Meta Wry Mustache Man: Dominating Strategies Discussion

[Zionaze]

Wario can act almost immediately out of a turn around so d-tilt is a good options

 

[TheReflexWonder]

When you say run turnaround dtilt, you are referring to perfect pivoting? @ TheReflexWonder

Shellshifting, effectively.

 

[Steeler]

Squirtle would have been so good in this game thanks Reflex.

 

[Oracle]

Example of using the wheelie hitbox to clank with a move, guaranteeing the wheelie slam kill. Still pretty situational, but useful to know nonetheless

 

[Magik0722]

Squirtle would have been so good in this game thanks Reflex.

What is this a PT reunion?

 

[Superbat]

If wario is as godlike as this song then he might be a new secondary! lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dISuBAGxw4w
National anthem for Tourney Wario mains XD

 

[DJ Arcatek]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but are there any practical uses for D-Smash outside of edge guarding?

 

[Steeler]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but are there any practical uses for D-Smash outside of edge guarding?

It can combo off dtilt and is your best combination of speed and power for a punish when they are right in front of you.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's also a lingering hitbox and puts him low to the ground. It's a pretty good move.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

N-Air's sweetspot hits on Frame 4 (and only on Frame 4 :< ), then the sourspot comes out on Frames 15-38. Because of our solid jump height, the only character that can shieldgrab us after a shorthop immediate N-Air (as in, reflexively, before the sourspot becomes active) is Mewtwo. N-Air only has 12 frames of landing lag, and Wario's horizontal aerial mobility and speed are quite high. All of this means that floating around with N-Air just outside of opponents' immediate range is a relatively strong tool in the neutral position.

Shorthop immediate N-Air's sweetspot can hit any standing character, as well as a large number of crouching ones. Shorthop immediate N-Air's sourspot lingers until you hit the ground, and it can hit any character at any height.

Fullhop immediate N-Air's sweetspot can hit a standing Diddy Kong, as well as anyone taller than him. Fullhop immediate N-Air's sourspot will only hit a standing opponent if you fastfall it, which causes you to have significant endlag, but if you fastfall as soon as possible, it can hit any character at any height before the sourspot ends. Also, after a fullhop immediate N-Air, you can buffer a N-Air that will land on the frame after the sweetspot becomes active. This is relatively safe on shield and has good synergy with Neutral-B against approaching opponents.

In a large contrast to D-Tilt, N-Air's combo potential becomes worse as the opponent's damage increases because it starts sending them too far away to get a guaranteed follow-up. That said, you can still effectively pressure opponents who will likely want to airdodge your follow-up, so it's still useful even at high percents.

I like charts. Here's a chart. I will add the highest percents (before the hit) where the sweetspot doesn't put an opponent into tumble; you cannot DI a move if you aren't put into tumble, so it will reliably combo into the sourspot at these percents and earlier. Yellow numbers denote 50% Rage, Orange numbers signify 100% Rage, and Red numbers represent 150% Rage.

Character | Fullhop N-Air? | Shorthop N-Air when crouching? | Sweetspot-to-sourspot combo %
Mario | Yes | No | 45%, 42% , 35% , 28%
Luigi | Yes | No | 45%, 42% , 35% , 28%
Peach | Yes | No | ?
Bowser | Yes | Yes | ?
Yoshi | Yes | No | 47%, 44% , 36% , 29%
Rosalina and Luma | Yes | No | 40%, 37% , 30% , 24%
Bowser Jr. | Yes | Yes | ?
Wario | Yes | No | 46%, 45% , 37% , 29%
Donkey Kong | Yes | Yes | ?
Diddy Kong | Yes | No | 44%, 41% , 34% , 27%
Mr. Game and Watch | No | No | ?
Little Mac | Yes | No | ?
Link | Yes | Yes | ?
Zelda | Yes | Yes | ?
Sheik | Yes | No | 42%, 39% , 32% , 26%
Toon Link | Yes | Yes | ?
Ganondorf | Yes | Yes | ?
Samus | Yes | Yes | ?
Zero Suit Samus | Yes | No (when crawling) | 41%, 38% , 31% , 25%
Pit | Yes | Yes | ?
Palutena | Yes | Yes | ?
Marth | Yes | No | ?
Ike | Yes | No | ?
Robin | Yes | No | ?
Duck Hunt | Yes | No | ?
Kirby | No | No | ?
King Dedede | Yes | Yes | ?
Meta Knight | No | No | ?
Fox | Yes | Yes | ?
Falco | Yes | Yes | ?
Pikachu | No | No | 40%, 39% , 31% , 24%
Charizard | Yes | Yes | ?
Lucario | Yes | No | ?
Jigglypuff | No | No | ?
Greninja | No | No | ?
R.O.B. | Yes | Yes | ?
Ness | Yes | No | 44%, 39% , 34% , 27%
Captain Falcon | Yes | Yes | 47%, 45% , 36% , 29%
Villager | Yes | No | ?
Olimar | No | No | ?
Wii Fit Trainer | Yes | No | ?
Shulk | Yes | Yes | ?
Dr. Mario | Yes | No | ?
Dark Pit | Yes | Yes | ?
Lucina | Yes | No | ?
Pac-Man | Yes | Yes | ?
Mega Man | Yes | No | 46%, 43% , 36% , 28%
Sonic | Yes | No | 44%, 42% , 34% , 27%
Mewtwo | Yes | Yes | ?
Mii Brawler (small) | ? | ? | ?
Mii Gunner (small) | Yes | Yes | ?
Mii Swordsman (small) | Yes | Yes | ?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I really need to add a Mii Brawler to my copy of Smash 4. Both of my charts have no data on him because of that.

 

[Waroh]

I was fooling around with tripping again, and found that Bowser Jr. has a very VERY long trip animation. Pac-man being second longest (they're really not too far off eachother it seems).

But this allows Wario a guaranteed grab (I think) or Waft after a sour Dash Attack against Bowser Jr. Pac-man is more strict and almost NEVER lands near you after a sour Dash Attack. If he does, you can get a full Waft. If he doesn't, there is always Rose-Scented Waft!

Quick Waft 1 is very little off of being a self-looping infinite on Bowser Jr. You can get a D-smash, Up-B, Grab, Chomp or D-tilt off of it. Bike also seems to cover all of their trip state options. Quick Waft 2 leads to an F-smash against him. Quick Waft 1 and 2 on Pac-man will get you pretty much the same things.

 

[Zionaze]

I laugh so hard when my clueless friends can't escape the not-so-infinite quick waft

 

[KirbyStar64]

As a Wario player, I really like to see Wario's full potential once people use him right.
His down throw always puts people behind in a position where a short hop to back air COULD be possible.
His bite can eat lots of things. His bike, bombs, Thoron, and even Samus's charge shot! The same can apply to Dedede with his inhale!
The bike is predictable at cases, but try to use it if you see an opening while the player's away. And be careful when recovering with the bike, because we all know how punishable that can be, especially if you can't spawn it while falling.
Hos

 

[Roots]

What much do we know about Wario's Uair? I've seen it true combo into itself on grounded characters (mostly Sheik) at early percents but its hitbox is so precise that it doesn't seem worth it to attempt it.
Also, does his jab have no use when compared to his dtilt?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Uair on grounded opponents is only worth it against taller characters, but it's really situational anywho. Doesn't seem safe either.

Jab is probably his worst move but it reaches surprisngly far compared to dtilt so it has its uses. Still, frame 8 for a jab that doesn't link properly and has no potential follow ups is pretty slow.

 

[Rakurai]

I think jab actually reaches low enough to exploit the ledgegrab vulnerability against some characters.

It also lingers for a good amount of time, which makes it all the better for the purpose.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, U-Air is tied with N-Air for fewest landing lag frames (12, which is quite fast). Combined with its reasonable power, it's actually about -8 on shield, which, if you're not getting powershielded, is basically frame neutral.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Jab -> jab2 pops opponents up and has nice kb, so even if there are no guaranteed follow ups, it's an ok way of forcing a reset to neutral position. Jab2 whiffs on some characters at certain %s though. I find D-tilt is what Wario has akin to what other characters have as a jab.

U-air can juggle opponents and it deals good damage (13%, the most out of Wario's aerials). Following on what Reflex said, it's also surprisingly safe to land with it (the animation looks like he suffers more landing lag than it seems, so an opponent who doesn't know this will approach thinking they're safe).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sadly, I'm pretty sure D-Tilt is just a better Jab combo in almost every circumstance. D-Tilt has more range than Jab1 and sets up for more substantial stuff. I really wanted Jab to be at least situationally useful like in Brawl (at higher percents, Jab1 combo'd into Waft and stuff), but everything it does, I'd say you're better off doing D-Tilt -> Grab instead.

 

[Steeler]

I agree. Dtilt is faster with more range, less cooldown, and leads to more guaranteed damage.

 

[Zionaze]

I find myself doing jab 1 into f smashes when jab 2 starts whiffing

 

[Hyper]

Guys we need to start shield dropping, we can land a waft very far doing this, it reaches short characters from really close to the top of the platform.

I made a couple of webms showing this:
This one was made using default waft, I didn't do it as far as I could have.
http://puu.sh/iiZXL/755cca4ace.mp4

This one shows how far you can be to shield drop waft and was made using turbo waft(I didn't want to wait 3 minutes each time to test and I assumed turbo has the same starting hitbox as default)
http://puu.sh/iiZzS/327d554f4f.mp4

 

[Rakurai]

Is there some kind of trick to instantly doing a waft out of shield like that?

I wasn't aware that was even a thing. The quick waft is already fast enough to punish most jab combos with a normal shield drop, so if you can do it with no lag, almost no move is going to be safe.

 

[Hyper]

When you normally let go of shield, you get 7 frames of lag before you can do anything.
With a shield drop however, you drop it instantly and can do whatever you want. Best thing about shield dropping is that you have to hold down so you're already in position to push the B button to Waft.

Zero explains it best in his video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J1Uf5GU_TY

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Potential abuse of invincibility frames similar to Brawl spotdodge incoming:

So, airdodges start up pretty quickly (within 2-4 frames on the whole cast; Wario's is Frame 3) and they only have 5 frames of endlag. The animation takes a decent bit longer than a Brawl spotdodge (Wario's is 32 frames, and the average Brawl spotdodge took 25 frames), but you also get to weave during an airdodge, helping to make up for it.

That's all well and good, but Wario's aerials aren't really well-suited to take advantage of it. However, using the same principle as with this situational Jigglypuff technique (where Wario hits because of good range rather than fast active frames)...

...We can footstool opponents into it with minimal risk of losing said Waft. Full Waft and D-Air both have enough speed and range to hit from a footstool on many characters, and Half Waft (and all strong forms of the custom Wafts) will work on almost the whole cast. Footstools are Frame 1 and actually cancel opponents' grab animations at any point, so someone trying to reflexively grab you will get footstooled if they don't grab you within your five frames of airdodge endlag.

Here's a recent clip of Abadango doing a footstool -> Half Waft. I don't know if he did the option select here, but it couldn't have hurt.

Full Quick Waft hits everyone but Diddy Kong, and all forms of Rose Waft hit the whole cast.

Here's a handy CHART showing who gets hit by what:

Character | SH AD -> FS | FS -> Half Waft | FS -> D-Air | FS -> Full Waft | Air FS -> Full Waft
Mario | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Luigi | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Peach | Yes | No | No | No | No
Bowser | Out of standing grab | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes
Yoshi | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes
Rosalina and Luma | No | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Bowser Jr. | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Wario | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Donkey Kong | Yes | Yes | No | No | No
Diddy Kong | Yes | No | No | No | No
Mr. Game and Watch | Yes | No | Yes | No | Yes
Little Mac | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Link | Yes | No | No | No | No
Zelda | Yes | No | No | No | No
Sheik | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Toon Link | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Ganondorf | Out of grab startup | Yes | No | No | No
Samus | Out of standing grab | Yes | No | Yes | No
Zero Suit Samus | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Pit | Yes | Yes | No | No | No
Palutena | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Marth | Out of standing grab | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes
Ike | Yes | Yes | No | No | No
Robin | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Duck Hunt | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Kirby | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
King Dedede | Yes | Yes | No | No | No
Meta Knight | Yes | Yes | No | No | No
Fox | Yes | Yes | No | No | No
Falco | Yes | Yes | No | No | No
Pikachu | Yes | Yes | No | Yes | No
Charizard | Yes | Yes | No | Yes | No
Lucario | Yes | No | No | No | No
Jigglypuff | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Greninja | Yes | Yes | No | No | No
R.O.B. | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Ness | Yes | No | No | No | No
Captain Falcon | Out of standing grab | Yes | No | No | No
Villager | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Olimar | Yes | No | No | No | Yes
Wii Fit Trainer | Yes | No | No | No | No
Shulk | Yes | No | No | No | No
Dr. Mario | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Dark Pit | Yes | Yes | No | No | No
Lucina | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Pac-Man | Yes | Yes | No | No | No
Mega Man | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Sonic | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Mewtwo | Yes | Yes | No | Yes | No
Ryu | No | Yes | No | Yes | No
Roy | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Lucas | Yes | No | No | No | No
Mii Brawler (small) | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No
Mii Gunner (small) | Yes | Yes | No | Yes | No
Mii Swordsman (small) | Yes | Yes | No | Yes | No

 

[Sari]

I know it's a bit too early, but how do you guys feel about Wario's matchups against Lucas, Roy, and Ryu?

 

[Spinosaurus]

I know it's a bit too early, but how do you guys feel about Wario's matchups against Lucas, Roy, and Ryu?

Pretty impossible to say without any experience.

 

[Rakurai]

I've found that silly boomerang bike glitch to be a convenient way to get the Speeding Bike to stay at the ledge to be used for the bike waft technique.

Granted, your opponent will probably catch on and start trying to destroy the bike once you use it on them a couple times, but a distraction is always a good thing. Obviously not something you'd want to try at percents where you might end up needing the bike for recovery, though.

 

[C4-]

What moves cause a jab reset on a missed tech other than sour spot fair and sour spot dash attack? I'm looking for potential setups aswell. right now ,the only one that could be potentially useful against experienced players would be Nair OoS ( first hit ) then follow up with either of the two sourspots. I've also had bite/ down throws lead to missed techs but they are far more easy to tech than nair because of the trajectory , both grabs release at a higher angle than nair which sends closer to the stage so they have less time to tech . Anyone have anything to add or comment on ?

 

[Spinosaurus]

What moves cause a jab reset on a missed tech other than sour spot fair and sour spot dash attack? I'm looking for potential setups aswell. right now ,the only one that could be potentially useful against experienced players would be Nair OoS ( first hit ) then follow up with either of the two sourspots. I've also had bite/ down throws lead to missed techs but they are far more easy to tech than nair because of the trajectory , both grabs release at a higher angle than nair which sends closer to the stage so they have less time to tech . Anyone have anything to add or comment on ?

There's a thread about it.

Here you go:
http://smashboards.com/threads/wario-and-the-practical-use-of-jab-locking.399461/

 

[SanAntonioSmasher]

This might be mentioned before, or maybe super obvious but there is an easy way to do a backair moving forward when jumping off bike (or any time you want a back air when facing forward in air).

B-reverse a quick chomp. So you can bike off stage, jump off bike, b-reverse chomp, jump, backair, and bike back to stage. It takes some planning, but it seems like a powerful option to kill super early.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You finish turning around faster if you just do another Forward-B while the Bike is still around. The animation where you look around for the Bike is shorter.

Speaking of which, the IASA frame on Forward-B when you don't pull out a Bike appears to be quite variable, and I can't tell what causes it. This would be incredible for B-Reverses in general if we could manage it on command.

EDIT: I figured out at least part of it. I don't know why it happens, but if you're in the animation when you reach a certain fall speed (maybe max normal fall speed?), the animation cancels and you can do whatever you want. This means you can do B-Reverses in this state with pretty much no cooldown, even if it's only at certain points in your jump. From a shorthop, it cancels as soon as you hit the ground, so you can mix up spacing with it as long as your Bike is out.

 

[Waroh]

Hah, I was about to post about that. Leaping off of the bike (more significantly with Burying Bike) when tilting forward midair makes for a nice boost to the B-reverse, as well.

Also somewhat unrelated, we can do a super crawl similar to Diddy Kong's monkey flip by jumping of off Burying Bike towards land and crawling backwards for a moment.

 

[Labernash]

To finish Reflex's footstool chart:

Brawler (small): SH AD > FS, FS > Dair, FS > Half Waft, FS > Full Waft all work. Air doesn't.

Ryu: SH AD > FS, air FS > Full Waft and FS > Dair do not work (one hit of Dair). FS > Half Waft and FS > Full Waft work.

Roy: everything but air FS > Full waft work.

Lucas: Only SH AD > FS works.

 

[Waroh]

I've been trying to incorporate rising full Waft combos into my game as some sort of last resort. It's kind of difficult, though. What with rage and all making it harder to figure out when they may work.

Up-throw to rising full Waft only seems to work on a handful of characters with certain combinations of weight and fall speed (Captain Falcon, Roy, Megaman, etc.) for a window of about 15% (Captain Falcon being 70%~85% in Training Mode) and will not work with even slightly any DI to the left or right it seems.

Falling Up-Air to rising full Waft seems to have the largest window of when it'll work.

Up-tilt to rising full Waft is pretty close to up-throw and it seemingly works on more characters, though not with a very good window of opportunity (Rosalina having a window as small as 52%~55% on Training).

@ TheReflexWonder
I was wondering if you could put together another one of your glorious charts for when falling Up-Air to rising Full Waft, Up-tilt to rising Full Waft and Up-throw to rising Full-Waft can combo and KO various characters. Though I've noticed your charts were more about guaranteed things where they can't DI so I'm not sure if it's in your interest.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@ TheReflexWonder
I was wondering if you could put together another one of your glorious charts for when falling Up-Air to rising Full Waft, Up-tilt to rising Full Waft and Up-throw to rising Full-Waft can combo and KO various characters. Though I've noticed your charts were more about guaranteed things where they can't DI so I'm not sure if it's in your interest.

I test by myself, so that would be a hassle.

As an aside, someone just told me that the Jab1 angle change in 1.08 makes it able to reset people. I don't know what percents they are, but, that's cool.

 

[Waroh]

Gotcha. Perhaps I could try compile something together then.

Now for some random info about Widescrew, is that if you use it from the ground and go completely right or left towards a hill, like the one center stage of Castle Siege, the Widescrew will land before completing.

If you hit someone with the first hit before it cancels, they're sent in the air in a similar way to sour N-Air which can lead to a combo.

If you hit with hits 2~5 and land on the hill, it'll put the opponent right on the floor. Which if they fail to tech, can be followed up on with things such as Waft, F-tilt or even another Widescrew.

I doubt this helps Widescrew in any way due to requiring specific stage positioning, but I just wanted to get the info out there.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

So I was the one who told reflex jab1 reset, as from what I've tried, it can't.

Someone told me at CEO that Dair to up+B is guaranteed, so I should do it a a lot. I'm not sure if it's really a good idea, or true, but if you can chain dair to widescrew together, it might have some great applications, especially since it can kill with decent rage. I ofc mean cancelling dair into the ground after hitting a grounded opponent, not getting the final hit of dair before chaining it into anything.

http://www.twitch.tv/abadango/b/666697810
If you look at 1:33:10 he jumps high up allowing his opponent to feel somewhat safe, and then gets him with a fastfall dair to waft combo. If you can fast fall a dair done immediately after a footstool to chain it to a waft, that'd be incredible. Then the waft would be an option on more characters out of footstooling. I'm not sure if that works off the top of my head. If it doesn't you always have the option of doing what abadango did right here (even though waft works out of footstool on sheik) by going a tad bit higher to allow a fast fall dair (or maybe even nair sourspot?), then you can footstool waft every character, but it won't be a true combo out of a footstool. The downside is they can punish you with an aerial, up-smash out of shield, or powershield grab you. I feel like it's hard to punish after you get foot-stooled though, mainly b/c they're not expecting it.

Then I also noticed Abadango trying d-tilt to SH-buffered nair (a different stream). I don't think it's guaranteed seeing how his opponent barely got his shield out (It hit his [fox's] shield, so I'm not sure it even has the range to be a viable option out of d-tilt, but seeing abadango try it makes me think it does) before the nair hit. Maybe FH Nair to chomp (if they shield the nair's sweetspot and stay in shield) could be an option out of d-tilt.

I know most of this post is just lame theory, so here is one more lol.
D-tilt to footstool (isn't footstooling faster than nair by it being frame 1?)- This might not work if your opponent is too far or may not work for a multitude of reasons.

I never hear talk of wario's jab cancel, but maybe with the new update a jab cancel MIGHT have use with any of the aforementioned follow-ups (screw, SH-nair, footstool).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Widescrew is much too slow to combo from much of anything.

D-Tilt sends people too far away for a footstool follow-up to be realistic, I think. Maybe with a run turnaround cancel, but you're already able to combo it into other things (which I have a chart for earlier in this thread).

Wario doesn't really have a Jab cancel in this game, and as a result, it's pretty much entirely overshadowed by D-Tilt.