Why isn't auto L Canceling an option?

[drakargx]

You can alter the length of the dash dance as a mixup. That's why it can't really be implemented as a button

The downsides are less about the players and more about it changing how edge guards work. For instance, other than spikes the risk of recovering low is the possibility of not sweet spotting the ledge, and getting punished for it. Auto sweet spotting would remove that risk. Since each stage and character sweet spots differently, I categorize the mechanic as being less one-dimensional. It's important enough to where I would argue for it, even though it is somewhat frame-specific

I kind of get what you mean, putting mechanics in a game that act as a skill barrier is somewhat needless and make the game less accessible. But I don't think it's always a pointless addition, and that there are some mechanics that are technical but add to the game enough to where it's addition is warranted

 

[Ningildo]

Lol, this troll account is beyond real.

Just ignore and carry on.

IMO.

 

[Foo]

Once this thread gets to a certain point, there's no point discussing anything. Once you establish that it's artificial difficulty, it's purely subjective. If people are saying they like having to press another point, you may as well just stop right there. You could have a controller that shocks you every now and again and some people would like it.

 

[platologic]

Once this thread gets to a certain point, there's no point discussing anything.

I agree. The debate around L-canceling invariably produces the same arguments: pressing extra buttons is pointless, some people like pressing extra buttons, and the PMDT isn't going to change it without an overwhelmingly superior alternative.

This thread was intended to discuss the addition of an auto L-canceling option, a topic far less interesting but far more productive. Unfortunately the discussion seems to be overlooked as "another L-canceling debate" and aside from FireBall Stars' contribution earlier, the PMDT hasn't commented further on the auto L-canceling option. Can't say I blame them, either.

 

[Phaiyte]

Since when does "no" mean "very little"? I don't want to have to continually correct you that L-Cancel does add some (Call it minimal if you will) depth. Repeating a false statement doesn't make it anymore true than the first time.

I'm still trying to figure out how something "adds depth" when matches would be 100% the same if that something never existed. You're still not doing anything in this thread but throwing out logical fallacies and basically overall incorrect information. I suggest you be quiet now until you learn a little something about logic.

 

[Strong Badam]

Lol, this troll account is beyond real.

Just ignore and carry on.

IMO.

Nah, use the report function instead so trolls can be dealt with.

 

[ONLYUSEmeFEET]

Auto L-Canceling would definitely help me with playing the game. Triggers are hard for my toes to reach so anything to lessen that load is appreciated. I know I can remap buttons to my liking however with L-Canceling an auto option would be awesome even if it is not recognized in competitive play.

 

[Quillion]

Forgive me for making a Street Fighter reference (I still hate that series; I can't get into it and I don't really see any reason to either), but...

What if SF3 had auto-parrying? Like every single attack is automatically parried because a lot of SF fans say that parrying is way too difficult and polarizes the community. Wouldn't that game become unplayable because all attacks do no damage?

 

[Frost | Odds]

I think it's beyond question at this point that whatever tiny amount of gameplay depth L-canceling provides, it's not worth the additional strain on players' hands or its problematic effects on PM's learning curve for beginners.

If it were purely a question of gameplay, taking L-cancelling out is almost strictly better. The real problem, in my opinion, is to figure out whether alienating the more elitist portions of the fanbase who take pride in having mastered L-canceling; is worth the benefits to newer players and to the game itself long-term.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Forgive me for making a Street Fighter reference (I still hate that series; I can't get into it and I don't really see any reason to either), but...

What if SF3 had auto-parrying? Like every single attack is automatically parried because a lot of SF fans say that parrying is way too difficult and polarizes the community. Wouldn't that game become unplayable because all attacks do no damage?

Apple and oranges.

And the oranges here require you to predict an opponents action and block perfectly, aka perfectly shielding.

Interaction and counterplay does exist far far stronger there.

 

[666blaziken]

You do realize how easy the spacies will be at sheild pressure once l canceling is automated right? Do you really want that?

 

[Strong Badam]

I never miss L-Cancels when I'm shield pressuring and I don't main spacies. If for some reason they magically become broken in some post-apocalyptic automatic-L-Canceling world, they are already broken.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I never miss L-Cancels when I'm shield pressuring and I don't main spacies. If for some reason they magically become broken in some post-apocalyptic automatic-L-Canceling world, they are already broken.

le gasp

surely you cannot mean to imply that using difficulty as a means of balancing otherwise-broken mechanics and characters, is fundamentally flawed? :o

 

[Foo]

You do realize how easy the spacies will be at sheild pressure once l canceling is automated right? Do you really want that?

Let me restate what has been said for a third time in a slightly different way. If making something slightly easier makes it overpowered, it's already overpowered.

 

[Quillion]

Let me restate what has been said for a third time in a slightly different way. If making something slightly easier makes it overpowered, it's already overpowered.

Oh, so now you want landing lag to be increased?

 

[Ningildo]

No, if auto L-cancelling makes fox broken, then fox is already broken cause L-cancelling manually is easy to begin with is the point, I think. That's why saying "manual L-cancelling keeps fox balanced, but auto makes him broken, so keep manual" is a moot point.

Unless I'm a moron and misunderstood what Foo said, of course. If so, feel free to ignore me until he clarifies himself.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh, so now you want landing lag to be increased?

Strawman fallacy.

He's not saying that, spacies are broken with or without it is what he is saying.

 

[LancerStaff]

You do realize how easy the spacies will be at sheild pressure once l canceling is automated right? Do you really want that?

Because they totally can't rebalance the game.

Or the fact that the only reason it isn't a problem now is because people are lazy and won't tap L.

 

[666blaziken]

Because they totally can't rebalance the game.

Or the fact that the only reason it isn't a problem now is because people are lazy and won't tap L.

but they are balanced, fox's up smash and falco's dair got nerfed and their shines and camping got nerfed. They are glass cannons, so the whole idea is that they do a lot of damage and they die easily, so they are supposed to be hard characters. They can't just make the spacies awful characters because then they wouldn't play like melee characters. Making them harder makes them more like glass cannons; you mess up and you die.

 

[GP&B]

Falco I could agree with but Fox really doesn't fit that.

 

[666blaziken]

I never miss L-Cancels when I'm shield pressuring and I don't main spacies. If for some reason they magically become broken in some post-apocalyptic automatic-L-Canceling world, they are already broken.

I never said they were broken, I just said that the way they play is very glass cannon oriented, and making them easier to use will compensate for their weaknesses, and make it harder to punish under a lot of stress. Their lightness and their difficulty to master makes them hard to use, so removing L cancelling would just make even more people want to use spacies. Remember, you are one of the best pm players so l-canceling is easy for you. Given, I like the way you guys are balancing them; making their auto-combos less of a threat and rewarding players with skill more. Making characters that die easily/kill easily difficult characters is good game design because it tests players tech skill as well as mental game under stress. They may not be the most balanced characters, but they certainly are a lot of fun to play and watch, and they make the game really deep.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

but they are balanced, fox's up smash and falco's dair got nerfed and their shines and camping got nerfed. They are glass cannons, so the whole idea is that they do a lot of damage and they die easily, so they are supposed to be hard characters. They can't just make the spacies awful characters because then they wouldn't play like melee characters. Making them harder makes them more like glass cannons; you mess up and you die.

Why is it we can make Fox and Falco always on the top end and stay strong? But no one else?

That screams bias balancing and I personally hate that.

Being technical is not an excuse to be catered to or made blatantly stronger than most of the cast.

 

[Ningildo]

Ness, for example, is far more technical then spacies by virtue of djc and magnet shenanigans. Yet not top tier.

Anyway, not thread topic (although it's been debated to death already...again), so maybe focus on that instead?

 

[666blaziken]

Why is it we can make Fox and Falco always on the top end and stay strong? But no one else?

That screams bias balancing and I personally hate that.

Being technical is not an excuse to be catered to or made blatantly stronger than most of the cast.

Remember that fox and falco both got nerfed, but even then, that's how glass cannons work. You either are really strong with the mental games and tech skill with good reward for avoiding death, with a neutral as good as the spacies, they need to be difficult. There are other characters with this type of design in project M, but nobody complains because they aren't top tier. Take MK, or roy, both really strong and fast characters, but require a lot of work to do well. MK has a tech that allows him to drift and travel over half of FD and really move around in the neutral/chasing opponents and mix things up, but that tech is really hard and MK dies really easy, but his speed and range make up for it, and I've seen players perform really well and are entertaining to watch. Roy needs to short hop and up air a lot and be really fast with it, but in return, his recovery is short and he has comboable weight, so he is balanced. L-cancelling raises the challenge of the game and makes it really deep because it seperates the good players from the bad players just like any other tech skill.

 

[Little Nemo]

How did this completely change subjects.
I only read the first couple pages and basically OP, and many others, doesn't understand how missing an l-cancel gives your opponent an opportunity to attack. Just like any time you mess up. It's just another way to mess up and give your opponent an advantage which is very cool. It helps change the flow of the battle. Even top players like Mang0 miss l-cancels sometimes. They usually get punished, the commentators almost always comment on it and it changes the flow of the battle a bit until there's a reset or the other guy messes up.
I don't think something that plays such a huge role in the gameplay can be called pointless. Sure, as I said, it's just another way to mess up. But that makes the game all the more interesting. I'm sorry your joints cause you pain when you play. But to me that just means it's something you need to give up. It's the sad truth. If pressing L a little after you press a hurts your hands then I don't think this game, or any game for that matter, is for you.
I used to be for auto-l cancels but then I got really into Smash and I don't see it any other way. I can only l-cancel about 65% of the time and I still feel this way. I think l-canceling is very important to the gameplay.

That said, it would be cool to give an option to allow automatic l-cancels. But then that may open the floodgates to wanting it allowed in tournaments and such. Though that didn't happen with the buffer input.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Remember that fox and falco both got nerfed, but even then, that's how glass cannons work. You either are really strong with the mental games and tech skill with good reward for avoiding death, with a neutral as good as the spacies, they need to be difficult. There are other characters with this type of design in project M, but nobody complains because they aren't top tier. Take MK, or roy, both really strong and fast characters, but require a lot of work to do well. MK has a tech that allows him to drift and travel over half of FD and really move around in the neutral/chasing opponents and mix things up, but that tech is really hard and MK dies really easy, but his speed and range make up for it, and I've seen players perform really well and are entertaining to watch. Roy needs to short hop and up air a lot and be really fast with it, but in return, his recovery is short and he has comboable weight, so he is balanced. L-cancelling raises the challenge of the game and makes it really deep because it seperates the good players from the bad players just like any other tech skill.

But why is it ok to nerf other characters into the ground but not those two?

The l-cancel scare of they would be too good without it would just expose more obviously what is exactly wrong with those two in the first place.

Glass cannon can be good game design, I agree there. How it is implemented here not so much with those two. Not if it's bad bad game design of, it's hard therefore it can be stupidly polarizing and strong.

They are better in 3.5, but their influence on the game is still there.

Again, seperating good and bad players is fine, but their should be value to what they learn and not just be a dumb gating tool. Which is all L-Cancelling is, it gates players for the sake of it, rather than adding real depth to the game.

I'm a firm believer difficulty needs depth, you prevent loads of things people people could do because of an arbitrary input. That seems backwards in development rather than making progress in the controls.

 

[Ningildo]

...and the cycle restarts.

Certain people honestly need to learn that your opinion =/= new, refreshing and totally unheard of (also incapable of being criticized, but people think saying imo is enough to get away with saying stupid and baseless ****), and reading threads through. Points have been made but not addressed or ignored. Thread is being derailed. Etc.

It feels like that part of a thread again.

The part where the thread should close before we recycle in all the wrong ways.

Imo.

 

[Little Nemo]

Again, seperating good and bad players is fine, but their should be value to what they learn and not just be a dumb gating tool. Which is all L-Cancelling is, it gates players for the sake of it, rather than adding real depth to the game.

I don't understand how it doesn't add depth. If you can get punished for missing an l-cancel then how is that not adding depth. It's a new path that the game can take. You choose to l-cancel. You're always choosing the best option. L-canceling is just a part of that. But you can also miss it. Just like any mistake anyone can make.

and reading threads through.

I'm slowly reading the thread and honestly I don't feel like what I said has been stated yet. I'm a little over half way.

Imo.

Totally honest here, no jokes. You are the best.

 

[Seagull Joe]

If you like auto L-canceling then play brawl +

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

...and the cycle restarts.

Certain people honestly need to learn that your opinion =/= new, refreshing and totally unheard of (also incapable of being criticized, but people think saying imo is enough to get away with saying stupid and baseless ****), and reading threads through. Points have been made but not addressed or ignored. Thread is being derailed. Etc.

It feels like that part of a thread again.

The part where the thread should close before we recycle in all the wrong ways.

Imo.

What else would you expect?

It's a debate and it sometimes will comeback to other points.

I still try to offer my insight, one way or another.

On the slim chance the community might see why L-Cancelling is bad game design, but that is false hope I would want my opinion to see fruition. People disagree with me, but eh, my only other option is to play other smash games and refusing full support, which I did with Melee/Smash 4 over PM.

Felt like kinda venting cause tired but W/e, I may or may not be right here, on an objective level, but I don't believe I am wrong and really hate the mechanic.

 

[666blaziken]

Ness, for example, is far more technical then spacies by virtue of djc and magnet shenanigans. Yet not top tier.

Anyway, not thread topic (although it's been debated to death already...again), so maybe focus on that instead?

That's really debatable, waveshining is much harder than DJC because if you do a side b while waveshining, you die. Also, ness is floaty, so he has an easier time recovering and getting out of combos. But it shouldn't matter if ness is top tier or not because he is well designed. Ness has a bad neutral due to his speed and short grab range, but has a good few mixups to make up for it. He combos really easily on most character sizes and has good finishing moves, can recover from really far away, but it's easy to edgeguard him because his pkt2 has the same hurtboxes as hitboxes. Overall, ness is just well designed and fun to use/watch. Fox may be slightly OP, but he is well designed to make up for it due to his glass cannon-ness. The important thing is that fox is easier in pm than in melee (mainly that it's easier to short hop and waveshine) in that pewpewu uses fox instead of marth in pm, so he needs more nerfs to compensate for his easiness.

 

[Ningildo]

I also find L-cancelling fairly pointless and arbitrary, but at this point everything that can be said has. People have only reinforced their own belief with arguments others on their "side" have made, that's the only thing that came of this. There were people who actually bothered to address arguments of the opposing side on both sides, but those exceptions aside...

I'm not saying you're wrong in trying to convince a good chunk of this community of the cons that L-cancelling. It's that in a topic as beaten beyond undead as this, people have already decided what their stance on it is quite firmly and I find trying to convince people with such an opinion otherwise pointless unless you have them at gunpoint.

You don't have to listen to me, though. I am but a lowly user.

 

[SpiderMad]

If you like auto L-canceling then play brawl +

He shouldn't have gotten a warning for this, though I'd like your view further explained

 

[Strong Badam]

No, telling someone to play a different game because they find a mechanic in this game to not be to their liking is pretty obviously trolling and won't be tolerated in this thread. Explain why you feel L-Canceling is a good mechanic or don't post at all.

Though honestly Ningildo has a pretty good point. There's not much left to say, thread seems to be going in circles like most other L-canceling debate threads :\

 

[Phan7om]

Just out of curiosity, how do threads like these stay open after the 1st page?

 

[W.A.C.]

@ Strong Badam , what is your opinion of L cancelling as a mechanic? Do you think it's a good mechanic that makes Project M and Melee overall better games? I previously asked that question, among other related questions to the subject much earlier in the thread, but you never responded. Since so much time has passed and you posted twice in this thread today, I figured it was worth asking. I just haven't really heard much from the developers on why they feel this is a good mechanic that makes Project M an overall better game.

 

[Strong Badam]

If I haven't answered after previously being tagged and asked, it's probably because I don't want to answer and have no obligation to. Sorry bro.

 

[Quillion]

L-cancelling is just an offensive ukemi. No one complains about the ukemi for defensive purposes (despite the burning hatred towards "defense" that PM fans are allegedly reputed for). Why would you complain about it for offensive purposes?

 

[LancerStaff]

L-cancelling is just an offensive ukemi. No one complains about the ukemi for defensive purposes (despite the burning hatred towards "defense" that PM fans are allegedly reputed for). Why would you complain about it for offensive purposes?

Because getting hit in the first place is typically unexpected. For example, teching a ground bounce in SSB4. Easy if you're prepared for it, downright impossible if you aren't.

Unlike attacking where it's always expected outside of an unseen platform, and it's not difficult either. You'll get like 99% of them if you're only average.

 

[GP&B]

L-cancelling is just an offensive ukemi. No one complains about the ukemi for defensive purposes (despite the burning hatred towards "defense" that PM fans are allegedly reputed for). Why would you complain about it for offensive purposes?

How do you participate in the bulk of the discussion from the last 5 pages and still come up with faulty comparisons like this?
LancerStaff already covered the first part of it, but choosing not to ukemi can be a mixup and also gives you the option of waiting to choose your wakeup to fake out your opponent. That's without mentioning that the ukemi in and of itself comes with three options that you can respond to your opponent with, which is the foundation of techchases.

So no, L-Canceling is not an offensive ukemi. It offers no additional options nor does choosing not to use it provide any benefits. That is why it was agreed upon pages ago by both sides that it's an arbitrary input.