Why is Smash not taken as seriously?

[Djent]

rather, it deserves negative PR for trying to punish players for splitting rather than getting better so players can't rely on splitting.

I vehemently disagree on the splitting issue, but at least we can agree about the PR.

how on earth could you say we are accepting of splitting when two players got carded for splitting and ultimately caused a grand total of 9$ difference between winnings... there was a thread about it on SRK and everyone continued to hate on the smash community for it. a vast majority of them only do it because it's popular to pick on the smash community. very few actually have been with the smash community or even tried playing the game beyond a casual level.

We may "punish" them, but people keep doing it, so it's obvious that there's a large portion of the community that accepts it (regardless of what the "authorities" say). As far as the SRK posters, most of them are ignorant, but ignorance is nothing new on the internet - so don't take it so harshly. And not all of them are ignorant - I know Keits was a competitor in ISP, and I believe he was also involved in play-testing for the EVO ruleset. You're also not accounting for the commentors that did or do play Smash - I know I recognized quite a few names from these boards.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

or a better idea would be to instead of ignoring the problem try and find a way to fix things.

 

[Steam]

I vehemently disagree on the splitting issue, but at least we can agree about the PR.



We may "punish" them, but people keep doing it, so it's obvious that there's a large portion of the community that accepts it (regardless of what the "authorities" say). As far as the SRK posters, most of them are ignorant, but ignorance is nothing new on the internet - so don't take it so harshly. And not all of them are ignorant - I know Keits was a competitor in ISP, and I believe he was also involved in play-testing for the EVO ruleset. You're also not accounting for the commentors that did or do play Smash - I know I recognized quite a few names from these boards.

it happens in every community sadly. but people are doing it a lot less in this one. as two cards or a red card means you're banned from any tourney running the unity ruleset for a set period of time. It's probably still happening. it's just a lot more under the table now. and people will stop using random characters in grand finals, ruining the hype.

 

[Djent]

it happens in every community sadly. but people are doing it a lot less in this one. as two cards or a red card means you're banned from any tourney running the unity ruleset for a set period of time. It's probably still happening. it's just a lot more under the table now. and people will stop using random characters in grand finals, ruining the hype.

Oh I agree, it's definitely diminished the amount of splitting, which IMO is good. But I don't really expect that these most recent cards are the last the BBR-RC will be handing out. As much as it kills me to admit it, this community has a history of making similar mistakes again. So I wouldn't be surprised if someone new gets carded a few months from now.

I actually think it sucks is that weneed rules like this in the first place. But some of our top players only value their wins for the money they bring, which is unfortunate. They treat Smash like a business, so it's no surprise that the payouts have changed to reflect this model.

 

[Steam]

nah, it's just with all the worship they get for being a top player, they also develop a sense of entitlement... :/

 

[Jaguarandine]

Wait, I'm lost. What's splitting? And what's the backstory on this?

 

[JOE!]

Splitting is essentially this:

two people make it to the grand finals, and know they each will be receiving $$$ for being # 1 and #2 of the tourney. So to guarantee money, instead of "gambling" over who gets the higher % of winnings, they agree to pool the money and split 50/50, which takes a ton of the edge from the competition.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

But some of our top players only value their wins for the money they bring, which is unfortunate. They treat Smash like a business, so it's no surprise that the payouts have changed to reflect this model.

Gee, I wonder how that mentality developed.

 

[Jonas]

You think MK is the only reason they're not having fun with the game?

 

[SmashChu]

We may "punish" them, but people keep doing it, so it's obvious that there's a large portion of the community that accepts it (regardless of what the "authorities" say). As far as the SRK posters, most of them are ignorant, but ignorance is nothing new on the internet - so don't take it so harshly. And not all of them are ignorant - I know Keits was a competitor in ISP, and I believe he was also involved in play-testing for the EVO ruleset. You're also not accounting for the commentors that did or do play Smash - I know I recognized quite a few names from these boards.

Uhh, huh. Most of them know Smash Brothers better than people do here.

it happens in every community sadly. but people are doing it a lot less in this one. as two cards or a red card means you're banned from any tourney running the unity ruleset for a set period of time. It's probably still happening. it's just a lot more under the table now. and people will stop using random characters in grand finals, ruining the hype.

It certainly does not. Starcraft doesn't have splitting. Others games don't either. Splitting is bad and is a Smash Brothers problem.

I do think that we should make harder punishment for splitting. Although ADHD and M2K did get disciplined for MLG, I almost think they should receive the hashes punishment: being removed from Smash Brothers indefinably. They got Smash kicked out of it's bread and butter tournament.

 

[Mr.C]

Splitting has been around forever, you have to realize most of the people who consistently win tournaments are usually friends, so splitting the money just makes sense. It shouldn't have an effect on game play and should be done in private but I don't see how it's a problem, especially for people that aren't even involved in the prize money.

Of course I'm talking about community ran tournaments, sponsored tournaments are a little different but seriously, split the money in private and there will be no problems.

 

[Djent]

Uhh, huh. Most of them know Smash Brothers than people do here.

1) You obviously stopped reading at the bolded portion.
2) That isn't even a sentence anyway.

 

[SmashChu]

Splitting has been around forever, you have to realize most of the people who consistently win tournaments are usually friends, so splitting the money just makes sense. It shouldn't have an effect on game play and should be done in private but I don't see how it's a problem, especially for people that aren't even involved in the prize money.

Of course I'm talking about community ran tournaments, sponsored tournaments are a little different but seriously, split the money in private and there will be no problems.

It is a problem. Here is an explination

When matches are split it results in much lower level performances and worse matches on the whole. It is unfair to the people spectating and a slap to the face of the league which has set up a stage for you to perform and sends you paychecks for those performances. The Smash community practically begged for 2 years for Smash to be put back on the MLG circuit and this is apparently how things have been going down.

Every time I played on stream for MLG, in the back of my mind I felt that one of my responsibilities as a player was to entertain the people who were watching at the venue as well as online. This is the reason MLG pays pro players stipends to get to events. They want the top players to be there playing to increase exposure and viewer counts by presenting entertaining, top-level matches. This isn’t just what MLG wants, it is what the community wants as well.

Regardless of what facts surface regarding the incident, the fact that the Smash community seems to find it OK that pro players are splitting prize money at tournaments is disgusting to me. That community should be pissed at this scenario. They should demanding change and explanations. The players involved should be apologizing to MLG, the community, and their sponsors instead of disputing that splitting isn’t the same as throwing a match.

Source

Bolded the important parts. If Smash is to ever succeed and play with the big dogs, this has to stop. I still stand by my stance that M2K and ADHD should never be allowed at any tournaments ever. They literally killed the community's chances at anything.

 

[Mr.C]

It is a problem. Here is an explination


Source

Bolded the important parts. If Smash is to ever succeed and play with the big dogs, this has to stop. I still stand by my stance that M2K and ADHD should never be allowed at any tournaments ever. They literally killed the community's chances at anything.

Splitting does not affect game play unless you allow it to, using one example that only involves two players doesn't really do anything. Every single tournament I've been to has had crew mates and friends splitting the 1-3 place prizes. EVERY SINGLE TOURNAMENT, I've been to MLG, Moast3, dozens of other tournaments, dozens of other major tournaments and every single one has had people splitting, it's just a part of the community since people are so close with one another.

These aren't just random people coming to a tournament and playing, these are friends that have known each other for YEARS, splitting the pot just makes sense in that type of scenario.

Like I said, you split your money in private, because it's your money, you play like you're suppose to play, you play to win, if you split your money afterwards that's your own business.

If they weren't caught, people wouldn't even be talking about this because it would look like a normal match; because it was a normal match and the only reason why people think otherwise is because they shared their money and MLG made a big deal about it.

Did people make a big deal about Ken/Isai splitting for 5-6 years? Nope. Did people make a big deal about ANY state with crew members placing top 3 (Texas, NY, Florida, Cali, pretty any of the best states) nope.

I'm positive every single community with close friends split there prize money, the only difference is they weren't caught and punished by MLG.

---

It's so funny they call it match fixing because that's not what it is, that's like calling an 18 year old high school senior having sex with a 16 year old high school junior a pedophile, ****'s ridiculous.

He even explains they played the matches out, but if he honestly paid M2K to forfeit than that's a completely different story.

 

[Steam]

Uhh, huh. Most of them know Smash Brothers better than people do here.

.... okay you're trolling right?

and splitting happens in SF/Marvel pretty commonly from what I've seen. but they aren't absolute ******* about it usually though and don't make it public/sandbag like hell, so it doesn't matter. I will say I hate the sense of entitlement from a lot of top smash players

 

[SmashChu]

Splitting does not affect game play unless you allow it to, using one example that only involves two players doesn't really do anything. Every single tournament I've been to has had crew mates and friends splitting the 1-3 place prizes. EVERY SINGLE TOURNAMENT, I've been to MLG, Moast3, dozens of other tournaments, dozens of other major tournaments and every single one has had people splitting, it's just a part of the community since people are so close with one another.

These aren't just random people coming to a tournament and playing, these are friends that have known each other for YEARS, splitting the pot just makes sense in that type of scenario.

Like I said, you split your money in private, because it's your money, you play like you're suppose to play, you play to win, if you split your money afterwards that's your own business.

If they weren't caught, people wouldn't even be talking about this because it would look like a normal match; because it was a normal match and the only reason why people think otherwise is because they shared their money and MLG made a big deal about it.

Did people make a big deal about Ken/Isai splitting for 5-6 years? Nope. Did people make a big deal about ANY state with crew members placing top 3 (Texas, NY, Florida, Cali, pretty any of the best states) nope.

I'm positive every single community with close friends split there prize money, the only difference is they weren't caught and punished by MLG.

---

It's so funny they call it match fixing because that's not what it is, that's like calling an 18 year old high school senior having sex with a 16 year old high school junior a pedophile, ****'s ridiculous.

He even explains they played the matches out, but if he honestly paid M2K to forfeit than that's a completely different story.

Are you ********? No really. There is no way you could logically think that splitting winnings does not effects performance. Sure, maybe someone buys drinks, but not when you are actively splitting winnings. If you are going to throw a match in the finals just because you and your buddy decide to share the winnings than you wont play your best and will have a crappy match. Because who cares, your still getting cash at the end of the day. These little deals hurt the game.

"OH, but they are friends." Yeah, that doesn't make it OK. Guess what, other E-sports have members of the same clan fight each other. Hell, Boxer and MMA of Slayers had to fight each other at MLG. Guess what, they played like champs and did not split the winnings. They earned what they got. And it was an intense match. When you are in a competitive game, you run the risk of fighting a friend. If you are a football player and have a friend on another team, you will play them eventually. That's how it is.

What is funny is everyone else says it's wrong and ruins the game, except for competitive Smash players. This is why the community is dying.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

There is a difference between splitting winnings and intentional forfeiting/sand-bagging.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the act of splitting, only a fool would say otherwise.

 

[Steam]

Are you ********. No really. There is no way you could logically think that splitting winnings effects performance. Sure, maybe someone buys drinks, but not when you are actively splitting winnings. If you are going to throw a match in the finals just because you and your buddy decide to share the winnings than you wont play your best and will have a crappy match. Because who cares, your still getting cash at the end of the day. These little deals hurt the game.

"OH, but they are friends." Yeah, that doesn't make it OK. Guess what, other E-sports have members of the same clan fight each other. Hell, Boxer and MMA of Slayers had to fight each other at MLG. Guess what, they played like champs and did not split the winnings. They earned what they got. And it was an intense match. When you are in a competitive game, you run the risk of fighting a friend. If you are a football player and have a friend on another team, you will play them eventually. That's how it is.

What is funny is everyone else says it's wrong and ruins the game, except for competitive Smash players. This is why the community is dying.

you say splitting doesn't effect performance... then say it's why the community is dying. I'm confused. I don't even knkow what you're trying to say.

 

[Mr.C]

Are you ********. No really. There is no way you could logically think that splitting winnings effects performance. Sure, maybe someone buys drinks, but not when you are actively splitting winnings. If you are going to throw a match in the finals just because you and your buddy decide to share the winnings than you wont play your best and will have a crappy match. Because who cares, your still getting cash at the end of the day. These little deals hurt the game.

You're ********.

No, just because you know you're getting money guaranteed doesn't mean you're all of a sudden going to play like garbage, just like if you aren't splitting money, you aren't all of a sudden going to play like a God. The world doesn't work like that. Actually, one could argue playing with the assurance that you're going to get money would actually make you play better since you won't have any pressure of losing.

Like I said, splitting money doesn't affect game play unless you allow it to. There's a huge difference from sharing your prize money with a friend and actually sand-bagging a match. Especially when they are two players with similar skill.

"OH, but they are friends." Yeah, that doesn't make it OK. Guess what, other E-sports have members of the same clan fight each other. Hell, Boxer and MMA of Slayers had to fight each other at MLG. Guess what, they played like champs and did not split the winnings. They earned what they got. And it was an intense match. When you are in a competitive game, you run the risk of fighting a friend. If you are a football player and have a friend on another team, you will play them eventually. That's how it is.

What is funny is everyone else says it's wrong and ruins the game, except for competitive Smash players. This is why the community is dying.

This has nothing to do with friends playing each other it has to do with friends playing each other in the finals. There is no risk when you're already placing top 3, if you run into a friend during the bracket then of course you're going to play to advance, when both of you are going to win money anyways it doesn't really matter.

How can you say the community is dying lol? Even if it was it's not dying because of splitting prize money it's dying because Brawl is a terrible competitive game.

There is a difference between splitting winnings and intentional forfeiting/sand-bagging.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the act of splitting, only a fool would say otherwise.

This is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Huge difference from splitting money and sand-bagging.

Like I said earlier, you play to win, after the game if you want to pool the prize money and split it, do it in private and there will be no problems.

 

[Steam]

the division of the community is a big part of why it's dying. terrible is your opinion.

 

[Mr.C]

the division of the community is a big part of why it's dying. terrible is your opinion.

Or maybe because the tournament standard game in the series is Brawl and the majority of the people who really enjoy playing it are people that don't actually play competitively?

Most of the professional Brawl players only play in tournaments because they win money not because they think the game is good.

A little food for thought.

 

[Steam]

Or maybe because the tournament standard game in the series is Brawl and the majority of the people who really enjoy playing it are people that don't actually play competitively?

Most of the professional Brawl players only play in tournaments because they win money not because they think the game is good.

A little food for thought.

It's M2K that says that... haven't heard it from any other brawl player.

besides, only the top few make money. most players place out of the money. and no brawl tournies are just filled with casuals...

 

[Mr.C]

It's M2K that says that... haven't heard it from any other brawl player.

besides, only the top few make money. most players place out of the money. and no brawl tournies are just filled with casuals...

Of course, all I'm saying is the "division" of the community has nothing to do with the scene dying down.

A game that has incredible death will last for decades.
A game that has no depth will only last a couple years.

In my opinion the main reason why the competitive scene is dying down is directly related to Brawl being the tournament standard (strictly because it's the newest game).

Competitive players are losing their competitive drive because Brawl isn't a very competitive game compared to it's predecessor. Really, it was bound to happen.

 

[Steam]

Of course, all I'm saying is the "division" of the community has nothing to do with the scene dying down.

A game that has incredible death will last for decades.
A game that has no depth will only last a couple years.

In my opinion the main reason why the competitive scene is dying down is directly related to Brawl being the tournament standard (strictly because it's the newest game).

Competitive players are losing their competitive drive because Brawl isn't a very competitive game compared to it's predecessor. Really, it was bound to happen.

I honestly feel a big part of this is MK and what the optimal strategy has become... I feel that with MK gone the game won't be nearly as conservative and people will start to come back to it. the game can actually be fun when people aren't camping their balls off.

and the division has plenty to do with it. sure brawl sucks, but if melee is also right there at the same tourney people could get into melee instead, or both. being so divided makes people choose, or limits their overall opportunities. I think it would benefit both scenes if they worked together.

 

[rageagainst]

I agree, the only explanation that I can think of is simply because the "fighting" community takes it as a joke, like character designs, different mechanics, and not to mention traditional enough.

I myself am involved to a competative level in the fighting community, I don't think that smash is bad, but others just don't consider it "hardcore" enough and then see a character such as Yoshi which draws them away and therefore don't take it seriously.

its taken as a joke b/c of brawl, which doesn't have that much competitive depth. Especially compared to its predecessor. If you flame at this, this should also make you angry: There are 12 inches in a foot. g is approximately 9.8 m/s^2

 

[Steam]

its taken as a joke b/c of brawl, which doesn't have that much competitive depth. Especially compared to its predecessor. If you flame at this, this should also make you angry: There are 12 inches in a foot. g is approximately 9.8 m/s^2

pretty much this. though they definitely don't give brawl nearly enough credit.

 

[RaqTasmeneth]

I can only see mellee not getting as much as it should because Nintendo's age group caters toward a younger audience on average.

As for Brawl? Sakurai needs to step out on this one and vouch for me. Because topping the list is
Oh, and the killer! TRIPPING! LOLOL.

 

[Strong Badam]

while the M2K example is brought up quite often, DEHF also enjoys Melee more than Brawl. but I digress; Melee vs. Brawl isn't the issue here.

Grim Tuesday pretty much said what's up. Sandbagging and forfeiting isn't cool, but splitting is fine. "smash" as you call it (even though you refer to Brawl) isn't taken as seriously because it isn't as good a game, the community isn't as large, and we aren't sponsored by MLG or EVO anymore. capcom caters their games toward the competitive side because they know that casuals will mash and go crazy over good graphics and a lot of characters regardless of the amount of competitive depth. on the other hand, nitnendo spit in the face of competitive smashers with Brawl. 10 frame buffer window. random tripping. tripping on moves with trajectory 181-359 below the tumble threshold (31 frames of hitstun). no trajectory DI allowed on attacks with hitstun below 31 frames. chaingrabs that work regardless of percent. infinites. lack of movement options. 10 frame powershield window & bufferable powershields. low shieldstun. high hitlag. /terrible/ DI coding in general (DI can affect moves anywhere between 18 and 24 degrees rather than just 18 all around depending on trajectory).
don't even try.

da facts

 

[Steam]

yeah pretty much. I'm sure casuals didn't care for melee though.

hopefully nintendo finds a healthy balance or something >.>

damn tripping though... EVERYONE hates it...

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah pretty much. I'm sure casuals didn't care for melee though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#Nintendo_GameCube

yeah, those 7 million people were all competitive players.

 

[Steam]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games#Nintendo_GameCube

yeah, those 7 million people were all competitive players.

at least compared to brawl... besides. brawl outsold melee.

most casual players like brawl because they find it more accessible.

 

[JoFTWin]

the division of the community is a big part of why it's dying. terrible is your opinion.

agreed. Once people realize this and start trying to change that, then we'll be back on track.

 

[Jonas]

at least compared to brawl... besides. brawl outsold melee.

A totally unfair comparison because GC had an install base of 20-30 million compared to Wii's 80 million. Keep in mind that these 80 million costumers were mostly motivated to buy the console because of games like Wii Sports, Wii Fit, New Super Mario Bros. and Mario Kart Wii, all of which have outperformed Brawl by a large margin; people just didn't buy the Wii just so they could play Brawl.

most casual players like brawl because they find it more accessible.

Sure, playing Brawl first and then going back to Melee makes the game seem less accessible (controls feel stiffer, you die more easily etc.), but when Melee was first released, it was as accessible as fighting games get. Nobody complained about the game being too hard, because most people considered it an easy-to-pick-up-and-play party game.

 

[Strong Badam]

brawl has like 3 million more sales than melee. series loyalty + the much higher success of the wii counts for more than enough to get that.

don't bring up weak arguments, we've seen it all before. more accessible my ***.

 

[Raidex]

Because it's Nintendo, and Nintendo is mostly based on party games for kids. While other Fighting games aren't. That's what I think, though if I was in the Street Fighter or the Marvel vs Capcom community, I wouldn't trash it because it's Nintendo. They're all Fighting games, just stfu and enjoy them!

 

[Steam]

sales is a **** argument as to why melee is a better competitive game anyways.

@Jonas- well I for one only got the wii for brawl, because everything else is either ****, a gimmick, both, or just not my cup of tea.

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah now you say they don't matter. just a bit ago you were saying that Brawl was more accessible and had more sales. LOL flip floppin all around

 

[Steam]

yeah now you say they don't matter. just a bit ago you were saying that Brawl was more accessible and had more sales. LOL flip floppin all around

you were the one who brought up sales. I still stand by the fact that it's more accessible to new players compared to melee. because well... it is. that buffer really helps newbies.

 

[Strong Badam]

it's not like brawl would be hard without the buffer. buffer was mostly cuz of WiFi to make it not as awful.

 

[Steam]

it's not like brawl would be hard without the buffer. buffer was mostly cuz of WiFi to make it not as awful.

okay so you're agreeing with me that brawl is more accessible. I don't see what all the arguing was about.