Q&A You Found the Hint Glasses! - Q&A and FAQ

[Zerker]

Well, now that our Jab 1 cancels are gone in this latest patch (1.0.6), we'll have to start looking forward and using Jab 2 cancels, from what I've gathered.
... However, I have no idea how it's done, or if it'll really work well, as I really didn't play Brawl competitively.
If anyone could shed some light on Jab 2 cancels for me, I'd really appreciate it.

 

[MintyGuy700]

He really got rid of Jab 1 cancel? Sakurai got rid of Link's best tool, that's a crime.

 

[Sabaca]

Well, now that our Jab 1 cancels are gone in this latest patch (1.0.6), we'll have to start looking forward and using Jab 2 cancels, from what I've gathered.
... However, I have no idea how it's done, or if it'll really work well, as I really didn't play Brawl competitively.
If anyone could shed some light on Jab 2 cancels for me, I'd really appreciate it.

As far as i tested it/know there aren't any Jab 2 Cancel combos. Apart from that you can use the same mixups although they won't work as well.

 

[i_am_seed]

Nair simple feels better than both Bair and Fair... when would I want to use one of those two instead of Nair?

 

[Elessar]

Nair simple feels better than both Bair and Fair... when would I want to use one of those two instead of Nair?

I usually use fair when tech chasing rolls on platforms since the lasting hitbox has more knockback than the sourspot nair. That is essentially the criteria I use. It depends on when the hit will connect and how far you want to send the opponent. If it'll connect later and I want to create distance I use either fair or dair since, as I said, sourspot nair has almost no knockback.

 

[Ieven]

This might been already ask, but can we still Jab1 > Dsmash, Jab1 > Ftilt after the nerf ? If don't, Jab2 > Dsmash works ?

 

[Elessar]

This might been already ask, but can we still Jab1 > Dsmash, Jab1 > Ftilt after the nerf ? If don't, Jab2 > Dsmash works ?

No we can't, at least not effectively. Jab 1 needs to return completely to neutral stance before another action can be taken and the lag is too big. You can only Jab 2 out of Jab 1. Jab 2 is slow and doesn't connect with anything because it has a set knockback and IASA. It doesn't combo into anything, not even Jab 3 effectively.

 

[Ieven]

Arf. I guess it's a huge nerf for Link in the end ....

 

[PKBeam]

what makes link drop his spin attack early?

 

[CCTR]

TL;DR
Can someone confirm or refute that Link (ver. 1.0.6) has a Jab2 Jump Cancel (Jab2 > tap Jump > Smash/Tilt/Grab/Aerial) that seems to be slightly faster (1 or 2 frames?) and has more options than a regular Jab2 Cancel?

Hi guys, I’m a rather inexperienced Link main and this is my first time posting to the board (although I’ve been lurking for a couple months). I’m posting now because I was experimenting with how Link has changed after the 1.0.6 patch, and I seem to have come across a type of Jab Cancel that I haven’t seen mentioned yet in the FAQ, Guide, or Metagame threads, and I was wondering if a Link veteran could confirm or refute it (or tell me I’ve been blind and missed a discussion about it somewhere in the existing threads).

For this apparent Jab Cancel, instead of crouching after Jab2, you quickly tap Jump and then quickly input any attack (but if you input too quickly the attack comes out as a Jab 3). Depending on what you input and your exact timing, you can get the attacks to come out as a Tilt, Smash, Grab, or Aerial (although for Grab/Zair inputs can also come out as an air dodge). From what I can tell, this Jab2 Jump Cancel comes out at least as fast as the regular Jab2 Cancel (or maybe even 1 or 2 frames faster?) and provides more options.

Thanks in advance for whomever can confirm/refute this. Also, thanks to the Link boards as a whole for being a great resource for all of us lurking Link scrubs out there.

 

[Elessar]

TL;DR
Can someone confirm or refute that Link (ver. 1.0.6) has a Jab2 Jump Cancel (Jab2 > tap Jump > Smash/Tilt/Grab/Aerial) that seems to be slightly faster (1 or 2 frames?) and has more options than a regular Jab2 Cancel?

Hi guys, I’m a rather inexperienced Link main and this is my first time posting to the board (although I’ve been lurking for a couple months). I’m posting now because I was experimenting with how Link has changed after the 1.0.6 patch, and I seem to have come across a type of Jab Cancel that I haven’t seen mentioned yet in the FAQ, Guide, or Metagame threads, and I was wondering if a Link veteran could confirm or refute it (or tell me I’ve been blind and missed a discussion about it somewhere in the existing threads).

For this apparent Jab Cancel, instead of crouching after Jab2, you quickly tap Jump and then quickly input any attack (but if you input too quickly the attack comes out as a Jab 3). Depending on what you input and your exact timing, you can get the attacks to come out as a Tilt, Smash, Grab, or Aerial (although for Grab/Zair inputs can also come out as an air dodge). From what I can tell, this Jab2 Jump Cancel comes out at least as fast as the regular Jab2 Cancel (or maybe even 1 or 2 frames faster?) and provides more options.

Thanks in advance for whomever can confirm/refute this. Also, thanks to the Link boards as a whole for being a great resource for all of us lurking Link scrubs out there.

I'll try to test this as soon as I get home and update my Wii U. Been having issues with my wifi. Someone may test it before though, hopefully @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive . Also, presentations are supposed to be made in social. And you're welcome.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

TL;DR
Can someone confirm or refute that Link (ver. 1.0.6) has a Jab2 Jump Cancel (Jab2 > tap Jump > Smash/Tilt/Grab/Aerial) that seems to be slightly faster (1 or 2 frames?) and has more options than a regular Jab2 Cancel?

Hi guys, I’m a rather inexperienced Link main and this is my first time posting to the board (although I’ve been lurking for a couple months). I’m posting now because I was experimenting with how Link has changed after the 1.0.6 patch, and I seem to have come across a type of Jab Cancel that I haven’t seen mentioned yet in the FAQ, Guide, or Metagame threads, and I was wondering if a Link veteran could confirm or refute it (or tell me I’ve been blind and missed a discussion about it somewhere in the existing threads).

For this apparent Jab Cancel, instead of crouching after Jab2, you quickly tap Jump and then quickly input any attack (but if you input too quickly the attack comes out as a Jab 3). Depending on what you input and your exact timing, you can get the attacks to come out as a Tilt, Smash, Grab, or Aerial (although for Grab/Zair inputs can also come out as an air dodge). From what I can tell, this Jab2 Jump Cancel comes out at least as fast as the regular Jab2 Cancel (or maybe even 1 or 2 frames faster?) and provides more options.

Thanks in advance for whomever can confirm/refute this. Also, thanks to the Link boards as a whole for being a great resource for all of us lurking Link scrubs out there.

Well my immediate thought is, no that doesn't make sense because you can't Jump cancel into any of the following "Smash/Tilt/Grab/Aerial" (except for U-smash of course). My next thought would be to tell you that what's probably happening is that you're simply timing the option perfectly. You can do any action at a specific point in the Jab 2, including crouch or simply attack or even dash or shield or jump. I've said it somewhere else before that the crouch is only truly necessary if you want to do a Jab 1 immediately. By choosing to not crouch at all and simply timing your next move perfectly, you do in fact save one frame.

You can see this yourself. I'll explain. If you face left using 1/4 hold in training then do a Jab 2 and then slowly tap L to cycle through the animation while holding down to crouch at the first possible frame, the exact frame that you can act is the one immediately after the one where the sword is perfectly horizontal behind him. You will have to try multiple times to pause it just right.

As to the claimed jab cancel by jumping, regardless of what I think about it, I'll look into that real quick.
Ok, I managed to slowly cycle through and I input a jump in my last L button flick which landed perfectly on the frame where Link has the sword perfectly horizontal. I'm now going to hold 'A'. If it results in a Jab 3, there is no jump cancel. If it results in a Jab 1, then you have utterly destroyed my world. Aaand...
Jab 3.
Well that's a shame.

The answer to the phenomenon you were experiencing is that you were simply saving a frame by not bothering with the crouch.

 

[CCTR]

Thanks for the responses guys. @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive : Whoops, it looks like I just wasn't familiar enough with how to do a frame by frame at 1/4 speed. I was confused by the fact that the Jump (and the Specials as well?) could buffer during second half of the Jab animations, but this doesn't actually change which frame you can first input a non-Jab attack and not have it continue the Jab chain. I guess pressing the Jump button was just forcing me to better time my attack input so that I was more "perfect" with my timing.

 

[Gombi]

Hey guy i was making myself some fun with new character and i got to link and it made me wonder. Why is he always C or D tier in list ? He does seems to have everything to be at least B tier no ?

Good projectile game, hylian shield nulify projectile, good KO potential, some potent follow up, recovery ain't the best but not bad at all with grab and up b. So what make him that low on tier list ?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hey guy i was making myself some fun with new character and i got to link and it made me wonder. Why is he always C or D tier in list ? He does seems to have everything to be at least B tier no ?

Good projectile game, good KO potential, some potent follow up, recovery ain't the best but not bad at all with grab and up b. So what make him that low on tier list ?

I made a post in the social that should answer this.

This actually brings up a very simple point that I've been meaning to make.

Until smash games start getting balanced around competitive play, Link will never be one of the better characters.
Let's think about what are some of the well established 'must have' qualities for designing the character Link in a smash game. Poor mobility, heavy/fast faller, hard hitting, projectile user, underwhelming recovery, long range slower attacks, and a tether grab. These qualities are actually not that bad in a non-competitive environment. Mobility or overall speed of attacks doesn't matter as much as the neutral game of footsies is non-existent. Being a heavy fast faller isn't so bad either because no-one's taking advantage of it by juggling you for ridiculous combos. Projectiles are god-tier when no-one has a half decent shield game. The recovery issue isn't anywhere near as bad when gimping isn't a real threat. Etc.
Any character who is heavy, slower and hard hitting will always suffer in the long run of the competitive metagame. Even if they start out considered good, in time people will learn the matchup and take advantage of the weaknesses. More agile and faster characters will conversely always end up doing better in smash with the way the game is currently balanced.

 

[Zerker]

Which of Link's throws has the least amount of Knockback Scaling?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Which of Link's throws has the least amount of Knockback Scaling?

I could give you a fish or I could teach you to fish.

Go here http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
control-F search for Link.
Scroll down till you see the four throws.
'b' = base knockback
'g' = growth knockback.
What you're after is the one with the smallest number before the 'g'.

 

[Mrawesome48]

Actually the matches you are describing are not representative of the real Link meta. It's simply the way scrubs on FG play. To beat them, depending on your char, just manage to get near them in a way that would make them start rolling and read and punish the roll. That means, learn how far the roll travel and predict where it will stop. You have a couple of frames from the moment it stops until Link can do anything so you get a window to punish. Ideally you'd want to use a long lasting hitbox, maybe dash attack, low floating dair or nair.

Just keep on mind that they will try to run, predict how they will do it or observe their pattern which they will repeat and then simply react I'm beforehand to it and you'll land a punish.

Well the issue im having is the constant arrow spam. When i shield they come up and grab me.

 

[PKBeam]

then don't stay in your shield...?

 

[Elessar]

Well the issue im having is the constant arrow spam. When i shield they come up and grab me.

then don't stay in your shield...?

Link isn't fast enough to reach you from across the stage, and his bow has so much start up and end lag that he should be able to fire it up close and then approach and grab you faster than you'd be able to react. His grab is also extremely slow which means that you can literally dodge it out of reflex. Practice your timing for dodging the arrows. Practice your OoS options and power shielding while moving. Finally, consider having a turnip in your hand. You cna throw it OoS which means that as soon as you block the arrow you can throw the turnip by pressing attack. This should stop any Link who's coming in for a grab. Even if the tether is out already, because of the game's mechanics your turnip with hit him and thus free you from the grab.

 

[BurstPanther]

Why does Sakurai hate Link? We finally get a half decent Link and they nerf what little tools we have.. he's the hero of Hyrule for F sake... mean while gay gets all the love...

 

[Elessar]

Why does Sakurai hate Link? We finally get a half decent Link and they nerf what little tools we have.. he's the hero of Hyrule for F sake... mean while gay gets all the love...

Because Sakurai never beat LoZ classic.

 

[BurstPanther]

Because Sakurai never beat LoZ classic.

Probably still stuck on the Water Temple

 

[Iceweasel]

What stages are advantageous to Link? What stages are bad for him?

 

[Rizen]

What stages are advantageous to Link? What stages are bad for him?

Link doesn't have any phenomenal or terrible stages. Many stages depend on the MU. As a general guideline:
BF, Delfino, Skyloft, Town and City are good.
Lylat and Castle Siege are bad.
The rest are somewhere in between.
This is just my opinion though. IDK about 3DS stages.

 

[BurstPanther]

Pacland... that stage is bad for everyone

 

[Iceweasel]

When would JCIT be a better option that DITCIT? DITCIT seems to have the same options, but with a longer, faster slide. Unless DITCIT gets patched out, why would I want to use JCIT?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Because sometimes you don't want to slide all the way into your opponent because circumstances make that a stupid thing to do (spacing/safety purposes). Or sometimes you just want to throw a bomb backwards out of a run without having to do a Bombslide back throw (ease of use purposes). There are other reasons, like doing 'soft throws' forwards out of a run that simply require the JC throw (mechanical differences purposes), but then, I don't think you're a Link main so that wouldn't apply to you.

 

[Iceweasel]

Because sometimes you don't want to slide all the way into your opponent because circumstances make that a stupid thing to do (spacing/safety purposes). Or sometimes you just want to throw a bomb backwards out of a run without having to do a Bombslide back throw (ease of use purposes). There are other reasons, like doing 'soft throws' forwards out of a run that simply require the JC throw (mechanical differences purposes), but then, I don't think you're a Link main so that wouldn't apply to you.

Thanks! Actually, I'm looking to switch my main. Captain Falcon is amazing, but none of my RL friends play Smash and the Cap plays very differently in lag. So, when I go to my locals, I have to play Falcon in a way different from how I've been practicing him. Link seems to play roughly the same vs. a CPU as in For Glory, so I'm looking to change to him. I'll make the final decision based on how I feel about him at the next monthly. In the last week or two of FG practice, I've gotta say I'm feeling pretty good about Link.

Not only that, but Falcon is one of the more commonly-played characters, so everybody has a lot of MU experience against him, which makes it even harder to put up a good fight.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Does anyone know how the sliding item toss with the upwards fakeout works in this game? @KirinBlaze does it quite a bit.

 

[Dumbfire]

Does anyone know how the sliding item toss with the upwards fakeout works in this game? @KirinBlaze does it quite a bit.

It's an upthrow fake-out bombslide. See here for detailed information: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-comprehensive-guide-to-links-ats.400585/
You cancel a dash throw with an upthrow using one of many diferent inputs. The old DACUS inputs work, as long as C-stick is set to tilts.

 

[Sabaca]

Where do i find / What is the frame data to Links instant z-drops and all kind of bombthrows.

Well , here we go https://drive.google.com/folderview...SVNhcXBnYWtxM2dHU2Zha0RIV0s3VG8&usp=drive_web Twitter @lordgankoo didn't translate Link yet , but we can see that Links Jump has 7 Frames of startup, so an instant zdrop if done perfectly would come out at frame 8. Also we got Links item throw data already.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's an upthrow fake-out bombslide. See here for detailed information: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-comprehensive-guide-to-links-ats.400585/
You cancel a dash throw with an upthrow using one of many diferent inputs. The old DACUS inputs work, as long as C-stick is set to tilts.

Oh, no wonder. I normally play with C-stick set to Smash, so I was wondering why it wasn't working.

Just realized...probably works with the new A+B button input probably?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Well , here we go https://drive.google.com/folderview...SVNhcXBnYWtxM2dHU2Zha0RIV0s3VG8&usp=drive_web Twitter @lordgankoo didn't translate Link yet , but we can see that Links Jump has 7 Frames of startup, so an instant zdrop if done perfectly would come out at frame 8. Also we got Links item throw data already.

Feel free to make a post about this in the metagame thread so the information isn't lost.

Oh, no wonder. I normally play with C-stick set to Smash, so I was wondering why it wasn't working.

Just realized...probably works with the new A+B button input probably?

Maybe just go to the thread you were linked to and read.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I was going through a recent japanese frame data list and noticed on Link's there is a lot of sword attacks that have a priority type that isn't standard (listed as △ instead of ◯).

Varies other moves have this type. Mario's Fsmash, Peach's up tilt and up smash, Marth's up smash (not any of his other attacks) are some examples.

Do any of you know something about Link's attacks that aren't standard?

 

[Elessar]

I was going through a recent japanese frame data list and noticed on Link's there is a lot of sword attacks that have a priority type that isn't standard (listed as △ instead of ◯).

Varies other moves have this type. Mario's Fsmash, Peach's up tilt and up smash, Marth's up smash (not any of his other attacks) are some examples.

Do any of you know something about Link's attacks that aren't standard?

We would be able to provide a better answer if you tell us which lives have that strange priority. However based on the info you have provided (other chars' moves) I'd say it refers to disjoints. For example, March's usmash has a disjoint in that the hitbox is larger than his hurtbox and is not limited to his sword but actually extends to his body and besides his body. Link has some disjoints which work like this, which would be dair for example. However, as I said, if you can provide us with the name of the ones we will be able to answer your question better.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

We would be able to provide a better answer if you tell us which lives have that strange priority. However based on the info you have provided (other chars' moves) I'd say it refers to disjoints. For example, March's usmash has a disjoint in that the hitbox is larger than his hurtbox and is not limited to his sword but actually extends to his body and besides his body. Link has some disjoints which work like this, which would be dair for example. However, as I said, if you can provide us with the name of the ones we will be able to answer your question better.

It's only Marth's up smash. None of his other sword disjoints are listed. The attacks listed for Link is every sword attack with the exception of: Fsmash1, both hits of down smash, up air, down air. (priority of specials aren't listed so idk about spin attack)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I was going through a recent japanese frame data list and noticed on Link's there is a lot of sword attacks that have a priority type that isn't standard (listed as △ instead of ◯).

Varies other moves have this type. Mario's Fsmash, Peach's up tilt and up smash, Marth's up smash (not any of his other attacks) are some examples.

Do any of you know something about Link's attacks that aren't standard?

It's only Marth's up smash. None of his other sword disjoints are listed. The attacks listed for Link is every sword attack with the exception of: Fsmash1, both hits of down smash, up air, down air. (priority of specials aren't listed so idk about spin attack)

@ Lavani : Any ideas? ^

 

[Lavani]

@ Lavani : Any ideas? ^

I mentioned this in the Mechanics/Techniques thread, but △ indicates mixed priority types on the attack.

Looking at Link's jab in Dantarion's data dump, it looks like he has two hitboxes on his sword that clank and a hitbox each on his arm and hand that are transcendent.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I mentioned this in the Mechanics/Techniques thread, but △ indicates mixed priority types on the attack.

Looking at Link's jab in Dantarion's data dump, it looks like he has two hitboxes on his sword that clank and a hitbox each on his arm and hand that are transcendent.

Thanks for that. Very interesting.