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Will this happen or not?

IronChief

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
319
Location
Falmouth, Maine
I just went to a tournament this past weekend ran by KoreanDJ called "No Money Matches For Everyone 4" and rule number nine of the tournament was NO WOBBLES OR YOU ARE DISQUALIFIED! Do you guys think more tournys are gonna do this overtime and just finally banned it? Like to hear what you all have to say ty.

~ Iron Chief
 

zuloon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 28, 2006
Messages
415
Why don't they ban shine spikes while they're at it?
 

Red Exodus

Smash Master
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Dec 7, 2006
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Hey guys, no comboes, if you juggle you get banned too. Hell let's ban touching the controller too!

It's only a matter of time before they turn bak on items or unban banned stages.
 

Giggidax

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 13, 2007
Messages
774
Location
Virginia Beach, Virginia
if any tournament bans wobbling then u might as well ban waveshining, and other techniques. ex : wall drillshine infinite

IMO wobbling shouldnt be banned. the freeze glitch is another story tho. i hope MLG doesnt ban wobbling or anything of the sort.
 

IronChief

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
319
Location
Falmouth, Maine
that kinda shocks me since kdj is one of the few people who know how to get around it. its not hard to get around it actually lol.
Thats what i was surprised about as well if i ended up to face him there was no way in hell i would of beaten him even if i was allowed to wobble.

~ Iron Chief
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
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better to ban in advance than whine about it afterwards

if you have a problem with not wobbling, then don't sign up for the tournament; not every tournament has the same rules, and it's not that huge of a deal
 

wWw Dazwa

#BADMAN
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Feb 23, 2006
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maine
Pound 2 is also banning Wobbles. I don't exactly agree with the rule, but I can't say I'm truly affected by it.
 

IronChief

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
319
Location
Falmouth, Maine
better to ban in advance than whine about it afterwards

if you have a problem with not wobbling, then don't sign up for the tournament; not every tournament has the same rules, and it's not that huge of a deal
You got it wrong with the whining part i was just surprised to see KOREAN DJ ban the wobbles if anything he is the one whining. It does not matter if there no wobbles i just chain grab dthrow/dair FTW!

~ Iron Chief
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
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You got it wrong with the whining part i was just surprised to see KOREAN DJ ban the wobbles if anything he is the one whining. It does not matter if there no wobbles i just chain grab dthrow/dair FTW!

~ Iron Chief
well that's exactly what i'm saying (at least partially)

i meant it's better that the tournament director come out and ban wobbling before it starts than have people whine about getting wobbled during the tournament and discredit your victory

as for who bans it, it doesn't make a big difference; i bet KDJ was considering more peoples' opinions than his own when making this decision
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
BRoomer
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It's gonna be gone soon. Accept this sad fact and go back to practicing your other chaingrabs :(
 

Card

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 19, 2001
Messages
1,237
Location
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
the only people it affects bigtime are those who picked up ICs only because of wobbling
Quoted for Truth.


There have been pro IC players (Chu, Trail, Meep, etc...) who made it to high-end power ranking ratings without using the Infinite since the games release. It's only been recently where the infinite was popularized by Wobbles that we have seen a huge influx of "wobbling" in the tournament scene, and gotten tournament directors actually putting rules on "No Wobbling".
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Messages
1,936
Location
Sweden
What is considered wobbling and who judge?, there´s no way anyone can prove that a ftilt/dtilt in a grab is wobbling since it needs perfect timing, and how many times is it considered that ftilting/dtilting is counted for wobbling, 1 ftilt instant lose the game?, it needs alot of practice and most people don´t consider learning it since it´s kinda situational (need nana to be close)
I´m trying to learn the wobble perfecly for use in tournaments only, and will use it less overtime the better I get..
 

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
1,495
Location
Oregon
Yay, the IC's are balanced again.
Balanced? So as soon as the ICs got a broken technique of their own it had to be removed to make them balanced? Even with wobbling ICs are at best top 5.

I'm going to host a tournament and ban shining for Fox and Falco to make the game more balanced.
 

Mic_128

Wake up...
Administrator
BRoomer
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I like how IC's were garbage before Wobbling and without wobbling IC's can't win.


Oh wait...

As suggested, either play without wobbling or don't enter the tournement where is't banned. Problem solved.
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
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Balanced? So as soon as the ICs got a broken technique of their own it had to be removed to make them balanced? Even with wobbling ICs are at best top 5.

I'm going to host a tournament and ban shining for Fox and Falco to make the game more balanced.
go ahead, see what kind of turnout you get

can you really not see the difference between banning wobbling and banning shine?

ICs are fine without wobbling, get over it or go play some other character
 

KevinM

TB12 TB12 TB12
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IDK i mean its no huge loss to me since i don't main them competitively but still to ban it seems idk scrubby... its a technique its well known and since its good you ban it?..idk it just seems wrong
 

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
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go ahead, see what kind of turnout you get

can you really not see the difference between banning wobbling and banning shine?

ICs are fine without wobbling, get over it or go play some other character
Dude **** you. "Get over it or play another character"? What is that ****? You can use that "reasoning" for ANY GIVEN TECHNIQUE that an organizer finds arbitrarily bannable.

I was obviously being facetious about hosting the tournament. Read a book.

Even with wobbling the Ice Climbers are not the most broken character in the game. At best they are top tier. The argument that there were good ICs before wobbling is irrelevant. Yes, ICs can still be good without wobbling. Fox would probably still be top tier even without his shine. It doesn't matter. My comparison of wobbling to shines was not that they were equivalent, but that banning either is equivalently justifed--i.e., not at all.

Smash players are a bunch of scrubs.
 

Dragon_Hawk

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
1,133
Location
Toronto, Canada
I don't understand why the sheer presence of a broken tactic in one character must be banned. I mean, progressively, smash has gone through several stages in its general (I hate using this word) metagame as each overpowering tactic was found. Sheik used to be top tier with her chain throw and whatnot in older tier lists, but then we discovered the power of the waveshine and how overwhelming a technical Fox could be. As such, we've had several people change their mains to a space animal, learn a space animal, etc. Would it be so much to say that: "ICs are broken now, just like Fox go learn how to play them." People didn't mind making the transition to Fox, why should ICs (or a character that counters ICs - more on that below) be any different? Is it that we're lazy and have grown attached to the tier list or it the principle of the infinite? The moral belief that no combo should be guaranteed. After all... it's very often posted that there are no "true combos" in smash and that improvisation is key. So is it that wobbling breaks that no-true-combo mindset that makes it dirty? Or it is the fact that it's "cheap"?

Overwhelmingly, it's the former. From what I gather, it's the presence of an unbeatable combo that makes it horrible. And to some degree, I agree with this; I'm a little torn on the issue. Yes, the ICs have an unbeatable combo at their disposal that is completely indestructable when pulled off correctly. Short of pausing the game to throw off rhythm, which isn't allowed, there's nothing you can really do about a wobble within the game's limitations.

However, what I would like to know, most importantly of all, is whether or not the wobble actually goes as far as to hurt the smash metagame in general. Let me elaborate.

The overwhelming damage of Sheik's chain grab alone is more than enough to make 90% of all low tiers useless. It has been said that if Sheik was removed from the game that nearly all low tiers would be more viable because that's one less matchup. So in that sense, Sheik is actually very constricting as a character because a properly executed chain throw is, for all intents and purposes, a 90-135 damage grab on quite a bit of the cast. It's not a 0-death like wobbling, but then consider her other options and her solid edgeguarding. It's more like a 0-90% or so with an edgeguard opportunity.

Sheik is not banned, however, despite her harm to the viability of quite a bit of the cast, because despite all this (on top of being the closest thing we have to a Marth counter) she is not dubbed broken. Because she only does even versus the top tiers on the whole.

The Ice Climbers are apparently different. On the whole, they only do slightly less than even versus the top tier. Less than even? How so? Fox and ICs are even, Falco vs ICs are even in some players' books and minor advantage in others but as a whole the matchup is by and large considered even (most) or ever so slightly imbalanced (some). Versus Sheik they are the only true Sheik counter in the game with a decent advantage and versus Peach/Marth (and the mid tier Samus) they do poorly.

Or do they?

A great deal of why the Ice Climbers' Wobbling is hated is my belief that it hasn't been allowed to be fully integrated. When I say that, we haven't taken a look at the matchups that ICs are traditionally poor and taken into consideration what wobbling changes. There's still, I feel, a great preconceived notion that Samus and (moreso) Peach should eviscerate Ice Climbers but with the wobble available do they? Have we looked at these matchups from that persepective. Let's analyze Marth. If he F-smashes too close, the ICs grab him and he dies with no effective rebuttal. He simply dies. The matchup begins to look less disadvantageous (although still difficult). But what about Peach and Samus? More importantly, is it even possible to analyze these without overestimating or even underestimating the wobble?

I think it's that we actually don't know how powerful the wobble truly is that prevents us from making an educated decision on the matter. How often have we been told, those of us that wobble, that without using it we would've surely lost against Marth, Peach, whoever. I think that's part of the problem. These generally accepted counters, like all the characters in the game, fall to this tactic. It's effectively a 0-death and one of the few true ones in the game that isn't ridiculously situational. So how much do Peach and Marth and the others really counter a good wobbling Ice Climber? How even are these matches in actuality? How often have we said, "I used to be destroyed by Peach's d-smash and turnips but now I've started wobbling and it's a lot easier." The number is staggering.

Sadly, I don't think it's just the Ice Climbers that's missing out on this. It's everyone. Wobbling probably was the only way the tier lists were every going to be rewritten and now it's vanishing in professional circles. It's not anyone's fault, as many of us know that ICs were quite good before the wobble (what other mid tier boasts a good matchup on Sheik and goes even at worst versus the spacies?), but having said that... it's still sad to see the only way the tiers were ever going to change, possibly the last real chance for a big shift in the overall makeup of players, just dying out with no real chance.

But alas. There's no point denying it, like Wobbles said, it's going to be gone soon. It won't affect me too personally, since I never bothered to learn wobble until about two months ago (I wanted to be able to pivot desynch because it was more useful for my style) but it's saddening to see something that useful, that potentially changing going out.
 

Shai Hulud

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Excellent post. I think you hit the nail on the head. The current tier list is just so established that the top players don't want to see it changed. Even if I grant the premise of the anti-wobblers' argument, i.e., that wobbling makes the Ice Climbers unbeatable except by a few characters, all I can say is SO WHAT?

Fox has no counters. Falco has no counters. Sheik has no hard counters. If the IC vs. Samus and IC vs. Peach matchups change from being hard counters to soft counters, again--so what? At most it means ICs are top tier, and why shouldn't they be?

I still get ***** by Peach, Samus, and Marth. Marth can kill Nana at 0%. It's ridiculous, but I don't call for banning Marth because I'm not a scrub.

Didn't the NORCAL pros decide that wobbling should be legal? And now apparently some East Coast pros are banning it. A Smash schism--how poignant.
 

Red Exodus

Smash Master
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I think I'm subconsciously pyschic. My first real main was Falco, then I switched to Fox for some reason, then I picked up Shiek and stopped playing as her for some reason [bare in mind I kept Fox], then I played Marth and finally ICs. I didn't play as Peach so I didn't get all of the top/high tiers.

Since I joined these boards I see people talking about how broken those said characters were [I only learned how good Peach was when I came here].

Anyway, wobbling shouldn't be banned, just don't get grabbed or kill Nana. If they ban wobbling they'll have to ban waveshining.
 

1048576

Smash Master
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Oct 1, 2006
Messages
3,417
IC's can Wobble 25 charactes. Fox can waveshine like what, 10? In order to battle effectively against the waveshine, you can DI. Also, realistically, the waveshiner will mess up. With the Wobble, the only recourse is to pick the Ice Climbers. If you are equally skilled to the Wobbler, you will get grabbed four times. It's bad when the only recourse in countering a character is to pick that same character. To counter Fox, you can pick Falco. To counter Falco, you can pick Peach. To counter Peach, you can pick Marth. To counter Marth, you can pick Sheik. To counter Sheik, you can pick Fox. This is balanced. To counter IC's with Wobble, you can only really pick IC's because even Peach will get grabbed. It takes approximately the same mistake to get grabbed as it does to get d-smashed. If you get d-smashed, you don't automatically die, though. Yes, the IC's have lost tournament viablility, but they can still compete. They can still infinite chaingrab at least as many characters as Fox can infinite drillshine, and it's still much easier. And their smash atttacks still do 34 damage together. This is balance.
 

1048576

Smash Master
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A good Ice Climber player would put up some kind of resistance to you killing Nana.
 

pockyD

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the "you will get grabbed" excuse is horrible; wobbling comes from much more stringent conditions than a stray grab

just to be clear, i don't think wobbling should be banned, but for any given tournament, i will obviously respect the tournament-maker's wishes and not whine about it if he's made his rules clear in advance; and i don't really wobble anyway so it doesn't directly affect me
 

Red Exodus

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I can picture someone playing ICs and spending the whole match going for a wobble, nothing else, only wobbles.

I can't wobble yet but I've seen it in vids. The only place I would be able to use wobbling [when I learn it] would be against my friends since there aren't any tournaments at all around here.

Well they might ban wobbling, but at least there's still chain grabbing, it looks harder to do than wobbling but at least it's a substitute.
 

KevinM

TB12 TB12 TB12
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Honestly people just make it sound like a stray grab leads to wobbling.. wobbling is hard to set-up and hard to keep a perfect rhythm going why do you think theres that huge discussion on how to wobble?

I say keep the technique and it shouldn't happen
 

choknater

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choknater
lol, funny thing. there is only ONE ic player that is actually skilled enough to use it effectively. scratch that, TWO if you count chudat.

seriously, banned or not, who is gonna feel threatened by a scrub IC who couldnt set it up anyway? even if it was banned, chu and wobbles are still gonna ****.
 

1048576

Smash Master
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If chu and wobbles still ****, all the better. Anyway, wobbling isn't difficult at all. In fact, for me, it was easier than learning how to JC a grab. For an infinite, this is way too easy. Wobbling is only hard to set up if the opponent refuses to shield, in which case you can still **** with jab to grab combos and 34% desynced smashes and blizzards. I say the technique epitomizes broken and cheap, and this degree of brokenness and cheapness warrants a banning, just like an overpowered card in a TCG. I think that many people posting here are underestimating the "human" factor. Yes, if you play a perfect control Fox you won't get grabbed. However, all it takes is a seven frame opening for the grab and subsequent Wobble. At low percents, Popo can d-throw-nair until Nana arrives, and at high percents, Popo can just headbutt until Nana arrives. Seven frames is like a tenth of a second. That's like how long it takes to blink. If every character had an equitable move, then I'd agree that the Wobble should stay, but other characters don't. Wobbling is so much more overpowered than anything else we have right now that it warrants a ban, IMO.
 
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