Why does Meteor Cancelling exist?

[Kaishin]

So, there are these moves, called meteor smashes, that send an opponent downward at various speeds. For some odd reason, Nintendo gave players the option of instantly not dying from these moves by mashing up b on the controller (or other ways, for characters like Yoshi). What's the point of having 0 degree downward attacks meant to KO if there's a mechanic in place to prevent them from doing just that?

You can do this with no other move in the game (to my knowledge) and even if there is a corner case there most certainly isn't another archetype of move that can have its hitstun cancelled.

I feel like Smash 4 got this right when they removed it entirely, making every meteor smash a spike.

I'm asking this here instead of Melee because Project M was created with competitive in mind instead of casual. The producers of Project M also chose to deliberately keep this whereas Melee was the first game to have it. I'm hoping some game designers here can shine some light on this.

 

[trash?]

just to keep in mind: meteor cancelling in PM isn't like melee's. it scales depending on how much damage you've taken (so higher % = the longer it takes for you to meteor cancel), and you can mash jump to meteor cancel, unlike in melee where it was always at the same frame and you failed meteor cancelling if you timed it too early. this makes meteors less immediately useless off-stage, and moreso just turns them into tamer spikes with a straight-down angle

 

[Kaishin]

I see they arrived at the same conclusion I did. Still, their implementation seems... weird, especially for the design they were going for. They made it easier when complex mechanics were an objective in the design (to my knowledge, anyway). No complaints about that, though (=D).

Back on topic, it's nice that it scales with % like everything else, but it's still a bizarre feature to leave in the game. It changes a stupid mechanic into simply a convoluted one, but what exactly is so wrong with Ganondorf (or Falcon or the 'Zard) being able to taser stomp someone to death at low percents?

Clearly they didn't have a problem with Falco keeping his most amazing kill option (and Marth keeping his), so why not just give those characters actual spikes? Character identity certainly warrants it. If one of the three mentioned characters does their clearly powerful-looking dair on you, you shouldn't be able to recover from it, even at low percents.

 

[Ripple]

just to keep in mind: meteor cancelling in PM isn't like melee's. it scales depending on how much damage you've taken

What? No it doesn't. It is a 16 frame window rather than melee s 8 frame window. Strong bad said this numerous times during 3.02 recoverocalypse

 

[Naggy]

What? No it doesn't. It is a 16 frame window rather than melee s 8 frame window. Strong bad said this numerous times during 3.02 recoverocalypse

Exactly. The reason they changed it to 16 frames from 8 is because pmbr couldn't figure out how to program in a fail window for mashing jump or up b too early making meteor canceling brain-dead easy, so the 16 frame window is a temporary work-around to make it a little more difficult to recover. I'm pretty sure the intention is still to make meteor canceling melee exact as soon as coding allows for it.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

What a minute. This is all messed up and backwards. PM does have a fail window for meteor cancelling. I'm not sure exactly how many frames you have to wait but I tested it and if I attempted to meteor cancel before the 16 frame window then I wasn't able to meteor cancel by at least frame 20. On the flip side Melee does not have a fail window for meteor cancelling. When I tested it I was able to literally spam jump inputs every other frame and was able to jump as soon as the 8 frame window had passed.

So in short; PM - 16 frames until you can meteor cancel, mashing no good. Melee - 8 frames until you can meteor cancel, mashing OK.

 

[Ripple]

in PM you can mash up-b because no penalty, you can't mash jump because of penalty

 

[Stride]

in PM you can mash up-b because no penalty, you can't mash jump because of penalty

Does the penalty apply to all meteor cancel attempts, or just meteor cancel attempts with jump (i.e. can you try to jump too early and still be able to up-B afterwards)?

 

[Kidneyjoe]

It appears to only apply to meteor cancel attempts with jumps. I jumped during the fail window but was still able to up b after 16 frames.

 

[Bleck]

it should just work like it does in smash 4

 

[Kaishin]

I'm surprised I haven't gotten a definitive answer for this. I wonder if the PM devs actually have one.

 

[Bleck]

fireball stars will probably eventually come in here and write four paragraphs that vaguely imply that they kept it that way because that's how it was in melee and then someone will lock the thread after I cause a huge stink about it

 

[ShadowShlong]

Why would you have a problem with meteor cancelling? it's similar to a combo break, and since spikes are typically harder to land than say, ness' frame 4 or 5 dair, it only makes sense that something so easy to land not be able to kill you at 5% because you couldn't meteor cancel it. Meteor cancelling makes it so it's hard to die at low precents to most meteors, as it should. But if you're at over 100%, you'll still probably die due to the window being later, as it should.
In smash 4 all meteors/spikes are a lot harder to land for various reasons (multiple air dodges, slow startup, low hitstun, etc.) so they need to be more rewarding.

 

[Kaishin]

Note that I don't play or watch much PM. All of the following is from Melee experiences, without the exception of the part involving Charizard. Anyway...

Are they really harder to land? Take a good hard look at Fox's shine or Falco's dair and tell me if they are particularly hard to land. Fox's shine in Melee very easily edgeguards most offstage opponents without ****all amazing recoveries like Pikachu or Samus. And Falco's dair is a combo finisher on a character who has very, very little trouble setting up combos on anyone not named Jigglypuff. Marth's dair is also a good example, seeing as how it is almost always used at the end of a combo or as a suicidal ending kill.

So what's so wrong with the Captain or 'Zard having those same abilities? Their meteors are definitely more difficult to land. And I'm not just throwing this out there in hopes that you'll believe it. That point isn't even debatable. The ease of which Fox and Falco can edgeguard with their spikes and in Falco's case, combo into it, is a huge part of the reason they're considered the best characters in Melee.

 

[CORY]

look at the total frame commitment attached to the character's. that's what the original intent of spike vs meteor is (in sakurai land, at least, and this is taking that basic setup) [and fox's shine isn't a spike or a meteor. it doesn't send out at a downwards angle, it's just very low].

falco's dair has to be used either on stage or as you use a jump getting back on stage. kind of the same with marth's dair. most spikes have a significant end lag, making them not really usable in standard offstage gameplay.

the other part is, most meteors are A LOT more powerful than spikes. if you couldn't meteor cancel them, you would die even earlier than falco's dair could begin to pretend to kill you. but, lowering their power then makes them less useful onstage, due to how meteoring someone into the stage works (giving 80% of the knockback, but full hitstun).

it can be argued that some meteors *coughfalcondaircough* are a bit too good with regards to onstage usage, in that regard, but all of that is the rationale behind the spike vs meteor functionality differences.

 

[1FD]

This explains SO MUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH
Ultron loves meteors
Game has meteors
Game too good to be made by just people
Ultron isn't people
Ultron is super program thing
Ultron made Melee
Ultron found way into Brawl
Ultron made PM

 

[DrinkingFood]

What a minute. This is all messed up and backwards. PM does have a fail window for meteor cancelling. I'm not sure exactly how many frames you have to wait but I tested it and if I attempted to meteor cancel before the 16 frame window then I wasn't able to meteor cancel by at least frame 20. On the flip side Melee does not have a fail window for meteor cancelling. When I tested it I was able to literally spam jump inputs every other frame and was able to jump as soon as the 8 frame window had passed.

So in short; PM - 16 frames until you can meteor cancel, mashing no good. Melee - 8 frames until you can meteor cancel, mashing OK.

Actually mashing doesn't work in melee either, but the fail window is so small you could easily mash and accidentally miss it.



But I think meteor canceling is dumb and a hype killer. Without meteor canceling, there's a better balance between the value of meteor angles (within 10 degrees of straight down) and spike angles (anything else that is downward)- spikes combo slightly worse because the steeper angle means they send farther away with DI, but they send further out and are harder to recover from (at the low percents where recovery is possible) and can't be DI'd into a wall usually for a tech, plus they can kill from slightly on stage and above it. So spikes are best for killing. Meteors on the other hand are better combo tools because they can't be DI'd far in either direction, but they don't send offstage from onstage unless the opponent DIs that way, and they can also be DI'd into a wall in the right scenario. Meteors also kill off the top earlier given the same strength, since they send straight up on a grounded opponent. Falco's spike being excessively godly at both comboing and killing is more a result of its other stats being stupid, for example lingering for ages, having a weak and strong hit, and covering his whole body.