Why is Wuhu Island not legal in most rulesets?

[Yikarur]

I have one important question. I always have discussions here and there about the legality of Wuhu.
Most german tournaments have the stage legal since the game's release.
This stage has caused no problems so far.
So why is it not legal in most rulesets? Why are Delfino and Castle Siege (and Halberd) legal most of the time but not Wuhu Island?

I think there is absolutely no reason to ban Wuhu Island but keep Delfino and Castle Siege. Wuhu Island is on the very same level as Delfino and Castle Siege. The only difference is that Delfino and Castle Siege are ported from Brawl and known.
Are people really just not willing to learn a new Stage? I want to hear your reasonings. I don't like the stage" is not a reasoning

This Thread is not in the "Stage Legality Discussion Thread" because everyone who is not concerned about more stages will look in that thread. And I want people to read and to think about this, because I'm always a bit disappointed when Wuhu Island is not legal at a tournament.

Thank you !

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Wuhu is huge!

 

[Mario766]

Stage lists are getting shrinked now, not expanded.

Socal already is bumping Delfino, Castle Siege and Halberd off counterpick lists.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Stage lists are getting shrinked now, not expanded.

Socal already is bumping Delfino, Castle Siege and Halberd off counterpick lists.

I'm really annoyed about this, honestly.

OP: Wuhu Isn't commonly legal because it wasn't legal at EVO, which is because it wasn't legal at Apex, which is because there was a big hubbub over an instant-kill glitch on the boat that has since been patched out. Also some people just think transforming stages have cooties or something, IDK.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

In my opinion transition stages are great for mixing up camping wars. it creates openings and keeps the players moving rather than stagnant in a camping spot.

Also I still don't get why this isn't in the stage legality thread... But ya I wouldn't mind playing in a competitive setting on this stage. Feels fairly fair to me. But maybe there is something we're missing that others see.

 

[Yikarur]

I'm really annoyed about this, honestly.

OP: Wuhu Isn't commonly legal because it wasn't legal at EVO, which is because it wasn't legal at Apex, which is because there was a big hubbub over an instant-kill glitch on the boat that has since been patched out. Also some people just think transforming stages have cooties or something, IDK.

I remember how people argued because of the glitch.. now it's removed and it's still not reconsidered. It's true that once a stage is abandoned it will never return.

 

[blackghost]

this stage is arguably more fair than either halbred or delfino. delfino blastzones aren't stable during transformations. and halbred is WAY too small to remaoin legal (IMO). Also Wuhu transforms VERY quickly it might be ten-15 seconds per stop. all the platorm layouts are good and the stage hits you way less than halbred does. people just hate anything with transformations (or anything not originally form melee.) people still think Duck hunt is a bad stage

 

[Ghostbone]

Players are unwilling to learn new things/adapt to change.

You're a TO, you legalise Wuhu, all your players complain about it because all the majors don't run it/because they don't like it, so you ban the stage.
Majors aim to please everyone, so they go the safe route and use conservative rulesets.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I'm going to tackle this question from a slightly different angle.

What value does Wuhu offer that Delfino and Castle Siege do not? It's a serious question, not a rhetorical one, as I've pretty much never experimented with or read much about the stage.

I think it's important for the legal stage list to encompass as many stage types as possible, but not necessarily have a large number of individual stages, as that dilutes the power of stage bans. Having one or possibly two transforming stages is good for variety's sake, but if I'm playing in a match-up where I'm really hurt by a constantly changing environment (regardless of the differences between the stage layouts themselves), having 3 or more transforming stages in a metagame where I'm only allotted 2 stage bans doesn't sound too great.

So, I'd be open for ditching one of the existing transforming stages and replacing it with Wuhu if a good case was presented for it, but I'm not that crazy about appending Wuhu to the existing list. And I feel like it'd be an uphill battle to make that change in any case.

(This is also why I'm not that crazy about legalizing Dream Land 64, either. The wind mechanic and other characteristics don't differentiate the stage enough for me, and the current starter stage list basically feels like 2 of its 5 stages are Battlefield as a result.)

 

[Piford]

Because no one ever gave it a chance.

 

[chaos11011]

I'm going to tackle this question from a slightly different angle.

What value does Wuhu offer that Delfino and Castle Siege do not? It's a serious question, not a rhetorical one, as I've pretty much never experimented with or read much about the stage.

Players that excel at constantly capturing stage control but do not fair well against opponent's who take advantage of the shrinking blast lines in Delfino can take people to this stage. The same can be said with Castle Siege, as if you're a character who relies on projectiles but as a player, is great at reclaiming stage/neutral as it transforms, you probably don't want to go to CS because of the statues of the second formation and the tilting of the third. Wuhu also provides Final Destination-esque formats that, unlike Delfino and Castle Seige, are completely flat.

Wuhu is also known for it's defensive nature and honestly, players need to understand that defense isn't exactly a bad game. If you're a player who needs more time to analyze your win condition, whether it be because your opponent doesn't give you time to breath due to their constant in-your-face barrages or something else of the sort, Wuhu can be advantageous to the meta in that regard. That being said, Wuhu and transforming stages alike can also counter a specific type of defensive nature: stall. Characters who need to set up shop like Duck Hunt or characters who rely on edges to maintain a lead like Custom Villager can be counterpicked to one of the transforming stages as it hinders their ability to do so. Having multiple transforming stages make sure that a simple ban or two doesn't completely give the stall players the universal advantage. By having more transforming stages, it allows players to pick which stage is better to combat that character but also benefits theirs to the best possible degree. The stall player can also choose to ban the greater evils and fight on the lesser evil. Sure, some of the layouts are campy, but the stage also counters stall in it's transforming nature.

However, I personally would like Skyloft to be introduced to the stage list before Wuhu (but have both eventually), as Skyloft differs from Delfino in the aspect that there is no water, as that way transforming stages are more varied. If I recall correctly, Robin players do not enjoy the water in Delfino/Wuhu but very much so adore Skyloft. All in all though, if we have both Battlefield and DL64 legal despite their similarities because of a niche difference, then Wuhu should be allowed in unison with Delfino/Castle Seige

 

[Zage]

How Halberd, a stage with hazards that actively try to kill you, is legal over Wuhu I'll never understand....

 

[Raijinken]

How Halberd, a stage with hazards that actively try to kill you, is legal over Wuhu I'll never understand....

Grandfather rulesets are one of the biggest plagues on Smash's community.

Stadium 2 was lame in Brawl. It's fixed now. Banned.
Halberd was legal in Brawl. Basically the same if a bit favored towards already-good characters (as in Brawl, if I recall). Still legal in many places.
Dreamland was starter in Melee. It's either starter or counterpick in any game that includes it. Nobody once considers banning it, even when random wind mechanics are actually relevant to certain characters/move properties.

With the sole exception of characters, it takes a blatant change towards broken for anyone to consider banning something, and once it's gone, good luck ever getting it back.

 

[Charey]

Stadium 2 is still a bad stage for competitive play, the Salem weeklies had it legal for a long time but banned it somewhat recently because of the problems it has.

The default stage is good but is the only good part of the stage.
Ice isn't that bad but it doesn't add anything, it just pushes players out when they hit a shield.
The Flying form makes approaching a pain because short hopped aerials take too long to use limiting the use of air gameplay ironically enough.
Rock makes camping simple with the mountain in the center making getting past that extremely difficult, it's sort of like trying to get past the tree in PS1's fire form.
The Electric form makes any combat a mess with both player quickly dragged out to edge, forget about anything but hopping around trying to not get forced to the ledge, and even that can't be followed up on because your opponent has to forget about edge guarding because they can't stand in a place to punish a get-up option.

When Ice mechanics are the best alternate form, it's a sign that there is too many problems with having the stage legal.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I wish smash rule sets were determined by liberals rather than conservatives... I think custom moves and more stages make the game more fun... Pretty soon were all going to have to use Mario and play on final destination only.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Short version: smash community is awful.

Long version: CBF.

 

[[Deuce]]

I have a huge problem with the way people are coining tiny stage lists as "conservative" whereas in a sense the larger stage lists should actually be more conservative as it is closer to preserving the vanilla game as it is. By placing rules that change the natural flow of things (keynesian economics) does it become more liberal. It just shows that there is a massive grey area between the two definitions and shouldn't be used argumentatively.

Stuff like this

Majors aim to please everyone, so they go the safe route and use conservative rulesets.

irks me because of the way its framed as "the safe route" as if everyone agrees with these stages and as you add more less are willing to be inclusive. Well I DISAGREE as it is far more likely if you take a randomized sample of players in the entirety of the pool of people who played the game, the comment "why is this stage banned" will come across more often than "why is this stage not banned." Some of the reasons are obvious, some have very little substance to them "this stage is jank". Remember, top players are the minority, and the smash community tends to suffer from herd mentality. We don't need to let them push their rulesets on us.

13 stage FLSS.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I have a huge problem with the way people are coining tiny stage lists as "conservative" whereas in a sense the larger stage lists should actually be more conservative as it is closer to preserving the vanilla game as it is. By placing rules that change the natural flow of things (keynesian economics) does it become more liberal. It just shows that there is a massive grey area between the two definitions and shouldn't be used argumentatively.

Stuff like this

irks me because of the way its framed as "the safe route" as if everyone agrees with these stages and as you add more less are willing to be inclusive. Well I DISAGREE as it is far more likely if you take a randomized sample of players in the entirety of the pool of people who played the game, the comment "why is this stage banned" will come across more often than "why is this stage not banned." Some of the reasons are obvious, some have very little substance to them "this stage is jank". Remember, top players are the minority, and the smash community tends to suffer from herd mentality. We don't need to let them push their rulesets on us.

13 stage FLSS.

Your right, the word "liberal" and "conservative" can be ambiguous in this case. And I agree with your post in that more people ask why something is banned rather than why isn't this banned. For this reason I think we need a new stage list by starting from scratch and giving every stage a re-analysis. Though this is easier said than done...

 

[Raijinken]

A ruleset (like a mindset) is conservative when it under-values or ignores progressive trends, notable changes in popular opinion (or in games, game mechanics), etc and instead chooses that which "has always been."

Liberal rulesets are less set in tradition and more willing to experiment with newer things, or give old things a new shot.

But especially in Smash, most stage-liberals are totally cool with playing on the standard conservative stages (even if they don't like the limitations or think it's too-biased towards certain playstyles), while most stage conservatives are considered to be justified in their johning when anything so much as moves offscreen. So unless a big-name TO is majorly devoted to trying to expand the meta and either has a playerbase willing to help (or if the TO is willing to sacrifice part of his playerbase), an event is more likely to be a financial (and, to a degree, social/gameplay with more and better players showing up) success if the ruleset errs on the side of conservative.

As for me, nothing ventured nothing gained, so I run Kalos and MK8 legal whenever I TO

 

[ParanoidDrone]

As for me, nothing ventured nothing gained, so I run Kalos and MK8 legal whenever I TO

I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

A ruleset (like a mindset) is conservative when it under-values or ignores progressive trends, notable changes in popular opinion (or in games, game mechanics), etc and instead chooses that which "has always been."

Liberal rulesets are less set in tradition and more willing to experiment with newer things, or give old things a new shot.

But especially in Smash, most stage-liberals are totally cool with playing on the standard conservative stages (even if they don't like the limitations or think it's too-biased towards certain playstyles), while most stage conservatives are considered to be justified in their johning when anything so much as moves offscreen. So unless a big-name TO is majorly devoted to trying to expand the meta and either has a playerbase willing to help (or if the TO is willing to sacrifice part of his playerbase), an event is more likely to be a financial (and, to a degree, social/gameplay with more and better players showing up) success if the ruleset errs on the side of conservative.

As for me, nothing ventured nothing gained, so I run Kalos and MK8 legal whenever I TO

I really enjoy your opinions and wish more TO's thought like you. People complain that this game is too campy but won't allow us to pick good counter pics against campy characters. Stages like wuhu, kalos, and dk64 all have potential and are part of the game. I'm just sick of playing the same 5 maps...

i saw you posting in another thread about the new DLC stages. What do you think of those?

 

[Raijinken]

I really enjoy your opinions and wish more TO's thought like you. People complain that this game is too campy but won't allow us to pick good counter pics against campy characters. Stages like wuhu, kalos, and dk64 all have potential and are part of the game. I'm just sick of playing the same 5 maps...

i saw you posting in another thread about the new DLC stages. What do you think of those?

I don't see any glaring issues with Peach's Castle. The ground is uneven, but that doesn't matter, and Lylat's does worse. The triangles are techable and can theoretically create a very narrow cave-of-life situation, but removing a mirrored angle of KO opportunity doesn't strike me as a problematic unless you're one of the relatively few characters who heavily depends on diagonal kills. It's also infeasible to camp the bump for long, due to the platform's motion. The bumper is negligible. The stage is pretty big, though, and I could foresee a lot of issues catching faster characters in several matchups. I think it deserves testing and/or experimental legality. I can see no reason whatsoever to ban it in Doubles.

Hyrule's a bit trickier. The tornados, while a far more avoidable hazard than basically any except for the Mario Karts, it's also lethal around regular kill percent (instead of later) and doesn't follow a predictable spawn pattern (if I remember correctly from ParanoidDrone's research). There's also the whole cave of life/camp wall situation on the right-hand side. From what I've played on it, perhaps due to the scaling of characters and whatnot in Smash4, it didn't seem like as big of an issue as it was in 64 or in Project M, but I haven't had much player-versus-player time there to make a better judgment. Mostly due to the cave-of-life scenarios, I'd probably ban that one, or leave it for doubles where it's a bit easier to siege the area.

Dream Land 64 is a slightly different Battlefield with a random windbox that will mildly interfere with things. There's no reason to ban it unless you are 100% anti-randomness and have also banned Smashville for its balloon.

Suzaku Castle is pretty lame, with several easy camping spots, a permanent walkoff, and so on. It's a miserable stage, and I wouldn't call it playable under any ruleset except Anything Goes.

Also, all that said, Kongo 64 is a nice stage over-all, but it's pretty easy for certain characters to circle camp in a lot of matchups.

I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Actually... several people have been commenting to that effect lately. Maybe I'll start some sort of theory blog and keep a link in my sig or something.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Actually... several people have been commenting to that effect lately. Maybe I'll start some sort of theory blog and keep a link in my sig or something.

I'd be a fan of that

 

[smashbro29]

Because unlike the first 3 games in the series this one was cut down to size almost immediately after launch.

It's funny how scared they are of change, 4 isn't Brawl. Really there isn't a good reason for most bans, it's just kids looking at what Melee has after a decade and going "well we should have that too" while being really loud about it.

 

[T0MMY]

I think there is absolutely no reason to ban Wuhu Island but keep Delfino and Castle Siege. Wuhu Island is on the very same level as Delfino and Castle Siege.

Good point, get rid of Delfino and Castle Siege too!

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Good point, get rid of Delfino and Castle Siege too!

No!!! Don't make the stage list even smaller!!!

 

[chaos11011]

People complain that this game is too campy but won't allow us to pick good counter pics against campy characters.

I agree with this so much. While customs are unrelated to this discussion, I see so many people complain about Villager's Extreme Balloon Trip and how unapproachable he is from the ledge. If we had more transforming stages that contains walk offs, they'd be much easier to manage. If we have 1 or even 0 stationary stages (not counting Town & City), then characters like that become a threat and people are more inclined to ban more things. The less we ban, the better. It makes polarizing strategies tame and it helps with the depth of the game. The game is still pretty young and much like how Jigglypuff and Olimar became successful over time in Melee and Brawl, respectively, we could possibly see a stage rise into appreciation after it was shunned by many to be a bad stage. I have so much hope that Wuhu, Skyloft or Peach's Castle will be that stage.

 

[[Deuce]]

A ruleset (like a mindset) is conservative when it under-values or ignores progressive trends, notable changes in popular opinion (or in games, game mechanics), etc and instead chooses that which "has always been."

Liberal rulesets are less set in tradition and more willing to experiment with newer things, or give old things a new shot.

See but the problem here is the point of view. imo the "progressive trend" in question was changing vanilla smash back in the early days of melee to turning off items, limiting the stage list (did you know the grand finals of TG4 was played at Brinstar Depths? or that WC ran items at one point? or that Azen and Anden played a GF at Green Greens?), and 4 stock. Because of this it makes the terminology a lot more ambiguous.

Yes you'll get more players by hosting a more smaller stagelist as those who are in favor of a wider list will likely appease. Both sides are at fault for this for being too stubborn and too accepting. And in the end if its all about getting more players, then it's really just a money thing- are we willing to trade greater profitability for a better foundation and competitive integrity?

 

[Infinite901]

Good point, get rid of Delfino and Castle Siege too!

Not trying to attack you personally, but don't act like that. It's obvious what they were saying and to take it so obviously out of context makes look like a huge *******.


On-topic: Because people freaked out over that boat glitch and auto-banned and never gave it a thought since. (I've legitimately met people who have no clue that that got patched.)

 

[C0rvus]

Simply put, it fills the same role as Delfino, whilst being larger and with hazards. Not that it's inherently illegal, it's just redundant. Delfino is already getting axed from some stage lists, which is understandable if you favor a conservative stage list, but I don't mind playing on less "safe" stages. I just wish my local had an actual stagelist. We just hit random and pray or gentleman to Smashville, which is... ugh.

 

[T0MMY]

Not trying to attack you personally, but don't act like that. It's obvious what they were saying and to take it so obviously out of context makes look like a huge *******.

Successful troll is successful. Thanks for taking the bait, mate. lol

On-topic: Because people freaked out over that boat glitch and auto-banned and never gave it a thought since. (I've legitimately met people who have no clue that that got patched.)

Actually people didn't like the stage since day 1 and the boat glitch was just the reason they needed to get the stage out of tournament use. Kind of pithy of them to do it that way, but the stage sucks for competition, so I'm not complaining.

 

[Zorcey]

I'd personally prefer all the moving stages done away with. But I think the reason stages like Wuhu and Skyloft etc. aren't legal is mostly size - you must admit the stages are large, even in neutral form.

 

[chaos11011]

Simply put, it fills the same role as Delfino, whilst being larger and with hazards. Not that it's inherently illegal, it's just redundant. Delfino is already getting axed from some stage lists, which is understandable if you favor a conservative stage list, but I don't mind playing on less "safe" stages. I just wish my local had an actual stagelist. We just hit random and pray or gentleman to Smashville, which is... ugh.

Wuhu has different quirks to it that make it different to Delfino. The flat "FD" transformations of Wuhu are different to Delfino's curved "FD" islands, which is pretty important to note as some characters perform better or worse with slants. Also like you said, it's larger, which in turn vastly makes it different to Delfino, as the stage aids more defensive, projectile based characters more than Delfino would with its blastline transformations, curved islands and wall formats (some defensive characters could prefer Wuhu's wall formats and others could prefer Delfino's). Wuhu as a whole is more defensive, especially in its multiple stops, so I can see many characters prefering Wuhu to Delfino. You also can't count out platform layout. Characters might prefer the Wuhu main platform layouts or dislike Delfino's main platform layouts.

Not allowing Wuhu because it's ~close enough~ to Delfino is odd as we have stages like Battlefield/Dreamland and Final Destination/Smashville, where the former is practically the same stage with a minor difference and the latter are both flat stages but one has a moving platform. People need to stop looking at touring stages at face value and see the details of each aspect of these stages like we would with the stages I compared above. I wouldnt take the same people I would in FD to Smashville, just like how I wouldnt take the same people I would take to Wuhu to Delfino.

@ Zorcey is there any reason why you want the transforming stages gone? From a competitive aspect, they bring something to the table that many stages can't do (temporary edge removal, testing the player to be able to constantly capture stage control during the multiple transformations) or can't do as effectively (Town & City; stage adaptation, multiple layouts that can benefit different characters). It would be a shame to completely throw away a transforming stage because how much good it can bring to the meta. This isnt variety for the sake of variety, this is variety because the stages benefits certain characters that sometimes, stationary stages can't do. These stages promote good mobility, adaptation and even sometimes defensive play (or aggressive play to take advantage of a formation that your opponent cant deal with too well) while countering certain types of defensive characters (tree planting / ledge stalling Villager comes to mind), along with the aforementioned niches like different platform layouts and the like.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Simply put, it fills the same role as Delfino, whilst being larger and with hazards. Not that it's inherently illegal, it's just redundant. Delfino is already getting axed from some stage lists, which is understandable if you favor a conservative stage list, but I don't mind playing on less "safe" stages. I just wish my local had an actual stagelist. We just hit random and pray or gentleman to Smashville, which is... ugh.

If redundancy is an argument then Dream Land should be banned without question. It's not that different from Battlefield.

 

[[Deuce]]

If redundancy is an argument then Dream Land should be banned without question. It's not that different from Battlefield.

Hell, we may as well ban battlefield and smashville because its pretty much just FD with platforms, given his line of reasoning.

The only literal similarity between Wuhu and Delfino is that they both transform. And that they have ample amounts of blue in their color scheme.

 

[Zorcey]

is there any reason why you want the transforming stages gone? From a competitive aspect, they bring something to the table that many stages can't do (temporary edge removal, testing the player to be able to constantly capture stage control during the multiple transformations) or can't do as effectively (Town & City; stage adaptation, multiple layouts that can benefit different characters). It would be a shame to completely throw away a transforming stage because how much good it can bring to the meta. This isnt variety for the sake of variety, this is variety because the stages benefits certain characters that sometimes, stationary stages can't do. These stages promote good mobility, adaptation and even sometimes defensive play (or aggressive play to take advantage of a formation that your opponent cant deal with too well) while countering certain types of defensive characters (tree planting / ledge stalling Villager comes to mind), along with the aforementioned niches like different platform layouts and the like.

You do make a good argument for the moving stages, I'll give you that. It's mostly walkoffs and silly blastzones for me, as well a few idiosyncrasies per stage like water, hazards, size, etc. I never feel good about a victory at a moving stage, and I feel worse about a loss.

 

[Raijinken]

If redundancy is an argument then Dream Land should be banned without question. It's not that different from Battlefield.

It's just random-wind Battlefield with slightly higher platforms, after all.

But everyone knows Final Destination is just Palutena's Temple that got hit by a really big bulldozer, so we really should just only play on Palutena's Temple.

All jokes aside, though. Traveling stages aren't bad, and their dynamic form is nice for giving certain characters the advantage at certain times, instead of one character the advantage all the time. It's not like we're talking about legalizing Big Blue or anything.

 

[Zorcey]

It's not like we're talking about legalizing Big Blue or anything.

Big Blue = Best stage FYI

 

[Piford]

It's just random-wind Battlefield with slightly higher platforms, after all.

But everyone knows Final Destination is just Palutena's Temple that got hit by a really big bulldozer, so we really should just only play on Palutena's Temple.

All jokes aside, though. Traveling stages aren't bad, and their dynamic form is nice for giving certain characters the advantage at certain times, instead of one character the advantage all the time. It's not like we're talking about legalizing Big Blue or anything.

Just to say, the wind isn't random. It blows to the side where the players are.

 

[Raijinken]

Just to say, the wind isn't random. It blows to the side where the players are.

On what timing? Is that also consistent?