Why Stages Deserve To Be Banned (And Why You Shouldn't Ban Pokemon Stadium)

[warriorman222]

I think another thing we should mention when having legal stages is to look at the stage list and take a look at what they bring.

As a hypothetical, Delfino, Skyloft, and Wuhu are all travelling stages. Is it really necessary to have multiple of these stages legal? If there were three bans, for example, all three of them would be used by the player whom doesn't want to go to those, leaving themselves open to other possible picks when they could've just banned Delfino and their other non-favourable with the current stage list.

In other words, a legal stage should not only be playable, but it should also bring something new to the table.

Btw, what would you say to disprove me saying that Delfino already serves the same purpose of Skyloft and Wuhu? What would you refer to if someone else said this to convince them they differentiated? What would you say about PS2 if a similar scenario came up, comparing it to the current legal stages to say how it's unique and deserves a spot?

(Disclaimer: I don't necessarily mean what I post here, just trying to get some debate going to see what others have to say)

Is it neccesary to have multiple static stages legal either? But wait! They have differences! So do each of the travelling stages in the entire game. Comparing Delfino and Skyloft is like comparing Circuit 8 and Orbital Gate : They aren't the same, they are simply of the same archtype.

PS2 is obviously unique thanks to the transformations, however they aren't overpowering enough to ban it. A wacky layout consisting on one main platform has never been banned before just for the wacky layout, as each stage like this either has additional problems (Gr8 Cave offensive), doesn't have a mains sustainable platform(Circuit 8), or both(75m, OGA). Reduced traction for Ice means longer sliding usmashes, as well as a punishment for mindlessly running to your opponent, only to change your mind.

Flying stage may disadvantage those with bad air game... just like the Electric stage disadvantages those with bad approach options or reliance of camping, Ice against those with overly high or low traction or bad upmashes. And it add s a layer of depth by bringing the fight to the air, and preventing camping of almost all kinds, while helping approach (and offense) as a whole.

Electric is annoying, but although it disables 2 getup options, it's not like your opponent's punishing you, and more work to get back on stage may be a good thing. Whoever controls the middle has an advantage, but this means character's can't camp, and they have to fight for the center, and if they camp for any amount of time, they are at a hige disadvantage.

I honestly don't think PS2 is that bad. This isn't Brawl, we should try it.

 

[dav3yb]

I got a chance to play on PS2 a lot more this past week. I'll say, after a bit of time on it, i'm a bit more sympathetic towards those who dislike the stage. I can't say i ever ran into the flying section, and the Ice didn't bother me at all, but I didn't realize just how fast those conveyors are moving. It certainly threw me off, but i was able to use the center and the conveyors to space better in the match. It certainly changes how you need to approach, but I still don't think its as bad as everyone thinks.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Getting to another point (since the Wii U version is the most played version, at least in the Competitive scene), but why is Tortimer Island banned? I know it's random, but what makes it so bad?

 

[Sonsa]

Getting to another point (since the Wii U version is the most played version, at least in the Competitive scene), but why is Tortimer Island banned? I know it's random, but what makes it so bad?

Doesn't it spawn throwable items, healing items, and have a shark?

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Doesn't it spawn throwable items, healing items, and have a shark?

Yup. But they are not that overpowered.

 

[Wintropy]

Yup. But they are not that overpowered.

Extraneous paraphernalia and randomly-generated hazards, e.g. items, are still a no-go in competitive play, irrespective of their power.

I agree with OP as far as Pokésta2 is concerned, a very well-made defense of a rather controversial stage. That said, I'm pretty liberal when it comes to my opinions on viable stages (to wit: is the stage actively trying to kill you and / or does it possess legitimate game-breaking glitches or elements? If not, you're probably good).

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Extraneous paraphernalia and randomly-generated hazards, e.g. items, are still a no-go in competitive play, irrespective of their power.

I agree with OP as far as Pokésta2 is concerned, a very well-made defense of a rather controversial stage. That said, I'm pretty liberal when it comes to my opinions on viable stages (to wit: is the stage actively trying to kill you and / or does it possess legitimate game-breaking glitches or elements? If not, you're probably good).

Oh, I understand. Thanks! It's also quite a big stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So Shadow Sneak on the electric segment is freaking hilarious. Seriously, everyone go try that out. It's so cool. Seeing the shadow is hard, you can't just hang around in shield because you're either being pushed away by the bands or it can be spaced so the bands drag Greninja out of harm's way, and it gives you insane stage control on a part of the stage that is notoriously hard to control. Shoutouts to NoOne for spotting this. Made my day.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So Shadow Sneak on the electric segment is freaking hilarious. Seriously, everyone go try that out. It's so cool. Seeing the shadow is hard, you can't just hang around in shield because you're either being pushed away by the bands or it can be spaced so the bands drag Greninja out of harm's way, and it gives you insane stage control on a part of the stage that is notoriously hard to control. Shoutouts to NoOne for spotting this. Made my day.

PS2 for Greninja's preferred counterpick stage? He can also dair to get to the ground fast in flying form if he really wants to, I guess.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

PS2 for Greninja's preferred counterpick stage? He can also dair to get to the ground fast in flying form if he really wants to, I guess.

I dunno, the Greninja main where I live seems to prefer Duck Hunt for some reason.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

I usually don't ban stages in tournament play. Other than halberd if I'm playing a diddy main.
So if ps2 is legal this will just have to be my go-to ban every time.
It's just to gimmicky. I understand where you're coming from with needing to adapt. I agree with that in the sense of adapting to a stage that changes layouts, but not a stage that changes your characters mechanics.

and the electric form is just flat out awful.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

Question(s): 1. Is Norfair TOO odd to be considered in Teams if you have a 5th player join in and just SD to prevent the lava hazards? 2. If it were easier to setup a hazard-less Norfair would it be up for consideration in Singles?
I ask because it's layout leads to some very interesting 1 v 1 or 2 v 2 matches IMO, and I would like to know some thoughts.

 

[Pazx]

Question(s): 1. Is Norfair TOO odd to be considered in Teams if you have a 5th player join in and just SD to prevent the lava hazards? 2. If it were easier to setup a hazard-less Norfair would it be up for consideration in Singles?
I ask because it's layout leads to some very interesting 1 v 1 or 2 v 2 matches IMO, and I would like to know some thoughts.

In my opinion, yes, it would be a legitimate stage.

I usually don't ban stages in tournament play. Other than halberd if I'm playing a diddy main.
So if ps2 is legal this will just have to be my go-to ban every time.
It's just to gimmicky. I understand where you're coming from with needing to adapt. I agree with that in the sense of adapting to a stage that changes layouts, but not a stage that changes your characters mechanics.

and the electric form is just flat out awful.

Sorry buddy, we don't cater rulesets to individuals like you.

 

[teluoborg]

Yes, do you know why it isn't? There are non-trivial reasons for it. It's not simply "we don't value this skill". It's "this skill devalues every other skill and is trivial to execute". Or, to put it another way, you could put me up against the very best Yoshi in the world, and I would just pick Fox or Shiek or Pikachu and win with absolutely no difficulty. Circle camping trivializes competition to the point that you might as well not compete in the first place. This is why we ban Palutena's Temple. It's not arbitrary and it has nothing to do with player preference.

Sigh

Yes circle camping is degenerate compared to how the game is supposed to be played, and you still missed the point.

The point : people consider PS2 transformations to promote degenerate gameplay, you don't. Not me, the community as a whole.
And since it's not a case as extreme as circle camping on Palutemple there's a lot more room for interpretation and personal preference, and unless people prove that degenerate strategies do or do not exist on this stage then the status quo will not change.
And saying "no it's not" "yes it is" and "you're bad" won't help you make people change their mind.

If you don't value temporary low gravity play, why can't I not value any other arbitrary non-broken play element?

You can value whatever you like, having preferences doesn't make you right or wrong. But unless you get a say in the creation of a ruleset then your preferences don't matter more than anyone else's.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh man is it stage rage crew season again?

Personally I feel Pokémon Stadium 2 is at the border end of stages we should allow. It has very disruptive elements that affect gameplay to a large degree, but with the exception of perhaps electric (seriously **** electric) don't destroy it altogether.

I was going to make a larger post but I realized I have to get going to work, I'll pop back tonight to contribute some proper stuff to discussion.

I DO agree however that at the end of the day it's up solely to the people hosting events. You can argue all day to a ton of randoms on smashboards but at the end of the day you need to be having intelligent discussion with the people who actually run events, or host events yourself.

 

[[Deuce]]

If so many people are pissed at PS2, just replace it with Miiverse when it comes out. That keeps the list at 13 still for stage striking, no?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Sigh

Yes circle camping is degenerate compared to how the game is supposed to be played, and you still missed the point.

The point : people consider PS2 transformations to promote degenerate gameplay, you don't. Not me, the community as a whole.
And since it's not a case as extreme as circle camping on Palutemple there's a lot more room for interpretation and personal preference, and unless people prove that degenerate strategies do or do not exist on this stage then the status quo will not change.
And saying "no it's not" "yes it is" and "you're bad" won't help you make people change their mind.

You can value whatever you like, having preferences doesn't make you right or wrong. But unless you get a say in the creation of a ruleset then your preferences don't matter more than anyone else's.

And what I'm saying is that we should have some sort of concrete standard for "degenerate". Something we can appeal to for any given situation. Hell, at this point, I'd take basically anything over this, vague, completely arbitrary "well this is okay and this isn't" approach we take to literally every single issue. That's what bugs me the most - that we just arbitrarily declare "this is degenerate". As though there isn't some reasonable standard to be had.

 

[umegames]

I agree with this analysis, SOME stages do add depth, but even in the event of being affected by randomness i could say the say thing about competitive sports. If i'm a Quarterback in a football game and playing in winds at 22mph but need a Touchdown from 70 yards back with only 30 seconds left in the game, I'm in a situation that demands me throwing the ball, but the wind is totally random either for or against me. Non the less, should i accomplish what i needed to do despite the wind i still need all the requisites of a winner to win, strategy, judgement and high level skill.

 

[Teshie U]

Norfair is likely better WITH the hazards as the layout is extremely good for circle camping. Six ledges and the stage is shaped like a giant bowl.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Since the topic seems to be veering in the general direction anyway, I want to ask directly: what constitutes a "viable" hazard?

Halberd, for instance, has the Combo Cannon that can attack players with a laser, bomb, or claw. All are dangerous but it's accepted because you get tons of warning that it's about to do something, if not necessarily who it will target in the case of the claw. Clearly, raw power is not the only deciding factor.

Back on Norfair, if the current amount of hazards is too much but hazardless Norfair would also be undesirable due to its layout promoting certain types of keepaway, then which of the existing hazards would provide the happiest medium?

More broadly, there's no doubt some sort of balance between strength and predictability that serves as a threshold. But does it skew more toward "weak hazards" or "predictable hazards?" Alternatively, would a completely predictable OHKO hazard be better or worse than a completely unpredictable 1% no-hitstun hazard? And what about hazards that don't actually do damage at all but interfere with the fight in other ways (Randall, PS2's Flying form, Duck Hunt in general)? And then transforming stages throw their own unique twist on everything.

I'm not sure if I'm actually looking for answers or just trying to start a discussion. Maybe a bit of both. But I agree with BPC insofar as that there should be a clearly defined set of criteria for stages regarding their legality.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm not sure if I'm actually looking for answers or just trying to start a discussion. Maybe a bit of both. But I agree with BPC insofar as that there should be a clearly defined set of criteria for stages regarding their legality.

Seriously, this is the fourth Smash game. How is this not a thing yet.

 

[Piford]

If so many people are pissed at PS2, just replace it with Miiverse when it comes out. That keeps the list at 13 still for stage striking, no?

I'm hoping Miiverse is different that battlefield just so I don't have to fight for PS2 with 13 legal stages. I love the stage and definitely want it legal, but it'd be so much easier to get Skyloft and Wuhu Island legal with it.

 

[90007000]

Ban Lylat Cruise. The ledges are... annoying. I keep recovering under the stage!!!

 

[Funen1]

Skipping past how you most likely didn't read the rest of the thread first, I'll instead ask what exactly are you doing to recover on Lylat? Are you still holding towards the stage instinctively and overshooting them, or misjudging the locations of the ledges relative to your character, or something else entirely? If you're continuously recovering under the stage, then it's more that you have some bad habits that you need to get rid of and/or that you're not yet proficient with controlling your character while recovering, not the stage somehow actively screwing you over. Don't get me wrong, the ledges are indeed harder to sweetspot than on other stages, but it's nothing that a sufficient amount of practice can't overcome.

 

[90007000]

Skipping past how you most likely didn't read the rest of the thread first, I'll instead ask what exactly are you doing to recover on Lylat? Are you still holding towards the stage instinctively and overshooting them, or misjudging the locations of the ledges relative to your character, or something else entirely? If you're continuously recovering under the stage, then it's more that you have some bad habits that you need to get rid of and/or that you're not yet proficient with controlling your character while recovering, not the stage somehow actively screwing you over. Don't get me wrong, the ledges are indeed harder to sweetspot than on other stages, but it's nothing that a sufficient amount of practice can't overcome.

i know, but still...

 

[Funen1]

I'm not gonna pretend that practicing in itself is gonna be easy either, especially with something as strict as Lylat's edges. You're gonna fail a lot, both on your own time and in matches against others, before you get good enough at it (I mean "you" generally here btw). But that's part of the natural process of improving at anything, and everybody who wants to be good at that thing has to go through this process to some degree. Competitive Smash is no different - the tournaments are meant to determine who is the best at the game, so the details of the game's ruleset, including the legality of a stage, should not be based on "catering" to those who aren't willing to put in the work themselves to get better, as others have described.

 

[teluoborg]

And what I'm saying is that we should have some sort of concrete standard for "degenerate". Something we can appeal to for any given situation. Hell, at this point, I'd take basically anything over this, vague, completely arbitrary "well this is okay and this isn't" approach we take to literally every single issue. That's what bugs me the most - that we just arbitrarily declare "this is degenerate". As though there isn't some reasonable standard to be had.

Well a few months ago I proposed in another thread that we rank the stages from the less degenerate/invasive/hazardous to the most. Because since it's impossible for everyone to have the same view on what is degenerate and what isn't then the least we could do is get some consistency in the choices of stage lists. If there's a consensus on the fact that neutrals should be less degenerate/invasive/hazardous than CPs then it's proof that this list can be made.

And with that list, people would be able to have their stagelist premade just by choosing the number of stages they want, and then add a separation between starters and CPs if they don't want to FLSS.

Needless to say it was ignored.

Edit : found it

Spoiler

1-Battlefield/omega
2-Smashville (moving platform)
3-FD (SOLAR FLARE)
4-Duck Hunt (duck killing game)
5-Town and City (questionnable moving platforms)
6-Castle Siege/Delfino (stage changing + temporary walkoffs)
7-Lylat Cruise (tilting take offs)
8-Skyloft/Wuhu (same as 6 + hitboxes)
9-DK 64/Big Battlefield (giant stage)
10-Halberd (RNG based player targetting hitboxes seriously why are people still thinking this stage is cometitively viable)
11-The rest (too big, too many hitboxes, too much rng, change of game mechanics)

To me a good stagelist stops at 6. Lylat is an error and went from being terrible in Brawl to terrible and buggy in Smash 4. Anything below can influence the outcome of a match too much.

Needless to say there are many things to discuss, mainly the placing of Lylat, Halberd, PS2 and the list can be extended to include all stages (though I wouldn't know which of MK8 or WHZ is best suited for competitive play).

 

[webbedspace]

Just two remarks about the above appraisal:
1) Wuhu does not have hitboxes comparable to Skyloft. It has A) the boat prow, B) the single balloon, and C) the water prior to the arena.
2) Big Battlefield is dramatically larger than Kongo 64, in terms of number of platforms, width of base, and distance to blast lines, so ranking them equally is a tad misguided.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Sorry buddy, we don't cater rulesets to individuals like you.

Lol I simply said I didn't like it. Then I gave my reasoning. Also like I said. I don't care if it's legal, but I'll ban it for sure.
Cool your jets BK.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Extraneous paraphernalia and randomly-generated hazards, e.g. items, are still a no-go in competitive play, irrespective of their power.

Quite a rude answer! Define "extraneous paraphernalia".
I still think this stage should not be banned because it's not janky at all (if one actually gets hit by the fruits, it's your fault. Same with Sharknado) and despite being big, it's not campy, and despite having Random designs every time, it's not something that will end up unbalanced.
Anyway, reviving this thread~