forced to change from one to the other in order to combo/knock-out. In order to make this dichotomy not broken (is it fair to have both excellent power and great speed?), Zelda should not necessarily be the strongest character in the game, and Sheik should not necessarily be the fastest - but just enough of these extremes so that the player can assume a speed-or-power-oriented playstyle on the fly.

Yes! That's what I was thinking! So, you're saying Zelda would be better against Ganondorf than Sheik (some nerfing/buffing would have to occur), but Sheik would be better against Fox than Zelda ("")?

Or are you saying that Sheik would be better against a camping/defensive playstyle, and Zelda would be better against a super-aggressive style? Example: If an opponent is running away, Sheik could easily catch up and procede to kick butt. If an opponent keeps launching themselves at you, avoid and f-smash with Zelda.

I want Sheik to shatter defenses, and Zelda to shatter offenses. So I like that idea a lot.

ALSO, a thought: if the idea is that Sheik is supposed to build up damage and Zelda is supposed to come in for the final knock-out move... Well let's hope your Sheik didn't take any damage getting your opponent to a high percentage, because sadly Zelda is very easy to knock out... so isn't it somewhat of a risk to bring her in for the final KO move? At that point, where your opponent is at a high percentage, isn't it possible or even likely that you too would be at too high of a percentage to safely switch over to Zelda who especially can't escape speedy attacks?

That was the idea (not the risk, but the greater reward), but it failed. Hopefully they'll go for something a little different this time around.

 

[rageagainst]

@ luthein, I agree with everything you said, I want them both equally good Independent, and good at klling different haracters.

theres no reason for them to be interdependent, they don't gain such a great advantage having to movesets, due to the transformation time, theres VERY FEW (none other than sheik switching to Zelda for her B up) comboes of moves that work together, giving the only real advantage of having to movesets is an advantage at different characters and/or mindgames.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=137598

I have lots to say... but since it's all been said in this thread and I can't remember all of it, I figure a small link would be better than multiple paragraphs

 

[NeoZ]

Wouldn't it be ironic if Sheik ended up being terrible in this game and Zelda ended up being really good? Then Sheik would be the one no one uses.

Making a ninja useless?!?!?!??! Are you serious?
They should both be good enough to fight alone, but work better together.

 

[Noshiee]

Making a ninja useless?!?!?!??! Are you serious?
They should both be good enough to fight alone, but work better together.

QFT! thats how I want them, where both of them are great, and that they can handle themselves alone, but be even better when switching during battle

 

[GameAngel64]

I thoroughly agree with this man. Also, nothing says that Sheik and Zelda even need to be balanced or interdependent. Sheik needs to be nerfed somewhat, like Fox was, and Zelda just needs to not suck.
Problem solved.

Thanks for acknowledging my post, I feel like it was sort of glazed over I'm not a man though

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=137598

I have lots to say... but since it's all been said in this thread and I can't remember all of it, I figure a small link would be better than multiple paragraphs

I had seen your thread before, and you do have some very nice ideas!

 

[OrlanduEX]

Thanks for acknowledging my post, I feel like it was sort of glazed over I'm not a man though



You got it!



I had seen your thread before, and you do have some very nice ideas!

I apologize for the false assumption, ma'am.

 

[Kips]

So I assume we're all in agreement that Zelda and Sheik should be fairly balanced to make them both good but the player must be flexible to play them both?

 

[Soluble Toast]

making Sheik useless, and Zelda a god tier is as bad as Melee.

Both MUST be balanced to make them compliment each other, and seem like an effective team, rather than a team as effective as 2 headless chickens. I'm sure Sakurai has considered their connection, and has hopefully spent a lot of time trying to perfect it. That would explain why Sheik was held off for so long. Perhaps he spent a lot of the development time trying to even them out?

 

[NeoZ]

So I assume we're all in agreement that Zelda and Sheik should be fairly balanced to make them both good but the player must be flexible to play them both?

Exactly, this is what I've been saying all along. I'm happy more people think like this, instead of saying "nerf Sheik until she's useless and buff Zelda".
We should make a signature banner or something(ala character support but with Zelda/Sheik).

 

[Kips]

Yeah, it would make zero sense to nerf Sheik utterly. She's cool and I hate her but that could change if she was simply balanced to share the spotlight with Zelda. In short- balance the scales, don't just tip them and make it a reverse-Melee situation!