Wolf Matchup Thread

The Baron · Apr 6, 2015

So after noticing that we have no real Match-Up thread, I figured that it was about time we created one as right now, it seems like everyone in this thread is kind of a lone wolf (hehe) when it comes to matchups even though I know we have some guides scattered around but none of them are really centered nor up to date. I will endeavor to create a more proper format once I finish a few things but as of right now, I just wanted to post this to get some good discussion going now. Now come my pack, share the insights of your various hunts (that sounded so much cooler in my head).
For the weekly matchup discussions, we will have a community vote for the next character to tackle. A straw poll will be hosted on every matchup thread that you can vote on.

Also give @AuraMaudeGone all your energy for getting this thread cleaned up

Characters:
Under each spoiler will be The Weekly Match Up Thread where that specific matchup is talked about, what it's currently lacking, a general stat and a pseudo tldr of the matchup. If you want to talk about that specific matchup, please try and put it in that specific thread unless there is none in which case post it here and I can start adding to that specific tab. The ultimate goal is to have a centralized discussion for each character, but still have a quick read for those who need it.

Difficulty:
I. Videos
II. Overview:
III. Matchup Analysis:
IV. Stages
Extras

Difficulty:

http://smashboards.com/threads/captain-falcon-vs-wolf-matchup-thread.369731

I. Overview:

Captain Falcon is a fast character who has the potential to kill very quickly with his powerful tech chase game. Here, we discuss key points and basics of the matchup, we will go into analysis later on.

Captain Falcon's Strengths

Strong tech chase capability
Powerful kill move
Fast

Captain Falcon's Weaknesses

Easy to edge-guard
Very combo-able
Sup-par recovery

Key Points:

Need to watch out for raw knees
Never drop an edge guard
Always be prepared to shield
Don't get hit (Isai's words of wisdom)

II. Matchup Analysis:

Neutral Game:

Neutral game is all about getting Falcon off the stage or getting a combo started. Falcon has to work harder than Wolf to kill him - he needs to tech chase successfully and land the killing blow.
As I've mentioned previously, you have to watch out for raw knees, just one will send you off stage and possibly kill you... I'm serious.
Grabs are a good way to get something started, particularly B-Throw and U-Throw, I'll go into this in more depth later.
You can juggle Falcon with shines to get a combo started also.
Lasers are risky business, but can be rewarding. Never use them in an un-safe situation; because a good Falcon will use that as an avenue to punish. Lasers work better on larger stages, I prefer to use them as an approach tool by wavelanding forward with a few of them.
It’s just a huge combo fest, do you best to control space and choke Falcon out with blasters and pressure. Don't get baited because if falcon gets a grab or any hit really, it’s just a few super easy tech chases that will end with either a drop-zone Knee or a Stomp>whatever the hell he wants.
Combo him like any other fast faller, carry him across the stage and hit him off, force him to recover low then take the free edge guard.

Comboing/Punishing Captain Falcon:

You can combo Falcon via several things. You can start by shine juggling him until you can't juggle him anymore, after that you can follow up with U-Air's. You can basically juggle him with U-Air's until he's offstage, which is ultimately where you want him to be.
U-Smash is a good option if Falcon misses a tech, you can normally get 2 in, and then still continue the combo.
Another way to chain U-Air's in via U-Throw, since Falcon is a fast-faller, it's very easy to combo him from this throw.
With B-Throw, you can F-Smash him, which also carries him across the stage. D-Smash also works from this throw.
Dash attack can start combos depending on percent. At low percent, all it will do it start a tech chase opportunity.
Escaping Captain Falcon's Pressure:
Shine OOS is the best option for escaping Falcon's pressure, it gets him away from you and it allows you to reset the neutral.
If you just need him to back away from you, then just use wavelanded blasters backwards

Edgeguarding Captain Falcon:

When edgeguarding Falcon, all you need to do it be consistent. He doesn't have many options.
If he's too far out when he uses Up-B, then just grab the ledge and return to the stage when he's in range to grab
D-air works well whenever he's off stage, even when he's sweet-spotting the Up-B you can still hit the D-air when accurately placed

Recovering against Captain Falcon:

Falcon has several options for edge-guarding Wolf, he has B-air and U-air which are both quick and can gimp Wolf when he's using his up-b. I believe it's better to use side-b to recover against Falcon. However make sure you mix-up your recovery against him.
If Falcon predicts well you will be in for a rough time, and if you make it easy for him expect worse.
Falcon can also ledge hop knee you if you land on stage, so most of the time it's a very unsafe option.
Shine stalling is useful if he's going out there for the weak knee, it can put Falcon in a bad position. Sometimes you will beat him to the ledge and just steal it from him.

Putting it all together:

This is a good matchup for Wolf, but only if you make it.
Keep your edgeguarding consistent.
Watch out for knees.
Zone when you need too.
Pick small stages and don't let him have his space.

III. Stages

Stage wise, go to smaller stages to constrict his movement. If you're losing on smaller stages, you're losing neutral or he is converting off punishes better, and a larger stage won’t help that. Don't worry about blast zones as both character's recoveries are pretty limited by PM standards. Go for your preferred platform arrangements and stage sizes. If you have to leave larger stages un-banned, these ones are okay imo for Falcon to get to:

Battlefield (great neutral stage, obv)
PS2 (great stage for wolf no matter what)
Skyworld (he hates that platform arrangement because it doesn't help his movement, just watch out for him recovering high onto the platforms)
PS1
Lylat (its decent for both characters, most melee players and falcons don't go there though)
Distant Planet (great stage for wolf no matter what, you can camp here if that's your thing, and the platforms don't really let him escape)

Counter Picks:

Wario Ware
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
Green Hill Zone
Metal Cavern
Smashville
Yoshi's Island Brawl

BAN:

Dreamland
Final Destination

Difficulty:
I. Videos
II. Overview:
III. Matchup Analysis:
IV. Stages
Extras

Difficulty:
I. Videos
II. Overview:
III. Matchup Analysis:
IV. Stages
Extras

Difficulty:

http://smashboards.com/threads/wolf-vs-donkey-kong-match-up.376876

I. Videos:
If anyone has anything, throw it at me.

II. Overview:

Donkey Kong is a big heavy-weight with a horrifyingly good throw game. Here, we discuss key points and basics of the matchup, we will go into analysis later on.

Donkey Kong's Strengths:

Forward Throw combos
Powerful kill moves (Neutral B, Fair, Nair, his smash attacks in general)
Surprisingly long range (all tilts, Fsmash, Down-B, Up-B)
Oh dear god do not let yourself get grabbed.

Donkey Kong's Weaknesses:
He's fat, so it's easy to land hits, and even easier to combo due to his weight and size.No projectile/counter/reflectNo vertical recovery

Key Points:

Please don't get grabbed. I cannot stress this enough.
Channel your inner Chillin and D-Air offstage. Even with a meteor cancel, DK's recovery can't save him from being sent down.
He doesn't have an easy way to counter blasters outside of Powershields, so you can laser camp on larger stages.
Just make sure that you don't get predictable; mix up your approach. Use blasters (waveland forward and back), D-Air, Nair>Shine>Grab, etc.
Don't get grabbed.

III. Matchup Analysis:
Neutral Game:

DK will be looking for a throw, so I recommend playing defensively with waveland blasters backwards to keep him away. If you get a hit confirm with a blaster, you can dash attack or grab yourself and pile up the damage.
If DK begins running, be careful. The ending frames of his dash attack have super armor, so he will be able to eat your blasters. At the start of his dash attack, the blasters will clanks instead, giving you more time to run or set up more blasters.
Watch out for DK's long reach and Uair chains. His tilts, Nair, Fair, and Bair have long enough reach to make rush-down approaches difficult without blaster cover, and if your air-to-ground approaches get predictable, then congrats, have fun getting smacked by Uair> Uair> Nair/Punch.
Wolf's Nair>Shine(grab) will be your best friend. Timed perfectly, DK will not be able to react to shield pressure and you will be able to punish him for blocking with a shinegrab.
DK is surprisingly fast, but Wolf is faster. Take advantage of platforms and your superior mobility. This will make it a lot harder for DK to catch you while you can rain D-Airs and blasters at him all you want.
Stay. Away. From Final Destination. You will not be saved if he grabs you. All you'll be able to do is DI and pray to your choice of god/goddess.

Comboing/Punishing Donkey Kong:

B-Throw/D-Throw mix-up into Fsmash works well at low percentages. After the Fsmash, throw out a laser for oki, and keep up the pressure. At Mid > High percentages, Dash Attack normally works out for me. After the dash attack, feel free to keep him in the air with Fair/Uair. At certain percentages (around 70 if he DI's "correctly") after an Uair, feel free to Side-B. Make sure to howl.
(From the Energem thread) B-Throw> Side-B will begin to work around 76%.
Nair>Shine>Nair>Shine>Nair>Shine>Nair>Shine is valid. Keep that monkey crying as you spin to win on hit confirm.
F-Smash/D-Smash over Up-Smash for raw kills. Because of DK's weight, it'll be much more difficult to kill him off the top over the sides; Usmash should be used as a combo tool. Of course, read the situation. If you're at the edge of a stage and there's more distance to the side than the top, go for the Up-Smash, but sending him sideways will let you edgeguard. And edgeguarding means D-Airs.
Take advantage of platforms. If DK tries running away from you, run under him and start Uairing him. If DK begins pressure, run away and take advantage of Wolf's mobility and reset the situation.

Escaping Donkey Kong's Pressure

You outspeed DK. Feel free to run and jump away until the situation is reset.
Shine OoS is always wonderful, but ShieldGrabs work just as well. Be careful with shielding though, since your little bubble won't save you from a grab.
Waveland Blaster backwards gives you more distance and a projectile to protect yourself from the monkey. Don't forget that the blaster has a hitbox before the blaster comes out because of the bayonet on it as well.

Edgeguarding Donkey Kong

Dare him to Up-B. Or should I say... D-Air him! He doesn't have a hitbox on top of him, so smack him into the blast zone and feel good about yourself.
If DK does not sweetspot the ledge with his up-b, you can Fsmash him for the kill.
Be careful. DK's Nair and Fair can take you down with him if you get too greedy and don't react well.
DK doesn't have many options, so really just be smart.

Recovering against Donkey Kong:

Wolf. Recover. Ha. Haaa.
DK has a lot of edgeguarding tools. Fair and D-Air will send you down, while Bair and Nair send you horizontally away. Shinestall, bait him out, and hope for the best.

IV. Stages

BAN:
Final Destination

Difficulty:
I. Videos
http://smashboards.com/threads/wolf-vs-falco-matchup.383890/#post-19027156

II. Overview
Falco is a character with an incredible amount of combo and kill potential on Wolf, along with superior zoning capabilities which will make this one of his tougher match-ups.

Falco's Strengths:
Strong combo game
Strong kill moves
Easy spike
Strong zoning and rush-down with and without laser
Laser

Falco's Weaknesses:

Weak recovery
Very combo-able
Sub-par grab game

Key Points:
Laser cannot be clanked with

III. Matchup Analysis

Neutral Game:

This is all about getting the first hit, if you get a hit before he does you need to make sure you convert it to something positive. Falco can very easily get a lead from a confirm, and is just generally more efficient than Wolf in this match-up
If the Falco is smart, he will start shooting lasers before making a move, in this case; you will have to use whatever you can to your advantage to get to him: your lasers, the stage, powershielding etc
Getting a hit with a move is probably your best option, but a grab can really get something going
Falcos are quite fond of using d-air, but is a fairly laggy move, so it's probably one of the best ways of getting in on him, by baiting it
Falcos are quite fond of shield pressure. When done properly the best escape option is buffering a roll with the c-stick. If they don't do it properly shield-grabs are very powerful.
B-air is Wolf's most useful tool when spacing against Falco. With the lack of a sex kick like Falco's N-air, it's his best option. What I like to do is throw out a laser and then RAR B-air.

Comboing/Punishing Falco:

As Falco is a fast-faller, Shine juggles are a good way to begin combos. A couple of Shine juggles into a Jab then U-throw chain-grab is your go to; and you can lead this into many things.
Grabs are your main way of punishing Falco as they lead into re-grabs and more combos, but most importantly stage positioning. Falcos recovery is very sub-par, and in this match-up is where Wolf has the advantage. Use grabs to get him off-stage and begin an edge-guarding situation.
At mid/higher percentages, you really want to start mixing in U-tilts and weak F-airs into your combo game. This will allow you to convert more damage and into more lethal combos.
Side-b is always risky against the faster fallers of the cast, but it can be done. U-throw Side-b is one I find quite reliable at high percent - it may look a little weird, but they will be in hit-stun for awhile. For the riskier of the setups, Jab reset into Side-b can work, but I'm undecided if it's optimal. F-air and U-air into Side-b also work at higher percentages. There are many more, but those are the most 'standard'

Escaping Falco's Pressure:

As described previously, Falcos are quite fond of shield pressure, and the best way of escaping it is to buffer a roll. If you become predictable with this however, the Falco can start predicting the rolls. He also can start mixing up his type of shield pressure.
One of Falcos main pressure tools is his laser approach game. This forces the opponent to shield, but you still have options available from this. Wavedashes OOS is one of the easier ways to escape this. Then you have power-shielding, which takes a fair amount more practice; but is very good in this match-up. If you have platforms available to you, you can use these to navigate another route to approaching the Falco. Shine can also work for reflecting them as a mix-up, but being predictable with it will get you punished.
Being pressured by Falco is really difficult to deal with and is one of his main advantages in this match-up - extensive preparation and knowledge of how to counteract this is essential to gaining a foothold in this match-up.

Edgeguarding Falco:
Recovering against Falco:
Putting it all together:

IV. Stages

V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:
Don't:
Do:
Tricks:
Tips:

Difficulty: 50:50 - Even
I. Overview:
Fox is a fast character with a lot of pressure potential and early kills. Here, we discuss key points and basics of the matchup, we will go into analysis later on. Firefox = Fox's Up special/recovery; Illusion/Phantom = Fox's side special; Shine/Reflector = Fox's down special.

Fox's Strengths

Extremely Fast
Strong Vertical Kill power in Up-Smash and Up-Air
Very fast mental game with a lot of pressure and maneuverability
Strong Crouch Cancel game

Fox's Weaknesses:

Linear recovery is easily edge-guarded
Light Fastfaller, nearly ideal combo weight
Perfect height and very long hitstun animation for maximum punish
Tech level required to play Fox consistently is very high, this ******* the mental game of the player if it's not second nature

Key Points

The better player will win the neutral game
The aggressor will most likely have the advantage (if playing well)
Efficiency and consistency is key
Wolf can punish Fox harder

II. Matchup Analysis:

Neutral Game

In neutral, Fox is just ever so slightly faster than Wolf, but Wolf has a projectile and significantly better air control and imo better hitboxes. Fox approaches better because a lot of Wolf's approaches can get anti-air Utilted. Wolf's main pressure move, Nair, also doesn't trade well so if both do Nairs at each other Fox will come out on top. Running shines are great for both characters, and both net tons off of grabs as well.
Wolf has to not get grabbed and then he has options deal with approaches. CC>shine is really strong against early% Nair approaches, and wolf has a great DD to get around approaches. If he gets grabbed, its up-throw>tech chase or Usmash/utilt>combo depending on percent.
Since the MU is so volatile, the smarter player will probably win neutral. Its the closest MU you could get to the Fox ditto without it being 2 foxes. Whoever moves and baits better and puts themselves at the least risk will probably win neutral more often. The player with the better tech chase game will come out on top in punishes imo. At early percentages thats what you have to do to make conversions back into a juggle.
Wolf's shine OOS is better than Fox's in this match-up, if Wolf hits his shine it can start a combo or a punish

Comboing/Punishing Fox

B-Throw to F-Smash works very well at low percentages and it also carries Fox very far along the stage, which is exactly where you want him to be.
Jab resets are essential if Fox is ever on the ground. This will most likely happen after a throw. Jab and then continue the combo after the get-up animation.
You can punish many of Fox's approach moves. As you may know, CC is very powerful in this game, so if you CC his approach and then follow up with D-Smash it works well as a counter attack.
U-throw is great for starting up combos, you will want to follow up with double U-Air's; sometimes you will have to do falling U-Air's to follow up consistently.
F-Air is a great move for comboing and juggling fast-fallers. You can chain multiple F-Airs into enders such as Side-B (refer to Chillindude vs. Hax).

Escaping Fox's Pressure

As I have mentioned previously, you can use both crouch cancel and shine OOS in the neutral game, but both are efficient methods to escape Fox's pressure.
Using blaster defensively by wavelanding backwards with it allows you to create space for yourself to breath, this is especially useful if the Fox is the aggressor.

Edgeguarding Fox

Fox's recovery is pretty linear, so hitting that D-Air spike is made much more possible. If you predict well enough you can just kill Fox instantly.
If you're holding ledge, you basically need to predict whether Fox will go straight horizontal or upwards (or for the ledge if some crazy mind games are going on), so you just need to be at the right place at the right time.
B-Air gets the job done nicely, you can go out really deep with it and it comes out quickly so you can recover back to the stage in time.
If you predict his recovery well enough, you can get back on stage and get the hitbox of U-Smash which will send Fox really far.
U-Air also has the same sort of hitbox as U-Smash, but I would say is a bit harder to actually hit.
Also if you're skillful enough, shine can be used to stage spike Fox if placed well. Shine can also be comboed into many of Wolf's aerials off stage.
D-Smash can be used to punish missed sweet-spots.

Recovering against Fox

Wolf's recovery is pretty much the same as Fox's, he just has more range and it's better in general. However that doesn't mean you can't be smarter than Fox about it. Fox's edge guarding is weaker than Wolf's, however he has a shine spike, which if aimed correctly will more than likely kill you.
You will want to mix up your recovery with sweet spotted side b's and Up B's aimed in different directions.
Shine stalling will also help to confuse the Fox player if you're having trouble getting back to the stage.
Most of the time you really don't want to be off stage, because a good Fox won't drop an edge guard.

Putting it all together

This match up is mainly even, you have to make the most out of your punishes and win the neutral game against Fox.
Don't drop edge guards.
Don't let Fox pressure you for free.
Pull some sick combos, that's why you're playing Wolf and not Fox.

III. Stages
Ultimately, Stage striking, banning, and Counterpicking comes down to personal preference. People will also have conflicting opinions as to which stages are better or worse for certain matchups. Use this as a rough baseline, understand the reasons why each stage may help hurt a particular character, and learn what your opponent might want to ban/counterpick against you. Different Tournaments use different stage lists with different sets of starters and different amounts of stage bans.

Both characters do well on every single stage, so CPing is 100% personal preference. That said, I think the player who is better on the aggressive end of the MU would do better on much smaller stages, so If you are controlling the pace of the match with aggression and consistent conversions, I would go to Wario ware, Yoshi's island, GHZ, etc.

If you aren't the aggressor most of the time, you NEED to pick a stage that can give you some breathing room. (Thankfully PM has a lot to chose from). Dreamland is great although you won't be getting kills with Fairs at all. Skyworld is good if you want the platforms to recover on to, and are okay with giving that option to Fox. Both of these 2 have large open areas under the top platform that allow for chain grabs and easier juggles as well. FD works if your shtick is grabbing and converting off those, or really enjoy tech chasing and are confident on converting well off them when there are no platforms. PS2 is great if you need running room, but it opens up the option for fox to go for up-throw>uairs to kill which aren't the best option normally in spacie dittos.

I would personally try to strike to fountain/battlefield/smashvile because they are great neutral stages and can let you get a feel of the opponent and who is going to be the aggressor more of the time.

Counterpicks:
Dreamland

Even:
Everything

Difficulty:
I. Videos:
II. Overview:
III. Matchup Analysis:
IV. Stages
Extras[/B]

Difficulty:
I. Videos
II. Overview:
III. Matchup Analysis:
IV. Stages
Extras

Difficulty:Even
I. Videos
II. Overview:
III. Matchup Analysis:
IV. Stages
Extras

Difficulty:
I. Videos
II. Overview:
III. Matchup Analysis:
IV. Stages
Extras

Difficulty: 55:45
I. Videos

II. Overview
Wario is a heavy floaty who excels in his great aerial game, having one of the best air speeds in the game in addition to possessing some very good tools in the air such as his U-Air and N-Air.

Wario Strengths

Good aerial drift
Fantastic Nair
Good juggle tool (U-Air)
Fairly decent tech chases
Potential OHKO's using waft (above 40-ish percent)
Good command grab in Chomp

Wario Weaknesses

Short stubby arms mean that he can really lose out to disjoints and decent projectiles
Great combo food, especially for our hero, Wolf
Predictable and short range recovery makes it easy to guard
Side smash and Side B, while lethal, are very punishable on whiff

Key Points

Laser to force his approach or to cover yours as there isn't much he can do about it
Respect the bite. It's got a large hit box and can lead to really good conversions and tech chases on wolf
Angle your shield downward slightly if being shield pressured on the ground as D-smash will shield stab
Wolf's D-Smash is very good kill option against Wario
While not the best edge guarder, you don't particularly have to be to edge guard wolf, so make sure you don't get knocked off stage, else you will have a hell of a time getting back

III. Matchup Analysis

Neutral

Lasers are part of your BnB here. Use them to cover your approaches but don't get laser happy as the startup can be punished by Wario’s shoulder tackle
Getting the first hit is key as Wario is a great combo weight for you
Watch out for shoulder tackles. While not entirely safe, they're pretty quick to come out and can catch you off guard if you don't respect them
Dash attack is hilariously unsafe, and shouldn't be used for approaches unless you know there is not anything Wario can do about it
Respect the waft. If you see he has one charged, don't change your play completely, but be safer as that can really turn a game around if it connects
DON'T GET GRABBED

Punish

Standard shine -> Nair pillars and shine -> D-Air pillars work wonders against Wario
Energems (shine into side b) is doable starting around 70 - 80 %
D-Air shine is also pretty much guaranteed for the most part at those percentages
Back throw starts just about all your combos and can also lead into side b at higher percentages provided they don't DI right
Same with forward throw though at lower percentages, tech chasing may be more optimal

Escaping Pressure

Shine OOS is your best friend. Not only gets Wario off of you but can also lead into combos due to Wario's floaty nature
Always angle shield downward. D-smash shield stabs and can lead into a tech chase opportunity for Wario
Mix up your techs as Wario can tech chase fairly well with side b

Edge Guarding

Play it safe and simple and just grab ledge. No need to chillin this guy. His recovery is fairly linear and slow, so an edgehog should be fairly easy to do
Bair beats shoulder tackle if spaced correctly, so if you see Wario trying to recover with it, a nice foot to the face should make him reconsider

Recovering
Unless you can land on a platform, recovering high is a bad idea. With how mauch landing lag there is on fire wolf and wolf flash, wario can easily just shoulder tackle you back off, putting you in the same position again
Go for ledge as often as possible. While still rough, recovery isn't impossible from that angle
If you don't see any safe avenues, just try and hit him. Many won't see it coming, and unless it's cc'd, it's relatively safe unless it's with wolf flash in which case he might actually die from it

IV. Stages
So this MU is around 55:45 in wolf's favor. I've played it quite a bit, however not as much as i would have liked. There are a few things that you guys might not know too much about when it comes to wario:wolf, so I'll explain them here

First thing is probably the biggest factor of the MU, that is Wario's 0-70% CG. Much like Pikachu, Wario can effectively 0-death wolf off of a grab (also if you get grabbed at high% then you pretty much die to waft), and even assuming worst case scenario off of the after CG punish is a free edge guard. Even in the absence of this CG, such as on stages like BF, Wario still has an easy time tech chasing on platforms due to his unique ability to no impact land onto the majority of platforms on neutral stages, making it cakewalk for him to jump up and carry on the punish. Wario's signature air mobility can make it tough for wolf to use strings on Wario.

This doesn't mean Wario has it all good. Bites usefulness is diminished due to wolf's fallspeed, making it only good for starting tech chases. Wario I feel has a worse time punishing wolf than most in absence of the CG. What really pushes the MU in wolfs favour is probably obvious to you guys, but wolf's neutral game with lasers and his pressure game with shine and aerials counter Wario hard. For those that don't know, Wario has some of the worst front and back rolls in the game, making it hard for him to escape shine pressure. Wario is combo food for wolf, and his recovery is down air bait for wolf.

That's pretty much it in terms of Wario. I pretty much just tried to run through all the different key points of the MU, which is probably why it seems a little incoherent.

Difficulty:
I. Videos
II. Overview:
III. Matchup Analysis:
IV. Stages
Extras

Difficulty:
I. Videos
II. Overview:
III. Matchup Analysis:
IV. Stages
Extras

pkblaze · Apr 6, 2015

The Falco boards are discussing to Wolf MU at the moment. Any thoughts?

The Baron · Apr 6, 2015

pkblaze said:
The Falco boards are discussing to Wolf MU at the moment. Any thoughts?

Haven't played many falcos, but from what I've seen, it feels pretty even, maybe slightly in wolf favor. Falco definitely has better lasers and has good conversions off of them, but wolf combos just as hard if not harder though it takes fairly fast fingers and good di reads. Waveshines are great for keeping him n the air at low percents, and can be followed up with other options once he falls out of them like dair for techchases and nairs if you are confident you can keep the combo going. Downsmash wrecks this man and if wolf gets a small stage like warioware where falco can't fire as many lasers, bird is going to be what's for dinner. While falco can't really go too deep for edge guards against wolf, if he can force the wolf to recover high, the landing lag on up b and side b will screw the wolf over. Overall, I'd say the matchup is still pretty even unless you take falco to a stage where he can't just laser you in which case I would say wolf takes it but not by too much. Also warioware is best stage. Always go there if you can against falco.

PieSandwich · Apr 7, 2015

My two cents for the Fox matchup: Overall, it's in Wolf's favor. Due to the odd nature of Wolf's lasers, Foxes tend to trip up against them, and the fact that you can SHL into a wavedash makes it even odder. They're both very solid characters, but Wolf just seems to win it out in my opinion. Sorry I can't word it better, the matchup just makes sense. Can't figure out how to word it. XD

XF_Awkward · Apr 8, 2015

Fox can just nair through lazers, no? Fox may not have better punishes on wolf than wolf does on Fox, but he undoubtedly has a better neutral game than Wolf, and his gimping game is clearly much better. I personally put Fox as the one who wins the MU. Just because Foxes aren't playing the MU as well as they could be right now doesn't necessarily mean its in Wolf's favor.

PieSandwich · Apr 8, 2015

XF_Awkward said:
Fox can just nair through lazers, no? Fox may not have better punishes on wolf than wolf does on Fox, but he undoubtedly has a better neutral game than Wolf, and his gimping game is clearly much better. I personally put Fox as the one who wins the MU. Just because Foxes aren't playing the MU as well as they could be right now doesn't necessarily mean its in Wolf's favor.

Sorry, I really didn't explain what I was trying to say well. I'm not the best at explaining stuff.
I'm just pretty confident he wins. XP

The Baron · Apr 8, 2015

PieSandwich said:
Sorry, I really didn't explain what I was trying to say well. I'm not the best at explaining stuff.
I'm just pretty confident he wins. XP

I'm inclined to also agree with xfakward there. Fox can simply overpower wolf super easily through nair and bair, go through lazers negating most of wolfs neautral and punish wolf arguably harder with only uptilts, Uairs and upsmashes. Not to mention that wolf gets sent so far back from shine that there is no way to recover from shine spiking and the fact has to put himself below stage to wolf flash effectively, a move that get's beat out by almost every other move in the game, means that he is in a super vulnerable spot for it. The match up isn't unwinnable, but I feel that wolf loses this matchup 40-60.

PieSandwich · Apr 9, 2015

The Baron said:
I'm inclined to also agree with xfakward there. Fox can simply overpower wolf super easily through nair and bair, go through lazers negating most of wolfs neautral and punish wolf arguably harder with only uptilts, Uairs and upsmashes. Not to mention that wolf gets sent so far back from shine that there is no way to recover from shine spiking and the fact has to put himself below stage to wolf flash effectively, a move that get's beat out by almost every other move in the game, means that he is in a super vulnerable spot for it. The match up isn't unwinnable, but I feel that wolf loses this matchup 40-60.

After further consideration, I believe you're correct. Sorry, I hadn't even thought to consider some of what you said at first! XP
Thanks for pointing those out.

TimeMuffinPhD · Apr 10, 2015

We already have a match-up thread series which is somewhat on-going. I think we should stick to that and delete this thread. For the sake of keeping things clean. Wolf vs Falco for example: http://smashboards.com/threads/wolf-vs-falco-matchup.383890/.

The Baron · Apr 12, 2015

TimeMuffinPhD said:
We already have a match-up thread series which is somewhat on-going. I think we should stick to that and delete this thread. For the sake of keeping things clean. Wolf vs Falco for example: http://smashboards.com/threads/wolf-vs-falco-matchup.383890/.

Sorry about the late reply but the point of this thread was to keep the discussion in roughly one place, and once I finish formatting the first post, be able to put in tips into each individual character part in the first thread breaking it down into neutral, punish, etc similar to the zelda thread. Also the match up thread series is fairly lacking as it should be a weekly thing but we've been kind of stuck on wolf v falco for about 4 months. If you want this deleted that's fine but I do think we need all match up data condensed into one place as it makes it easier for new players to find it and it can be easily edited in case something changes via patch or some other unknown factor.

TimeMuffinPhD · Apr 14, 2015

I understand the need for organization and keeping everything in one place, however if we have everything in one place like so things become cluttered. I think both would be good. Use this as a hub for general discussion with links to each individual match-up page were details can be focused. What does everyone think?

Chef2 · Apr 15, 2015

I was gonna make a match up thread with a simple system so you could find the character quickly. I think having one match up thread is nice but often times info gets lost once you get to later pages.

If you simply had a system such as "the first word of each post is the character your discussing with a W in front for wolf, it would make it easy to control+F search that character. E.g. WCaptain Falcon." Why add the W? Well people mention other characters even when they are talking about a specific one, so adding a W ensures when you search you only see the posts that are specifically related to the character. It's easy to do and works.

Thoughts on that?

The Baron · Apr 15, 2015

Chef2 said:
I was gonna make a match up thread with a simple system so you could find the character quickly. I think having one match up thread is nice but often times info gets lost once you get to later pages.

If you simply had a system such as "the first word of each post is the character your discussing with a W in front for wolf, it would make it easy to control+F search that character. E.g. WCaptain Falcon." Why add the W? Well people mention other characters even when they are talking about a specific one, so adding a W ensures when you search you only see the posts that are specifically related to the character. It's easy to do and works.

Thoughts on that?

I think that this idea and what time muffin suggested are both fantastic ideas. We could probably combine both ideas into one thread. The match up discussions specifics using the w format and then consolidate the info in this or a brand new thread that has links to the specific discussion.

XF_Awkward · Apr 19, 2015

Whatever the case may be, it'd be nice to have legitimate information flowing this way again. Wolf boards seem to be stagnant. Perhaps we could fill up a thread like the ones you guys described by doing a day/week discussion on good ways to handle the matchups. More activity, nawmsayn

Gunslinger · Apr 19, 2015

In regards to Wolf against Fox/Falco, I think it's pretty even. The point of Project M I think is to make as many balanced matchups as possible, and the spacie matchups are a particularly good example of that. Wolf has a ridiculous combo game once he gets his waveshines going, but Fox/Falco can easily cc shine at low percents, leading into their classic punishes. However, if you notice them cc'ing, shine grabs will stuff that and give you some juicy down throw tech chases. The laser is useful against Fox, but I like it more-so as a movement option rather than a camp option because he can just nair through them. Not to say you shouldn't camp at all, it can help you secure stage positioning and force an approach if you're in the lead, it's just that it's not as effective because your projectile is clankable. For Falco I wouldn't rely on the gun too much unless Falco's offstage, you just can't let Falco breathe. Anyway if we actually want to start a matchup thread, we should focus on what Wolf has to do in the matchup rather than focus on who wins.

The Baron · Apr 19, 2015

XF_Awkward said:
Whatever the case may be, it'd be nice to have legitimate information flowing this way again. Wolf boards seem to be stagnant. Perhaps we could fill up a thread like the ones you guys described by doing a day/week discussion on good ways to handle the matchups. More activity, nawmsayn

I guess I will start reforming the thread then later this afternoon so it can accommodate both ideas. Then we can start posting the weekly match up threads in earnest while also keeping this as a central hub for the discussion with links to the super specific discussion as TimeMuffinPhD and chef suggested

TimeMuffinPhD · Apr 19, 2015

This just gave me an idea for another use for this thread. I can mention where certain match-up guides are lacking. Right now the Falco once is lacking in these areas:

Escaping Falco's Pressure:
Edgeguarding Falco:
Recovering against Falco:
Putting it all together
IV. Stages
V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:

I just added a fair amount to 'Neutral Game' and 'Comboing/Punishing'. This is a community effort so share your knowledge, I know I'm not the only Wolf out there.

The Baron · Apr 19, 2015

TimeMuffinPhD said:
This just gave me an idea for another use for this thread. I can mention where certain match-up guides are lacking. Right now the Falco once is lacking in these areas:

Escaping Falco's Pressure:

Edgeguarding Falco:

Recovering against Falco:

Putting it all together

IV. Stages

V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:

I just added a fair amount to 'Neutral Game' and 'Comboing/Punishing'. This is a community effort so share your knowledge, I know I'm not the only Wolf out there.

Will be noted. Also I may need some help getting some formatting done but I will cross that bridge when it comes

TimeMuffinPhD · Apr 19, 2015

The Baron said:
Will be noted. Also I may need some help getting some formatting done but I will cross that bridge when it comes

Message me if you need anything man.

TimeMuffinPhD · Apr 20, 2015

Was just wondering, but why are there multiple spoilers for some characters and then just one for others?

Also here are the guides that still need to be added:

Fox - http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-vs-wolf-matchup-thread.369250/
This guide is looking good. Could use a few tweaks, but mainly needs parts added to the Tips/Tricks section.

Falcon - http://smashboards.com/threads/captain-falcon-vs-wolf-matchup-thread.369731/
This guide is also looking good. Also needs adds to the Tips/Tricks section, not sure if we should keep this?

How do you want to do the weekly match-ups? Before I just did it on match-ups I knew more about/how important a match-up it is. Perhaps we should do a vote. Another method is via a randomizer, but I don't think that's beneficial.

The Baron · Apr 20, 2015

TimeMuffinPhD said:
Was just wondering, but why are there multiple spoilers for some characters and then just one for others?

Also here are the guides that still need to be added:

Fox - http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-vs-wolf-matchup-thread.369250/
This guide is looking good. Could use a few tweaks, but mainly needs parts added to the Tips/Tricks section.

Falcon - http://smashboards.com/threads/captain-falcon-vs-wolf-matchup-thread.369731/
This guide is also looking good. Also needs adds to the Tips/Tricks section, not sure if we should keep this?

How do you want to do the weekly match-ups? Before I just did it on match-ups I knew more about/how important a match-up it is. Perhaps we should do a vote. Another method is via a randomizer, but I don't think that's beneficial.

Yeah, trying to fix that spoiler thing and thanks for the guides. Also, Voting seems good. Could have a poll every thread, and have those viewers of the thread vote on that for the next week.

TimeMuffinPhD · Apr 20, 2015

May as well get it started ASAP. Vote for what you want to see the most next:

Part 1 - http://strawpoll.me/4169245

Part 2 - http://strawpoll.me/4169252

The Baron · Apr 20, 2015

TimeMuffinPhD said:
May as well get it started ASAP. Vote for what you want to see the most next:

Part 1 - http://strawpoll.me/4169245

Part 2 - http://strawpoll.me/4169252

Thanks for these. Changed title to note that the polls are up and added them to main post.

Chef2 · Apr 20, 2015

When do polls close?

TimeMuffinPhD · Apr 20, 2015

Chef2 said:
When do polls close?

Let's say when I wake up tomorrow. I wanna try get this done by the end of the week so I wanna get it started.

The Baron · Apr 20, 2015

Wondering if for the tldr, should I jsut put everything that is in the original post in the spoiler box, or just the key points and strengths and weaknesses. suggestions?

TimeMuffinPhD · Apr 20, 2015

The Baron said:
Wondering if for the tldr, should I jsut put everything that is in the original post in the spoiler box, or just the key points and strengths and weaknesses. suggestions?

I think both of those things would be good to know from that perspective.

The Baron · Apr 20, 2015

TimeMuffinPhD said:
I think both of those things would be good to know from that perspective.

kay-o. Updating continues

Chef2 · Apr 20, 2015

May be a small group here doing this boys but I'm sure once we get the snowball rolling others will help. Looking forward to having a solid database of match up info

TimeMuffinPhD · Apr 21, 2015

So I don't think ill have my computer for a couple days. Wario was the winner of the poll so if someone could put that thread up that would be awesome.

The Baron · Apr 21, 2015

TimeMuffinPhD said:
So I don't think ill have my computer for a couple days. Wario was the winner of the poll so if someone could put that thread up that would be awesome.

That is unfortunate. I will have the thread up by tomorrow afternoon. College has been hectic

The Baron · Apr 26, 2015

Alright, tears mode. Does anyone know how spoiler tags actually work. Captain falcon refuses to cooperate and I want to punch him

TimeMuffinPhD · May 5, 2015

I think we should get this thread stickied, I don't know how, but we should.

TimeMuffinPhD · May 5, 2015

The Shiek matchup thread has been created, start sharing that knowledge! http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-week-2-sheik.401645/

X0dus · May 8, 2015

Who wins the Ivy vs. Wolf match-up and why?

TimeMuffinPhD · May 11, 2015

This week's matchup thread is now up, it's Toon Link! http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-week-2-toon-link.402336/

Also the Shiek matchup thread from last week needs these areas covered ASAP -

Comboing/Punishing Sheik:
Escaping Sheik's Pressure:
Edgeguarding Sheik:
Recovering against Shiek:
Putting it all together:
IV. Stages

V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:
Don't:
Do:
Tricks:
Tips:

The Baron · May 11, 2015

TimeMuffinPhD said:
This week's matchup thread is now up, it's Toon Link! http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-week-2-toon-link.402336/

Also the Shiek matchup thread from last week needs these areas covered ASAP -

Comboing/Punishing Sheik:
Escaping Sheik's Pressure:
Edgeguarding Sheik:
Recovering against Shiek:
Putting it all together:
IV. Stages

V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:
Don't:
Do:
Tricks:
Tips:

K. I'll have a draft on those last points written up tonight based on the thread discussion and will send them to you for approval

Chef2 · May 12, 2015

For sheik combos, I find you can shine->dair her twice (remember to full hop as sheik goes higher than species and delay the dair slightly so it doesn't hit as a rising dair and instead hits at the apex or maybe even slightly falling so it combos better to the next shine) and she'll be in non tumble hit stun the whole time. Yes di away saves her and forces a riskier follow up like dash attack but it's worth trying people aren't 100% with di especially with a 1 frame move with only 4 frames of hitlag to di during. After that another shine can be done with a waveland down and then you can honestly dash attack and up smash juggle (maybe some uair) her to like 60-100 (with plats for the higher numbers) and then side B or fair or bair etc.

Sheik can also be wave shined a few times at only like 0-10% and be in hitstun long enough to hit the floor (at 15% sheik has a few frames where she is out of hitstun before touching the ground, this is essentially the third shine). This means at low sheik percentage sheik can be shined 1-2 times and be forced to tumble to the ground, meaning a tech chase, or even better, a knockdown. Sheik can be jab reset and then is at the perfect percent to up smash juggle 2-3 times and be at 60-80 and ready for a uair carry to the edge or side b or bair whatever the best option based on di and platforms etc is.

Remember to strive for big combos when at centre stage or can't use an attack to gain positional/edge guard situation. But if you can get sheik off stage that's what you want to do since we can get her recovery pretty good (I'll talk about that below). We can shine sheik into fsmash or dmash to get her off stage into a gimp situation as true combo from 0% (yes zero) to like 50%. Di away doesn't even save her since fsmash goes so far so fast and can be cancelled out of a run for the higher percent di away. Fsmash is also weird and sometimes has that strange hitbox that just pushes them off and into fall (don't know much about this but it's gimped people for me). Also, shine bair pushes sheik a good distance. Point is getting sheik off stage is good.

When she is off stage, grabbing ledge if she can't just double jump back on is the best option. When she has to up B and can't explode you (the hit box is after she "jumps" and vanishes) the safe option is ledge dash. If sheik goes on stage well you can punish any you want really depending on percent. If she goes for ledge oh well you still have positional advantage. The hard read is to hold the edge and hope she tries for it. This nets a KO but if your wrong you can't punish that hard but you can still ledge drop double jump and hit her with an aerial or ledge dash and do something too. If she can explode you while hanging just roll and usually you can set a quick punish in like grab or a smash attack if sheik tries for the stage.

The Baron · May 13, 2015

Rough draft of the rest of the shiek stuff. Any changes?

Comboing/Punishing Sheik:

Shine -> Dair (Full hop dair)
If she Di's out, go for a reset (dash attack, grab)
Waveshine from 0 - 10%.
Tech chase off of b-throw and D-throw
Uair and fair juggles since she has a hard time getting down

Escaping Sheik's Pressure:

If she's fishing for a lot of grabs, don't be afraid to spot dodge to get out of it or, if you've got the timing down, shine before it gets out
DI'ing out is pretty much a must as all her attacks lead into fair which will kill you, so make it as hard to follow up as you can
Optimize and be unpredictable with your techs. Shieks love their D-throw tech chases and your tech roll is pretty short so she can get some things off of reaction

Edgeguarding Sheik:

Hold ledge and laugh. Withthe amount of landing lag on her recovery, and the fact that she doesn't have much way of threatening you on the ledge, you should easily be able to punish her when she goes to the stage or just hog her if she goes for ledge

Recovering against Shiek:

Cry
Recovering against shiek is hard but not impossible. All of her options out prioritize or beat your two very meager options making this very rough
Sweet spot if you can, as that's the only guarunteed out you get against getting edgeguarded
If you can flash back on quickly do it, but don't put all your stock in this. YOu can still get punished on stage and genre savvy shieks will call your attempts if you get too predictable
Nothing beats needles. Nothing. Ifyou get needles your dead in which case refer to the first bullet pint
Up B is pretty slow, so if you know shiek like edgeguarding via fair, try to flash back in.
If she prefers nair then you can make it back but you will probably take a lot of damage coming in
in short, refer to bullet point one

Putting it all together:

Play neutral as hard s you can. You can win it, and once you get your punish take it far as one grab from shiek can be a stock.
Hold stage when edge guarding and don't be put into situations where you're trying to recover
Space blaster carefully and don't get too laser happy or else death awaits

IV. Stages
Pick

Wario Ware(Personal Bias)
GHZ
FD

Ban

FoD
Battlefield
Dreamland(personal Bias)

V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:
Don't:
Do:
Tricks:

TimeMuffinPhD · May 13, 2015

The Baron said:
Rough draft of the rest of the shiek stuff. Any changes?

Comboing/Punishing Sheik:

Shine -> Dair (Full hop dair)

If she Di's out, go for a reset (dash attack, grab)

Waveshine from 0 - 10%.

Tech chase off of b-throw and D-throw

Uair and fair juggles since she has a hard time getting down

Escaping Sheik's Pressure:

If she's fishing for a lot of grabs, don't be afraid to spot dodge to get out of it or, if you've got the timing down, shine before it gets out

DI'ing out is pretty much a must as all her attacks lead into fair which will kill you, so make it as hard to follow up as you can

Optimize and be unpredictable with your techs. Shieks love their D-throw tech chases and your tech roll is pretty short so she can get some things off of reaction

Edgeguarding Sheik:

Hold ledge and laugh. Withthe amount of landing lag on her recovery, and the fact that she doesn't have much way of threatening you on the ledge, you should easily be able to punish her when she goes to the stage or just hog her if she goes for ledge

Recovering against Shiek:

Cry

Recovering against shiek is hard but not impossible. All of her options out prioritize or beat your two very meager options making this very rough

Sweet spot if you can, as that's the only guarunteed out you get against getting edgeguarded

If you can flash back on quickly do it, but don't put all your stock in this. YOu can still get punished on stage and genre savvy shieks will call your attempts if you get too predictable

Nothing beats needles. Nothing. Ifyou get needles your dead in which case refer to the first bullet pint

Up B is pretty slow, so if you know shiek like edgeguarding via fair, try to flash back in.

If she prefers nair then you can make it back but you will probably take a lot of damage coming in

in short, refer to bullet point one

Putting it all together:

Play neutral as hard s you can. You can win it, and once you get your punish take it far as one grab from shiek can be a stock.

Hold stage when edge guarding and don't be put into situations where you're trying to recover

Space blaster carefully and don't get too laser happy or else death awaits

IV. Stages
Pick

Wario Ware(Personal Bias)

GHZ

FD

Ban

FoD

Battlefield

Dreamland(personal Bias)

V. Tricks, Tips, Do's and Don'ts:
Don't:
Do:
Tricks:

Seems to be all good. I think it would be easier if people who wanted to add to the guide would format like this, I barely have time to add my own thoughts, never mind format someone elses

. I'm also thinking about adding a colour coding concept, which would allow people to see who added what.

Wolf Matchup Thread

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

Smash Rookie

Smash Cadet

Smash Rookie

Smash Apprentice

Smash Rookie

PhD in time travel and muffins.

Smash Apprentice

PhD in time travel and muffins.

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

Smash Cadet

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

PhD in time travel and muffins.

Smash Apprentice

PhD in time travel and muffins.

PhD in time travel and muffins.

Smash Apprentice

PhD in time travel and muffins.

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

PhD in time travel and muffins.

Smash Apprentice

PhD in time travel and muffins.

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

PhD in time travel and muffins.

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

PhD in time travel and muffins.

PhD in time travel and muffins.

Smash Apprentice

PhD in time travel and muffins.

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

PhD in time travel and muffins.

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