Why I'm not an Atheist

[Suntan Luigi]

Are you kidding me? Didn't you just say beauty is subjective? And are you saying there are no beautiful happen-chance things out there to you?

Give me something that is beautiful and orderly that was the product of chance alone. I am saying that there are no beautiful happen-chance things. Also, my faith is not blind faith. I've thought a whole lot about the possibility of God not existing and it doesn't work out in my mind.

EDIT: Yeah, I probably should stop posting. This discussion is going nowhere. Apparently unless I'm prepared to defend all of my views on God to the death I make myself look like an idiot. Well, I'll see you all in the debate hall sometime in the future. It's not like any of you have given me legitimate reasons to not believe in God, so why should I stop?

 

[GwJ]

Give me something that is beautiful and orderly that was the product of chance alone. I am saying that there are no beautiful happen-chance things.

It's not my job to prove the counter-opposition false. It's your job to prove your claim true.

And I DO have an example. You already stated essentially that space is beautiful and orderly. Well, that right there is an example of beauty and order in nature by chance.

Also, my faith is not blind faith. I've thought a whole lot about the possibility of God not existing and it doesn't work out in my mind.

Well, with the logic that all beautiful things must be created by an intelligent being, no wonder you believe in a god.

EDIT: Yeah, I probably should stop posting. This discussion is going nowhere. Apparently unless I'm prepared to defend all of my views on God to the death I make myself look like an idiot. Well, I'll see you all in the debate hall sometime in the future. It's not like any of you have given me legitimate reasons to not believe in God, so why should I stop?

You should be prepared to defend your view if you posit it and we don't agree. If you weren't prepared to back it up, why'd you say it? ESPECIALLY in a religious debate thread.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

It's not my job to prove the counter-opposition false. It's your job to prove your claim true.

And I DO have an example. You already stated essentially that space is beautiful and orderly. Well, that right there is an example of beauty and order in nature by chance.

Actually, the burden of proof is on you to prove that something orderly can be created by chance. I don't see any such examples, you have to show me one. Your example is just begging the question.

 

[Falconv1.0]

EDIT: Yeah, I probably should stop posting. This discussion is going nowhere. Apparently unless I'm prepared to defend all of my views on God to the death I make myself look like an idiot. Well, I'll see you all in the debate hall sometime in the future. It's not like any of you have given me legitimate reasons to not believe in God, so why should I stop?

I never said you shouldn't believe in God, I'm saying your reasoning for it is piss poor ****in' AWFUL. You aren't supposed to "defend them to the death" you need to give us some kind of actual logic not DERP I THINK THIS BECAUSE I SAY SO. BEAUTY. STUFF. YEAH.

I'm not sure how it isn't blind faith to believe beauty must be intelligently designed when there's zero pieces evidence that states that it can't be random.

Man, having thoughts really hurts my brain sometimes.

 

[GwJ]

Actually, the burden of proof is on you to prove that something orderly can be created by chance. I don't see any such examples, you have to show me one. Your example is just begging the question.

Are you saying you disagree with the scientists? People who've spent their lives studying and becoming authorities in the field are WRONG? You, sir, are the one who needs the burden of proof. You're making the claim, not me.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Are you saying you disagree with the scientists? People who've spent their lives studying and becoming authorities in the field are WRONG? You, sir, are the one who needs the burden of proof. You're making the claim, not me.

Science can't explain BEAUTY, MAAAN.

 

[Teran]

It's not my job to prove the counter-opposition false. It's your job to prove your claim true.

And I DO have an example. You already stated essentially that space is beautiful and orderly. Well, that right there is an example of beauty and order in nature by chance.



Well, with the logic that all beautiful things must be created by an intelligent being, no wonder you believe in a god.



You should be prepared to defend your view if you posit it and we don't agree. If you weren't prepared to back it up, why'd you say it? ESPECIALLY in a religious debate thread.

Actually, the burden of proof is on you to prove that something orderly can be created by chance. I don't see any such examples, you have to show me one. Your example is just begging the question.

I never said you shouldn't believe in God, I'm saying your reasoning for it is piss poor ****in' AWFUL. You aren't supposed to "defend them to the death" you need to give us some kind of actual logic not DERP I THINK THIS BECAUSE I SAY SO. BEAUTY. STUFF. YEAH.

I'm not sure how it isn't blind faith to believe beauty must be intelligently designed when there's zero pieces evidence that states that it can't be random.

Man, having thoughts really hurts my brain sometimes.

Are you saying you disagree with the scientists? People who've spent their lives studying and becoming authorities in the field are WRONG? You, sir, are the one who needs the burden of proof. You're making the claim, not me.

Science can't explain BEAUTY, MAAAN.

Stop going in circles kids.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

I never said you shouldn't believe in God, I'm saying your reasoning for it is piss poor ****in' AWFUL. You aren't supposed to "defend them to the death" you need to give us some kind of actual logic not DERP I THINK THIS BECAUSE I SAY SO. BEAUTY. STUFF. YEAH.

I'm not sure how it isn't blind faith to believe beauty must be intelligently designed when there's zero pieces evidence that states that it can't be random.

Man, having thoughts really hurts my brain sometimes.

I dunno. I think the fact that books can't write themselves and buildings can't build themselves is enough evidence to show that that the universe can't create itself. Maybe the main difference in viewpoints is how you interpret those events.

 

[john!]

wait, does this mean that if i'm ugly, that god didn't create me?

 

[Falconv1.0]

I dunno. I think the fact that books can't write themselves and buildings can't build themselves is enough evidence to show that that the universe can't create itself. Maybe the main difference in viewpoints is how you interpret those events.

Alright, I've had enough Fox News for one day.

 

[Teran]

he main difference in viewpoints is how you interpret those events.

That's basically it, this doesn't need to continue.

 

[GwJ]

I dunno. I think the fact that books can't write themselves and buildings can't build themselves is enough evidence to show that that the universe can't create itself. Maybe the main difference in viewpoints is how you interpret those events.

Humans can create other humans.

That's pretty beautiful and orderly.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

That's basically it, this doesn't need to continue.

Great, I'm glad to hear that X_x.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

Humans can create other humans.

That's pretty beautiful and orderly.

What do we mean by "create"? Do we mean design, build? The only human involvement is intercourse. No human designed or built her.

Why can't I stop replying?

 

[Teran]

You definitely shouldn't double post for sure.

 

[GwJ]

What do we mean by "create"? Do we mean design, build? The only human involvement is intercourse. No human designed or built her.

Why can't I stop replying?

So you're using created in the sense that something is being created artificially?

That's good, because I never was arguing about that, so you're still stuck with the burden of proof.

 

[Oasis_S]

I saw an elephant paint a flower once. Is it possible god is an elephant?

 

[GwJ]

That could very well be possible.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Give me something that is beautiful and orderly that was the product of chance alone. I am saying that there are no beautiful happen-chance things.

I find a lot of situations, pictures haphazardly and randomly put together, and tons of things beautiful, in fact, the happen-chance of things can make things beautiful to me.

Don't tell me what I can or cannot find beautiful. >__>

Also, my faith is not blind faith. I've thought a whole lot about the possibility of God not existing and it doesn't work out in my mind.

Let's check that shall we?

But it is one reason I believe in an Ultimate Designer, and nothing will change that. Plus, it is nice to be able to thank someone for all the things I have.

Well, you say here nothing will change it. You also just say it is nice to have something to thank. Blind faith.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

I have other, more logical reasons for believing in a Designer. I don't have the time to debate them all now though, that's why I don't bring them up. Sure, you could call faith based only on that one reason blind. But that's not my only reason I believe in God. For example I think the OP makes a good argument in favor of God.

Also like I said before, a lot of what constitutes order and beauty in this case is open to interpretation. I choose to interpret it in a certain way, and you cannot call my interpretation unjustified any more than I can call yours unjustified. This is why we keep going in circles. I'll make a post later with more concrete and defined terms in the debate hall.

 

[GwJ]

I have other, more logical reasons for believing in a Designer. I don't have the time to debate them all now though, that's why I don't bring them up.

Also like I said before, a lot of what constitutes order and beauty in this case is open to interpretation. I choose to interpret it in a certain way, and you cannot call my interpretation unjustified any more than I can call yours unjustified. This is why we keep going in circles. I'll make a post later with more concrete and defined terms in the debate hall.

It can go many ways because it's a stupid argument. Beauty has no relation to the universe at all.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

Well that's your interpretation. I interpret the universe as beautiful, you don't. Neither view has any logical solid proof. So no one can criticize another's views.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Relying on chance based off a fairly logical belief than given enough time and chances something nice can happen amongst a sea of failures isn't more plausible than "herp it's beautiful so obv it was designed"? All of this of course rests on it being "beautiful" in SL's eyes of course, you know, something that has zero basis in science.

 

[GwJ]

Well that's your interpretation. I interpret the universe as beautiful, you don't. Neither view has any logical solid proof. So no one can criticize another's views.

You don't get it. What I'm saying is beauty doesn't matter. Beauty has nothing to do with what the universe is nor is it a quality of the universe or anything in it necessarily.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

Relying on chance based off a fairly logical belief than given enough time and chances something nice can happen amongst a sea of failures isn't more plausible than "herp it's beautiful so obv it was designed"? All of this of course rests on it being "beautiful" in SL's eyes of course, you know, something that has zero basis in science.

In my eyes, no. To me that's just like saying a book can be written by chance.

You don't get it. What I'm saying is beauty doesn't matter. Beauty has nothing to do with what the universe is nor is it a quality of the universe or anything in it necessarily.

What are you saying here exactly? That beauty does not exist?

 

[Falconv1.0]

In my eyes, no. To me that's just like saying a book can be written by chance.

And I'm saying there's absolutely a chance that if you had enough people writing random letters for a long period of time, you'd have a ****ing book, cuz you know, it makes sense? Say there's a one in a million chance of something happening, well uh, if you give that chance an infinite amount of tries, yeah it's going to happen. You can't just say it's impossible "just cuz" and then substitute with something WITH ZERO ****ING BASIS IN SCIENCE. NO ONE GIVES A **** WHAT IT IS OR ISN'T IN YOUR EYES, IT'S WHAT IS AND ISN'T RELEVANT.

 

[GwJ]

What are you saying here exactly? That beauty does not exist?

That's not what I meant to say, but I agree with that statement. There's no quality that substances inherently have that can classify as beauty. Beauty is how a human perceives something's qualities.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

And I'm saying there's absolutely a chance that if you had enough people writing random letters for a long period of time, you'd have a ****ing book, cuz you know, it makes sense? Say there's a one in a million chance of something happening, well uh, if you give that chance an infinite amount of tries, yeah it's going to happen. You can't just say it's impossible "just cuz" and then substitute with something WITH ZERO ****ING BASIS IN SCIENCE. NO ONE GIVES A **** WHAT IT IS OR ISN'T IN YOUR EYES, IT'S WHAT IS AND ISN'T RELEVANT.

Only in theory though. In practice the numbers get so absurdly large that this never actually happens in real life, has never happened, and could never, ever happen. And you expect me to believe that everything that exists is due to chance? Give me a break.

That's not what I meant to say, but I agree with that statement. There's no quality that substances inherently have that can classify as beauty. Beauty is how a human perceives something's qualities.

Let's back up a bit. I stand by my original statement that because books don't write themselves and buildings don't build themselves it shows that the universe could not have created itself.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Only in theory though. In practice the numbers get so absurdly large that this never actually happens in real life, has never happened, and could never, ever happen. And you expect me to believe that everything that exists is due to chance? Give me a break.

You didn't actually refute what I just said I hope you realize this. Your whole "beauty=God" argument has already been refuted seeing how beauty has literally nothing to do with anything except, you know, personal tastes.

Just Saiyan.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

You didn't actually refute what I just said I hope you realize this. Your whole "beauty=God" argument has already been refuted seeing how beauty has literally nothing to do with anything except, you know, personal tastes.

Just Saiyan.

In the book example I am arguing about order and complexity, not beauty. An orderly book cannot be written by chance. Forget about beauty for now.

 

[GwJ]

Let's back up a bit. I stand by my original statement that because books don't write themselves and buildings don't build themselves it shows that the universe could not have created itself.

The problem is we know books and buildings are man-made because we've seen men make them. We have not seen anything make a non-made-made object.

Further, the creation of books and buildings is out of existing material, not nothing. You're proposing something in an entirely different class.

Which you still haven't backed up, mind you.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

The problem is we know books and buildings are man-made because we've seen men make them. We have not seen anything make a non-made-made object.

This is irrelevant to the principle. I have never seen the pyramids of Egypt built but I could look at them and immediately tell they were the work of man. Likewise it not necessary to see God creating something with your own eyes, you can see His works all around you.

Further, the creation of books and buildings is out of existing material, not nothing. You're proposing something in an entirely different class

So then you agree that is is improbable that a book cannot have a writer, yet you suggest that it is probable that all of reality, which came from nothing, may not have a "Writer"?

 

[Falconv1.0]

Head fell off again.

Oh God someone help me find it please.

 

[GwJ]

This is irrelevant to the principle. I have never seen the pyramids of Egypt built but I could look at them and immediately tell they were the work of man. Likewise it not necessary to see God creating something with your own eyes, you can see His works all around you.

building [bil-ding]  
Example Sentences Origin
build·ing   [bil-ding] Show IPA
noun
1.
a relatively permanent enclosed construction over a plot of land, having a roof and usually windows and often more than one level, used for any of a wide variety of activities, as living, entertaining, or manufacturing.
2.
anything built or constructed.
3.
the act, business, or practice of constructing houses, office buildings, etc.


A pyramid falls under the definition of building. Buildings are explicitly man-made. And we know these are man-made based on written record and relations between other buildings.

So then you agree that is is improbable that a book cannot have a writer, yet you suggest that it is probable that all of reality, which came from nothing, may not have a "Writer"?

We know books have writers because we know where books come from. Are you suggesting you know where the universe came from?









BY THE WAY LUIGI, WATCH THIS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S4F1czs2tk

 

[Falconv1.0]

I feel like he took my whole point about a book being randomly made by randomly throw words around and missed it by like 30 miles, so somehow I doubt he's going to get your point either.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Yes, the fact we are here is chance. What is so impossible about that? The universe for we all know is endless, our circumstances would bound to show up at some point. Our galaxy isn't even perfectly built, there are still flaws with how things are built. I doubt God would make an "imperfect" galaxy to house his specially built humans.

Edit: CALM DOWN FALCON!

 

[Falconv1.0]

Yes, the fact we are here is chance. What is so impossible about that? The universe for we all know is endless, our circumstances would bound to show up at some point. Our galaxy isn't even perfectly built, there are still flaws with how things are built. I doubt God would make an "imperfect" galaxy to house his specially built humans.

This.

Edit: CALM DOWN FALCON!

NO. YOU CALM DOWN! >:[

FACK.

 

[Suntan Luigi]

Head fell off again.

Oh God someone help me find it please.

Forget you, you rude, ridiculing man.

building [bil-ding]  
Example Sentences Origin
build·ing   [bil-ding] Show IPA
noun
1.
a relatively permanent enclosed construction over a plot of land, having a roof and usually windows and often more than one level, used for any of a wide variety of activities, as living, entertaining, or manufacturing.
2.
anything built or constructed.
3.
the act, business, or practice of constructing houses, office buildings, etc.


A pyramid falls under the definition of building. Buildings are explicitly man-made. And we know these are man-made based on written record and relations between other buildings. We know books have writers because we know where books come from. Are you suggesting you know where the universe came from?

I have never seen the universe being created. But I can infer that it has a Creator, because I have never seen a book write itself, so why should a universe create itself?

BY THE WAY LUIGI, WATCH THIS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S4F1czs2tk

Well, what I could gather is that he says terms like "complexity" and "order" are just as arbitrary as "beauty". That just brings us right back to my point that it depends on how you see the universe.

Maybe a better argument would be the argument from first cause. Both of us can agree that reality (time and space) exists. To think that reality came from chance, to me, is ludicrous. With this point it doesn't matter whether you think the universe is beautiful or orderly.

Yes, the fact we are here is chance. What is so impossible about that? The universe for we all know is endless, our circumstances would bound to show up at some point. Our galaxy isn't even perfectly built, there are still flaws with how things are built. I doubt God would make an "imperfect" galaxy to house his specially built humans.

Edit: CALM DOWN FALCON!

Our universe is not endless, it is impossible for it to be endless. Think about it, it is unimaginable.

 

[GwJ]

Luigi, you're going in circles. If I wasn't watching a hilariously perverted anime right now, I'd be getting frustrated.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Unimaginable=impossible?

Wait so it's impossible for something to be endless but it's possible for a super deity to be created by ****ing nothing to create us?

I don't....what?