It's pretty evident that the only reason anyone gives two s***s about Roy is because of Melee. Because if you take that away from him, and you may find this shocking, ROY SUCKS IN EVERY WAY IMAGINABLE. I'm speaking about the actual FE games, not SSB, of course. See, Roy lacks everything that the series has established about what a main character should be up to that point. He is statistically the weakest main character in the series, second to Lief (who is only weak due to technicalities), and NES FE1 Marth (who gets a pass due to it being the first game in the series, which lacks a lot of features introduced in the later games). It gets so bad to the point that he becomes a handicap to your entire team if you are unlucky enough, made even worse by the fact that he can't promote until near the end of the game and he's always mandatory. Now story wise.... yeah, there's nothing to talk about here either. Roy, the character, is pretty bland, lacks any interesting traits or self motivation, which makes it difficult to like him at all (you can say that for the rest of the cast in Sword of Seals, the supports don't help much either). Actually, now that I thought about it, the entire storyline of FE6 is pretty much a retelling of FE1 with a new coat of paint. So truly and thusly, Roy is, by all intent and purposes, a clone of Marth. Now I'm not saying that you should feel bad for liking Roy: he can become decent if your very lucky, not great, decent. I just wanted to give you some of the more agreed facts about him, so that you may be more knowledgeable about who your talking about. Personally, after playing a great amount of Sword of Seals, I don't care about Roy. I feel there are better characters out there that are more deserving. Yes, he helped get Fire Emblem to the west, but seriously, unless they plan on remaking the Elibe games, I rather have someone else. Speaking of which...
Holy grandiose hyperbole Batman. Looks like we got ourselves another bitter Roy hater, who thinks "maybe if I say Roy sux enough, they will all stop liking him."
Allow me to take your post apart piece by piece.
It's pretty evident that the only reason anyone gives two s***s about Roy is because of Melee.
WRONG! Let's look at the Japanese FE fanbase shall we? In the official poll for FE6, Roy ranked as the most popular character for his own game. In another official poll for the entire GBA Fire Emblem trilogy, Roy again ranked as the most popular character. This was amongst Japanese Fire Emblem fans mind you.
The only ones who don't seem to like Roy are the "hardcore Western Fire Emblem fans", the people who think pirating and illegally downloading games automatically makes them a notch above people who only avidly played the internationally released games. These people are probably less than 10% of the overall Western Fire Emblem fanbase, yet they are probably the loudest and most vocal segment of it. Most of the Western FE fanbase (well over 90%) has not played ANY of the Japan-only Fire Emblems, so their opinions on Roy mean nothing (especially considering the side of the ocean that did properly get it, actually likes Roy in FE6).
Because if you take that away from him, and you may find this shocking, ROY SUCKS IN EVERY WAY IMAGINABLE.
Okay, here is where you outted yourself as a blind hater. You are going way, way overboard in your hyperbole (but then again, when have Roy haters ever not?).
The biggest reason Roy "sucks" in FE6 is his absurdly late promotion.
Let's assume Roy promotes at Chapter 16 (where he becomes leader of the Etrurian army), and you are able to feasibly get him to 20/20.
Let's compare the "average" endgame 20/20 stats for Roy with Alan, Dieck, and Rutger (who are regarded as being amongst the best units for FE6).
Roy's averages at 20/20-
52
22
25
24
30
17
16
Alan at 20/20-
56
25
21
25
18
17
7
Dieck at 20/20-
60
25
27
22
17
17
8
Rutger(hard mode) at 20/20
59
21
29
30
14
16
10
I was generous enough throw in Hard Mode Rutger since he has even higher bases on that mode (a lot of the characters you recruit that were enemies on Hard Mode in FE6 have higher bases than in Normal mode).
Roy ends up comparing very favorably with the best of the best. The only real area he lags behind is HP. However, his defense stats are the best among them and his luck stat blows the rest of them out of the water, and he competes with them all in terms of strength, speed, and skill.
Let's also compare Roy's bases to a character that is considered one of the best in FE6, Lance:
Hp: Roy has to less HP.
Str: Same strength
Skl: One less skill
Spd: One less speed
Lck: Four more luck
Def: One less defense
As can be seen, Roy's real weakness in FE6 was his absurdly late promotion (three chapters from the end of the game).
As you alluded to a bit in your post, FE6 drew a lot from FE1. I suspect initially on Roy was not intended to promote at all (like Marth in FE1), and it was basically a last minute decision to do so. Roy would come out looking MUCH differently if promoted at Chapter 16.
However, enough about "what if", let's also talk about Roy as he actually is for FE6. Compared to the rest of the units in FE6, on a tier list for the game (which bases characters on their overall performance throughout the entire game, especially for ranked runs), Roy is considered amongst the Top 10 best units in FE6. Keep in mind too that FE6 has over 50 units in it. So amongst all those characters, Roy is considered better than 40 of them.
To further show that Roy is no weakling if he were allowed to promote earlier, I am going to compare how he would do in a fight with who is regarded as the strongest lord in the series, Ike.
Also, let's go one step further and compare Roy at 20/20 with Ike (FE9) at 20/20. Both have their respective holy weapons too (Sword of Seals for Roy, and Ragnell for Ike). However, I removed skills since FE6 does not have the skill system.
Skillless Ike:
52 HP
25 STR
26 SKL
28 SPD
22 DEF
19 LUK
With Ragnell
43 ATK, 28 AS, 141 hit (151 if using FE9 hit mechanics), 75 AVD
Roy:
52.4 HP
21.9 STR
24.5 SKL
23.4 SPD
16.5 DEF
16.4 RES
28.7 LUK
8 CON
With SoS:
40 ATK, 23 AS, 159 HIT (173 if using FE9 hit mechanics), 75 AVD
Normally, Ike doubles and deals 20 damage with each hit, 66% chances (77% true). Roy deals 13 damage with each hit, 84% chances (95% true).
This means a 4HKO for Roy.
Thankfully for Roy, Ike doesn't have the necessary attack power to KO him even after healing off a turn of damage. Meaning Ike needs three turns to KO Roy.
Example situation where everything hits:
Ike attacks, Roy counters. Roy has taken 40 damage, Ike has taken 13.
Roy heals. Roy has taken 10 damage, Ike has taken 13.
Ike attacks. Roy counters. Roy has taken 50 damage, Ike has taken 26.
Roy heals. Roy has taken 20 damage, Ike has taken 26.
Ike attacks, Roy dies.
Clear cut situation if everything hits. However, Ike has a good chance of missing at least once.
Another example:
Ike attacks, Roy counters. Roy has taken 40 damage, Ike has taken 13.
Roy heals. Roy has taken 10 damage, Ike has taken 13.
Ike attacks, misses once. Roy counters. Roy has taken 30 damage, Ike has taken 26.
Roy heals. Roy has taken 0 damage, Ike has taken 26.
Ike attacks, Roy has taken 40 damage, Ike has taken 39.
Roy attacks. Ike dies.
As you can see, if Ike ever misses, his damage falls to something that Roy can actually handle.
It seems very likely to me that Roy wins this battle, as the chance of Ike missing at least once in 6 tries with 77% hit is quite high. No Aether means no instant win chance.
However, Ike would probably win if skills were thrown in the mix, though considering FE6/FE7 does now have a skill system, I tried to put the two on even ground. Though regardless, I wanted to show that how "weak" Roy could hold his own against Ike.
The two main things from this are:
1. The Sword of Seals is a broken as hell weapon.
2. That Roy, if he were allowed to promote earlier, would be much, much better.
However, you said:
ROY SUCKS IN EVERY WAY IMAGINABLE.
From your language, it sounds as though Roy has no utility at all in FE6 and is basically useless the entire way through.
The thing is, as said earlier, Roy's main problem comes from his absurdly late promotion, but even at the point where the rest of your army begins promoting, Roy still has lots of utility (and even some after where he is lagging behind).
Roy for one has one of the best support triangles in the game (Roy/Alan/Lance), with the only other one giving it a run for its money being the Dieck/Rutger/Clarine support triangle.
The supports that Roy has with Alan and Lance not only provide good support bonus for Roy as well as two of the best characters in the game, but they also build very quickly (especially in comparison to the Dieck/Rutger/Clarine triangle). This means the utility for it can be realized much quickly for the game than other supports. This support also helps Roy from being a "burden" on your army even in late game, since although he will be unable to kill things, he will still be able to stay alive as well as provide a big boost to Alan and Lance who are among two biggest heavy lifters in your army.
Roy also has a lot of utility in the first eight chapters in the game (where a lot of the enemy units are axe-wielders and bosses are armored/mounted units), which means his rapier will come into play for taking down the bosses for those early chapters.
If you support Roy with Alance and Lance (which you should), Roy can pretty much hold his own (or at the very least stay alive) by the time he promotes, though he definitely won't be a main offensive character or a character you send out to take down armies. Toward the late game, He is great to use as bait if you supported him with Alan/Lance (and especially hide him on a bush or mountain), since due to the supports he will probably dodge most things thrown at him, while pretty much having Alan/Lance finish off those guys when the player's turn appears (since Roy at the very least has weakened them during the defense phase).
See, Roy lacks everything that the series has established about what a main character should be up to that point.
Wrong again. The only "strong" lord up until that point was Sigurd, and maybe Celice (he starts off weak, but later becomes a force to be reckoned with). In all the other games for the FE series at that point, there were "weak" lords. FE1, FE2, and FE5 all had weak lords. Marth was also mediocre/"weak" in Book 1 to FE3 (but good in Book 2).
More often than not, the lord was not a "godly" force, and it was pretty much Sigurd and his son who were the odd men out amongst lords for pre-FE6 Fire Emblems.
So again, how does Roy go against everything the series had established about a main character should be up until that point when he was pretty similar to them?
He is statistically the weakest main character in the series, second to Lief (who is only weak due to technicalities), and NES FE1 Marth (who gets a pass due to it being the first game in the series, which lacks a lot of features introduced in the later games).
I just provided some stats that proved otherwise earlier on.
Also, Leaf is not weak due to technicalities (which I assume you are referring to the low caps overall for FE5), he is weak overall in the context of FE5. Almost every other unit in the game is considered a better unit than Leaf, on the tier list for that game (again going for the best rank possible), Leaf is ranked below more than 30 other units. Leaf's two best things going for him are that he never fatigues (due to being the lord class) and his Sword of Light (which is mainly used as a vulnerary for Leaf later in the game).
Leaf is my favorite lord in the series (just look at my avatar) and FE5 is one of my two favorite games in the series, however, Leaf is definitely worse than Roy is within FE6, and unlike Roy, an earlier promotion (Leaf promotes quite late too) would not do much to help him/make him better.
Also, FE1 Marth is worse than Roy too. FE1 Marth is bad as he is due to very low growths and being unable to promote at all (his only saving grace is the FE1 Falchion, which is beastly). For FE3, Book 1 Marth is roughly as good as Roy is (Book 2 Marth is another story).
You could also argue Micaiah might be on the same level as Roy, since unlike Roy, one or two hits its lights out for her, and that is even after you have levelled her up for a bit. However, I will just rank her slightly above Roy for the sake of discussion.
It gets so bad to the point that he becomes a handicap to your entire team if you are unlucky enough, made even worse by the fact that he can't promote until near the end of the game and he's always mandatory.
Nice hyperbole, but Roy never gets that bad. Heck, even Leaf never gets that bad. Roy's supports with Alan & Lance (or even Lilina) help him hold his own until he promotes, especially if you take the Ilia route (which is easier than many of the chapter up until that point).
Now story wise.... yeah, there's nothing to talk about here either. Roy, the character, is pretty bland, lacks any interesting traits or self motivation, which makes it difficult to like him at all (you can say that for the rest of the cast in Sword of Seals, the supports don't help much either).
Three things:
1. This is purely opinion.
2. FE6 never had a proper localization, just a fan translation, so he could very well be regarded differently if FE6 were properly localized (I have not seen complaints about Roy's personality among Japanese fans, and even some actually saying they liked it, though it could be just be a cultural thing).
3. All of the lords up until FE7 did not really have discernible personalities.
The FE6 manga tie-in, Hasha no Tsurigi, does serve to help flesh out Roy quite a bit. Roy, like other lords, has his share of struggles and hardships, but really does not deserve to be singled out for being "bland" when pretty much every pre-FE7 lord could be described in much the same way.
Actually, now that I thought about it, the entire storyline of FE6 is pretty much a retelling of FE1 with a new coat of paint.
FE6 did borrow a lot of motifs from FE1. However, it also borrowed many elements from FE3, FE4, and FE5.
Borrowed from FE3: The whole concept of collecting holy items to get to the true ending (in FE3 it was collecting the orbs to the Shield of Seals, while in FE6 it was collecting the holy weapons).
Borrowed from FE4: Stat-boosting holy weapons, as well as the recruitment theme being re-used, and the battle theme being re-used for the arena.
Borrowed from FE5: Rescuing, gaiden chapters, and alternate routes (though FE6 vastly fleshed out the last one).
FE6 also introduced several series staples:
- The modern support system (this is probably the biggest one)
- Different difficulty modes
- A tutorial
- Multiplayer (this has been in every FE since FE6 with the exception of FE9 and FE10).
Much like how FE13 was basically an amalgration of every FE up until that point, FE6 was also in the same way. There is even a series retrospective in the FE6 instruction booklet that talks about each installment to the Fire Emblem up until that point.
FE6 was basically made as an installment to help introduce a whole new generation to Fire Emblem, so while they borrowed motifs and themes from FE1, they also brought in various other things from later FE's, as well as a few new features.
So truly and thusly, Roy is, by all intent and purposes, a clone of Marth.
Sakurai: Speaking as the designer for this game, there is nothing wrong with clones.
Roy is only similar to Marth in that FE1 Marth/Book 1 FE3 Marth are regarded as weak/mediocre, and that FE1 Marth had no promotion while Roy had a very late promotion.
In terms of backstory and even their holy weapons, they are pretty different from each other. Marth was a prince in exile, while Roy basically was being given greater responsibilities and command over the course of Bern's war on Lycia.
I'm not saying that you should feel bad for liking Roy: he can become decent if your very lucky, not great, decent.
Your harsh language, propaganda, and hyperboles tell a pretty different story about your intentions. Why should Roy fans care that he is not a map sweeper like Ike? Why can't Roy fans like him for who he is in Smash Bros.? I mean I even appreciate Roy in FE6 (but then again, I also like other "unpopular" lords like Leaf and Eliwood).
If FE6 ever gets remade (which I am sure will happen if Roy returns for Smash 4), and they address all the "Roy is weak/mediocre" points, and he ends up being a great unit, then what?
FE6 is one of my two favorite games in the series, and it was pretty much me enjoying FE6 as much as I did, that I even imported the rest of the Fire Emblem series, and brought my fandom to the series to a whole new level.
I actually LIKE that Roy/Leaf are not powerhouse characters, and that you need to be more wary of what you do with them later in their games, or rather employ more strategy (Roy and Leaf do have some good utility late in the game with some clever tactics).
As I said earlier, even if people just like Roy for how he is in Smash Bros., it does not change the fact that many people liked using him in Melee, and that he brought MANY people to the Fire Emblem series, particularly FE7 (where many Melee fans thought Eliwood was Roy). Me enjoying Roy in Melee was pretty much the impetus for me even buying a Fire Emblem game in the first place.
Sakurai did not just put in Roy to help promote FE6, but also to help promote the series as a whole. Its important to keep in mind that it was Sakurai's idea to even place Roy in to begin with (not Intelligent Systems) and that Sakurai himself is a huge fan of the Fire Emblem series (he even did the Iwata Asks for Shadow Dragon).
Sakurai anticipated Roy becoming a well-received character, remarking that while his game was not out yet, that he felt that many players would love him for his "charm".
That truly shows Sakurai's talents as a designer. That people even love "Mario in a labcoat" and an "joke character Pikachu" shows that Sakurai puts a lot into even characters he made relatively quickly (note to Doc and Pichu fans: I am not mocking those characters, but rather using the epithets that are used against them).
I just wanted to give you some of the more agreed facts about him, so that you may be more knowledgeable about who your talking about.
Most Roy fans already know he is not among the best lord in the series. The question is why do you think its important for them to know that he is as bad as you think he is?
Your agenda is pretty much to make Roy fans feel bad or de-moralized for liking him.
FE6 was a great game, and Roy was a very fun character to use in Melee and among the most popular newcomers in that game. We should be allowed to like Roy on those grounds alone, and no amount, "but.... but... he sux..." is going to change that. Roy brought many people to the Fire Emblem series, and he brought lots of good times to millions of people who played Melee. Like it or not, he has became a face of the franchise because of this, regardless of what you may feel.
I feel there are better characters out there that are more deserving.
Oh goody. "Better" and "deserving" are highly, highly subjective.
I have a hunch that you are probably talking about either Lyn and/or Micaiah, and I bet your primary reasoning behind them being so "deserving" or "better" is that:
1. They are female.
2. They would be so "unique".
The first one is dumb and sexist, and the latter one is an opinion (Lyn and Micaiah could just as easily end up clones).
Secondly, within the context of the Fire Emblem series, both of those lords are more insignificant than the other lords within their own arcs, and even their own games.
Lyn is probably the least important lord in the entire series through a storyline point of view, and within proper storyline of FE7, she is just there. The actual FE7 is really Eliwood and Hector's story (heck, the subtitle for FE7 in Japan is "Blazing Sword" which is the nickname for Durandal, the sword that Eliwood acquires). FE6, much like FE4, is considered to be the main story of the Elibe arc. FE7 was basically laying the groundwork for FE6 to take place (showing more about the cruelty and insecurity of Zephiel's father, and more to show what kind of person Zephiel was before his faith in man was shattered). FE6's storyline also dealt directly with the main conflict/war of Elibe (holy weapons were gathered, and the Dark Dragon again had to be dealt with), while in FE7 the final boss was merely a mindless war dragon (in FE6, Jahn, one of the main dragon generals still alive from the Scouring, served as one of the main antagonists from behind the scenes).
Moreover, you have Roy commanding all of the lords of Elibe in FE13's three-chapter DLC story arc, "Red vs. Blue", which has all the armies of Elibe against all of the armies of Tellius (it was localized as "Smash Brethren" in the West to likely capitalize on the popularity Roy and Ike have from Smash Bros.).
For Micaiah, she plays second-fiddle to Ike for the Tellius arc (she is completely absent from FE9, and has to share the stage with Ike in FE10). Again, in the "Red vs. Blue" storyline, it was Ike that was made commander of all the armies of Tellius, showing that IS considers Ike to be the most important lord of Tellius.
Also, if you use the point that "but Micaiah's game is more recent", keep in mind that FE10 will be one year older than FE6 was when Brawl was released by the time Smash 4 releases.
However, even if you were to ignore all of this, the most important thing to keep in mind is the what is "better" and "deserving" are incredibly subjective things.
I mean in Sakurai's mind, Dr. Mario was clearly more "deserving" than Toad, Paper Mario, Bowser Jr., and Waluigi for Brawl (he was actually planned at one point unlike the rest).
Yes, he helped get Fire Emblem to the west, but seriously, unless they plan on remaking the Elibe games, I rather have someone else
This is what it ultimately stems from. You don't want Roy in so you tear him down, and try to make others feel bad for liking him.
You are certainly allowed to like whatever characters you want in, however, you need to realize that the hopes by Roy fans are no less legitimate even if they have never even played a Fire Emblem game in their life.
Smash Bros. is Smash Bros. in many ways it is its own thing.
I mean there are probably very few people that like the source material for Ice Climbers and ROB, yet lots of people love those characters for how they are in Smash Bros. For fans of Marth, Ike, Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, and Lucas, only a few people (relative to their Smash Bros. fanbases) have played their source material games, yet their fandom of those characters is not questioned.
People can be allowed to love a character for who they are in Smash Bros. even if they have not played their game, or even series. I bet their are many people who love Falco for example, but don't like the Star Fox series. Are those people any less not Falco fans? No.
The same goes for every character in Smash Bros. We love them for who they are in Smash Bros.
The reasons for inclusion we have for prospective characters is all different.
For some (like myself), its about the long history and fun times we have had with that character and how much we enjoyed the games they are from, for others it may be about just what they think they might bring to the table.
Smash Bros. is a series unlike any other. Many of the characters do come in based on their important to their franchises or the popularity they have, while others only get in due to Sakurai's own whimsical-ness.
For many fans of Roy, he brought us good times, whether it was through Melee or through FE6. Those who love him for Melee are no less legitimate fans of him than the Marth/Ike fans who never played a FE game, let alone their own games in the series.
Ultimately, Smash Bros. is about bringing in their favorite Nintendo characters, and for many, due to his appearance in Melee, Roy is certainly a favorite.
I hope this is the last time the "Roy sux and you should feel bad for liking him" dribble ever comes up in this topic.
