Smash Wii U Wii U is hackable - Will there be mods again?

[Cassio]

PM improved on Brawl. That's not something hard to do. As far as I'm concerned, a balanced cast, ability to DI out of all throws and giving the victim control of whether they are released on the ground or in the air out of a grab (not only ruining 100% guaranteed followups, but also adding more mindgames) are the only things I need for a good competitive Smash game. Mostly the first two. Brawl failed on all three fronts. PM changed that.

Sure, I agree this was pretty dumb (though oddly specific) for the characters it ruined. I see you main wolf in Brawl. But most characters didnt have a problem with CG's and grab releases and if they did people just switched characters. Your issue boils down to the games balance in this case, which I agree is a strength in PM. But Brawl also had more depth in its punish and approach game which is important to many people, so it has its strengths too. Its why you cant say PM is an improvement.

In any case smash 4 looks like it removed chaingrabs completely.

I'm not saying that once you play PM, your mind suddenly opens up. I'm just saying that people get better with time (and for some, with age as well). If you didn't play any Smash game competitively much and then switched to PM which you played more frequently and showed a greater level of interest and dedication than before, a formerly bad player will likely improve. I've been in the competitive scene for about 2 years now but it wasn't until a few months ago (which was about halfway into my time spent with PM) where I started to feel a genuine desire to get better and also work on ironing out playing habits and the like.

Maybe, I feel like PM in general doesnt really cater to improving fundamentals, which is why we dont see PM players who improve through PM come back and do much better in other smash games.

Except that in PM and Melee you can DI every throw meaning that there is always at least a possibility of escape. Brawl's like "you got the muscle memory to keep this going? Good. GG m8."

Reacting to throw DI isnt really difficult so you can only escape if the opponent messes up.

Project M must have improved SOMETHING from Brawl if people are liking it so much. And no I don't mean just the pros.

-Balance
-Movesets
-Chaingrabs
-Tripping
-Game speed
-Character control

The game is more balanced, but attempting to balance slow characters with melee physics has made the game...weird. Game speed is preference overall. Not sure what you mean by movesets although this is likely preferene too, they were a lot more diverse in Brawl imo and feel to fanservicy in PM. Chaingrabs are still in PM. Tripping was dumb but not game breaking, definitely an improvement.

On the other hand I feel PM isnt a challenging game compared to other smash games and hands a lot of things to its players. This isnt necessarily bad, but it explains why it attracts the players it does too.

): As a fan of Nintendo's stuff I generally don't want to have to buy things used but honestly if this is another case where Competitive play isn't good then I can't support the game. I'd like to, but honestly if there is no good competitive play I'll just drop smash for all future installments.

It is sad to even think that despite how far the community has come and all the feedback that the game wouldn't change enough to be competitive.

Alright so Im not saying this to be mean, but I think every post ive read from you is notably uninformed and useless for how general they are. Its a problem because you keep repeating the same false generalized points in multiple threads to multiple people. In comparison; Silent Hell, Rascal, and others attempt to support their positions and/or create discussion. My hope is that the quality of your post should improve, and if not that they are understood to be of poor quality by readers.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

That is the point i'm at now i love the series and i have loved it since n64 and bought them all but brawl left a bad taste in my mouth and now the series seems to become less competitive each installment. Even before i knew about the scene i just played it with friends and family competitively i always found the mechanics fun until brawl.

Becomes less competitive with each installment? Really? There's only been one entry that has gone backwards in terms of popular competitive play and Smash 4 has clearly been designed, at least in part, with competitive play in mind. Smash U will certainly be more competitive than Brawl; I think that much is very safe to state at this point.

 

[Cassio]

Becomes less competitive with each installment? Really? There's only been one entry that has gone backwards in terms of popular competitive play and Smash 4 has clearly been designed, at least in part, with competitive play in mind. Smash U will certainly be more competitive than Brawl; I think that much is very safe to state at this point.

Honestly, I dont think either of you three (Senario, Renji, SA-Y) understand what competitive really means. What can be said more accurately, is that Smash 4 was designed more with the competitive scene in mind.

 

[Renji64]

Honestly, I dont think either of you three (Senario, Renji, SA-Y) understand what competitive really means. What can be said more accurately, is that Smash 4 was designed more with the competitive scene in mind.

Let me word it better then. I'm not confident the game mechanics will be compelling enough for me to play it competitively. Due to the last installment and the series creator mindset.

 

[Bladeviper]

): As a fan of Nintendo's stuff I generally don't want to have to buy things used but honestly if this is another case where Competitive play isn't good then I can't support the game. I'd like to, but honestly if there is no good competitive play I'll just drop smash for all future installments.

It is sad to even think that despite how far the community has come and all the feedback that the game wouldn't change enough to be competitive.

but it all depends on your definition of good. IMO it looks like it will be good for competitive play just by the fact that they brought back combos and removed the rng parts that made people angry. Its not going to be like the other games and I don't know why people thought it was going to be as none of the games have been like the others 100% so far

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Sure, I agree this was pretty dumb (though oddly specific) for the characters it ruined. I see you main wolf in Brawl. But most characters didnt have a problem with CG's and grab releases and if they did people just switched characters. Your issue boils down to the games balance in this case, which I agree is a strength in PM. But Brawl also had more depth in its punish and approach game which is important to many people, so it has its strengths too. Its why you cant say PM is an improvement.

In any case smash 4 looks like it removed chaingrabs completely.

Whilst I can't speak for the game's balance for obvious reasons, I see this as a golden moment for Sakurai. It's clear he's making an effort to improve and acknowledge some of Brawl's problems and change them in Smash 4. We've seen the changes to edge mechanics to remove (or at least nerf) planking as a strategy and indeed, throws appear to have more base knockback to prevent regrabs.

So know we've come full circle back to the topic at hand, instead of me ranting and arguing with someone in the BBR (whilst I may act like an all-knowing deity, I think it's obvious that you have more expertise in what makes Brawl what it is). There probably won't be another PM if all goes well. Also, as I'm sure someone would have already said over these past 12 pages, the PMBR don't want to make another PM anyway. But I can still see other mods happening, it's pretty much inevitable.

 

[Joe73191]

I think most people are against the idea of another PM for a few reasons. 1. They don't want it to be necessary. They want Smash 4 to be so good it doesn't need a PM. I think everyone wants Smash 4 to be good, but if its not at least there is something to fall back on. 2. They disagree that Melee mechanics make for better smash. In which case you also should be against the original PM. 3. They just like being against something, for the simple reason that they can oppose those that are for it.

But those who say they want Smash 4 to go unaltered and stay in its pure form, must also hate the idea of the original PM because it goes against Brawl's original pure form. To those who say it insults Sakurai because he worked so hard they must also be against the original PM because Sakurai worked so hard on Brawl too.

To be against a PM Wii U basically requires you be against the original if you are a logically consistent person. What I think is just so telling about people's feelings is that no one would bat an eyelash if people mentioned a Brawl Minus type mode for Smash 4. (I know some will contradict this and say "I would be against a Brawl Minus mod" people love being against something and people love proving others wrong so they would say this just to be against what I am saying and to just prove me wrong even if they would not have been against Brawl Minus for Wii U originally.) No it's because it's PM. Why the PM hate? Because it's the competitive mod, it's the popular and successful mod.

I have noticed that the competitive hate is strong and people don't like to acknowledge the accomplishments of the everyday person. A big company like nintendo makes a game and everyone MUST love it because the great nintendo made it. Some group of random people make a mod and everyone is against it because to acknowledge someone's accomplishments means that they must acknowledge the work and brains and reality behind it. It's the same reason people are against competitive players. To acknowledge their accomplishments means acknowledging their ability and people condemn all forms of ability. They think it somehow lessens their own significance.

 

[Cassio]

Whilst I can't speak for the game's balance for obvious reasons, I see this as a golden moment for Sakurai. It's clear he's making an effort to improve and acknowledge some of Brawl's problems and change them in Smash 4. We've seen the changes to edge mechanics to remove (or at least nerf) planking as a strategy and indeed, throws appear to have more base knockback to prevent regrabs.

So know we've come full circle back to the topic at hand, instead of me ranting and arguing with someone in the BBR (whilst I may act like an all-knowing deity, I think it's obvious that you have more expertise in what makes Brawl what it is). There probably won't be another PM if all goes well. Also, as I'm sure someone would have already said over these past 12 pages, the PMBR don't want to make another PM anyway. But I can still see other mods happening, it's pretty much inevitable.

I know Brawl wasnt your cup of tea, and I didnt really go to deep into it because itd take an essay, but excluding its poor balance Brawl has a very deep level of high/top level play which I feel also produces outstanding players with strong fundamentals, better than any other smash game imo. Biggest problem is you have to go through a lot of BS to reach that point and even then the game can be really exhausting, so its not something your average player is going to try to achieve. I think sometime this summer Ill try to explain this more.

Let me word it better then. I'm not confident the game mechanics will be compelling enough for me to play it competitively. Due to the last installment and the series creator mindset.

Understood. Although Sakurai and Nintendo tend to be misunderstood too. I read a book on Nintendo once, between that and various interviews its clear their main concern in making sequels is that it differentiates itself from its predecessors (aside from a few rare cases).

To be against a PM Wii U basically requires you be against the original if you are a logically consistent person. What I think is just so telling about people's feelings is that no one would bat an eyelash if people mentioned a Brawl Minus type mode for Smash 4

It really depends on the purpose. Making mods for fun is one thing and I dont think anyone would be against that. Itd be like making a Project 64. The idea behind this thread is that smash 4 requires something to "fix" it, as if PM "fixed" brawl. But PM neither "fixed" brawl nor is it likely that smash 4 will require a mod for this purpose. PM for the sake of PM (because it contains things you like or think are fun) I dont think anyone is against.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

Honestly, I dont think either of you three (Senario, Renji, SA-Y) understand what competitive really means. What can be said more accurately, is that Smash 4 was designed more with the competitive scene in mind.

Apologies if I was unclear; your final sentence is exactly what I'd intended to say.

 

[Senario]

Honestly, I dont think either of you three (Senario, Renji, SA-Y) understand what competitive really means. What can be said more accurately, is that Smash 4 was designed more with the competitive scene in mind.

Because personal attacks solve everything! Look, I understand what competitive means. I'm not only part of the Smash bros community but I also play other competitive games like marvel and blazblue. Smash 4 seems to have had some considerations but you can tell Sakurai is resisting putting competitive elements in the game or just simply not doing his research.

trying to discredit me and others to get your point across is shoddy arguing just like if I said "you can't say that the game is competitive because you aren't part of the competitive community and don't understand it." It doesn't work like that.

Edit: as a note I think nintendo is trying their best. At least NoA but dealing with Sakurai who seems to be the stubborn hus way or the highway type is probably difficult.

 

[JV5Chris]

What can be said more accurately, is that Smash 4 was designed more with the competitive scene in mind.

They've always had the competitive scene in mind, but it is in the context how they impact that middle audience.

When you think about both Brawl and Smash 4, the changes reflect shifting perspectives and desires of the wider smash audience across the web. If anything about the design caters to the competitive scene, it's because they successfully got the word out, making it a broader issue.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Oh boy, it would be amazing to see BRSTMs used for Smash 4--

Wait, a Project M for Smash 4?

 

[Fishbowl]

There's not going to be a lot of people downloading mods, because of the risk of bricking their expensive Wii U's, or having them IP banned or something like that.

But as for the concept of it? Sure, why not? My personal philosophy is that people should be allowed to play how they want to play, especially if they have the means to do so.
The real question is whether or not such mods should be promoted in tournaments. It's too early to say, though. I have a feeling that Smash 4 will be satisfying enough on it's own, but if it isn't then of course the mod will prevail due to popular demand. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But let's wait and see, yah?

 

[Silent Hell]

Oh boy, it would be amazing to see BRSTMs used for Smash 4--

Wait, a Project M for Smash 4?

I can't tell if this is serious or sarcasm.

 

[FirestormNeos]

I can't tell if this is serious or sarcasm.

It's exaggeration for the sake of comedic effect. I don't like the idea of a Project M 2: Electric Boogaloo for the Wii U, but I want to make someone laugh, so I put in a picture that looks funny while not being the polar opposite of what I want to see happening.

So, to answer your question of "are you being sarcastic," the answer is both yes and no.

 

[nessokman]

Smash was never meant to be competitive. Melee was only competitive because the community MADE it that way. Brawl wasn't competitive because the melee crowd wouldn't embrace the change and make it competitive. If the community will play it and give it time to develop, it will be fine.

There is no need for a new project m, there was never a need for one in general.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm going to outright say that I'm biased, at least in this sense: PM improved on Brawl. That's not something hard to do.

What they did to Lucario wasn't an improvement to me.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

What they did to Lucario wasn't an improvement to me.

Well sure, if we wanna get into character specifics, then yes I don't like Lucario in PM either. The mere notion that a Smash character should be played as if they were in a traditional fighter rubs me the wrong way, his design goes against everything the PMBR stands for (ie. the "Free Charge" rewards the player for nothing at all, rather than taking the offensive) and having what is basically a permanent (albeit limited) Turbo Mode is just plain silly. Gatling Combos were cool because there was only one kind of them; Dash Attack -> Up Smash. It felt like its own thing instead of a character gimmick. I don't care if Lucario is "hard" like many people say (just because he has to hit an extra button to perform a Super =/= dfficult lmao), he's poorly designed.

Don't even get me started on how replacing some of his attacks with Street Fighter ones makes him feel less unique, as well as just how free shield pressure is when playing him.

 

[Tristan_win]

Brawl has a very deep level of high/top level play which I feel also produces outstanding players with strong fundamentals, better than any other smash game imo.

I never got close to high level play but a simple 'like' couldn't express how much I agree with this statement. I'll always remember how in Melee I was a brunt but because of Brawl I become a philosopher.

 

[Vkrm]

Smash was never meant to be competitive. Melee was only competitive because the community MADE it that way. Brawl wasn't competitive because the melee crowd wouldn't embrace the change and make it competitive. If the community will play it and give it time to develop, it will be fine.

There is no need for a new project m, there was never a need for one in general.

You don't need the melee community to make smash 4 a success competitively. We all pretty much hated brawl from the get go but that didn't stop them from building a scene.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Project M is all brawl mods now?OK...Anyway costumes and music.Yes!Complete mods.No!Either way people will take a couple years to familiarize with file formats and make programs.Then again mods may be the only way were getting some brawl vets back...dammit.

 

[Moldy Clay]

I know some will contradict this and say "I would be against a Brawl Minus mod" people love being against something and people love proving others wrong so they would say this just to be against what I am saying and to just prove me wrong even if they would not have been against Brawl Minus for Wii U originally.

I like your attempt at covering your bases.

By saying this, you make it so you are "right" if anyone honestly was against all Brawl hacking period, or simply against mods outside of custom music & extra costumes and came forward. Because at that point, maybe they'll second guess themselves or be in disbelief at how idiotic that statement is. To which you'd reply "See, I knew it" like you predicted something you specifically instigated in an attempt to make a point that isn't real.

Saying "I know you guys are just gonna say you hate everything for the sake of hating everything" doesn't make you right. Sure, some people like chaotic flaming, but most people aren't contradicting what you say just for the sake of doing so if they happen to legitimately be against what you said. And what are you going to do? Demand they take a lie detector test to prove that they're not just starting **** like you?

People target Project M because it's the most well known. A lot of people probably don't even know about the other mods. And you also don't take into consideration the reasoning in disliking things not having to be uniform.

Some people may have only liked Project M because 6 years is a long freaking time to be playing the same game, and they just wanted something new for something old. The same concept behind DLC. It's something that extends the longevity of something after it runs dry. I mean, Project M didn't even come out until 2011 and it wasn't in a 'complete' state until last year.

So for people who liked Project M with that idea in mind, they could easily not want a new Project M to exist for a game that's not even out yet. The purpose of PM was to restructure Brawl after people had gotten bored with it and it didn't live up to what they wanted for the competitive scene. SSB4 is being designed around the competitive scene. The game needs its chance first, and a Project M type thing shouldn't even be CONSIDERED until the game's run its course. Even if some of the game is still based in Brawl, there are tons of things changed that people will have to see first. It doesn't even make sense to mod it right out the door in that way. So no, there's nothing contradictory to liking Project M and not wanting another one yet.

As for other mods, this is all circumstantial. A lot of people simply don't want hacking in general because it means a chain reaction of pirating and even worse sales for Nintendo's games. Some only like specific things modded, or only like specific mods for specific reasons.

You can't boil it down to something as simple as "contradiction" for the sake of doing so or some kind of inner hatred for Project M.

 

[Katy Parry]

My opinion has changed on this. I want a PM 2.0. If anything, it'll increase the sales (that competitive players that originally didn't purchase) of Smash 4 as well as Wii U's to play them on. They'll most likely brick systems for awhile first trying to figure everything out.

Muhahaha, FOOLS! BUY MORE WII Us!

Seriously, though. I love PM. I love and its for one reason and one reason only: combos.

Combos feel so rewarding in Smash because you go with the flow, you make them up as you go along. Traditional fighters only give you either set combos (Tekken) or limited potential combos (Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur), plus not every combo works everytime. I.E. AAABK (B must be a counter strike hit for K to land) etc. I hate that crap.

But in smash 4, and as a Zelda main, who, in PM, has INSANE combo potential, I want to be able to Down throw > UpSmash, rising Nair > Double Jump > Bair.

Pulling stuff off like that feels really good, and it allows you to punish your opponent effectively.

I'm all for PM 2.0 (or a balance patch) if we find out after the game releases that hitstun isn't as long as it should be.

I'm honestly not a fan of Hit > Hit > Hit > Hit > Hit > Hit > Hit > KO

Combos are like, the Alfredo sauce if fighting games were Chicken Alfredo. It's not Chicken Alfredo without it!

And it doesn't help that Sakurai shows off "potential" combos in the character trailers that you know wouldn't ever work in competitive play.

 

[JoeInky]

Combos are by far my favourite part of Project M, Melee and 64 as well, I'd be fine with a mod that reduced the landing lag or increased hitstun if the combos in sm4sh are all 2-4 hits at most and the rest of the game is all about poking people to death.


But I'm personally hoping we can just use custom equipment to do that rather than have to resort to modding the game which could end up taking years.

 

[Bobojack]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyz5NIeM5ws&list=UUo9mWYDJV20cETkeVm53A4A&index=1

Look at this! Thats a texture-swap by MrBean. Say what you want to say but this is awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkFJBBQ2fUs (The Original Track)

So yes, texture swaps are possible right now!

 

[Icy_Eagle]

the only thing I'd care for is easy access to frame data.

 

[Silent Hell]

To me, Project M was more of a stepping stone of getting casuals into competitive play. This holds true to me as I probably wouldn't be as good as I am now if it weren't for PM. It introduced me to the basics better than Melee did and eventually some of that transferred over to Melee. I can understand why people don't like PM. I hate seeing all the flat out bashing for it. But then again I do notice that generally Brawl gets bashed more so I guess that's why most Brawl players are against it. Even though quite frankly it was expected.

If Project MU is made for whatever reason, I'll probably use it on the Wii U version and if I want the old one, I'll play the 3DS version. No big deal. Project M isn't ruining anything.

 

[31gma]

I certainly hope Smash for Wii U is moddable, I loved Project M as it brought an ideal Melee. By the end of the day though, I hope Smash 4 does well enough to please the competitive fans, kinda doubtful that'll be the case since Sakurai's balancing philosophy appeals to both FFA and 1v1. If the core mechanics of this game is a success but the meta still has some of the imbalances Melee had, then there's always the option to mod the game to where it's specifically balanced for 1v1.

 

[TimeSmash]

Project M was this great mod that moved Brawl into a more Melee-esque mindset. So many Melee players (and to an extent 64, when you think about Z-cancelling and gracious amounts of hitstun) were surprised at this brusque change in gameplay, as the last two games were much more offense-oriented than defense-oriented, which Brawl was. Brawl is by no means bad, but the differences in gameplay are intense. The defensive style of Brawl lead to slower games, somewhat because the punish game was really something to behold. You really had to plan things out, which was complimented by Brawl's slower speed and general floatiness. The lack of L-cancelling and universal movement tactics, as well as the ability to cancel hitstun and do weird things like momentum cancelling lead to matches of survival and the ability to have really high percents. All of this lead to slower matches, that some people didn't enjoy playing or watching. I don't view Brawl as a failure, it was something radically different that, like anything new, lead to a lot of controversy. It's nowhere near as stupid as something like the Apple store, **** that place. Off-topic but it had to be said. Anyways.

Project M served as a mod to turn Brawl into a more aggressive game, trying to keep some defensive aspects in. (I don't really see a lot of those defensive aspects, but PM does focus on defensive a bit more than Melee). While I don't agree completely with all the changes or new things it introduced (but really, who agreed with everything in any of the Smash games?) it did a lot of things right. Yes, we have more of an input window for things, and there are a lot of more matchups to learn and somewhat gimmicky gameplay (which, Brawl had too, so no one should be acting like that's new) but the game itself is not inherently bad. It drew in a lot of new players and has a very new meta, and is still changing over time. Just because we can do things easier doesn't make PM less technically demanding, and people who played Melee vs. someone new at PM are going to have an advantage because of the grandfathering-in of so many Melee vets' movesets and because they had a stricter window required to do whatever.

And who knows when hacking the WiiU to that extent will be possible? PM came at the end of the Wii's lifespan, when Nintendo really didn't give a crap about putting any more anti-hacking updates to a system that was over 7 years old with a new system on the horizon. If PM 2.0 comes out, it will probably be at the end of the WiiU's lifespan, and is something that won't happen until we actually play Smash 4 for a while. And the PM team did state they had no plans for a sequel, not that this negates a PM 2.0 but if you have a lot of that team not on board for a sequel, it's going to take that much longer for something like that to happen.

Tl;dr I actually like all Smash games. PM served to make Brawl more Melee like due to the radically different playstyles, and may happen again if people still wish for that Melee feel they so love. And it will take a long time to happen in any sense.

 

[vegeta18]

This game doesnt have nearly as many complaints as brawl did, not even from melee fans. Project M is still being worked on, and has basically became a game of its own, which is fine.

This game doesnt need something similar, but mods really can add a lot of fun cool stuff to the game. I wouldn`t mind playing with some texture hacks like we had for brawl, and changing the music is always fun as well. They have really done a lot of cool stuff with mods in the past, many great ideas in the brawl vault, and i hope some of them carry over to this game, maybe not great for the competitive scene, and i`d probably prefer an un-modded game in tournaments but for casual play and friendlies, they would be awesome! especially in HD with the better graphics of this game and the fact that wiiU can easily run more stuff at once than the wii could.

Also what about ocarina cheats and game saves? I`ve been looking around and it doesn`t seem like anyone has taken advantage of stuff like this yet in sm4sh. This would be realllly helpful for those annoying customs and unlocks -_- I`d rather get those this way, than waste a ridiculous amount of my time not improving at the game or having fun in any kind of way.

 

[Tino]

Hell to the no. I ain't gonna have someone **** up my Wii U with that bull****. I didn't pay $60+ for this.

 

[Ferblantier]

I'm not too concerned with PM:2. I just want somebody to hack Mute City and Magicant onto the Wii U.

 

[chaosmasterro]

A mod for textures and music is what I want. I dont want another pm honestly.

 

[anikom15]

Innovation is always a good thing.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Please don't necro this turd thread. It's nothing about what it should be and it's just a platform for thinly veiled ****-talk.

 

[allison]

Hell to the no. I ain't gonna have someone **** up my Wii U with that bull****. I didn't pay $60+ for this.

Thanks for your carefully-thought-out opinion.

 

[kantoskies]

It'd definitely be cool if they made one, but I probably wouldn't get it. I'd be paranoid about something happening to my Wii U, and I'm content with the regular game (for now, that is). Maybe if they make it a few years down the line and I still wasn't satisfied with the DLC, maybe I'll consider getting it.

 

[allison]

The issue of Nintendo fixing exploits in a non-trivial one, but if people could get it to work securely in a way that avoids any future updates (like the Smash Stack) then I don't see a problem with it.

 

[FalKoopa]

That's one hell of a necro. Egh, I'll lock it just to be safe.