Why the hate on smash4?

[C-SAF]

Technically regardless of age he might not be wrong on that front, might be easy to forgive on that but right now that could be true.

Side note, I think PM/Smash 4 are the most balanced for the popular titles.

Totally could be right, but I wouldn't say so definitively is all. The amount of information on balance is just a blink in the timeline of the game if it sticks around for 5-7 years.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

goddamn theres so much politics to smash bros...i would love to play pm,,but no pal version..and theres like little to no smash scene in ireland..

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Spak covered what I meant by technical play, which sort of leads into depth but I digress.

you're right about the skill floor being lower, but the skill ceiling from a technical viewpoint is definitely higher for the other games (brawl not as much as the others but w/e) by the sheer amount of useful ATs. dash dancing and foxtrots aren't really that hard, are sort of basic as far as ATs can go, and are only really useful for a few characters (as a falcon main it's nice but it's fraudulent on most of the other characters). PP is the same but slightly more universal imo since it's okay for spacing. i don't see how customs fit into the "technical" area... the frame cancel combos with falco look interesting to me but they rely on getting a hit so they don't seem good to go for (i'm not a falco main so idk that much though). read potential i can sort of see with stuff like air dodge setups but those rely on getting the reads in the first place and can already be punished hard in the other games.

the most balanced game if my opinion matters is PM. stuff like mii swordfighter happens in smash 4 and it's only going to get worse from there as time goes on, though i don't think it will be bad enough to make characters unviable.

Mii swordsman was over balancing because they were focusing on hard ranged characters a lot in smash 4, Marth got some pretty hefty nerfs as well.

As for the rest, I still agree. Smash 4's skill floor is very low, but I am ok with that. That means I get more people to play against and easier for me to pick up and learn characters compared to pretty much every other fighter out there.

That is a good pro, it's better for building skill up.

Skill ceiling as high as melee? Most likely not but it still offers choice in customs and other areas of game-play for decision making over raw tech skill.

Now don't get me wrong, my tech skill is trash and I'll be honest about it.

http://www.twitch.tv/meleemilwaukee/v/3959939

29:04 me in doubles, 03:21:54 singles.

Smash 4 still has a technical barrier, but it is something you build up to than I think a lot of past games do. PM is better than melee in that regard.

 

[Chez G.]

Mii swordsman was over balancing because they were focusing on hard ranged characters a lot in smash 4, Marth got some pretty hefty nerfs as well.

As for the rest, I still agree. Smash 4's skill floor is very low, but I am ok with that. That means I get more people to play against and easier for me to pick up and learn characters compared to pretty much every other fighter out there.

That is a good pro, it's better for building skill up.

Skill ceiling as high as melee? Most likely not but it still offers choice in customs and other areas of game-play for decision making over raw tech skill.

Now don't get me wrong, my tech skill is trash and I'll be honest about it.

http://www.twitch.tv/meleemilwaukee/v/3959939

28:04 me in doubles, 03:21:54 singles.

Smash 4 still has a technical barrier, but it is something you build up to than I think a lot of past games do. PM is better than melee in that regard.

Smash 4 has a technical barrier...what do you mean exactly?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Smash 4 has a technical barrier...what do you mean exactly?

At the base level, you won't see it.

When you get used to customs and other techs that they intentionally put into the game then it open up options that offer gameplay with a technical barrier, but in a good way.

It's not as hard as Melee though, I'll stand by that.

 

[Chez G.]

So you mean something like perfect pivoting and dance trotting? I also never thought of customs being being considered a technical barrier until now. I actually thought customs were simply tools to create other playstyles.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So you mean something like perfect pivoting and dance trotting? I also never thought of customs being being considered a technical barrier until now. I actually thought customs were simply tools to create other playstyles.

They are, customs, but you need to still learn them.

There is a big difference with learning what you can do with snarng aura sphere vs normal aura sphere with Lucario.

 

[Chez G.]

Oh yeah, right. I have not tinkered with customs very much, since I'm STILL trying to get them all, so knowledge on them is somewhat limited. For the ones I actually did use, they do yield some interesting results, like this for instance:

 

[Jackson Cantin]

The big reason for me is the movement. In Melee if I want to be somewhere I can get their really fast using dashes/wave dashes/wave lands. In Smash 4... I guess I'll walk since you can't even do anything out of dash?

 

[vorgan12]

That's seriously one of my biggest peeves with this game. It has terrible movement. Just absolutely atrocious. I like moving in 64 more than I like moving in Sm4sh.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

balance patches will keep everthing in check tho...and yes i heard sakurai saying no more balance patches..and to that i say never trust sakurai

About this point...yeah it's confirmed more balance patches are on the way.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

About this point...yeah it's confirmed more balance patches are on the way.

I knew it ...never trust sakurai..ever

 

[Spak]

I knew it ...never trust sakurai..ever

Congratulations. With those balance patches, they might also "balance" the gameplay. Don't be surprised if they suddenly remove something like PP; they already took out DACUS and Vectoring. Also, I don't expect it'll last for much longer than when they stop releasing DLC (meaning you're probably good for another year and a half tops). Also, balance patches don't necessarily make a game balanced; I wouldn't call LoL the most balanced game in the world (despite their attempts).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Congratulations. With those balance patches, they might also "balance" the gameplay. Don't be surprised if they suddenly remove something like PP; they already took out DACUS and Vectoring. Also, I don't expect it'll last for much longer than when they stop releasing DLC (meaning you're probably good for another year and a half tops). Also, balance patches don't necessarily make a game balanced; I wouldn't call LoL the most balanced game in the world (despite their attempts).

Pivoting is a tip in the game itself.

Patches in turn can keep a game alive for longer along with dlc.

 

[Spak]

Pivoting is a tip in the game itself.

Patches in turn can keep a game alive for longer along with dlc.

Vectoring was intentionally put in the game, but they removed that. Who says they won't change the game's design from what it was originally intended to be?

 

[Reila]

I didn't know Smash 4 was hated. It is? I am kinda inactive here for the past few months, but when I was active the game was fairly well received. Sure, there are some fans who do not like the game and that is fine. I love it, but I still have some issues with it (mostly roster-related). I also thought it had potential to be a competitive game, albeit not on the same level as Melee and Project M?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Vectoring was intentionally put in the game, but they removed that. Who says they won't change the game's design from what it was originally intended to be?

Vectoring is not a game tip that is told to newer players. Heck based on who helped develop it, I wouldn't be surprised it was entirely intentional.

There are multiple tips about pivoting in the game.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Congratulations. With those balance patches, they might also "balance" the gameplay. Don't be surprised if they suddenly remove something like PP; they already took out DACUS and Vectoring. Also, I don't expect it'll last for much longer than when they stop releasing DLC (meaning you're probably good for another year and a half tops). Also, balance patches don't necessarily make a game balanced; I wouldn't call LoL the most balanced game in the world (despite their attempts).

taking out pp would require them to rework dash mechanics,,which is a far cry from character balance tweaking they say they're going to do,,and wow you are extremely negative..cheer up bud

 

[Spak]

Vectoring is not a game tip that is told to newer players. Heck based on who helped develop it, I wouldn't be surprised it was entirely intentional.

There are multiple tips about pivoting in the game.

I was saying that it was intentional.

taking out pp would require them to rework dash mechanics,,which is a far cry from character balance tweaking they say they're going to do,,and wow you are extremely negative..cheer up bud

The dash mechanics need reworking in my opinion because the movement in Sm4sh feels extremely restricted to me. Also, I'm sorry that I'm a bit negative on Sm4sh. I went to the Best Buy event just to try the game out (waited in line for a few hours for that), preordered both games (the Wii U one with the adapter bundle), and was disappointed at how cluncky it felt.

It may just be my opinion on the game, but I didn't like the way it played, so I didn't enjoy multiplayer as much as Melee. Then I decided to try out single player, but was disappointed by the lack of content compared to Brawl. I wanted to like the game, gave it every possible opportunity I could think of, but it isn't the game for me. I understand its appeal as a casual game, but I just don't see this game having as much competitive potential as Melee or PM.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

I was saying that it was intentional.


The dash mechanics need reworking in my opinion because the movement in Sm4sh feels extremely restricted to me. Also, I'm sorry that I'm a bit negative on Sm4sh. I went to the Best Buy event just to try the game out (waited in line for a few hours for that), preordered both games (the Wii U one with the adapter bundle), and was disappointed at how cluncky it felt.

It may just be my opinion on the game, but I didn't like the way it played, so I didn't enjoy multiplayer as much as Melee. Then I decided to try out single player, but was disappointed by the lack of content compared to Brawl. I wanted to like the game, gave it every possible opportunity I could think of, but it isn't the game for me. I understand its appeal as a casual game, but I just don't see this game having as much competitive potential as Melee or PM.

i am in a position where i am unable to play pm or melee because i am in europe and dont own a computer,,so i will make the most of what i have,,and i dont care about single player at all,,,the problem is that it may be that pm has the most competitive potential,,but realistically its never going to be melee status ,,with the legality issue ,no pal version and all that.if ninitendo made a disc version of pm,,then it will probably take over

 

[NinArias]

Biggest problem for me in SM4SH is Landing lag no more short hop double fair

 

[Nokturnith]

Because it's not Melee.

 

[Aristod]

Smash 4 post with over 300 replies? Oh boy

 

[Lorenzo The Comic]

Because it's not Melee.

Just because a game is a different game doesn't mean someone who likes Melee is going to dislike Smash 4. I like Melee for all the crazy stuff and advanced techniques that are possible, but I also like Smash 4 because it's easier to get into, features a lot of newcomers that I like and its Online Play.

 

[_A1]

Just because a game is a different game doesn't mean someone who likes Melee is going to dislike Smash 4. I like Melee for all the crazy stuff and advanced techniques that are possible, but I also like Smash 4 because it's easier to get into, features a lot of newcomers that I like and its Online Play.

I'd say that you could most definitely dislike Smash 4 for not being Melee. It's not Melee cause it doesn't have the fluidity, creativity, speed, advanced techniques, aggressiveness, combos, and movement options that Melee has. I dislike Smash 4 because it doesn't have the things that make Melee hella sick.

 

[The Prince L]

The over use of the word combos. Forced hype for basic stuff. Campy match ups and diddy dittos.

 

[Jebus244]

Sm4sh is missing 2 things IMO. L-cancel and better dash-dancing.

I posted a thread in the sm4sh forums about it two mornings ago and it was deleted by lunch time. They don't want to hear it, read about it, discuss it, send emails to Nintendo about it, nothing...

Sm4sh needs these two things to be better competitively, and very simply, only those two additions. Despite any trivial stat balancing, the addition of L-cancelling and better dash-dancing would enhance the game's offense and (IMO) raise offense to just above defense. Keep airdodges the way they are, wavedashing is not necessary and I think the way airdodging works in sm4sh is perfect in conjuction with these two additions and the new ledge game.

Sm4sh is gonna die at the competitive level because melee is better. This is proven by brawl's inability to capture an audience, which happened before metaknight broke the meta. If PM had a better platform, I would expect it to win over melee, but Nintendo pulled that rug out from under PM's feet.

In a perfect world, Nintendo would blend the best of melee's PAL and NTSC versions into a WiiU or next gen remake.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'll take a guess why it got deleted.

It won't happen and one is technically ok the game, just not on a dime like it is on PM or Melee.

 

[Spak]

I'll take a guess why it got deleted.

It won't happen and one is technically ok the game, just not on a dime like it is on PM or Melee.

Those mechanics make Melee and PM flow better than and make them faster than Sm4sh, so it's relevant.

Also, shouldn't someone have responded and given him a reason instead of simply deleting it? That would have been more constructive and possibly make some useful conversation. I guess I shouldn't be arguing the decisions of a mod to another mod, but it seems a bit counterproductive to discussion about a topic if someone tries to pretend the counterargument to what they're saying doesn't exist.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Those mechanics make Melee and PM flow better than and make them faster than Sm4sh, so it's relevant.

Also, shouldn't someone have responded and given him a reason instead of simply deleting it? That would have been more constructive and possibly make some useful conversation. I guess I shouldn't be arguing the decisions of a mod to another mod, but it seems a bit counterproductive to discussion about a topic if someone tries to pretend the counterargument to what they're saying doesn't exist.

Speculation, this game should have x aren't allowed because it usually ends bad and I assume he posted it in the comp boards which is 110% not allowed.

It's a reason to like or dislike a game sure, but it's not productive in some of the boards on the smash 4 area.

 

[Spak]

Speculation, this game should have x aren't allowed because it usually ends bad and I assume he posted it in the comp boards which is 110% not allowed.

It's a reason to like or dislike a game sure, but it's not productive in some of the boards on the smash 4 area.

Just looked up the post and now I understand why the post was removed; it made for a diversion and had the possibility of drawing the conversation away from the point of the OP. The comment was given at the wrong time and place, but I think it's a relevant point for the Sm4sh General Discussion area or maybe even this thread. Unless Nintendo intervines and either alter the mechanics of Sm4sh or hold their own tournament with prize money (like they do with Pokemon), I don't see Sm4sh living much past the release of 5mash.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just looked up the post and now I understand why the post was removed; it made for a diversion and had the possibility of drawing the conversation away from the point of the OP. The comment was given at the wrong time and place, but I think it's a relevant point for the Sm4sh General Discussion area or maybe even this thread. Unless Nintendo intervines and either alter the mechanics of Sm4sh or hold their own tournament with prize money (like they do with Pokemon), I don't see Sm4sh living much past the release of 5mash.

Maybe in the general area, but it's still touchy when it almost always goes south because it inevitably turns from discussing mechanics turns into Melee/PM vs Smash 4.

I mean, what people with with smash 4 living or not, who knows. Not every game is going to be the street fighter II or Melee in terms of fan love.

Regardless, there might be merit to it, but generally in other areas it seems to be more productive, L-cancelling debate in the PM boards or here if it ever came up. That discussion can be healthy.

The issue with the Smash 4 area is that even if you make it tactfully, 95% of the time it's not, it turns into a **** fest fast and isn't worth it just for speculation when it's clear L-cancelling over just presetting landing lag isn't going to change. Neither will ledge mechanics entirely or changing airdodges to allow for wavedashing to be more possible.

Outside of vectoring, they most likely aren't going to change much mechanically, so discussion usually is just speculation that ends up going bad fast so it's not really worth it unless there is some kind of legitimate discussion with it.

 

[_A1]

Wavedashing is my favorite thing. But it's not in Smash 4.

 

[JKJ]

As for people hating on Smash 4 and spreading hate unnecessarily, I think it's clear to see that they simply hate the game and don't want outsiders to see Smash 4 in the limelight and take that away as their impression of competitive Smash. Melee players want the world of esports to see their game; they want people to love it like they do, and Smash 4's release comes at a time when Melee was in the spotlight and blowing up. I don't agree with the spread of hatred for the game as a pursuit in and of itself, but i will talk about one specific instance where hate on Smash 4 was both very public and (more or less) not actually about the game.

At Apex 2015 (which I attended), Smash 4 top 8 took over 5 hours. Melee top 8 was scheduled to start at 9pm, but was literally postponed for 2 and a half hours because Smash 4 took forever. Many people (myself included) were essentially forced to sit and watch Smash 4 in order to hold their seats for Melee top 8. This sucked. All the Smash 4 sets (GF barred) went essentially to game 5, many games timed out or went close to time, and the time spent coaching between games exceeded 2 minutes in some cases. This was ridiculous. Many people (my brother included) had to leave and miss Melee top 8 due to this gross underestimation of just how slow Smash 4 would be. When Smash 4 finally ended, the crowd began chanting "Melee! Melee! Melee!" not because we hate Smash 4 but because we hate being forced to watch it (something we are not a fan of) and wait for the game we love. That very public instance of Smash 4 hate has created a stigma about Melee players as elitist douchebags who will go out of their way to hate on other games. This, though true for some people, is largely false when regarding the whole community.

Say its Super Bowl Sunday. You have a group of diehard football fans who are told that the Super Bowl will start at 9 o clock. Some of them have work the next morning, so they cant stay past 1:00am, but they won't have to. Before the Super Bowl, the same network is broadcasting curling. The football fans are all waiting for the Super Bowl, so they don't mind. Then 9 oclock comes and goes. Then 10. THEN 11. The football fans are saying things like "I hate curling, who could like this stupid sport" "Why is this on instead of football" and "anybody who likes curling is an idiot". Finally it's 11:45, a few of the fans had to go home to sleep before work the next day, and the Super Bowl comes on. The remaining football fans, relieved, start shouting things like "Yes! finally! football!" "No more of that curling bullsh**!" and "Let's watch some football!".

Would we call these fans toxic? Would we say that these people weren't justified in their anger? We wouldn't say "Stop being toxic to another sport, we're all part of the athletic fan community" or "Those guys are pretentious football elitists".

The two situations I presented are extremely similar. I do not hate smash 4, just like the football fans dont hate curling. I'm just not a fan of the game. Why would I be happy about being forced to watch it and wait for the game I came to see?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

As for people hating on Smash 4 and spreading hate unnecessarily, I think it's clear to see that they simply hate the game and don't want outsiders to see Smash 4 in the limelight and take that away as their impression of competitive Smash. Melee players want the world of esports to see their game; they want people to love it like they do, and Smash 4's release comes at a time when Melee was in the spotlight and blowing up. I don't agree with the spread of hatred for the game as a pursuit in and of itself, but i will talk about one specific instance where hate on Smash 4 was both very public and (more or less) not actually about the game.

At Apex 2015 (which I attended), Smash 4 top 8 took over 5 hours. Melee top 8 was scheduled to start at 9pm, but was literally postponed for 2 and a half hours because Smash 4 took forever. Many people (myself included) were essentially forced to sit and watch Smash 4 in order to hold their seats for Melee top 8. This sucked. All the Smash 4 sets (GF barred) went essentially to game 5, many games timed out or went close to time, and the time spent coaching between games exceeded 2 minutes in some cases. This was ridiculous. Many people (my brother included) had to leave and miss Melee top 8 due to this gross underestimation of just how slow Smash 4 would be. When Smash 4 finally ended, the crowd began chanting "Melee! Melee! Melee!" not because we hate Smash 4 but because we hate being forced to watch it (something we are not a fan of) and wait for the game we love. That very public instance of Smash 4 hate has created a stigma about Melee players as elitist douchebags who will go out of their way to hate on other games. This, though true for some people, is largely false when regarding the whole community.

Say its Super Bowl Sunday. You have a group of diehard football fans who are told that the Super Bowl will start at 9 o clock. Some of them have work the next morning, so they cant stay past 1:00am, but they won't have to. Before the Super Bowl, the same network is broadcasting curling. The football fans are all waiting for the Super Bowl, so they don't mind. Then 9 oclock comes and goes. Then 10. THEN 11. The football fans are saying things like "I hate curling, who could like this stupid sport" "Why is this on instead of football" and "anybody who likes curling is an idiot". Finally it's 11:45, a few of the fans had to go home to sleep before work the next day, and the Super Bowl comes on. The remaining football fans, relieved, start shouting things like "Yes! finally! football!" "No more of that curling bullsh**!" and "Let's watch some football!".

Would we call these fans toxic? Would we say that these people weren't justified in their anger? We wouldn't say "Stop being toxic to another sport, we're all part of the athletic fan community" or "Those guys are pretentious football elitists".

The two situations I presented are extremely similar. I do not hate smash 4, just like the football fans dont hate curling. I'm just not a fan of the game. Why would I be happy about being forced to watch it and wait for the game I came to see?

http://www.meleeitonme.com/one-unit-and-the-melee-chant-at-apex/
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2uhfdm/zeros_win_this_is_why_people_say_the_melee/
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2uq9ad/hey_its_zero_about_the_melee_chants/

This is all I need to link about a subject like this.

 

[NINJAxKOALA]

Anyone in here think there will even be a PM equivalent for Smash 4? Not sure if the Wii U hardware allows for it or not.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Highly unlikely at this point.

Even more so if the main game is being patched as is.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I honestly tried to like smash 4.
I keep playing it if someone brings it to our meet. Even went to a tourney with people that only play it.

I just cant bring myself to like it.
It does look pretty though.

goddamn theres so much politics to smash bros...i would love to play pm,,but no pal version..and theres like little to no smash scene in ireland..

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-on-a-pal-wii-updated.356936/

It's easy, takes like an hour provided you have everything ready.

 

[JKJ]

http://www.meleeitonme.com/one-unit-and-the-melee-chant-at-apex/
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2uhfdm/zeros_win_this_is_why_people_say_the_melee/
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2uq9ad/hey_its_zero_about_the_melee_chants/

This is all I need to link about a subject like this.

I'm not saying that the people who chanted weren't disrespectful. They were, and I didn't join them.
I'm just saying that ostracizing people who did instead of understanding why they felt this way and acted as they did is a negative way to deal with this already-negative situation.
Its an old issue in psychology - Attribution Bias. Humans in general have issues attributing peoples' actions to situational factors and instead always attribute peoples' behaviors to their personality (in effect, thinking someone is a jerk or an a**hole.) All I'm trying to do is remove the blinders inherent in the way we think. I

 

[Narpas_sword]

i feel like htis is appropriate:

http://extrafabulouscomics.com/comic/200/