why is there such a drought of Bowser JR.'s

[Omegascizor456]

Tweek is the only really high level bowser junior i have seen, am i missing something or is it actually a drought? Also do you think this is because he is difficult and precise or because he is not a good character, cuz imo i think hes pretty good!

 

[Asa]

Cuz he's not as good as other characters

 

[xDizxy]

He's mid high tier at best. Hopefully bowser jr gets the ike treatment next patch.
Here are buffs he needs to climb the ranks

1. A kill throw at lower percentage and more powerful throws in general
2. A combo throw. Make the angle send upwards so he can string uairs.
3. Bowser jr can move b4 mechakoopa
4. Bowser jr doesn't get gimped by weak attacks
5. Sweetspot is bigger on Fsmash

1,2 and 5 are the most important ones the rest are just bonuses.

 

[S_B]

Yeah, I never see koopa kids in competitive play or even online modes.

He's one of those characters who I kinda forget is in the game from time to time...

 

[Omegascizor456]

Yeah, I never see koopa kids in competitive play or even online modes.

He's one of those characters who I kinda forget is in the game from time to time...

i feel the same way

 

[Blanc]

if you look at all you can find competitive bowser jrs, maybe not as good as Tweek but you can find great ones that play regularly in tournaments. V1cegrip is hella good, Hatsuyuki is a japanese bowser jr who looks pretty good and we have 2 competitive bowser jr's who place decently in canada, Moosebones and myself (shameless plug). if you look on youtube for "bowser jr smash 4 tournament" you can find some frauds on s@x and then other bowser jrs. you can easily see if a bowser jr is bad if he uses cannonball on purpose or more than once a match.

 

[Omegascizor456]

if you look at all you can find competitive bowser jrs, maybe not as good as Tweek but you can find great ones that play regularly in tournaments. V1cegrip is hella good, Hatsuyuki is a japanese bowser jr who looks pretty good and we have 2 competitive bowser jr's who place decently in canada, Moosebones and myself (shameless plug). if you look on youtube for "bowser jr smash 4 tournament" you can find some frauds on s@x and then other bowser jrs. you can easily see if a bowser jr is bad if he uses cannonball on purpose or more than once a match.

lol cannonball...

 

[Kevandre]

I've used Cannonball well in the past.When they're recovering they don't expect it

 

[Fatmanonice]

It's because he's a largely underwhelming character. He's a lot like Sheik in Brawl, a character that can do a lot of cool things and overwhelm less experienced players but has very exploitable weaknesses and anything he can do, there's like half a dozen characters that can do it better. He doesn't have it as bad as most of the other heavy weights but he still leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Duck SMASH!]

Honestly it isn't surprising.
Jr. is a gimmicky character. His ground game is primarily defensive, his projectiles are weird, and his grab is garbage. Your main goal is to combo enemies in the air with your excellent aerials and with side B as a mobility booster.
Once a competitive player learns his tricks and how to overcome them, Jr seriously struggles against a competent player.

We've highlighted his flaws before, but the main thing is that people don't want to invest the time to learn how to use a newcomer who can't deliver results and who is held back by frustrating flaws.

At least others like Zelda have been around a while so others are more comfy with her strengths and weaknesses.

If you want to change this, represent Jr at your tourneys. Get out there and win!
It will be hard because you are fighting the game as well as your opponent, but if you do you will be regarded as one of the great users of this character like Tweek and V1cegrip ( to give a few examples. Blanc gave a few other good ones too).

 

[Fatmanonice]

There's also the fact that he really doesn't have any good matchups against any of the top ten with the top five being especially bad. As long as are as good as they are, I don't think Bowser Jr has a shot of becoming viable.

 

[Ridel]

I've used Cannonball well in the past.When they're recovering they don't expect it

Dude have you tried ledge cancel canon? It's actually really good against characters who recover horizontally.

 

[Reila]

Bowser Jr is a rare character to be seen for the same reasons other mid/bottom tier characters are rarely seen. Players tend to flock to whichever characters are considered good by the top players. That's perfectly understandable when it comes to local tournaments and stuff, but I find it a shame that "tier placements" affect online play as well.

 

[Metalex]

I think it's a combination of having a "weird" moveset, very few high level players, being a kind of difficult character to learn and that he generally is percieved as a bad character.

Also, if we look at it from a casual players perspective it seems like most people like Bowser Jr/Koopalings as a character, but very many dislike the design choice of having them ride around in the koopa clownkart at all times which could be another contributing reason.

 

[Ridel]

I think it's a combination of having a "weird" moveset, very few high level players, being a kind of difficult character to learn and that he generally is percieved as a bad character.

Also, if we look at it from a casual players perspective it seems like most people like Bowser Jr/Koopalings as a character, but very many dislike the design choice of having them ride around in the koopa clownkart at all times which could be another contributing reason.

Really? I found the design ingenious. At this point I found that Bowser Jr had been becoming more prominent in his Clown Car rather then the brush so I was on board for the design choice. Being able to play as the Koopalings made it all the more better. I still can't believe I can play Ludwig.

 

[Metalex]

Really? I found the design ingenious. At this point I found that Bowser Jr had been becoming more prominent in his Clown Car rather then the brush so I was on board for the design choice. Being able to play as the Koopalings made it all the more better. I still can't believe I can play Ludwig.

Yeah it's just that i have read about/heard just as much dislike for the design as praise for it. I was sceptical when it was announced since i had hoped for Bowser Jr with a paintbrush moveset, but i really found the design cool when the game was released, especially since i now can play as Morton

 

[pikazz]

if you want to see some swedish Jr action, you can always try to look after me 'w' I did got to Loser Semi in a large sweden tourny with Jr only around New Year and got to third in doubles (not Jr only) and Top 8 with Jr only this summer the main reason why I didnt got to over Top8 was I had to leave, all the other players and even the hoster said I would make it to atleast Winner Semi. got to Top8 of over 100 that was in the tourny with no lose a match Streak

the main thing I see why Jr isnt higher is of 3 things:

1. Design. it could be like lack of Paintbrush or dislikes of either Clowncart, Koopalings or Jr himself
2. unexplored and difficult to learn.
3. doesnt shine in "quality" in one area, meaning other character can do better than he does in some aspects.

however, why I love Jr is because:

1. unexplored and fits my playstyle
2. despite of not having a shining "Quality", he has some really great "Quantities" meaning he can do more stuff around on many things instead for being just excellent on one thing
3. He is basically "Prince Disjoint" himself due almost none of his attack has a hurtbox
4. I love his clown cart design, much better than if he would be a Bowser/Squirtle clone with a paintbrush
5. Koopalings were perfect alts for Jr, especially Iggy

in my eyes, he should be between High to Mid due his Quantities, what hinderes him of being higher is more kill throws, combo throws and his weakness in example UpB and SideB unsureness on shield/approaches

 

[aircaves]

In my opinion it's because of the way the character is built. Bowser Jr. Is a high mobility, combo heavy, hevier weighted character that can kill. When looked at that he is pretty great BUT

1)his weight is really good for combos from anyone (ESPECIALLY anyone from the top of the tier list)
2)his grab is absolute garbage (Which is something a LOT of people look for when choosing a character)
3)the jack of all trades master of none isn't appealing to most people
4)He falls in the middle of the tier list which makes him less noticeable (People pay more attention to the top and bottom of the tier list and not much on the middle.)
5)There are not many high tier players shining light on him
6)With a cast of over 50 characters it is hard to stand out when bowser jr doesn't have anything that truly sets him apart (like shulk's manado arts or little mac's KO punch)
7) It also doesn't help that the mushroom kingdom is full of good characters so why choose him when you could choose them (Rosalina, mario, peach, AND luigi (but bowser sets himself apart by being the powerhouse he is and Doc is grouped with the other clones so he doesn't have the same problem))
8) PRACTICALLY NO ONE KNOWS WHAT HE CAN DO, since he takes a while to learn, no one commits to him because his moves don't seem the best when in reality he can combo for days.

Those are the reasons I think he isn't chosen

 

[Reila]

7) It also doesn't help that the mushroom kingdom is full of good characters so why choose him when you could choose them (Rosalina, mario, peach, AND luigi (but bowser sets himself apart by being the powerhouse he is and Doc is grouped with the other clones so he doesn't have the same problem))

Because you like the character???? Which is pretty much the most important factor for anyone who doesn't allow competition to get over their heads.

 

[aircaves]

Because you like the character???? Which is pretty much the most important factor for anyone who doesn't allow competition to get over their heads.

while that is a major factor, Bowser Jr. is not the most popular character in the cast, Mario, luigi, rosalina, bowser and peach are more liked than him. Plus his difficulty curve can make people turn away from him faster. There isn't just one reason he isn't played much it's a mountain of reasons. The reason I brought up the mushroom kingdom was to show that he isn't a stand alone character from his series, and the mushroom kingdom is saturated with characters. You could even through yoshi, wario, and DK in the mix too. I was just using it as another possible reason, I admit it isn't as big as the others but it still is a possibility.

 

[Dessa]

I'm voting it's the bad grab and the sometimes-wonky recovery.

 

[DonutsKy]

BowJow's grabbing game is not that bad if you place your set-ups correctly. For instance, when you release a mecha, your opponent is very likely to shield once he/she sees it approaching. There's a relatively guaranteed grab for you (depending on how you chase the mecha and anticipate your opponents move). Yes, his grab is laggy and has no true combos at any given %, but it is not complete trash. I find it more reliable than others (Pac-man, for example).

I must admit that I never used Jr's grab before, but with practice, I learned to condition my opponent to shield by pressuring with the help of my mecha, so I can land my grabs with relative ease.

With all that said, having a combo out of downthrow for example (changing the angle) would be fantastic. And buffing back throw (our only "kill throw").

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Bowser Jr sucks. He's a lot of fun to play and you can $W@G on baddies in a big way with him, but he's pretty garbage and doesn't excel in anything outside of low % combos and style points.

 

[DonutsKy]

Bowser Jr sucks. He's a lot of fun to play and you can $W@G on baddies in a big way with him, but he's pretty garbage and doesn't excel in anything outside of low % combos and style points.

He is viable if placed on the right hands. If you're predictable, yes, Bjr will get rekt.

Tweek recently placed top 3 in a tournament where people like Dabuz and M2K were also present.

Also, here's a video of Tweek winning a set against DK Will, probably the best DK in Smash 4 right now. I should also note that prior to this set, Tweek took M2K out. Yes, M2K. So I disagree with you on that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyz86RvTIEI

 

[Mr Moosebones]

He is viable if placed on the right hands. If you're predictable, yes, Bjr will get rekt.

Tweek recently placed top 3 in a tournament where people like Dabuz and M2K were also present.

Also, here's a video of Tweek winning a set against DK Will, probably the best DK in Smash 4 right now. I should also note that prior to this set, Tweek took M2K out. Yes, M2K. So I disagree with you on that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyz86RvTIEI

Try not to be condescending. You'll notice I was listed as one of the relevant bjr's earlier in the thread lol.

Here's the deal. Tweek is not only a substantially better player than m2k and Will, DK is probably BJr's easiest matchup. BJr is not a good character, Tweek is just a phenomenal player. If BJr was great Tweek wouldn't need to use Wario and others n tournament.

The whole "skilled Roy" argument doesn't hold much water.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

And if you want to test your theory of BJr being a good character you could always go a few rounds with my Olimar

 

[DonutsKy]

And if you want to test your theory of BJr being a good character you could always go a few rounds with my Olimar

Oh, by no means feel as if I'm telling you that you're incorrect. Yes, Bjr has many flaws, and has a handful of bad MUs, but my opinion is based on top-level competitive play and viability. If Bowser Jr was a non-viable character, no matter how good the player is, they wouldn't have the results Tweek has. Yes, Tweek is phenomenal, but he's also pushing the character's meta and proving that he's viable (meaning that Tweek doesn't win with Jr. just because he's a good player. Take Zero for example. Regarded by many as the best Sm4sh player. He struggled to beat a random Samus in For Glory with Bowser Jr).

Moreover, being viable and being a "good" character isn't necessarily the same thing. Maybe you took my words the wrong way. He is definitely not a top tier/high tier character, hence Tweek's need to have a secondary to cover Jr's bad MUs. I know I'm being redundant, but I remind you that I explicitly said that he's viable tournament-wise, given the right hands. Yes, even if its necessary to have a secondary character to cover up BowJow's bad MUs.

Oh, and yes, in paper, your Olimar would probably destroy my Bowser Jr.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Oh, by no means feel as if I'm telling you that you're incorrect. Yes, Bjr has many flaws, and has a handful of bad MUs, but my opinion is based on top-level competitive play and viability. If Bowser Jr was a non-viable character, no matter how good the player is, they wouldn't have the results Tweek has. Yes, Tweek is phenomenal, but he's also pushing the character's meta and proving that he's viable (meaning that Tweek doesn't win with Jr. just because he's a good player. Take Zero for example. Regarded by many as the best Sm4sh player. He struggled to beat a random Samus in For Glory with Bowser Jr).

Moreover, being viable and being a "good" character isn't necessarily the same thing. Maybe you took my words the wrong way. He is definitely not a top tier/high tier character, hence Tweek's need to have a secondary to cover Jr's bad MUs. I know I'm being redundant, but I remind you that I explicitly said that he's viable tournament-wise, given the right hands. Yes, even if its necessary to have a secondary character to cover up BowJow's bad MUs.

Oh, and yes, in paper, your Olimar would probably destroy my Bowser Jr.

I play in 2 brackets minimum a week. BJr is honestly only viable in tournament if you can rely on at least 1 of 2 things:

1) Lack of matchup experience on your opponent's part
2) Substantial skill gap between you and your opponent

No one in this game is at the level of melee Ness/Bowser/Kirby, but BJr's viability lies solely as a niche counterpick for a few characters where a high tier would probably do better anyway. No one plays BJr at a high/competent level because he's good, it's because he's fun to play. That in turn allows you to grind out his tech easily and without getting frustrated.

At the very best he's selectively viable. Probably C+ tier.


EDIT: as an aside. Fighting Samus on FD in a laggy environment with BJr is actually excruciating.

 

[aircaves]

If I may interject, a lot of characters in the tier list need a secondary to back them up if you are going below the top of the list, so that doesn't necessarily say bowser jr is bad in this case he's probably average. However, bowser jr. does have a lot more going for him then I think you give him credit for.

He is tied with samus for the 6th heaviest in the game and if you get hit in the cart area, which covers most of the character, bowser jr will live insanely long. He also has phenominal recovery adding to this, you just need to be careful about your head. On top of this, the koopa prince may not have a good grab which is admittedly really bad in smash 4, but he can combo into kill moves rather easily at later percents.

Yes he does have some really bad match ups, but most characters have bad match ups too. Plus bowser jr. does still have options against them so they aren't unwinnable match ups. What I think gets most people is his skill curve, it is deceptively high to the point where a lot of my best friends who are amazing at the game admit that he is really difficult to play (One of which plays peach who has a really high skill curve as well).

I'm not saying Bowser Jr. is an amazing character because he isn't the best, but what he is good at players can bring him farther. For me, I enjoy playing as Jr more than anyone else in the game and I've seen some really good success with him when I am newer to him competitively. He does have some pretty glaring flaws but has the potential to be amazing. Personally I would put him in B tier because he is extremely versatile in how you want to play him and he can really do well

 

[Mr Moosebones]

He is tied with samus for the 6th heaviest in the game and if you get hit in the cart area, which covers most of the character,

Kinda stopped reading here. His upper hit box is not only bigger than his lower one, they overlap and if both hitboxes are attacked at the same time, the upper one takes priority 100% of the time. This is not a good thing. It is a fundamental flaw in his design.

You guys are really trying to mansplain this character to the wrong guy.

EDIT: I really don't want to go into a point by point deconstruction of your post since I don't feel like it would change your opinion and you'd still disregard mine despite the fact that I helped build this character's meta.

I'm not saying any of this to be a jerk, just gotta realize smash isn't an anime. You can't just "believe" and have everything work out. This character's potential was cut off at the knees. Extremely high skill ceiling, but you could use that time and effort on a better character and do waaaay better. I've been playing this character since launch and helped a lot of people learn how to play him. He's just not good.

I'm still going to pull him out in bracket regardless though. Too much fun.

 

[Vult Redux]

BJr is not a good character, Tweek is just a phenomenal player.

SOMEONE SAID IT.

BJr is honestly only viable in tournament if you can rely on at least 1 of 2 things:

1) Lack of matchup experience on your opponent's part
2) Substantial skill gap between you and your opponent

And again!!! I'm not used to this much truth on these boards.

The saddest thing about this character is how overrated he is. People don't talk seriously about his major flaws because "eeeeh Tweek does okay". At least other bad characters are so poorly regarded that they are cool -- Jr doesn't even get that.

 

[xDizxy]

SOMEONE SAID IT.

And again!!! I'm not used to this much truth on these boards.

The saddest thing about this character is how overrated he is. People don't talk seriously about his major flaws because "eeeeh Tweek does okay". At least other bad characters are so poorly regarded that they are cool -- Jr doesn't even get that.

We do talk about his flaws. Like no throw combos or kill throws, crappy grabs etc. We were hoping he got at least one of those buffs but Sakurai yet again turns the attention to ike. If you think people are overatting bowser jr, just check out zelda/samus mains. Always saying their characters are underrated .

 

[pikazz]

everyone has their bad match up except for shiek, rosalina and ZSS.

I can accept that Jr do have his shortcomings but those shortcomings doesnt mean he is bad! it just mean some are better than him, but he is clearly better than many other in smash.
in a scale between 1 to 10 I would honestly put a 6½-7 on him, there 8 to 10 is high tier.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

You all keep talking like his shortcomings aren't "that bad." Maybe you have to play more tournament sets vs competent opponents who know the matchup to truly understand, but bjr's "flaws" are not that he has a "crappy grab" and "no throw combos," it's the following things in no particular order.

1) No safe shield pressure (but Moosebones, just space bair! herp derp! ***being predictable gets you killed in this game***)
2) One real, linear approach option when you're playing from behind
3) His recovery covers a huge distance and can be a good "get out of jail free" card, but it doesn't matter most of the time because the directly horizontal and vertical recovery paths he has, as well as no hitbox on the ascension of his up b (with the exception of the hammer input) mean he's incredibly easy to gimp. Any weak hit after using up b means you've lost a stock.

Did that Sonic go for a back air to try and stage spike you only to mess up the timing and hit the weak spot? Guess what? You lose a stock anyway.

Did Zelda try and dair spike you only to mess up the timing and HIT THE WEAK SPOT? GUESS WHAT? YOU LOSE A STOCK ANYWAY.

*never recover low vs Zelda. She has the easiest edgeguard in the game vs BJr after Rosalina.*

You have to recover high vs a lot of characters to avoid the inevitable soft hit gimps (and recovering high makes him extremely vulnerable in its own way). If bjr's recovery was actually good you wouldn't have to completely outplay your opponent just to get back to stage. Distance means nothing.

4) Loses extremely hard to anti aggression. Rosalina is a tough mu, but Olimar is absolutely horrendous. I'm sure I'm gonna get people going "but everyone has bad mus!" so I'll move on.

5) His lower hitbox weight is almost entirely negligible. Almost all good kill moves that kill off the top have large hitboxes (see, rosa's upair, mk's up b, zss boost kick + uair, dk's uair), meaning that if you're in range to get hit you're more often than not going to take the hit on the top half of your hitbox. The top hitbox extends substantially over his lower one, and if both hitboxes are hit in tandem, the top one takes priority. This makes him one of the lightest characters in the game in almost all vertical kill situations. To top this off, he's got a really big hitbox that's easy to juggle (which his lower hitbox actually helps facilitate at low %s). A 0.8x damage multiplier on the lower hitbox means almost nothing when the 1.15x damage multiplier nearly always takes precedence.

Anyone who is championing this mechanic as if it somehow helps bjr has never been dair'd by Yoshi or bthrown by Ness (yes, grabs and throws take the top hitbox only into consideration). 6th heaviest my ass.

6) BJr's kill confirms exist, but require your opponent to be reckless or just generally worse than you to pull off most of the time (see: outplaying your opponent). BJr's early % combos and juggles are incredible. He's easily got one of the best low % combo games in the entire meta (second only to mario/luigi imo), but it doesn't do a lot of good to be able to get your opponent to 60, 70, 80% quickly if you have no way to close out the stock. Almost all of bjr's non smash kill options (unreliable on their own) come out of side b combos (unless you want to wait until 170% to kill with ftilt/dtilt). This means that BJr suffers from Fox syndrome, where if your opponent shields at death% you're pretty much SOL. You have to go for a grab and try to force a bad situation (which most of the time will lead to nothing over and over) until things work out your way. Unlike fox though, a randy upsmash is way harder to pull off as bjr.


***

BJr isn't all bad though. He's got really good edgeguards and combos and he lets you be really creative and stylish. Ignoring all of the above is a really good way to go 0-2 in bracket though. Don't sleep on his weaknesses. Now that you know what they are, do your best to mitigate them. It'll be a long frustrating road to get to the point where these aren't huge issues in your play, but they'll always be issues regardless.

Good luck, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[pikazz]

pretty much everything I know, but yet I am staying positive and happy over the playstyle of Jr and how funny he is to play as in smash cause he is a character I just cant drop. I just love him too much

but just curious, on a scale between 1 to 10 (how would you rate your pain?) would you rate Jr as a smasher? and be reasonable and dont let either hate/love take over

 

[xDizxy]

everyone has their bad match up except for shiek, rosalina and ZSS.

I can accept that Jr do have his shortcomings but those shortcomings doesnt mean he is bad! it just mean some are better than him, but he is clearly better than many other in smash.
in a scale between 1 to 10 I would honestly put a 6½-7 on him, there 8 to 10 is high tier.

So close. If only Sakurai would gave actual good buffs instead of pointless buffs on his cannon moves. I just want a less laggy grab and kill throw. How hard is that Sakurai?

 

[Mr Moosebones]

pretty much everything I know, but yet I am staying positive and happy over the playstyle of Jr and how funny he is to play as in smash cause he is a character I just cant drop. I just love him too much

but just curious, on a scale between 1 to 10 (how would you rate your pain?) would you rate Jr as a smasher? and be reasonable and dont let either hate/love take over

Probably a 6? If the worst character in the game is a 5. Let's be real here, no one in this game is completely useless- but that doesn't mean they're viable.

Also yeah. I love playing him. He's not good, I'm not sitting here thinking he's still got hidden potential (he doesn't; he's been explored to death already to be honest), but I'm probably not going to stop playing him.

So close. If only Sakurai would gave actual good buffs instead of pointless buffs on his cannon moves. I just want a less laggy grab and kill throw. How hard is that Sakurai?

backthrow kills most of the cast around 120-150%. He's got a better kill throw than 75% of the cast, it's just not something you should be fishing for.

 

[xDizxy]

backthrow kills most of the cast around 120-150%. He's got a better kill throw than 75% of the cast, it's just not something you should be fishing for.

Ness back throw kills like at 30% lol. It's also hard to get a grab when his grab is laggy. All I'm asking is for 1 good buff that's all.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Ness back throw kills like at 30% lol. It's also hard to get a grab when his grab is laggy. All I'm asking is for 1 good buff that's all.

lel

A grab buff wouldn't stop you from losing with the character

He's fundamentally broken from an architectural standpoint, buffing grab won't really make him any better.

 

[pikazz]

I see "3-4" as the lowest. Mii Fighter sword would be 4 in my opinion and samus 4½ due her broken hitboxes and non killmoves

what I see is that if Jr had a reliable kill move or a setup for kills, he would be so much better due you can kill more easy!
example would be buff his back throw even more so it kills at like 90% making shields less effective

or make Down Throw a Setup so example DThrow to USmash/UpB a true combo

something awesome that would be excellent for Jr is that he could shield cancel his SideB! meaning you can enter shield->grab on the go