Why MK should NOT be banned (the opinion from someone who actually fights them)

[Chuee]

MK isn't going to get banned. Please don't even say anything about him destroying brawl. That statement makes me want to die.

 

[HeroMystic]

And why do I get the feeling that none of what we discuss here will matter and the SBR is just having a ball watching us theorize and talk about what could happen. And just shrug it off. Not to be pessimistic, but,

The SBR is discussing this as well. Hylian gave us a teaser post pages back, and they're pretty much talking the same way we are, just without the spam.

 

[Overswarm]

Not ENTIRELY without the spam.

 

[Magus-Cie]

Why is this topic still alive?

 

[Espy Rose]

MK isn't going to get banned. Please don't even say anything about him destroying brawl. That statement makes me want to die.

He may not be "destroying" Brawl, but he sure as hell is making it twice as boring to play/watch with all the planking, scrooging, etc.

 

[Diddyknight]

Also since there tends to be more mk than any other cast

 

[solecalibur]

MK isn't going to get banned. Please don't even say anything about him destroying brawl. That statement makes me want to die.

How do you know? If these topics still pop up that means there are still people that want him banned and last I check the community vote for his ban was 55% , before people say scrubs/nontounry attenders voted for banning MK what about the other 45% ? are they all pro and cool with you because they like MK?

Why is this topic still alive?

There are things to be discussed , sometimes topics go off topic they normally go back on topic when in check there are enough people that think MK should be banned for this topic to exist if you dont care then dont post.

 

[Alus]

I dont care, but i care about posting!

 

[etecoon]

How do you know? If these topics still pop up that means there are still people that want him banned and last I check the community vote for his ban was 55% , before people say scrubs/nontounry attenders voted for banning MK what about the other 45% ? are they all pro and cool with you because they like MK?

55% isn't enough to ban, there ARE a lot of non-tourney goers that voted(although I wouldn't necessarily insinuate that it benefited either side more, just saying it's unreliable), and ultimately it's up to TO's and tourney attendees. you can host an MK banned tournament now, no one's stopping you. but obviously a lot of people who'd otherwise come will not. likewise if the BBR does decide MK should be banned, there will still be tournaments at which he is not banned, in fact he probably wouldn't really be banned at all here in AN.

 

[MarKO X]

AN is interesting.
We ban the DDD infinite.
But we'll keep MK.

I don't get it.

 

[etecoon]

I guess the logic is that DDD single handedly makes characters inviable while MK does not, but I wouldn't call any of the characters he infinites viable except DK

 

[stingers]

luigi seems viable, at least in md/va (yay boss)

anyway

i bet if we played all our matches on bridge of eldin, mk couldn't do anything gay
of course we'd have to ban ddd but who cares about that guy anyway

 

[MarKO X]

but if everyone is going to play MK anyway, what does it matter if one of those characters are viable or not?

 

[etecoon]

i bet if we played all our matches on bridge of eldin, mk couldn't do anything gay
of course we'd have to ban ddd but who cares about that guy anyway

bridge of eldin for neutral.

 

[cutter]

I guess the logic is that DDD single handedly makes characters inviable while MK does not, but I wouldn't call any of the characters he infinites viable except DK

but if everyone is going to play MK anyway, what does it matter if one of those characters are viable or not?

The real question is "Why should we cater to specific characters?"

We let characters have auto-losses to Sheik in Melee mainly due to her chaingrab, and we didn't ban that.

inb4 "BUT BRAWL IS DIFFERENT!!!!!11111"

 

[HeroMystic]

"but Brawl Is Different!!!!11111"

 

[GodlyOwnage]

I think having one character that is considered broken is a good thing. There will always be something that people consider broken and want to abuse it happens in just about every game. The variety comes from the people that want to be original and not use that character. Therefor someone who wins a tourny as MK will not get as much praise as one that wins with Lucario for instance.

I don't thing MK should be banned I think he just adds to the challenge.

 

[Overswarm]

More people want a fair fight in a tournament than a challenge.


Hell, more people want an advantage.

 

[MarKO X]

More people want a fair fight in a tournament than a challenge.


Hell, more people want an advantage.

thus, MetaKnight.

 

[DanGR]

How big a role does Smashville play in this debate?

Stages become Starter stages when it is agreed by a 2/3 majority in the SBR that each stage is overall a fair stage with only minimal advantages and disadvantages given that has an overall low number of hazards, ineffective hazards, or basic hazards that can be predicted and implemented into a strategy.

Stages become Counterpick stages when it is agreed by a 2/3 majority in the SBR that they are not an overall fair stage in that they give specific advantages and disadvantages to certain types of characters, so much so that it can influence the match directly. Or, that the stage has hazards that disrupt play to such an extent that it cannot be assumed the player can avoid them with minimal effort or the hazards have such incredible damage and knockback that they can directly influence the outcome of a match.

Stages become Banned stages when it is agreed by a 2/3 majority in the SBR that they are not a fair or competitive stage at all, in that certain characters can easily have a near 100% win rate against others at top level play or that a large majority of the cast cannot actively be played on this stage, or that the stage simply requires such a radical change in gameplay that players cannot be reasonably expected to adapt (such as the Cave of Immortality in Hyrule Temple). Hazards can also cause a stage to be banned if they are random in nature and thus directly disrupting gameplay on a consistent basis, or if they are so powerful and/or unavoidable that they directly determine the outcome of a match on a consistent basis.

Under this criteria, Smashville certainly qualifies as a "banned" stage, specifically with this clause:

...certain characters can easily have a near 100% win rate against others at top level play...

When you plank and retreat into circle camping on Smashville it's near impossible for many characters to beat Meta Knight, given he has a percent lead. (-that is, under the current ruleset which doesn't include any clauses about planking or circle camping)

 

[Overswarm]

That isn't actually true, DanGR. It's merely a common perception.

I have used "scrooging" in the past, long before it became popular; do you not think if it was broken I'd have won every national with it? It was popularized by Mew2King vs. Gnes. Gnes was gimped on his first stock and M2K had a HUGE lead against him. He then camped his butt off, and ended up LOSING that advantage until he approached gnes later, winning the game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Remind me again, where is the line drawn between people picking MK because they like him and people picking him because they feel like he is the only way to win?

 

[DanGR]

That isn't actually true, DanGR. It's merely a common perception.

I have used "scrooging" in the past, long before it became popular; do you not think if it was broken I'd have won every national with it? It was popularized by Mew2King vs. Gnes. Gnes was gimped on his first stock and M2K had a HUGE lead against him. He then camped his butt off, and ended up LOSING that advantage until he approached gnes later, winning the game.

Well, I'm not even referencing any of M2K's matches. I haven't seen him do anything I've tried to explain to people to do in the past- and it isn't covered in the SBR's ruleset.

Actually, I'm not even sure if it works against Diddy. He may be too fast.

I'm talking about flat out avoiding characters regardless of their ability to counteract ledge camping by being FASTER with drill rush under Smashville. The characters that cannot run faster than MK's drill rush lose on this stage if MK has the percent lead.

You simply glide to the half way point, use all of your jumps, and then drill rush to the side your opponent is farthest away from. This takes about 5-6 seconds to do.

To avoid arbitrary stalling rules you can just plank until your opponent gets too close, and then perform this tactic with this in mind: "It's too dangerous to go back to that ledge. Why can't I go to the bottom middle of the stage and drill rush to safety?"

With a 60 ledge grab limit you can "stall" this way easily for about 5 minutes.

It's circle camping.

 

[Flayl]

When did gliding/rising pound/homing attack under the stage become camping and not stalling?

 

[DanGR]

When did gliding/rising pound/homing attack under the stage become camping and not stalling?

Ok then.

Make a rule against my circle camping technique, clearly defining what I can't do.

The TOs in my area have sufficed to "Don't do that."

 

[Flayl]

Ok then.

Make a rule against my circle camping technique, clearly defining what I can't do.

The TOs in my area have sufficed to "Don't do that."

Yes, that's the exact same thing you would do with other characters gliding/rising pound and homing attack stalling.

There's a reason the rule is "stalling is banned" and not "if you stay away from your opponent character's reach by X pixels for Y seconds you're disqualified"

 

[Jski]

Well at lest infinite cap was ban the only true tech of mk. I do not know some one who has i want to say 5-6 recovery option seems a bit over doing it in a game where most have 2-3 at best.

 

[Gnes]

That isn't actually true, DanGR. It's merely a common perception.

I have used "scrooging" in the past, long before it became popular; do you not think if it was broken I'd have won every national with it? It was popularized by Mew2King vs. Gnes. Gnes was gimped on his first stock and M2K had a HUGE lead against him. He then camped his butt off, and ended up LOSING that advantage until he approached gnes later, winning the game.

Wrong...he loss the huge lead not because he camped, but because he kept trying horrible approaches at all the wrong times. Had he camped right, it would have been over the second i got gimped, which it should have been judging from the nature of match 2.

 

[Keith_Da_Thief]

brawl will die because it's players suck, that's why.

dumbest post in the thread
edit: i think mk balances the game. people who just stand there and shield grab all day, or people who just cg, or people who just camp in general, cant do that against him...

 

[MetalMusicMan]

An example of a ban that is OK is something like:

"Use of the infinite dimensional cape glitch is banned." This is clear and consise. It is easy to tell when this is being performed and only affects a limited amount of characters (in this case, one).

Another example of a good ban:

"MK and Pit may only fly under the stage one time without touching the ground."

An example of a bad ban is something like:

"Players may only grab the ledge X times in a single game" or "MK may only grab the ledge X times in a single game." These bans do not single out certain moves or techniques, but basic game mecahnics and do so in a way that potentially prohibits natural gameplay (although you probably wouldn't). Saying "players may not glide under the stage" is fine, saying "players may not grab the ledge X times" is not. See the difference?

While I'm not yet certain on my stance on "scrooging", I have to agree with SFP here, in terms of what is a "good" or "bad" ban.

 

[Overswarm]

Well, I'm not even referencing any of M2K's matches. I haven't seen him do anything I've tried to explain to people to do in the past- and it isn't covered in the SBR's ruleset.

Actually, I'm not even sure if it works against Diddy. He may be too fast.

I'm talking about flat out avoiding characters regardless of their ability to counteract ledge camping by being FASTER with drill rush under Smashville. The characters that cannot run faster than MK's drill rush lose on this stage if MK has the percent lead.

You simply glide to the half way point, use all of your jumps, and then drill rush to the side your opponent is farthest away from. This takes about 5-6 seconds to do.

To avoid arbitrary stalling rules you can just plank until your opponent gets too close, and then perform this tactic with this in mind: "It's too dangerous to go back to that ledge. Why can't I go to the bottom middle of the stage and drill rush to safety?"

With a 60 ledge grab limit you can "stall" this way easily for about 5 minutes.

It's circle camping.

That isn't true. You can't stall in that fashion under smashville against many in the cast, and certainly not all. MK's drill rush isn't that fast.

Wrong...he loss the huge lead not because he camped, but because he kept trying horrible approaches at all the wrong times. Had he camped right, it would have been over the second i got gimped, which it should have been judging from the nature of match 2.

Sounds like someone is guessing.

 

[Steeler]

edit: i think mk balances the game. people who just stand there and shield grab all day, or people who just cg, or people who just camp in general, cant do that against him...

yes, because MK is totally all about approaching at the highest level of play...

it's debateable, but i think MK's camp is more powerful than any CG or projectile camp or whatever. here's my question...how do you outplay a MK planking and scrooging properly? how many characters can feasibly stop it?

 

[etecoon]

^ that. agro MK is overrated as hell, MK's all about the "can't touch this" yo

 

[sman5093]

I also don't think that MT should be banned.

 

[RDK]

That is not what overcentralizing means. You're redefining it to suit what you want.

Someone could completely ignore the food and do just fine, by punishing the other player who might get greedy and go for food that was a bad idea to go for. No playstyles except the degenerate ones that people don't like (Planking and scrooging, notably) would be significantly impacted.

It would notably not become all about collecting the food, and therefore not be overcentralized.

Yes, it does overcentralize; it becomes about who can plank the hardest. Food on low isn't going to stop someone who decides to take a stock off of you and plank the rest of the match. Just hitting you and milking the clock in this case won't cut it; it's not that hard to go much farther.

 

[yummynbeefy]

heres a scenario for you


HAVE YOU SEEEEEEN PUFFSTER VS PLANK???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbmu8fGcWaw

 

[RDK]

No, it doesn't increase the depth, it increases the skill gap, it's what sirlin calls an "arbitrary skill test" and serves to only increase entrance barriers.

L-cancelling and wavedashing are a gateway to more advanced techniques and an all-around more developed playing style.

Are you arguing that the game would be just as deep without WD and L-cancelling?

Are you arguing that Brawl is just as deep as Melee?

 

[Jski]

heres a scenario for you


HAVE YOU SEEEEEEN PUFFSTER VS PLANK???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbmu8fGcWaw

This is why you bring a group of ppl to jump players like this at torments hehe.

 

[Nefarious B]

See I've never seen an issue with air camping. It just seems like intelligent zoning, you're not abusing mechanics so much as making it difficult for another character to approach, unlike planking where ledge invincibility is the main issue, or scrooging where the actual stage makes it impossible to hit the MK for extended periods of time.

That being said, the capacity to combine all three of these techniques so that you don't break rules for each individually is obviously the main problem. I used to think it was scrubby to consider banning MK because even though he's the best he fit into a relatively competitive top tier. However, the single best post in this thread was by sfp when he said the main issue is that if we don't ban MK we are going to to have to keep enforcing micro bans to keep play fair, which honestly seems like the ultimate evil. For everyone complaining about matchup surgery, this is exactly that but on a massive scale.

So basically what I'm saying is, I've been converted. MK is just too messy to do anything but ban him totally, there isn't going to be a golden rule that makes him viable (that is to say less viable) for tournament play. Until there is a ban, I'll be using MK as my secondary.

 

[adumbrodeus]

L-cancelling and wavedashing are a gateway to more advanced techniques and an all-around more developed playing style.

Are you arguing that the game would be just as deep without WD and L-cancelling?

Are you arguing that Brawl is just as deep as Melee?

No, I'm arguing that because there's no reason to ever not l-cancel (baring one circumstance that in that MU is still a 4th standard deviation circumstance at best, and still puts you in a horrible circumstance unless you exactly predict the response) having it be non-automatic does not increase the depth and merely artificially increases the entrance barriers to the game, and makes top players feel better about themselves.

Generally I view lack of buffering the same way except that it can have some bad side effects.



Not wavedashing of course, the depth addition is worth the entrance barriers, and you can say the same about a lot of melee stuff, but conscious l-canceling is pointless.


The control scheme is a barrier to play, and every attempt should be made to make it as simple as possible with as much depth as possible because we want players to be able to do exactly what they're thinking they want their character to do, real play can only occur at that level. If you must sacrifice simplicity for depth, then fair enough, but difficulty for difficulty's sake is... stupidity.


That said, clinging to arbitrary skill tests is common, starcraft players cling to APM, we cling to l-canceling, SF players cling to the 360 throw.


But in the overall scheme, it's worthless, it just makes people cling to the "tech skill is everything" plateau for even longer.





Fun fact: Ironically I primarily play melee, and when I played Starcraft my actions per minute was pretty respectable (around 200), I don't plan on taking up Zangeif any time soon though, Sagat is too cool. The thing is, I see arbitrary skill tests for what they are, arbitrary skill tests. However the inclusion of arbitrary skill tests is one component, Melee is still better then Brawl, and Starcraft is still the best competitive rts around, even with a heavy reliance on arbitrary skill tests, though Starcraft's is far more understandable since melee's was PUT IN as an arbitrary skill test, whereas Starcraft's was a symptom of the game's style. The 360 throw would've been fine as a half-circle.


[/sirlin rant]