Why the Melee/Brawl Debate is Meaningless

[game set]

Jack, you have signed the Melee-Brawl treaty that was proposed by 127Crazie (located here) on the date 27-07-2008 (as seen on the first page of the thread). This thread was created on 30-7-2008, 3 days after you signed a treaty stating to stop the Brawl/Melee debates. From that point on, you have continued to debate on the subject of Melee against Brawl. Therefore, every single post you have made in this thread is classified as flame bait, AKA blatant trolling.

I have reported your posts to a moderator and we'll see to it that you receive just punishment for trolling Smashboards for an entire week.

get out of here, you think the mods are going to be angry at someone try to stop the debate? Even if it were a bad point, a thread like this seems to calm down the debates. We have seen intelligent arguements put forward from all sides.

 

[Jack Kieser]

It's also had a VERY negative effect, too. People spam and flame each other all the time. People come into GBD, posting 'Melee>Brawl' and nothing else. It's completely ridiculous the condition of many of the forums on SWF now. The Brawl and Melee boards have threads in them created for the sole purpose of b*tching about the other board! The mods can't even handle all of the crap that gets posted in GBD. So, I'm postulating that more bad has been done than good because of the 'Melee v. Brawl' argument.

EDIT: Don't worry, game set. I've already PM'ed Blackshadow about why he's wrong and why this is a matter that should only be dealt with in PM format.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Well, alright.

As Eggm said earlier, if the Melee/Brawl Debate is able to get Brawl players even on the fence of Melee, it isn't pointless since the Melee community is basically dying (And don't tell me to move on or I'll shoot you...I've played enough Brawl).

Here, I'll quote something someone said in a different thread:

Here's the thing, though: complaint about people liking Brawl is more warranted. I am not complaining about people liking one or the other myself; I'm merely justifying a certain viewpoint.

Right now, the two possibilities are people complaining:
1.) that too many people like Brawl, and that not enough people like Melee
or
2.) that too many people like Melee, and that not enough people like Brawl

Now, what possible thing would Brawl supporters have to complain about? Brawl supporters don't cover 100% of the smash community? A lot of people who are complaining about Brawl are really pissed that the Melee community is basically dead because of Brawl. It's much easier for Brawl supporters to say, "You play your game, and we'll play ours."

Seriously, look at the this General Discussion board, or the Character boards. They're like ghost towns. They're dead.

Again, I'm not complaining about one side or the other myself. I'm just trying to show you how some complaints here are actually legitimate.

Let the thoughts flow. Begin.

Also, I think the communities altogether are more important than the forums. :/

 

[Jack Kieser]

I understand that the Melee community is strained right now. Really, I do. I love Melee, and I used to play it all the time; now, my Melee skills (skills that were already sub-par) are nearly non-existent due to a lack of people to play Melee with (partially). So I get you. But there is NO ONE to blame but ourselves for this, and certainly not Brawl players. I've already posted back a page on why targeting Brawl players is wrong for trying to save Melee, so I won't post it again.

 

[KosukeKGA]

This is the part where I give up hope because no one in AZ plays Melee except for like a few people.

Remember coreygames' Tourney... >_>

No one would go to it. No one. This is why I get quite sad sometimes playing the same people over and over. It's losing its taste.

Oh well.

 

[game set]

more people; more styles; more fun

no more people; no more melee

what made melee so great was the players, with loss of players, a chain reaction might cause its death. everytime a player switches to brawl, melee becomes less compelling.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

The point is... the debate is above you.. thats fine. So on topic... the thread ... most debates if not all are meaningless. The point of them for the most part is to inform in ignorant. In the end the debates don't change the world(debates betweeb us commoners) so why debate? Because people want to... and it is a legit debate between disgruntled mele players and those who like brawl. I don't know wtf the big deal is. People have been arguing and flaming eachother on these boards since the beginnning... its not gonna destroy the community lol... its just how people are... get over it.

 

[Wrath`]

KosukeKGA, I nominate you for my favorite user of the week.

i don't second that, this kinda proves anybody can come in here bash brawl and walk away with a few hifives, like its just fun to do so.

 

[game set]

I just find it sad that melee players have a reasonable reason to dislike people who play brawl for, uh, simply playing brawl... Everbody makes it seem like the only way we can save this thing we love, is by hurting something else

 

[Bowser King]

i don't second that, this kinda proves anybody can come in here bash brawl and walk away with a few hifives, like its just fun to do so.

Agreed. I may things I dislike about brawl but I never say "OMG nevar plaY BraWl aGaiN!" or say "It sucks!!!!!' I like them almost equally.

 

[5150]

If you haven't read this, only want to post 'tl;dr', or don't have anything relevant to say, DON'T POST IN THIS THREAD. Do not post until you have read this OP in its ENTIRETY. It is long for a reason.

Here are two paintings. The first painting is ‘In the Meadow’, by Auguste Renoir. The second is a still life by Picasso.

If I came to the same people who consistently argue Melee/Brawl all day (and subsequently clutter the boards and create schisms in the community) and presented them with the questions:

*Which painting is more technical?
*Which painting took more skill to make?
*Which painting is better?
*Which painting is a more accurate measure of what art is?

…I have no doubt that they could answer them. They could give me logical reasons as to why they felt their answers to all of these questions. They might be right, they might be wrong. They would have their reasons, though, and they would be logical, I assure you.

Here is a link to the OCRemix ‘The Masamune’, by ellywu2.

http://runawaynet.com/mirrors/chrono/CD1/Chrono_Symphonic_11_The_Masamune.mp3

Here is a link to a chiptune version of ‘Axel F’ (the theme to Beverly Hills Cop) entitled ‘Foley Hearty’.

http://www.8bitpeoples.com/mp3/get/177/8bp028-01-mesu_kasumai-axel_f.mp3

I ask the same Melee/Brawl debaters these questions about these two pieces:

*Which song was more technically demanding to make?
*Which song is more musical?
*Which song has the better key/meter?
*Which song is a more accurate measure of what music is?

Unfortunately, I cannot link to full movies, but this should be fresh in your minds anyway. Consider the two films Batman (1989) and The Dark Knight (2008). If you can’t remember both, work with what you remember. If you haven’t seen them both, you are a deprived individual.

*Which film had the better plot?
*Which film had the better visual style?
*Which portrayal of the Joker (Nicholson or Ledger) was better?
*Which film is a more accurate measure of what is ‘artistic film’?

Now let me present you with two Google Books links: the first is to Crime and Punishment, by Fyodor Dostoyevsky, and the second is to Fight Club, by Chuck Palahniuk. I again pose to the Melee/Brawl debaters the following questions:

*Which novel is a better social commentary?
*Which novel has more engrossing characters?
*Which novel has a deeper meaning to it?
*Which novel is a more accurate measure of ‘good literature’?

The point I’m laboriously trying to get to (and subsequently must beat into many people’s thick skulls) is that it is very possible to answer the questions I’ve posed here, every single one of them. Any of the Brawl/Melee appeasers could easily write 10-20 page treatises on why Picasso is a better artist than Renoir or why Batman is better than The Dark Knight, and they wouldn’t be wrong. In fact, said papers would probably get them ‘A’ grades, and if many of their posting histories are to be followed, possibly even publications and jobs as reputable critics.

…but they could never definitively be correct, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

They could debate their points to each other for eternity, but no one of them would be more correct than the other. Just because you can form a logical basis for your opinion and can prove with facts why you have said opinion, it doesn’t make your belief any less of opinion or any more of fact. THIS is why the debate between Brawl/Melee is utterly meaningless. Don’t believe me?

Let’s take into consideration the two sports of Rugby and American Football. For perspective, let me break down these sports to you.

Rugby (union rules) is the parent sport of American Football (Rugby founded around 1845), a spiritual successor to the British sport of ‘hurling’ (where a ball would be tossed into the air and players would catch it, attempting to bring it to an ‘end zone’-type area, possibly miles away). American Football is (when compared to Rugby) very rigid and devoid of many of Rugby’s advanced gameplay properties (for instance, when a possessing player is tackled in American Football, both teams reset at current position, whereas in Rugby, gameplay only stops in cases of penalties or fouls, or how in Rugby the ball is considered ‘in-play’ when it hits the ground from a pass or kick, while in American Football when the ball touches the ground from these conditions, the play is ended). I ask the Brawl/Melee appeasers one more time a series of questions:

*Which game is more defensive?
*Which game is more offensive?
*Which game has more options for movement?
*Which game is more rigid?
*Which game can more accurately measure competition (is more competitive)?

Again, I’m fully confident that not only could the Melee/Brawl appeasers answer these questions, but they could answer them logically, soundly, and competently. No matter what any of them say, however, one game cannot be considered factually better than the other.
The reason that all of the above sets of questions are based, ultimately, in opinion is because all of the above presented pieces (paintings, songs, books, movies, sports) are forms of entertainment, and by definition, entertainment is intrinsic. Melee and Brawl fall under the same stipulations. A person may think that one form of entertainment is better, but that does not make it true, and the reason is that entertainment doesn’t even need a logical basis.

Let me repeat that: entertainment does not need a logical basis.

If entertainment needed a logical basis to be good entertainment, most Youtube videos would not get the millions of hits that they do, because most of it is ‘stupid’ humor. Will Ferrell movies wouldn’t get as much revenue as they would because the majority of them are filled with non-sequitur. Brawl/Melee is the same way. You can justify one being better, more fun, more competitive, etc. all day, but not only could you never be factually right, not only could you never be able to definitively justify people needing to ‘see the light’ and agree with you, but your necessity for justification would ultimately be just as meaningless because Brawl and Melee are forms of entertainment (even when played competitively) and one needs no justification to play/enjoy/compete using either of them!

Melee/Brawl is meaningless. Debate all you want, justify all you want, flame and yell and berate all you want, but ultimately you are wasting your time, and if you expect that anyone needs to listen to, let alone respect or agree with, your opinion, you are severely deluded and should probably spend less time on internet message boards and more time living your lives, be it viewing paintings, listening to music, watching films, reading books, or playing sports.

one of the worst and more stupid posts ive read in a long time (and i didnt even need to read all of it). this is truly the longest john ever created.

 

[Red Exodus]

Why do anything? Everything you listed is also a waste of time because eventually we'll die and it won't matter.

Live and let live.

 

[KosukeKGA]

I'll be right back.

 

[MarKO X]

The "Brawl vs. Melee" debate is meaningless now. Was it? When it was in full effect and people needed to know the difference? No, it had meaning, and it was very, very necessary. But everything that has to be said about Brawl vs. Melee has already been said 43543 times over. So right now, unless some ultimate godtier development shows up, Brawl vs. Melee is meaningless.

So... play Smash. Whichever one you choose.

 

[Professor Pro]

*Walks in*

MOST 08'er are crazy and dont know what they are talking about most of the time.

*Walks out*

 

[ProNoob]

tl;dr lol
Excellent point.
Fail.

/10 char

 

[Corigames]

Fine, if you don't like me to "crusade" to get people to join Melee, then I won't. I will still try to get some people to come over to the smart side, but I won't push my opinion so hard onto people.

However, can I point out that no one has one convincing argument as to why I should play Brawl over Melee for competitive reasons aside from every new person plays it?

 

[Wrath`]

Fine, if you don't like me to "crusade" to get people to join Melee, then I won't. I will still try to get some people to come over to the smart side, but I won't push my opinion so hard onto people.

However, can I point out that no one has one convincing argument as to why I should play Brawl over Melee for competitive reasons aside from every new person plays it?

Well there is no point as to why you should play Brawl or to why someone else should play melee, wherever you find your entertainment is what you should play.

 

[Corigames]

But if there is no reason to play Brawl over Melee... why play Brawl over Melee?

 

[Wrath`]

But if there is no reason to play Brawl over Melee... why play Brawl over Melee?

Same goes the other way round, if there is no reason to play melee over brawl, then why do so?( and don't give the ussaly depth thing ethiter, heard it a million times) Video games are ment to entertain, and you lay what does so entertain you.

 

[Reaver197]

Same goes the other way round, if there is no reason to play melee over brawl, then why do so?( and don't give the ussaly depth thing ethiter, heard it a million times) Video games are ment to entertain, and you lay what does so entertain you.

Erggghhhh...

Spelling, and the ignoring of a completely legitimate reason.

 

[Wrath`]

Erggghhhh...

Spelling, and the ignoring of a completely legitimate reason.

Well mabey your reason does not aply to me. I play the smash sieries for fun and heathy compition, melee just came with more depth to, so It was bonus, when I got brawl I had the same intent, fun and compition, yes it lack depth but to me I wasn't expecting depth, it just came free with melee. Now if I were to play a link game, or a Metal gear solid game, then I'd be expecting depth.


Spelling....

 

[Corigames]

So, we as a community, should acknowledge that Brawl should be the competitive standard of smash games right now without considering which one is more viable for the job because more people are playing it currently?

 

[Wrath`]

So, we as a community, should acknowledge that Brawl should be the competitive standard of smash games right now without considering which one is more viable for the job because more people are playing it currently?

I never said that. I was just talking about how it is preference as to why you should play one over another., helzl I know melee is better for compition, but right now I perfer brawl to play as of now, if melee kicks back into gear i'll be there, I still have my disck

 

[Corigames]

That's the thing. Almost everyone can agree that Melee is a better game for competition out of the Smash series. I don't think there are many people who would even try to deny that. And I'm not going to say that Brawl isn't fun. Brawl is fun, but there is a difference between playing a game for fun and playing a game for competition, and that's the realization that some people need to get through their head.

If you want to decide who is a Smash player, would you play Melee or Brawl? I would choose Melee, because I know that the attributes it takes to be a successful player in that game are greater than Brawl's. That simple idea should be what keeps people playing Melee. however, people came to these boards to play/learn Brawl. Getting here and learning that the game you bought and love to play isn't the competitive standard has to be a shot to the head, right? Well, is it worth slightly crushing their hopes to play a game that we can almost all agree is better suited to prove who is better?

To me... yes. Though, I wouldn't intentionally say, "LOL, you suck, you play Brawl." I'd drop it on them easy by saying something along the lines of, "Brawl is a fun game, but, we as a community, believe that Melee is a more deep game and provides a better scene for competitive players. there is a Brawl community though, but I suggest that you blow off that Melee disc and get good at that and play Brawl when you want to blow some steam."

Would that be alright with people? I don't think personal preference should play into which game we chose to play competitively. I think we have explored the reasons inside and out and we've concluded that Melee is better, right now, for tournaments. If Brawl does progress to the point where it is as deep or more than Melee, then there should be absolutely no problem with switching. However, I doubt that day will come, and we should continue to look into Melee who is still growing and being explored. We should stop gripping onto Brawl like a child to a Blanket, fearing that if we let go that we somehow hurt its feelings. Just set it down, grow up, and play Melee. When your friends want to hang out, when you are tired of playing Melee, or you want to see some pretty graphics and awesome music, then go right ahead and pop in Brawl. However, trying to put Brawl up higher than Melee in terms of ability to say which player is better is insane in my mind.

Wow... I ranted.

 

[Fletch]

Coreygames for president

 

[Stroupes]

Though, I wouldn't intentionally say, "LOL, you suck, you play Brawl." I'd drop it on them easy by saying something along the lines of, "Brawl is a fun game, but, we as a community, believe that Melee is a more deep game and provides a better scene for competitive players. there is a Brawl community though, but I suggest that you blow off that Melee disc and get good at that and play Brawl when you want to blow some steam."

Would that be alright with people? I don't think personal preference should play into which game we chose to play competitively. I think we have explored the reasons inside and out and we've concluded that Melee is better, right now, for tournaments. If Brawl does progress to the point where it is as deep or more than Melee, then there should be absolutely no problem with switching. However, I doubt that day will come, and we should continue to look into Melee who is still growing and being explored. We should stop gripping onto Brawl like a child to a Blanket, fearing that if we let go that we somehow hurt its feelings. Just set it down, grow up, and play Melee. When your friends want to hang out, when you are tired of playing Melee, or you want to see some pretty graphics and awesome music, then go right ahead and pop in Brawl. However, trying to put Brawl up higher than Melee in terms of ability to say which player is better is insane in my mind..

Now that's a good post.
I think that's enough for any new Brawl(or Smash) player looking for the competitive light to give Melee a try.

 

[Ryazan]

Personally, I think this thread accomplished nothing. It's nothing but another useless debate thread. The only thing that might even slightly set it apart is the quite well-written, if not very concise, OP. This thread will do absolutely nothing but remind us all for the thousandth time that this isn't the way to end this "war". I fail to see how continuing the debate will help reunite this community.

As I think about this while I type this post, I wonder if the community is meant to be split. Maybe this is just our fate. Over the course of history, some revolutions were successful and changed the world for the better. All this arguing could end if the competitive scene would return to Melee and the casual scene were to remain with Brawl. The deal-clincher is a simple task that all of us must perform:

Stop trying to get opposers to agree with you.

On both sides, the community would be of substantial size. There is absolutely no need to try to prove the other side wrong. We should all just accept that the community is fated to split and simply choose a side.

 

[Spellman]

This is TRUE. Subjective! I've been saying this from the start!

Subjective can actually be applied to many of the regular debates that have been on the boards (what's competitive what's not, whether Jack Keiser is a genius, whether he's not)

I'm glad to see the idea illustrated in such detail.

 

[MarKO X]

Interesting... vey interesting.

The problem is... with all of the people, "casuals" as you call them, playing Brawl, the Melee pros will play Brawl to win money from them.

That's exactly what's happening, am I wrong?

 

[Proud_Smash_N00b]

Interesting... vey interesting.

The problem is... with all of the people, "casuals" as you call them, playing Brawl, the Melee pros will play Brawl to win money from them.

That's exactly what's happening, am I wrong?

You are correct. That's why M2K and others still play it even though they say they didn't like Brawl.

 

[cjrocker]

That seems counterproductive.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Oh well. Life goes on.
--
psst ^: Falco has a 0-Death on Wolf so you should stop playing Brawl.

 

[MarKO X]

Oh well. Life goes on.
--
psst ^: Falco has a 0-Death on Wolf so you should stop playing Brawl.

word? I wanna see it. vid please...

 

[Jack Kieser]

That seems counterproductive.

It totally is counter-productive. The way I see it, having the Melee pros choose to play Brawl over Melee hurts the Melee community WAY more than the influx of new players ever will. Players look up to those pros, and if they see them sacrificing enjoyment of a game for money, well... they'll probably follow like sheep. Getting the pros back on Melee should be the first priority of all those people wanting to save Melee, because without leaders, the community probably will fail.

 

[Boxob]

It totally is counter-productive. The way I see it, having the Melee pros choose to play Brawl over Melee hurts the Melee community WAY more than the influx of new players ever will. Players look up to those pros, and if they see them sacrificing enjoyment of a game for money, well... they'll probably follow like sheep. Getting the pros back on Melee should be the first priority of all those people wanting to save Melee, because without leaders, the community probably will fail.

I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree with you here.

Not everyone jerks off to the thought of pros. You can't tell me that, for example ,Azn, who plays brawl drastically effected the amount of Melee players?. Do you think him playing brawl is equal to the however-many thousands of people who gave up on Melee, to play brawl? No, it doesn't. Every 'pro' could play Melee every day for the rest of their lives, it isn't going to bring back the community that we once had.

 

[ripkirby]

Money is the measure of strength. Brawl killed Melee.

Back to the OP, a game is not art.

If I said Street Fighter 2 is a great game, many people who have played it and other fighting games will agree. Over 15 years, SF2 has lived and stays strong. Why? It is so simple to pick up, and yet it allows so much room for mastery. They have a core following and many new players come to pick it up over time. It is exciting to watch, comebacks are frequent, the matches are short, but amazingly, the same players consistently win tournaments. It is a beautiful, well-designed game. Games CAN BE and HAVE BEEN measured by the community, especially the top players who understand the inner workings of video games.

Now.. to actually compare Brawl and Melee. Well.. I don't want to anger too many Brawl players about Brawl's gameplay, but which game actually has a real intro movie and not some montage?

 

[L__]

You are correct. That's why M2K and others still play it even though they say they didn't like Brawl.

Shut up.

da1 chipmnk (10:09:46 PM): what you've been playing brawl lately?
oovideogamegodoo (10:09:58 PM): no
oovideogamegodoo (10:09:59 PM): nothin
da1 chipmnk (10:10:00 PM): ...
oovideogamegodoo (10:10:00 PM): nothing

 

[Corigames]

I like how I can make one epic, well written, flameless post and it gets no attention aside form one person agreeing with me.

This is why I post with little ****ing starts for every other god ****ed word. People at least read it.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

That's the thing. Almost everyone can agree that Melee is a better game for competition out of the Smash series. I don't think there are many people who would even try to deny that. And I'm not going to say that Brawl isn't fun. Brawl is fun, but there is a difference between playing a game for fun and playing a game for competition, and that's the realization that some people need to get through their head.

If you want to decide who is a Smash player, would you play Melee or Brawl? I would choose Melee, because I know that the attributes it takes to be a successful player in that game are greater than Brawl's. That simple idea should be what keeps people playing Melee. however, people came to these boards to play/learn Brawl. Getting here and learning that the game you bought and love to play isn't the competitive standard has to be a shot to the head, right? Well, is it worth slightly crushing their hopes to play a game that we can almost all agree is better suited to prove who is better?

To me... yes. Though, I wouldn't intentionally say, "LOL, you suck, you play Brawl." I'd drop it on them easy by saying something along the lines of, "Brawl is a fun game, but, we as a community, believe that Melee is a more deep game and provides a better scene for competitive players. there is a Brawl community though, but I suggest that you blow off that Melee disc and get good at that and play Brawl when you want to blow some steam."

Would that be alright with people? I don't think personal preference should play into which game we chose to play competitively. I think we have explored the reasons inside and out and we've concluded that Melee is better, right now, for tournaments. If Brawl does progress to the point where it is as deep or more than Melee, then there should be absolutely no problem with switching. However, I doubt that day will come, and we should continue to look into Melee who is still growing and being explored. We should stop gripping onto Brawl like a child to a Blanket, fearing that if we let go that we somehow hurt its feelings. Just set it down, grow up, and play Melee. When your friends want to hang out, when you are tired of playing Melee, or you want to see some pretty graphics and awesome music, then go right ahead and pop in Brawl. However, trying to put Brawl up higher than Melee in terms of ability to say which player is better is insane in my mind.

Wow... I ranted.

that was...

best post in GBD ever made

Spoiler

and to think i said you knew nothing

I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree with you here.

Not everyone jerks off to the thought of pros. You can't tell me that, for example ,Azn, who plays brawl drastically effected the amount of Melee players?. Do you think him playing brawl is equal to the however-many thousands of people who gave up on Melee, to play brawl? No, it doesn't. Every 'pro' could play Melee every day for the rest of their lives, it isn't going to bring back the community that we once had.

alot of people follow pros,its expected,if the pros stop playing then soon...others will slowly follow suit.