Yoshi's potential

[Sinister Slush]

I'm pretty sure either in this thread, the skype group or another thread I said "short hop egg tosses is our new way to camp" cause of the big hop the first one gives and the mobility we have now being able to manipulate our momentum compared to Brawl.

 

[chipndip]

I think this is a perfect summation of my problem with the character. I've noticed that against most characters, in order for me to get a kill at any reasonable percentage they basically have to do something dumb, so if the opponent just plays solid and doesn't take crazy risks I feel like my options to close out a stock are very limited. Yoshi does have very good defense, and most of my wins against decent players seem to come from just playing solid and outlasting them, but it's a risky game to play against the characters who can set up shenanigans because sooner or later they're going to catch you.


I was fooling around with some other characters tonight and I decided to try Pac-Man, and he just has setups for days with his fruits since he can put the fruit out and then act while it's still onscreen, and the various fruits all seem to give him an advantage in different situations. Even though I have way less experience with him, I felt like I had far more control over the pacing of the match.



I will try more short hop egg, but honestly this may be hard to pull off on 3DS, because presumably the move you want to combo into upon landing is Bair, and that's a lot of back and forth motions for the poor circle pad. Honestly, I think a big part of why Mac is doing so well on For Glory is because without the aid of a proper controller it's hard to apply strong pressure with some characters.


2) Yoshi wants to be throwing eggs from the AIR, not the GROUND. Much more liberating and many more angles to throw them with. Also, Yoshi Bomb is an extremely useful KO move that's usually gonna get stuffed by those dumb platforms unless you hit the first part off the ground.

I guess, but you can still do a short hop egg under the platform, it mainly just blocks the falling egg (which is better this time, that's true). As for Yoshi Bomb, I find it generally only kills in 2 situations, both of which are still okay on battlefield

- Opponent whiffs an air attack from beneath you during an airborne chase
- Opponent dash attacks from too far away and grounded bomb beats it clean (this is very useful in the Yoshi Mirror)


I mean, I guess different people have different stage preferences, for example I totally hate Lylat Cruise in PM even though I play Ivysaur and it's conceptually a good Ivy stage, but in general I think Battlefield gives Yoshi more advantage than FD.[/quote]
1) You don't want to combo eggs with b-air. Combo it with n-air or u-air. Sometimes you can straight skip the eggs and go for a short hopped d-air into his shield/unwary offense for good damage/pressure/shield chip.

2) Mac isn't doing that well in For Glory. He's popular, he's good, but he isn't that dominant. There's no online rankings, so we can't track that. Just note that the level of skill of these Lil Macs is not all that impressive.

3) There's cases where you can land Yoshi Bomb, but the platforms makes it much harder to do because you have to hit with the rising part to guarantee the falling part, which is a huge gimp to a major (if not the strongest) KO move Yoshi has (ground Yoshi Bomb) without charging smash attacks, which is what you're complaining about right now. Experiment with the move and find times to land it. If you get better at timing it, you can land it and remove the opponent relatively quicker than usual. A friend of mine who's really good with him (and the game as a whole) and his twin were beating me down and passing me tips. Learned a good bit.

 

[chipndip]

I'm pretty sure either in this thread, the skype group or another thread I said "short hop egg tosses is our new way to camp" cause of the big hop the first one gives and the mobility we have now being able to manipulate our momentum compared to Brawl.

That is true, and that's exactly what one of the twins did against me, among other things. A combination of wearing me down with eggs and well placed d-airs, then finishing me off with timed Yoshi Bombs, u-airs, and b-airs. Short hop eggs are very useful tools for both offense and defense.

Which brings me to a point to make: Why is the Yoshi section all about these stupid momentum glitches? We should have real tips about offense and defense in this section, and approaching different match-ups, not just...glitches. >_>

Granted, Yoshi's not A-1 tier, but he's way better than before. He's actually viable. Let's treat him like he is.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If you mean the Yoshi Lab, that's basically all the silly glitches. My thread has the random info and tips.

Or if offense/defense stuff celes kinda has stuff on his moveset in another thread while Nikes has a thread he's still updating.

 

[Terotrous]

So I played a bunch of Yoshi player matches tonight and I have to say, with stage selection he definitely feels a lot better. In particular, I think Tomodachi Life is a super strong stage for Yoshi, he can control basically the entire floor above him with eggs, the aerial mobility granted by UpB lets him easily recover on any floor he wants, and the low ceiling makes his vertical kills way more dangerous. Also, the platform drops are insane here. If this stage ends up not being banned (it's under discussion right now), I would counterpick this stage every single time.

Yoshi also appears to do fairly well on Prism Tower and Battlefield. I actually don't like Rainbow Road much (despite its apparent similarity to Prism Tower, as some of the layouts mess with my setups and being forced to use double jump to dodge the cars is really bad for him. I also can't say I like Yoshi's Island for him, despite it being his home stage, that long platform interferes with eggs a lot, though being able to do a safe DownB when the platform angles is interesting.

I think I could see Yoshi being high tier now, depending on the legal stagelist (interestingly, this probably means a slightly different tierlist for the 3DS and Wii U versions).

Incidentally, is that post about grab followups still coming?

 

[Nikes]

Someones making a post for grab followups? Mustve missed it somehow, ah well. I was going to have a section for that in the guide under combos and KO setups but still haven't updated that part yet >_>

Obvious ones at this stage are any throw to eggs, Fthrow to dash attack, D/Uthrow to Uair to Nair, and I've been meaning to try Dthrow to Neutral B. Would be kind of surprised if people weren't using these already.

 

[chipndip]

Someones making a post for grab followups? Mustve missed it somehow, ah well. I was going to have a section for that in the guide under combos and KO setups but still haven't updated that part yet >_>

Obvious ones at this stage are any throw to eggs, Fthrow to dash attack, D/Uthrow to Uair to Nair, and I've been meaning to try Dthrow to Neutral B. Would be kind of surprised if people weren't using these already.

u-throw is his best throw to follow up, and that isn't guaranteed at that. Just use throws to reposition people on the stage.

 

[Blackyoshika?]

Egg throws absolutely shut down the bigger players,

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I'm surprised nobody is talking about what a crap having only 1 noticeable height-boost from egg toss is compared to Brawl. Shiri mentioned that the ledge-grabbing mechanics don't work in Yoshi's favor, but if you could edge-hog in SSB4, I think Yoshi would be gimp city.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I've actually mentioned that numerous times.
Having only one good huge Egg toss hop, 2nd one being meh and then 3rd and so on not even being a considered a hop anymore as if using egg toss the 5th time in brawl.

So things like being tossed around all over the place from one side of the stage (offstage) to the other or even just constantly being hit away from the ledge got even worse for us cause of only two hops. (or basically just one)

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I feel like that is THE biggest blow to Yoshi's top-level viability, honestly. If he gets hit out of DJ, which is definitely not that hard, despite his movement speed/mild super armor, it's basically RIP in pepperonis.

EDIT: Also, I don't read everything around here, so I don't know how much this gets talked about, but I just got a horizontal kill with the last hit of dair. Thought that was weird.

 

[ConeZ]

So I played a bunch of Yoshi player matches tonight and I have to say, with stage selection he definitely feels a lot better. In particular, I think Tomodachi Life is a super strong stage for Yoshi, he can control basically the entire floor above him with eggs, the aerial mobility granted by UpB lets him easily recover on any floor he wants, and the low ceiling makes his vertical kills way more dangerous. Also, the platform drops are insane here. If this stage ends up not being banned (it's under discussion right now), I would counterpick this stage every single time.

Yoshi also appears to do fairly well on Prism Tower and Battlefield. I actually don't like Rainbow Road much (despite its apparent similarity to Prism Tower, as some of the layouts mess with my setups and being forced to use double jump to dodge the cars is really bad for him. I also can't say I like Yoshi's Island for him, despite it being his home stage, that long platform interferes with eggs a lot, though being able to do a safe DownB when the platform angles is interesting.

I think I could see Yoshi being high tier now, depending on the legal stagelist (interestingly, this probably means a slightly different tierlist for the 3DS and Wii U versions).

Incidentally, is that post about grab followups still coming?

I don't believe Rainbow Road will be legal anyways :x
Honestly, from the 2 tournaments I have attended, we have only used FD, Battlefield, Yoshi's, Prism Tower, and Arena Ferox as well as Omega Stages.

there aren't that many great stages in this game unfortunately , and it saddens me :/

 

[Shiri]

EDIT: Also, I don't read everything around here, so I don't know how much this gets talked about, but I just got a horizontal kill with the last hit of dair. Thought that was weird.

Jile, that is weird. Still haven't seen that one yet. Tons of stuff to be found, though. Just got a Peach-style double down smash hit by knocking the opponent from the first hit of down smash into the second one. Sounded beefy. Looked cool. Of course, no KO, hahaha.

there aren't that many great stages in this game unfortunately , and it saddens me :/

That's a shame. This game has tons of stages. People should play with more of the stage options the game has. Some awesome stages this go-round. Looking forward to the WiiU version to see what it has to offer.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It has to offer smashville while 3ds doesn't.
That's a step up already.

 

[Terotrous]

That's a shame. This game has tons of stages. People should play with more of the stage options the game has. Some awesome stages this go-round. Looking forward to the WiiU version to see what it has to offer.

Unfortunately, all kinds of potentially good stages are ruined by the presence of an overly strong hazard or whatever else.

I can't believe how much of a missed opportunity Omega Mode is. Rather than just making every stage FD, it should just make it so most stages stay the same but have their hazards removed or are slightly altered to be more competitive. For example, if the Omega Form of Reset Bomb Forest was just the first transformation, it'd be legal, no question. Omega Wily's Castle should just be the same thing but without Yellow Devil. It would also no doubt be legal. Omega Magicant has no Flying Man, Rainbow Road has no cars, etc.


Anyway, back on topic, I'm becoming much more convinced that Yoshi is indeed high tier, mostly because it's becoming clear that a lot of the characters who initially looked quite good have some holes in their game, while Yoshi remains a pretty complete character. That being said, I think Yoshi has some issues vs the top tier characters. Sheik is just straight up better than Yoshi in almost every respect (though she's straight up better than virtually everyone, so he's not alone than this). Her combos are way better, her recovery is much more versatile, and she's faster and better at neutral. Those needles are a problem for Yoshi too. He has no trouble killing her if he can land those hits, but it's hard to win the damage race against her. Little Mac I think is just a straight up bad matchup. Yoshi's kill potential is almost 100% vertical and Little Mac appears to have the best resilience to vertical KOs in the entire game. He can gimp Mac if he can get him offstage, but he has very few tools for doing this, and this makes it easier for Mac to counter those options. And of course there's KO punch, which makes Yoshi's normally fantastic survivability a moot point if it connects. The one top tier character I don't fear at all is Rosalina, Yoshi seems pretty decent at dealing with her, his moves are good at killing Luma while remaining fairly safe, and she is one of the floatiest characters in the game so she dies off the top really early.

 

[Slice~]

This might be a bit out of the current content but:
Am I the only one who feels like people are overhyping Yoshi way too hard?

I mean, yeah, he got a bit better.
But suddenly they are acting like he got a metal mask, a cape and a nifty golden sword... If you know what I mean...

 

[Terotrous]

This might be a bit out of the current content but:
Am I the only one who feels like people are overhyping Yoshi way too hard?

I mean, yeah, he got a bit better.
But suddenly they are acting like he got a metal mask, a cape and a nifty golden sword... If you know what I mean...

Yoshi's definitely no MK, he's just very solid. I feel like he has the tools to handle almost any matchup (except maybe Little Mac and Bowser, who are his two worst matchups IMO).


I'd put him on about the same level as ZSS, Lucario, Greninja, and other clearly good characters. He's not going to dominate the metagame, but you could do very well with him.

 

[ConeZ]

Unfortunately, all kinds of potentially good stages are ruined by the presence of an overly strong hazard or whatever else.

I can't believe how much of a missed opportunity Omega Mode is. Rather than just making every stage FD, it should just make it so most stages stay the same but have their hazards removed or are slightly altered to be more competitive. For example, if the Omega Form of Reset Bomb Forest was just the first transformation, it'd be legal, no question. Omega Wily's Castle should just be the same thing but without Yellow Devil. It would also no doubt be legal. Omega Magicant has no Flying Man, Rainbow Road has no cars, etc.


Anyway, back on topic, I'm becoming much more convinced that Yoshi is indeed high tier, mostly because it's becoming clear that a lot of the characters who initially looked quite good have some holes in their game, while Yoshi remains a pretty complete character. That being said, I think Yoshi has some issues vs the top tier characters. Sheik is just straight up better than Yoshi in almost every respect (though she's straight up better than virtually everyone, so he's not alone than this). Her combos are way better, her recovery is much more versatile, and she's faster and better at neutral. Those needles are a problem for Yoshi too. He has no trouble killing her if he can land those hits, but it's hard to win the damage race against her. Little Mac I think is just a straight up bad matchup. Yoshi's kill potential is almost 100% vertical and Little Mac appears to have the best resilience to vertical KOs in the entire game. He can gimp Mac if he can get him offstage, but he has very few tools for doing this, and this makes it easier for Mac to counter those options. And of course there's KO punch, which makes Yoshi's normally fantastic survivability a moot point if it connects. The one top tier character I don't fear at all is Rosalina, Yoshi seems pretty decent at dealing with her, his moves are good at killing Luma while remaining fairly safe, and she is one of the floatiest characters in the game so she dies off the top really early.

I just wanna say, I don't disagree about most things here, but Little Mac is NOT a Top tier xD
and for gimping, why not nair? All you gotta do is work him to the ledge, f-throw or b-throw him over the side and bair/nair him. or even egg lay him off the side and punish him out of it. I am pretty sure bair and nair will do the trick off-stage against him.

I really don't think Little Mac has that many good matchups because for as fast and strong as he is, it is incredibly easy for any character including Yoshi to get him in the air once per stock, then to force him off stage. If he air dodges or counters, then you read the end of it and punish with say a grab, dash attack, etc. Little Mac might be good at some things, but exploiting his flaws is good :D

 

[Terotrous]

I just wanna say, I don't disagree about most things here, but Little Mac is NOT a Top tier xD
and for gimping, why not nair? All you gotta do is work him to the ledge, f-throw or b-throw him over the side and bair/nair him. or even egg lay him off the side and punish him out of it. I am pretty sure bair and nair will do the trick off-stage against him.

The problem is that Little Mac has no trouble recovering from high up, near the stage (which is where Yoshi's throws put him), he can air dodge just as well as anyone else, and he has the option to either go for the stage or the ledge. He's really only particularly vulnerable when far off stage, at medium or low height. Yoshi's best move for sending him there is unquestionably DSmash, but the fact that you've really only got that one option makes it a bit obvious what you're going for if you run up to him. All he has to prepare for is the run stop / shield drop DSmash / FSmash, if you go for grab instead he doesn't care because he can take grabs all day and never have to worry about dying, you're just building his KO punch for him.

I really don't think Little Mac has that many good matchups because for as fast and strong as he is, it is incredibly easy for any character including Yoshi to get him in the air once per stock, then to force him off stage. If he air dodges or counters, then you read the end of it and punish with say a grab, dash attack, etc. Little Mac might be good at some things, but exploiting his flaws is good :D

This is only true against terrible Little Macs, who constantly throw out unsafe moves. Little Mac has the tools to be super patient and has many very good pokes that are totally safe. Once you see a good Little Mac (I suggest watching Shockwave, it has 2), you'll start to realize that he isn't nearly as easy to shut down as some people think.

Here's a link to Shockwave 4 if you're curious:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFXOgPi6_N5SbLJ3iNgsMbOX2gzdiHT19

 

[Sinister Slush]

Watching the GF of Denti and Bwett.
I honestly don't think Yoshi will have a problem with Mac. It's also too early to be saying anyone is good with any character yet since the game has only been out for a month and a half. Even saying something like Nairo's Robin is good or Trela's Shulk is too soon cause 3DS controls and nobody else (among top players or even soon to be top players for people who mained characters like Sonic Yoshi Sheik etc. that're high/top tier most likely) has a decent grasp of the controls compared to the people that're placing high in tournaments.

It'll show how much the game changes once we're all able to use the Gamecube controller.

 

[Shiri]

Unfortunately, all kinds of potentially good stages are ruined by the presence of an overly strong hazard or whatever else.

Are the stages you mentioned seriously not legal? I can maybe see Magicant because people love to whine about Flying Man, but even Reset Bomb and Rainbow Road? How many stages have people been using for this game...four?

Full disclosure, I don't enter public events for the 3DS version, so I have no idea what stages people have been using/ignoring. I usually just hear lots of complaining. Most of these are stages are fine, I think.

This might be a bit out of the current content but:
Am I the only one who feels like people are overhyping Yoshi way too hard?

This is mostly the result of misinformation and a community (or communities) that does not invest time to discover what non-winning characters have or can do. Yoshi has been "terrible" for a long time, even though he's very good in a vacuum and mostly just marginalized in tournament play because of how ridiculous the upper ceiling characters were. Now that he's had his meaningless limiters removed for the sake of more fun gameplay, all of a sudden he's "amazing." It's just the wave catching up to the tide, so to speak.

 

[Kawaii-Kun]

I think I found something with Yoshi's grounded Egg Throw. If you dash one way, then quickly half-circle the thumbpad upwards to pivot and Up-B in between, Yoshi can do his Egg Throw while sliding a bit, you can do this both facing the original direction you were in or the other way.

 

[shapular]

This might be a bit out of the current content but:
Am I the only one who feels like people are overhyping Yoshi way too hard?

I mean, yeah, he got a bit better.
But suddenly they are acting like he got a metal mask, a cape and a nifty golden sword... If you know what I mean...

I think us new Yoshis see Smash 4 Yoshi in a different way than some of you guys who mained Yoshi in previous games. I feel like you guys see individual changes and think "this is a little better, this is a little worse, etc." whereas I see him as a fresh new character with a lot of tools (and I know what this is like from your end; I think G&W is a bit worse than in Brawl but my friend who mains Luigi thinks he's amazing). I played against a very good Brawl Yoshi a lot, and the way I've been using Smash 4 Yoshi is a lot different from that. To me he feels sort of like a less ridiculous version of Melee Falco, if that makes any sense. He can go in hard sometimes and get some big combos, or he can stay back when he wants and throw out projectiles. He seems like a pretty versatile character somewhat favoring offense to me.

 

[chipndip]

This might be a bit out of the current content but:
Am I the only one who feels like people are overhyping Yoshi way too hard?

I mean, yeah, he got a bit better.
But suddenly they are acting like he got a metal mask, a cape and a nifty golden sword... If you know what I mean...

I have friends that act like that because my Yoshi's good, but one of them doesn't realize that his Shiek now beats my Yoshi due to us sparring so much. Now it's my turn to catch back up to him.

There's so many good characters in this game at the moment. There's really no need to cry "top tier!" at every chance. I think Yoshi's probably gonna be top tier myself, but some people are WAY too pushy about it, and it's annoying when they do it while using other top tier candidates. -_-

 

[Kawaii-Kun]

There's so many good characters in this game at the moment. There's really no need to cry "top tier!" at every chance. I think Yoshi's probably gonna be top tier myself, but some people are WAY too pushy about it, and it's annoying when they do it while using other top tier candidates. -_-

At the moment, there's a Japanese tier list where only 11 characters are above C tier and the tier group with the most characters is D.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If you're talking about that old October 1st japan tier list that's pretty much irrelevant outside of top 5

 

[Terotrous]

Are the stages you mentioned seriously not legal? I can maybe see Magicant because people love to whine about Flying Man, but even Reset Bomb and Rainbow Road? How many stages have people been using for this game...four?

All events have the following legal:

FD (and Omega)
BF
Yoshis
Prism Tower


Some have these stages:

Arena Ferox
Tomodachi Life


That's about it.


Anyway, I still think Yoshi vs Little Mac is bad, but I no longer think Mac is super OP. I think he's just a character who has very polarizing matchups due to his lopsided toolset. In the ones where he wins, he looks almost unbeatable, in the ones he loses, he looks pretty terrible. By contrast, Yoshi is just a super solid character with a very well-rounded bag of tricks, but unfortunately his tricks are generally things Mac has answers to.

At TGC1 (TourneyLocator put this up this week), the commentators said that a good way to deal with Little Mac is just to stay mobile and not play his game (which is to stay on the ground and go for punishes / grabs). That's probably the smart way to approach the fight with Yoshi, though I still think the fact that he resists vertical KOs so much will make it a bad matchup.

 

[Shiri]

Anyway, I still think Yoshi vs Little Mac is bad, but I no longer think Mac is super OP. I think he's just a character who has very polarizing matchups due to his lopsided toolset. In the ones where he wins, he looks almost unbeatable, in the ones he loses, he looks pretty terrible. By contrast, Yoshi is just a super solid character with a very well-rounded bag of tricks, but unfortunately his tricks are generally things Mac has answers to.

At TGC1 (TourneyLocator put this up this week), the commentators said that a good way to deal with Little Mac is just to stay mobile and not play his game (which is to stay on the ground and go for punishes / grabs). That's probably the smart way to approach the fight with Yoshi, though I still think the fact that he resists vertical KOs so much will make it a bad matchup.

I think Egg Lay is one of Yoshi's better/best options in this matchup because it has range, ignores armor and forces Mac into the air. It is probably the ideal move for this matchup, even at higher percents, just because the situation immediately becomes so heavily advantageous for Yoshi à la the old Ice Climbers matchups.

 

[Z-Bone]

Yoshi's definitely no MK, he's just very solid. I feel like he has the tools to handle almost any matchup (except maybe Little Mac and Bowser, who are his two worst matchups IMO).


I'd put him on about the same level as ZSS, Lucario, Greninja, and other clearly good characters. He's not going to dominate the metagame, but you could do very well with him.

Can you elaborate on your opinion of the Bowser matchup? I personally view Bowser as one of Yoshi's easiest matchups. Being so large Yoshi's eggs are practically magnetized to his body, not to mention he is very easy to juggle, land full dAirs, and spike. I maybe haven't played top level Bowsers, but he just doesn't seem as good as people make him out to be, especially against Yoshi.

I much more fear Ganondorf. My hands sweat profusely when playing a good Ganondorf because I know if I make a tiny mistake it could cost me a stock.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Take what Tero says with an atom sized salt grain. He's absolutely crazy still to think Little mac and Bowser are his hardest Match ups.
Also we have threads made for Little mac and I believe Bowser, so take it over there. Some of the things being said like Egg lay against little mac has been said already.

 

[Terotrous]

Can you elaborate on your opinion of the Bowser matchup? I personally view Bowser as one of Yoshi's easiest matchups. Being so large Yoshi's eggs are practically magnetized to his body, not to mention he is very easy to juggle, land full dAirs, and spike. I maybe haven't played top level Bowsers, but he just doesn't seem as good as people make him out to be, especially against Yoshi.

If you're getting loads of juggles on Bowser he's not repping his Dair and DownB enough, as those will both beat Yoshi's juggle options and force you to be more patient, which allows him to land easier. I also have no idea how you're getting forward air through his UpB, it usually won't even trade. UpB in general is a pretty good tool against Yoshi, it's fast and is really good at interrupting his attacks.

I much more fear Ganondorf. My hands sweat profusely when playing a good Ganondorf because I know if I make a tiny mistake it could cost me a stock.

Also true of Bowser and Little Mac as all three hit extremely hard. However, Ganondorf is a lot less maneuverable than the other two so you can dance around him a lot more.

Take what Tero says with an atom sized salt grain. He's absolutely crazy still to think Little mac and Bowser are his hardest Match ups.

So who is it that you think is harder? I don't see you contributing much to this discussion other than to complain about the things that I post.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'd much rather make a one or two line post telling people easier that what you say is silly compared to a 60+ line comment on why you're wrong and make people groan about that post (cause face it, people these days don't read lengthy posts, they either skim or skip completely) and make them forget to read both our posts entirely.

But honestly to answer your question Lucario definitely, ZSS and Sonic maybe.

While Smash 4 made it to where hitstun from moves last so long using your fastest aerial to live longer doesn't work anymore, that's a small nerf to Lucario but it still doesn't help that him getting punished rewards (even more in this game) him and cause of the statement before that affects us too. So Lucario gets stronger and even force pulse now killing people at like 50+% (this is crazy) Yoshi might have a harder time to kill him if we still have as much of a problem landing kill moves on him then we did in brawl.

ZSS buffed all around, she thankfully doesn't get the stun to double dsmash to rack up damage like she did in brawl, but she got more kill moves agility in the air and we lost one of our main spammable moves to mess with ZSS, Bair.

If Sonic is considered High tier this time around. And the fact our Pivot grab was nerfed with that weird animation at the end of it gulping his tongue back in, we might have a problem with Sonic this time around punishing any of his obvious spin dash approaches, since moves for him like Nair or both his spindashes seem stronger and faster. Thankfully don't think Sonic's bair was buffed much in this game so maybe strike Sanic off the list.

I'd add Diddy too, but I won't know how I feel about Dthrow into any aerial the character until I have the game myself.

 

[Terotrous]

I would actually think Yoshi has one of the better matchups against Lucario. Lucario has great recovery and is nearly immune to gimps, but he's not heavy or a fast-faller so he has no additional resistance against vertical KOs. This generally makes Yoshi one of the more reliable characters for killing Lucario and thus he shouldn't often live to the 150% range where he becomes absurdly dangerous. Yoshi's also got solid mobility for avoiding aura spheres and command grabs, and he's heavy enough to take a few strong hits from Lucario and not instantly crumple.

I also don't see ZSS as being especially bad. She's a great character, no doubt, but Yoshi's got the mobility to get around Paralyzer and he can armor out of her juggles with double jump, forcing her to be a lot more respectful with her UpB combos as he could punish with DownB if he escapes. A number of her ground attacks have strong commitment (FSmash, Grab, UpSmash, etc), so Yoshi gets a big punish if he correctly evades any of them and he can punish for pretty substantial damage.

I'll admit I haven't fought or seen a lot of great Sonics yet so I have no specific thoughts on this matchup yet. Ditto for Diddy.


But anyway, I don't really see you giving much reasoning for these matchups being super bad, you're basically just naming high tier characters rather than explaining what part of their gameplan is hard for Yoshi to play around (note that Little Mac and Bowser are likely high tier as well). At least I have a pretty obvious rationale behind my choices, which is that since Yoshi primarily kills off the top, he has to work harder against characters who resist vertical KOs. Little Mac and Bowser are the two highest-tiered characters who have that property, so I think it's a fairly safe bet that these will be among his harder matchups even if you disagree with some of my individual points.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Not giving reasonings?
wut

 

[Terotrous]

You basically just seem to be writing "this character is good" rather than "this character specifically counters Yoshi". For example, your analysis of Lucario doesn't even mention Yoshi at all besides the fact that "Yoshi might have trouble killing him" (which, incidentally, he doesn't). For ZSS, the only thing you talk about is Bair. Sure, Yoshi's Bair is a little worse, but he got lots of other buffs (most particularly far better OOS options) that change a lot of his matchups compared to Brawl.

Obviously good characters are never free, but Yoshi is a good character too. Unless they have some specific counter to Yoshi I don't see any reason to believe the matchup is worse than 5-5.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Wut
I'm typing points that gave Yoshi problems in Brawl along with ways he dealt with the character that were nerfed in someway while they got buffs on most of their **** and minor slap on the wrist nerfs. Granted Yoshi recieved the same treatment with buffs/nerfs, but again just bringing up the main things used against two of the MUs that was nerfed.

Did you pull exactly what I typed in my earlier post and not read it at all? Cause I'm getting this vibe from your past two posts.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm typing points that gave Yoshi problems in Brawl

This game isn't Brawl though, that's the thing. Yoshi's undergone big changes that change most of his matchups (as have some of the other characters, like Bowser). Yoshi may have had trouble killing Lucario in Brawl, but he has a lot more and better kill options now so that problem has gone away. Similarly, characters like ZSS could pressure Yoshi's shield very heavily in Brawl, but Yoshi now has perfectly fine OOS options so that advantage has been removed.


This is why you really need to, you know, actually play the game before talking about matchups. The fact that you say my opinions need to be taken with a huge grain of salt when your analysis of the metagame is still based on Brawl is pretty hilarious.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I bring up brawl a bunch cause it's what happened previously, but I also bring up Smash 4 at the end of my sentences. Well actually, my entire first post had Smash4 ****.

And you're kinda missing the point too, Lucario ZSS Diddy etc. have got huge buffs too.

What I find scary is the fact me not playing the game and my opinions still have more merit than yours when you play the game.

You mention how we need to vertically kill Bowser and Little Mac.
We literally shouldn't be trying to kill Little Mac from the roof lol. Just either try gimping him or even using Dsmash/tilt to hit him off stage. It's infinitely easier on us and less risky just running in and spamming Usmash and hoping he doesn't armor through it.
Bowser vertically is half right, but come on. As Gashi.. no pretty much every Yoshi has said already. Bowser is huge, we rack up damage incredibly fast and we can kill him anywhere, it doesn't have to solely be Vertically.

Edit 1000: Like... I'm trying to wrap my head around this. You're saying Little mac is strong (competitive impressions thread, multiple Yoshi ones etc.) on the ground and he beats us hard enough to be considered a hard counter, yet you want to rush in and challenge him on the ground and kill him with Usmash?
What is going on.

 

[Terotrous]

You mention how we need to vertically kill Bowser and Little Mac.

Uhh, I assumed this would be obvious, but the fact that Little Mac doesn't die from USmash until like 180 means that killing him off the top is not a viable strategy. This means that three of Yoshi's best kill moves, USmash, Uair, and DownB are nearly useless in this matchup. As everyone knows, in Smash, a variety of viable kill moves is important, if you have only one good kill option (FSmash / DSmash are all Yoshi has for horizontal kills), your opponent just has to watch for that one move and it becomes much easier to avoid. My bad for assuming you actually have a basic understanding of how to play the game. I'll try to spell out my points from now on so you don't get confused.

Incidentally, just pushing Little Mac a tiny bit off stage (such as with DTilt or Fthrow / Bthrow) will never kill him or allow you to get a gimp, he still can grab ledge / recover onstage / air dodge just as well as anyone else. He also has a counter in case you try to go for the hardest of reads with charge forward Smash or whatever. To get the kill you need to send him at least fairly far out, which only FSmash, DSmash, or Bair can do (and as you pointed out previously, both FSmash and Bair aren't as good as they were in Brawl).

And yes, ZSS also changed a lot. Which is why it takes more than "Bair isn't as good anymore" to explain why Yoshi vs ZSS would be a bad matchup in Smash 4.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Not gonna bother with the rest of your post, but I will say you must be something else if you're letting a little mac, a very light character, live till 180+%
Especially since you kept going on and on about "yoshi killing early" but then you're letting an easily gimpable light character like mac reach almost 200%.