Why is it hard for Duck Hunt to kill?

[Octagon]

I've mained with Duck Hunt since the launch of the 3ds version and I've played hundreds of matches with him as well. I have mastered all of his attacks and tricks but what I still cant figure out is why Duck Hunt cant kill very well. I usually have to get my opponent to very high percents before I can kill them. I have also heard commentators call out Duck Hunt in this way. Does anyone know why?

 

[Shady Penguin]

The main reason is that his smash attacks are unreliable. A lot of times they won't reach the last shot with the knockback even if the first shot hits perfectly fine.

Other than that, he was definitely designed to be a weak-hitting character on purpose since his specialty is racking up damage and keeping opponents zoned out.

 

[Arcadenik]

The main reason is that his smash attacks are unreliable. A lot of times they won't reach the last shot with the knockback even if the first shot hits perfectly fine.

Other than that, he was definitely designed to be a weak-hitting character on purpose since his specialty is racking up damage and keeping opponents zoned out.

If Duck Hunt is designed to be a zoning character, why are their projectiles so slow? It doesn't help that clay pigeons are slow and predictable. I wish you could throw clay pigeons up and down just like how you can throw Link's boomerang up and down.

If Duck Hunt was designed to rack up damage, the duck needs to peck repeatedly more often than just peck once. Aerial up is the only move besides the jab (A+A+A) where the duck pecks multiple times. I wanted the duck to be able to do the Rat-a-tat Rap move like Kazooie does in Banjo-Kazooie games.

The smash moves are fine but I wish that the shots are more refined. The down smash could have the two shots send the opponent flying back and forth around the dog before the third shot launched the opponent away from the dog. The forward smash could have the first two shots racking up damage to the opponent without knockback while the third shot launches the opponent away from the dog. The up smash could have all three shots launching opponents straight upward.

Also, the shots of the forward smash move could be meteor smashes if they connected with the airborne opponent... making it useful for edge guarding. I mean, the shots made the ducks fall straight down in the NES game.

 

[DunnoBro]

I believe the design direction was to make him reliant on stringing the moves of the three different characters together, to actually make the player feel like they're controlling more than one character. Note how most of our combos do not use the same character twice in a row.

Ex.
Throw combos go from Dog > Duck/Shooter (Can) And DHD's quick, straightforward, and horizontal knockback moves with disjoint quite obviously indicate they were designed to interact with the shooter.

Clay shooter, especially delayed clay shooter and Trick Shot go Shooter > Duck/Dog
And even when these two somehow both hit the opponent for a combo, they don't do the full damage due to the can destroying the clay shot.

But for actual gameplay reasons, it isn't just that his smashes are bad. It is in addition to that, he has overall fairly average kill power and no super reliable kill set-ups or rushdown ability.

He's rather similar to brawl falco. Who racked on damage extremely easy with lasers, chain grabs/grab follow-ups, and a quick, high priority moveset. But when the game was in neutral, he had to utilize foresight to get the opponent in a position he could kill them, since it wasn't very likely in the neutral or by continuing the same strategy used early in the match to rack on damage.

 

[crashbfan]

DHD "not being able to kill" is a big misconception... I'd say he's just "average" at it, which is what prevents him from ever being a TOP tier. he simply cant kill with ground moves until very high percents, so you have to use air moves. A few scenarios I use to get kills:

1. Throw a can at someone trying to land. If they airdodge, punish it with a uair. If they don't airdodge, then you get to repeat this until something happens.

2. When someone's trying to recover to the stage low/horizontally I drop a gunman off the ledge which causes them to sometimes get flustered, then you can spike them with dair. If you're lucky the gunman will actually shoot them and you can combo that into a dair aswell.

3. A lot of people don't know utilt is a kill move, even though it's range sucks.

4. Gimping with the can and other projectiles.... this speaks for itself and most DHD's already do this.

Even though I haven't been playing DHD lately that's what I suggest to you for killing.. and I believe DHD will have more tech in the future that will improve his ability to kill, he has a lot of potential that we haven't seen yet. All it takes is one dedicated main to take DHD to a tournament and turn some heads.

 

[Octagon]

The main reason is that his smash attacks are unreliable. A lot of times they won't reach the last shot with the knockback even if the first shot hits perfectly fine.

Other than that, he was definitely designed to be a weak-hitting character on purpose since his specialty is racking up damage and keeping opponents zoned out.

omg this is so true. So many times I do a smash attack and the opponent is right in front of me but they are at the perfect place to not get hit by the smash attack. Looks like I got to master that as well

 

[outfoxd]

I've been going for so many meteor smashes, I'm pretty sure the Dog's name is actually Spike.

Seriously though, I've been upping my KO count looking for meteors at every opportunity. Can on the ledge either scares people into a direction i want, or gives me a second chance if I miss.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I think as DHD you really shouldn't worry about getting the kill, you should worry more about never letting your opponent get near you. Who needs killing if you never get killed yourself in the first place? As long as you keep throwing out projectiles at them and zoning them out, your stuff will kill them eventually. Of course, this makes rage your biggest enemy, but I honestly think its the way DHD was meant to be played at a higher level. Spend too much time trying to look for the kill and you'll leave yourself open because of that.

 

[outfoxd]

I don't like giving people more chances. Might be an inherent flaw in my mindset. Also I got eaten by a Lucario so that might have something to do with it.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I don't like giving people more chances. Might be an inherent flaw in my mindset. Also I got eaten by a Lucario so that might have something to do with it.

Characters that benefit from rage such as Bowser and Lucario are going to give DHD a very hard time due to the fact that they probably have to put in 100% less to get the kill than you do.

 

[outfoxd]

Oh, when that got Lucario got to his money percentage he 2-stocked me, between Rage and Aura. All he needed was a good read.. It was ugly. Because of him my DHD game has really been focused on ending stocks early, to get respect and to try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

 

[salaboB]

One thing I've been working on is using up smash and the tip of forward smash more when trying for kills -- not worrying as much about catching people in the initial hits, but just getting the bigger last hit. Even if it's not as effective as when all the hits land, it still works better than a lot of options.

Trying to be unpredictable with this so I don't leave myself open to easy punishment is my current project.

 

[Funkermonster]

I think as DHD you really shouldn't worry about getting the kill, you should worry more about never letting your opponent get near you. Who needs killing if you never get killed yourself in the first place? As long as you keep throwing out projectiles at them and zoning them out, your stuff will kill them eventually. Of course, this makes rage your biggest enemy, but I honestly think its the way DHD was meant to be played at a higher level. Spend too much time trying to look for the kill and you'll leave yourself open because of that.

I heavily disagree that your main objective should be zoning your opponent out and that its the way DHD is meant to be played at a higher level. Even though a lot of people label him as a spacing character, Duck Hunt's zoning options are really not that great because his projectiles are very slow and awkward, its not hard for a character with good mobility to bypass them and get to him just fine, and fellow projectile users like Samus are better at zoning than he is and pretty much force him to approach. Unless it's a character with terrible approach options and really hates projectiles in general like Ganondorf or Luigi, Duck Hunt as a long range zoner doesn't really work right and you wouldn't get a lot of mileage out of doing it.

1. The can is slow and can be deflected with disjonted hitboxes or another projectile. Not the end of the world if it happens, but it stops you from zoning with it nonetheless
2. Clay Pigeons are also slow to travel with quite some endlag, and can be destroyed from opposing attacks. Not the best zoning tool either.
3. The Gunmen WOULD be a good zoning tool thanks to their transcendent priority, but their hitbox doesn't come out instantly and they can be killed by your enemies and if they die, you have to wait a few more seconds before summoning another one.

That said, I find Duck Hunt to function better as a Pressure character, using his projectiles to bait reactions, mixups, exploit openings, and approaching people himself. Jumping with a can being shot, shorthopping with Gunmen and clay pigeons, and baiting shields are all great ways to annoy people with Duck Hunt; and its good to use general mobility while playing him instead of remaining stagnant while shooting them. For that reason, I personally find Duck Hunt better played offensively than defensively, and he's more in the vein of other projectile characters like Ken from Street Fighter where he likes to use his projectiles for approaching himself and forcing reactions rather than just keeping people out.

He's still technically forced to go in eventually so he can get that pressure, and his kill options generally still suck: His projectiles cannot kill very early at all, smash attacks are laggy and don't link reliably, none of his throws have kill power, and Bair and Dair aerials are decent at best. Duck Hunt's zoning is okayish, but it's not really good enough to become the core of his gameplan (well except against heavies or anyone who can't approach), and anyone who thinks otherwise wouldn't really end up a good player with him to my eyes.

It's the same with and : a lot of people think Mac's high speed and attack power forge him into a rushdown character and Lucina's consistent blade enables her to play more aggressively than her counterpart without as much of a need for spacing, while in reality, they don't.

 

[outfoxd]

I can dig that. That's how I usually play, using my projectiles to frustrate and corral opponents. I'm not good at reading, but I'm a whole lot better when I'm limiting what the other guy actually can do. Like a boxer cutting off the ring with footwork. The projectiles set the table; when dinners ready we can feed em a smash or a spike or a uair.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Throughout my times using Duck Hunt, I can pretty much say that the duo can KO things, but relying on their smash attacks is not the answer. All of Duck Hunt's smash attacks have different hitboxes, so trying to get the hitbox that delivers the most knockback can be a chore. Also, fighters can actually grab Duck Hunt to stop the smash attacks in their tracks.

Fortunately, u-tilt, n-air, and u-air each have KO potential. It's just that Duck Hunt's main challenge is that the duo is quite technical with their attack options, and the duo's projectile games can be shut down if the opponent plays smart. This is especially notable against Rosalina, who can Gravitational Pull all of Duck Hunt's projectile attacks, except Wild Gunman.

 

[jayeldeee]

That said, I find Duck Hunt to function better as a Pressure character, using his projectiles to bait reactions, mixups, exploit openings, and approaching people himself. Jumping with a can being shot, shorthopping with Gunmen and clay pigeons, and baiting shields are all great ways to annoy people with Duck Hunt; and its good to use general mobility while playing him instead of remaining stagnant while shooting them. For that reason, I personally find Duck Hunt better played offensively than defensively, and he's more in the vein of other projectile characters like Ken from Street Fighter where he likes to use his projectiles for approaching himself and forcing reactions rather than just keeping people out.

Ahhh, so I have been playing with him effectively. it's nice to know that this is a great option because it's exactly what I've been trying to learn.

 

[Arcadenik]

I think as DHD you really shouldn't worry about getting the kill, you should worry more about never letting your opponent get near you. Who needs killing if you never get killed yourself in the first place? As long as you keep throwing out projectiles at them and zoning them out, your stuff will kill them eventually. Of course, this makes rage your biggest enemy, but I honestly think its the way DHD was meant to be played at a higher level. Spend too much time trying to look for the kill and you'll leave yourself open because of that.

Rage? Biggest enemy?

This kinda makes sense when you think about it...

 

[dahuterschuter]

Does he have trouble killing? I find him very powerful in general even without the projectiles.

 

[Arcadenik]

I wish the clay pigeons would meteor smash the opponents straight down on the third shot. I mean, when you shot the ducks in the NES game, they fell straight down...

 

[crashbfan]

I wish the clay pigeons would meteor smash the opponents straight down on the third shot. I mean, when you shot the ducks in the NES game, they fell straight down...

how about making the can spike them instead?

 

[Small Waves]

Unreliable smash attacks, can doesn't kill offstage until almost 200%, Down-B is absolutely not an option for KOing, up air can be wonky like most multihit up airs, a slow, predictable down air that has hilariously pitiful knockback so it takes much higher percentages to reliably spike.

Granted, when his smashes do connect, they are quite nasty, and there's always back air, but DH is as everyone else said already: a gimping character whose job is to not get hit and build up a stream of damage while confronting as little as possible. As long as you don't take too much damage, don't stress over that people are going to live as late as 180%, and that's fine unless you're letting them trade damage with you.

 

[outfoxd]

Unreliable smash attacks, can doesn't kill offstage until almost 200%, Down-B is absolutely not an option for KOing, up air can be wonky like most multihit up airs, a slow, predictable down air that has hilariously pitiful knockback so it takes much higher percentages to reliably spike.

Granted, when his smashes do connect, they are quite nasty, and there's always back air, but DH is as everyone else said already: a gimping character whose job is to not get hit and build up a stream of damage while confronting as little as possible. As long as you don't take too much damage, don't stress over that people are going to live as late as 180%, and that's fine unless you're letting them trade damage with you.

I dunno, piggybacking a suicide bomber to a hail Mary up air is always a good time.

 

[Arcadenik]

I just want DHD to be buffed in SSB5. He needs reliable kill moves. I love his moveset but they lack the power to kill opponents effectively at 100%. I mean, it seems like DHD is the only character in the game who cannot kill opponents around 100% unless the opponent made a mistake or wasn't paying attention.

 

[crashbfan]

I just want DHD to be buffed in SSB5. He needs reliable kill moves. I love his moveset but they lack the power to kill opponents effectively at 100%. I mean, it seems like DHD is the only character in the game who cannot kill opponents around 100% unless the opponent made a mistake or wasn't paying attention.

it's because DHD's tools are all based around making the opponent do something unsafe so you can punish it with a kill move. face it, if DHD had something like a kill throw, or a move that killed starting at 90% he would be too overpowered. I strongly believe DHD is a high tier right now even without the need for braindead kill moves. the fact that DHD does massive damage is balanced out with the fact his kill moves take skill and setups to land.

 

[outfoxd]

it's because DHD's tools are all based around making the opponent do something unsafe so you can punish it with a kill move. face it, if DHD had something like a kill throw, or a move that killed starting at 90% he would be too overpowered. I strongly believe DHD is a high tier right now even without the need for braindead kill moves. the fact that DHD does massive damage is balanced out with the fact his kill moves take skill and setups to land.

He still needs something a little earlier. If I can land three clean aerials in a row on a someone around 80, I should get a stock. I've pinballed people off a comeback for huge damage, then die to one or two reads.

It's a little frustrating sometimes.

 

[Octagon]

I just want DHD to be buffed in SSB5. He needs reliable kill moves. I love his moveset but they lack the power to kill opponents effectively at 100%. I mean, it seems like DHD is the only character in the game who cannot kill opponents around 100% unless the opponent made a mistake or wasn't paying attention.

Duck Hunt is amazing in this game, its just that not a lot of people use him. Lets hope that changes as the metagame of Smash 4 evolves

 

[Xygonn]

http://pastebin.com/PDtQJDSU

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Bad knockout power.

 

[outfoxd]

Anyone know what frame a can comes out when you kick it? I've been having some success just booting it in someone's face in reaction to an aerial, then when we both get blasted in the same direction nail them with an aerial.

Not the most efficient strategy, but hey, it makes sure the knockback from your aerial has way less to travel to take your new buddy off the blastline.

 

[Funkermonster]

I mean, it seems like DHD is the only character in the game who cannot kill opponents around 100% unless the opponent made a mistake or wasn't paying attention.

*Ahem*

 

[outfoxd]

*Ahem*

At the very least their smashes land if you hit them. Mario has a reliable spike and the headbutt, at least.

 

[Funkermonster]

At the very least their smashes land if you hit them. Mario has a reliable spike and the headbutt, at least.

Lol Mario's spike suck and is telegraphed, , and his other killing moves aren't a whole lot better.

Usmash is very fast, but does not kill very early. Dsmash is in the same boat.

Fsmash is pretty strong, but is hella slow and needs good reads to land it at all.

The others can barely kill below 110% with most any of their moves.

 

[outfoxd]

I just want people to not slip out of smashes because the first shot pushed them out. You almost have to treat DHD smashes like the last shot is the only one to land.

 

[Sean²]

Anyone know what frame a can comes out when you kick it? I've been having some success just booting it in someone's face in reaction to an aerial, then when we both get blasted in the same direction nail them with an aerial.

Not the most efficient strategy, but hey, it makes sure the knockback from your aerial has way less to travel to take your new buddy off the blastline.

Not sure of the frame, but doing that is a good way to get out of combos at low-mid %. Has to be early on because I can blow people up without the animation of kicking the can even starting.

I just want people to not slip out of smashes because the first shot pushed them out. You almost have to treat DHD smashes like the last shot is the only one to land.

I know, right? I set up into a wonderful smash placement and they run in a little further and just get pushed around. Going to have to practice perfect spacing to get that final hit in both charged and uncharged smashes.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I think his strenth is good

I think the big key is his smash attack accuracy is horrible its got to be the 3rd shot for the huge knockback

Also if they dodge/block one of them (not the 3rd) hes open for attack.

 

[Octagon]

I think his strenth is good

I think the big key is his smash attack accuracy is horrible its got to be the 3rd shot for the huge knockback

Also if they dodge/block one of them (not the 3rd) hes open for attack.

Thats the worst when the 3rd shot doesn't connect